Proper set up for WG speakers

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harley52

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Proper set up for WG speakers
« on: 10 Apr 2014, 10:27 pm »
I came across this article about a year ago, just before I purchased my speakers. It's the reason I ultimately decided on them......a sweetspot that can be adjusted for size :thumb:. Thought someone may find it helpful for truly understanding the proper way of setting up waveguide speakers and how versatile they are in set up.

www.libinst.com/PublicArticle/Setup%20of%20wg%20Speakers.pdf

I don't know why the link won't work from here but, it works fine when I try it elsewhere. Sorry gang.

AKLegal

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rajacat

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #2 on: 10 Apr 2014, 11:02 pm »
I came across this article about a year ago, just before I purchased my speakers. It's the reason I ultimately decided on them......a sweetspot that can be adjusted for size :thumb:. Thought someone may find it helpful for truly understanding the proper way of setting up waveguide speakers and how versatile they are in set up.

www.libinst.com/PublicArticle/Setup%20of%20wg%20Speakers.pdf

I don't know why the link won't work from here but, it works fine when I try it elsewhere. Sorry gang.

Why don't you post this topic in the Enclosures circle instead of here?

mlundy57

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #3 on: 11 Apr 2014, 02:45 am »
While it may not seem the best fit on the surface, it could prove serendipitous. I had never heard this, in fact had no understanding of waveguides and their function/use, and I think at least one of the new designs Danny is working on has a waveguide so this thread may prove timely.

Mike

harley52

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #4 on: 11 Apr 2014, 05:58 am »
AKLegal,

 Thanks, that works better.

Rajacat,

 Not trying to be hardheaded but, what does the set up of WG speakers have to do with enclosures. Educate me please. :green:

rajacat

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #5 on: 11 Apr 2014, 06:21 am »
I think that "enclosures" means box speakers in general. I thought that that your topic would be more suited for that circle. I don't believe that GR offers any waveguide speakers at this time.

BTW WG speakers are usually set up cross firing at 45 degrees to an area just in front of the listening position. This heavy toe-in creates a large sweet spot enhanced by the controlled directivity.

ed. I just read the updated link.  :duh:

tasar

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #6 on: 15 Apr 2014, 10:14 pm »
I think that "enclosures" means box speakers in general. I thought that that your topic would be more suited for that circle. I don't believe that GR offers any waveguide speakers at this time.

BTW WG speakers are usually set up cross firing at 45 degrees to an area just in front of the listening position. This heavy toe-in creates a large sweet spot enhanced by the controlled directivity.

ed. I just read the updated link.  :duh:

Harley, great point re Waveguides. Responder above must have missed class when the "V" series were discussed. Ummmmm, coax drivers are "waveguides". My Super Vs are toed 9" on a 8' listening field. As OBs, they are out 8 1/2' from front wall ! Danny would applaud this. With a 13' axial length the stage, depth, and imaging are incredible. As important, the Dynamics are vastly improved and shared equally across a 7' couch. Most profound are wide field rendering of often constricted classical stage. Here, I'll put the Vs up against most anything and don't even get me going on bass. Thanks for the link Harley, it's a read most should benefit from. Simple but profound! Here's hoping Danny can mix it up with Bob Smith, waveguides' best friend.

Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #7 on: 16 Apr 2014, 04:18 pm »
Guys, in reality it really doesn't work like they illustrate.

A wave guide design is said to have a controlled dispersion much like illustrated. However, that is only true within a limited frequency range that is effected by the horn. As frequency decreases the pattern becomes omni directional just like any other speaker.

mlundy57

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #8 on: 16 Apr 2014, 04:52 pm »
Guys, in reality it really doesn't work like they illustrate.

A wave guide design is said to have a controlled dispersion much like illustrated. However, that is only true within a limited frequency range that is effected by the horn. As frequency decreases the pattern becomes omni directional just like any other speaker.

So if you set a waveguide speaker up with extreme toe to get the smoothest response out of the horn do you mess up the response of the other drivers?

Mike

Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #9 on: 16 Apr 2014, 05:41 pm »
So if you set a waveguide speaker up with extreme toe to get the smoothest response out of the horn do you mess up the response of the other drivers?

Mike

It doesn't really change anything in the lower ranges at all. And the on axis response is usually just as smooth as the off axis with the horn loaded driver. In fact the extreme toe in only minimizes the side wall reflections in the top octave.

Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #10 on: 16 Apr 2014, 05:46 pm »
Another problem that is always overlooked by these guys is that the biggest reflection point in the room is typically not the side walls. It's the ceiling. And you want just as smooth and even response in vertical off axis response as well as the horizontal off axis response.

rajacat

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #11 on: 16 Apr 2014, 06:00 pm »

Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #12 on: 16 Apr 2014, 06:30 pm »
That one has pretty good vertical off axis too. The low crossover point or low extension of the wave guide really helps. What really hurts is the added center to center distance in most designs. The stretched out graph on that one is so big that it makes it look a bit artificially good in a way. It measures okay though. 4kHz to 5.5kHz drops 5db though. And from between 15kHz and 20kHz there isn't anything even in the on axis. And that's where your spacial cues come from. And what is happening below 1kHz? Where is the output down low? Is this a tweeter in a wave guide only?

Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #13 on: 16 Apr 2014, 06:40 pm »
Here is a comparative that will put a little meat on this.

Here are two speakers. One uses an 8" woofer and a tweeter in a large wave guide. The other uses a 6.5" woofer and a Neo tweeter. Compare horizontal and vertical off axis measurements.

Speaker 1: Horizontal


Vertical


Speaker 2: Horizontal


Vertical


Now imagine towing the speakers in 30 degrees (green line on both speakers). Are they really different? Did the wave guide change the dispersion in a significant way? Not really...

tasar

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #14 on: 16 Apr 2014, 07:37 pm »
One would expect similar responses, but that's not the point. Harley's intent was to exploit the waveguides directive energy such that multiple listeners enjoy a similar sound field. Though toeing works in this regard with any speaker, doing so mitigates the lopsided drowning affect listeners, to your left and right, suffer while looking down the barrel of a waveguide. Sitting side by side has it's merits !

rajacat

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #15 on: 16 Apr 2014, 08:02 pm »
That one has pretty good vertical off axis too. The low crossover point or low extension of the wave guide really helps. What really hurts is the added center to center distance in most designs. The stretched out graph on that one is so big that it makes it look a bit artificially good in a way. It measures okay though. 4kHz to 5.5kHz drops 5db though. And from between 15kHz and 20kHz there isn't anything even in the on axis. And that's where your spacial cues come from. And what is happening below 1kHz? Where is the output down low? Is this a tweeter in a wave guide only?

Those measurements are for just the waveguide and compression driver. No crossover, no smoothing, driven via 100uF series cap. The high freq. rolloff  could probably be mitigated by using a beryllium compression driver. In reality most who have heard this setup don't notice the rolloff. A supertweeter could help too. The waveguide was never intended for full range use. Most will use a quality 15" pro midwoofer such as the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. You can get full range with this combo in a ported box. If you choose a sealed enclosure, a sub or a swarm of subs is required.
There are also 18" and 24" versions available which will lower the crossover point to the woofer for more of a point source feel.


tasar

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Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #16 on: 16 Apr 2014, 08:09 pm »
Those measurements are for just the waveguide and compression driver. No crossover, no smoothing, driven via 100uF series cap. The high freq. rolloff  could probably be mitigated by using a beryllium compression driver. In reality most who have heard this setup don't notice the rolloff. A supertweeter could help too. The waveguide was never intended for full range use. Most will use a quality 15" pro midwoofer such as the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. You can get full range with this combo in a ported box. If you choose a sealed enclosure, a sub or a swarm of subs is required.
There are also 18" and 24" versions available which will lower the crossover point to the woofer for more of a point source feel.


Could you tell us where/who we could find above, implemented. ? Really off topic, sorry.


Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #18 on: 16 Apr 2014, 09:40 pm »
One would expect similar responses, but that's not the point. Harley's intent was to exploit the waveguides directive energy such that multiple listeners enjoy a similar sound field. Though toeing works in this regard with any speaker, doing so mitigates the lopsided drowning affect listeners, to your left and right, suffer while looking down the barrel of a waveguide. Sitting side by side has it's merits !

Yep, I get it. Works well, but only in the upper ranges where the wave guide is handling the output. In ranges below 800Hz or so they behave much like any other speaker.

Danny Richie

Re: Proper set up for WG speakers
« Reply #19 on: 16 Apr 2014, 09:45 pm »
Those measurements are for just the waveguide and compression driver. No crossover, no smoothing, driven via 100uF series cap. The high freq. rolloff  could probably be mitigated by using a beryllium compression driver. In reality most who have heard this setup don't notice the rolloff. A supertweeter could help too. The waveguide was never intended for full range use. Most will use a quality 15" pro midwoofer such as the Acoustic Elegance TD15M. You can get full range with this combo in a ported box. If you choose a sealed enclosure, a sub or a swarm of subs is required.
There are also 18" and 24" versions available which will lower the crossover point to the woofer for more of a point source feel.

That's what I thought.

Actually the network can pull down the lower range making a flat response out of it with no drop off in the highs at all.

Super tweeters are actually quite tricky. They can easily cancel on axis response and cause bigger holes in the response then without them. They work well facing to the rear or facing up though.

15" woofer? Eeeek!

And while the vertical off axis that you posted looks real good, that is typically not the problem I see. It's when it is crossed over to a woofer that time delay issues come up in the vertical off axis between the two drivers that cause holes in the response.