On-board regulator for V2

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robertopisa

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On-board regulator for V2
« on: 1 Feb 2015, 08:27 pm »
Thanks Morten for your fairness. This is part of the research that makes interesting the job. There is always something to learn.

As for the quality of V2 board, to be honest, I am already satisfied, and friends with more expensive preamps agree with me when listening. So maybe I will consider a future version V2.2 :)

Maybe the only thing that one day I would like to replace is the switching regulator on the board. Which pinout is it using? Positive LM317/LM1117 or positive LM78xx/LM340 pinout (500mA)? Have you any suggestions? I enjoyed to be a DIYer, and this is the last thing that I would like to try.

Cheers
Roberto

We ran into a surprising finding with our original concept of a 6 layered board for the V2.1. Unfortunately we did not fully discover this until we'd gone through not only 1 but 2 iterations of production boards (ouch!). Simply put, the 6 layer board didn't sound good enough. In fact it was a step backwards. So after puzzling over that with extensive testing and listening I finally concluded there's no way we're going to proceed with an inferior board. 

The good news is as a result of all the development work over the past 3 months we discovered numerous ways of improving on the existing V2 platform through a combination changes in certain hardware components together with substantial changes in the software. Thus the final V2.1 has achieved our ultimate goal of an improved LDR3x, just not the way we had originally anticipated.

tortugaranger

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #1 on: 2 Feb 2015, 01:10 pm »
Maybe the only thing that one day I would like to replace is the switching regulator on the board. Which pinout is it using? Positive LM317/LM1117 or positive LM78xx/LM340 pinout (500mA)? Have you any suggestions? I enjoyed to be a DIYer, and this is the last thing that I would like to try.

Cheers
Roberto

The original V1 board used the linear (and very low cost) LM7805. Based on some testing done by customers and verified by us, we switched to the current switch mode dc-dc regulator because it provided lower noise and superior performance but at a high price of roughly 20x the LM7805. Any regulator with a 78xx pin-out will fit. The 317/1117 would require an adapter or wiring gymnastics. As to what is ultimately the better or best solution remains to be seen in my view. Two approaches we have on our "to try" list includes powering the board via an external super-regulator and also with battery power. When we do get around to trying those I'll make sure to post the results.

Cheers,
Morten

robertopisa

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #2 on: 2 Feb 2015, 01:27 pm »
Thanks Morten, very helpful, as usual :)
Bests
-Roberto

robertopisa

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #3 on: 6 Feb 2015, 10:03 pm »
Hello Morten, I saw your post on power supply in http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132312.0
To continue the discussion on experimenting, are the DC-DC regulators on the V2 board for 12V in -> 5V out?

Thanks
-Roberto

The original V1 board used the linear (and very low cost) LM7805. Based on some testing done by customers and verified by us, we switched to the current switch mode dc-dc regulator because it provided lower noise and superior performance but at a high price of roughly 20x the LM7805. Any regulator with a 78xx pin-out will fit. The 317/1117 would require an adapter or wiring gymnastics. As to what is ultimately the better or best solution remains to be seen in my view. Two approaches we have on our "to try" list includes powering the board via an external super-regulator and also with battery power. When we do get around to trying those I'll make sure to post the results.

Cheers,
Morten

tortugaranger

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #4 on: 7 Feb 2015, 03:29 am »
Hello Morten, I saw your post on power supply in http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132312.0
To continue the discussion on experimenting, are the DC-DC regulators on the V2 board for 12V in -> 5V out?

Thanks
-Roberto

Yes the on board dc-dc regulator converts incoming voltage to 5 VDC used  by processor, eeprom, dac chips and ultimately control voltage to the LDRs. These regulators can handle between 9-36 V input and being switch mode are highly efficient and generate next to no heat. Their nominal spec is +/- 10 mv noise but in practice it's a bit more than this and most of that is well above 100 kHz.

robertopisa

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #5 on: 7 Feb 2015, 10:46 am »
I appreciate that you share your knowledge with us, thanks.
-R

Yes the on board dc-dc regulator converts incoming voltage to 5 VDC used  by processor, eeprom, dac chips and ultimately control voltage to the LDRs. These regulators can handle between 9-36 V input and being switch mode are highly efficient and generate next to no heat. Their nominal spec is +/- 10 mv noise but in practice it's a bit more than this and most of that is well above 100 kHz.

justubes

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #6 on: 10 Feb 2015, 07:25 am »
If we fed a cleaner 12v like a paul hynes or teddy psu. Will the effect of low noise be negated by these 5v regulators, good as they may, is not the lowest noise regs currently available to acheive the lowest noise possible?

tortugaranger

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #7 on: 10 Feb 2015, 02:48 pm »
If we fed a cleaner 12v like a paul hynes or teddy psu. Will the effect of low noise be negated by these 5v regulators, good as they may, is not the lowest noise regs currently available to acheive the lowest noise possible?

While I generally subscribe to the maxim that better/quieter power supplies means better audio performance, I'm of the view that this may not apply unequivocally to LDR preamps.

Lets unpack that.

The Tortuga LDR preamp design utilizes 2 overlapping circuits. The primary control circuit is an open loop circuit that regulates voltage to the LDRs in order to set their resistance level. That control circuit does not electrically interact with the audio signal. What we're actually controlling is the brightness level of an LED which in turn is optically coupled with a photoresistor (the definition of an LDR or optocoupler). The control signal is steady state DC except when volume level is changed when there's a smoothed out step change. The reaction time of photoresistors is not instantaneous therefore LDRs act as low pass filters. Upstream the control signal is itself filtered with a knee of just a few Hz. So lots of boring steady state DC. I submit that when this circuit is powered from a source with roughly 10-20 mv of ripple most of which is well over 100 kHz that further improvements in this power source is unlikely to improve audio performance. Can I prove that? No. But that is the current state of the design with the existing 5 V switching DC-DC regulator.

The second circuit is the auto-cal circuit which overlaps with the control circuit but is otherwise isolated from the control circuit during normal operation. During auto-cal, these circuits operate in a closed loop fashion. This closed loop involves DACs, op amps and ADCs. It's a closed loop control, measurement and calibration system that acutally measures the resistance of the LDRs. It is far more sensitive to noise than the regular open loop volume control circuit. As I recently discovered, feeding the LDR3x.V2.1 board with crappy wall-wart power did noticeably impair the functioning of the auto-cal process. As a result, we've changed to a superior regulated linear wall-wart power supply for our LDR3.V2 and V2K preamp products. Our LDRx/LDRxB products use an internal hybrid switch mode 12 VDC supply which is extremely clean and comparable to to the regulated linear wall-warts. Roughly 20 mv ripple/noise on a 12 V signal. Ultimately the auto-cal circuit is the limiting factor in how precise we can match left/right channel attenuation which impacts sound stage and stereo imaging. Further improvements in power supply for this function may be worth exploring.

Best,  :thumb:
Morten

robertopisa

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #8 on: 10 Feb 2015, 11:08 pm »
Do the existing 5 V switching DC-DC regulators operate also on the second circuit, the auto-cal circuit?
-R

tortugaranger

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Re: On-board regulator for V2
« Reply #9 on: 10 Feb 2015, 11:27 pm »
Do the existing 5 V switching DC-DC regulators operate also on the second circuit, the auto-cal circuit?
-R

The existing 5 V reg provides the 5 V used by the both the primary control circuit and the auto-calibration circuit. The incoming ~12 DC (from whatever external PS you are using) powers the op-amps in both circuits but I believe the auto-cal buffer op-amp is most sensitive to this since it's the one "seeing" the resistance (voltage drop) across the LDRs during auto-cal.

Said differently if the 12 V external were as good a quality as the on board 5 V switching DC-DC the board, the auto-cal loop is happy.  :D