[macrojack]

Totoro - I'm too lazy and perhaps too inept to adequately convey my point. Consider how many car companies, oil companies, media conglomerates, etc., etc., etc. we now have left. Most industries are now consolidated to the brink of monopoly.

The fact that a minuscule breach has occurred in the area of self-published music doesn't contradict any of this. The wealth has migrated more to the wealthy every year for some three decades now. Mergers and acquisitions continue apace. Poor little T-Mobile is perpetually fighting for its life.

The clock is ticking. The screws are turning. Please convince me that the end result will be good for the average person. I want to believe that but can't find the salve of contradiction anywhere. What happens if we wake up one morning and find we have no internet access?
That would leave us with nothing but Newspeak.

[totoro]

Totoro - I'm too lazy and perhaps too inept to adequately convey my point. Consider how many car companies, oil companies, media conglomerates, etc., etc., etc. we now have left. Most industries are now consolidated to the brink of monopoly.

The fact that a minuscule breach has occurred in the area of self-published music doesn't contradict any of this. The wealth has migrated more to the wealthy every year for some three decades now. Mergers and acquisitions continue apace. Poor little T-Mobile is perpetually fighting for its life.

The clock is ticking. The screws are turning. Please convince me that the end result will be good for the average person. I want to believe that but can't find the salve of contradiction anywhere. What happens if we wake up one morning and find we have no internet access?
That would leave us with nothing but Newspeak.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But the way I read your post made me think you were saying that the state of the music industry was somehow an example of all of this, and I couldn't understand that.

The internet censorship law thing is definitely scary. But if they weren't using piracy as an excuse to clamp down, many of the same people would be using the old "protect the children" line: we need to clamp down on the internet to eliminate online kiddie porn. Or maybe: those internet people don't pay any taxes: let's shut them down. Or whatever. The piracy thing is just an excuse.

Unfortunately, in order to discuss what policy changes helped to make all of this happen, and what changes could be made to ameliorate the situation now, we would have to delve into politics, which is a no-no on this forum (which is after all an audio forum ).

[macrojack]

Totoro- You can forget policy changes. We're past that now. The die is cast. The other shoe already has fallen - we're now waiting for it to hit the floor.

Unless there is a massive shift in public opinion and the means to bring change through force, it's all over for American labor. Everything you buy including housing will reach you with the same kind of pricing as a hot dog at the ballpark once this thing plays out.

[totoro]

Totoro- You can forget policy changes. We're past that now. The die is cast. The other shoe already has fallen - we're now waiting for it to hit the floor.

Unless there is a massive shift in public opinion and the means to bring change through force, it's all over for American labor. Everything you buy including housing will reach you with the same kind of pricing as a hot dog at the ballpark once this thing plays out.

It's an interesting topic, and I'd like to discuss it _but_ this would definitely get this thread shutdown, and I bet I'd get myself banned.

[Diamond Dog]

More live music as a result of the collapse of the current system would be a huge improvement, IMO.  Especially if it results in more shows and less expensive ticket prices, that's a double bonus.

Buuuuut the artists increase their touring and their ticket prices in order to try to make up the revenue lost through reduced music sales. And replace " record company" with " Ticketmaster" and stir that into the mix as well. Now concert attendance is dropping off like music sales did. And for that matter, the record labels have been dipping their beaks into the live music end of the business as well. What a cluster#@%$ this whole bloody thing has become. 

D.D.

[totoro]

Buuuuut the artists increase their touring and their ticket prices in order to try to make up the revenue lost through reduced music sales. And replace " record company" with " Ticketmaster" and stir that into the mix as well. Now concert attendance is dropping off like music sales did. And for that matter, the record labels have been dipping their beaks into the live music end of the business as well. What a cluster#@%$ this whole bloody thing has become. 

D.D.

Yes, cartels are ugly. Seems like Ticketmaster has enough of a monopoly that they could be broken up under anti-trust law. I listen mostly to jazz and classical music, so they don't really affect me much, but they seem pretty toxic.

[Lyndon]

Ticketmaster and their ilk would not be so bad, but they keep adding to their BS fees.

Someone previously mentioned greed, and that with shady business practices, payola anyone, has added bad feelings with the public into the mix.  I lost a lot of respect with the record companies, when I was taping my virgin vinyl albums in the 70's onto TDK cassettes, and the record companies wanted to stop that right away.  Same old going on today.  You paid an inflated price on that cd?  How dare you to make digital copies for your portable player and car.  Let's sign this band, pay them a large advance, but we'll take out heavy kickbacks in their initial touring, record royalties, and merchandise.  Business as usual.
In Salt Lake City, I can still go see second tier concerts for a pretty good price...$14 for Chuck Prophet last Friday, but at the same time, we get Miranda Lambert at the worst acoustic venue, and prices started at $28 for the nosebleed seats.  Please!
And now a break from this, Jack White demonstrates something you won't want to copy. The Triple Decker Record! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ3c3WZ-3UU

[TONEPUB]

What planet are you guys on?  The artists never made a significant amount of their revenue from album sales, ever.  Even in the heyday of the record biz, only a few artists that sold multi platinum records made much $$ from record sales.  The best/biggest artists like U2, Michael Jackson, the Stones, Bruce Springsteen were getting about $1 - maybe $1.50 an album as royalties.  Most artists were in the .30 -.50/per range and a lot of small artists got even less, especially if they gave away their publishing rights, which many did just to get a recording contract.

Profitable artists always made their money on tour.  Anyone from either side of the music business will tell you that.

The record labels aren't getting rich on touring, it's the guys like Ticketmaster that are taking huge percentages, and the fact that so many boomer bands have such huge insurance riders to amortize.  That's what's driving ticket prices up and at a certain point, the market just says no.

You won't see less expensive ticket prices unless you can break the two or three big promoters and that's highly unlikely to happen as they all have a big stake in the places that they play.  If you want to dump Ticketron, that means you don't access to the large acts that keep your venue alive.  If you can't book Coldplay, etc and pack the house 10 times a year, you can't stay alive on the smaller bands that will sell have the arena if you're lucky.

[Diamond Dog]

Ticketmaster and their ilk would not be so bad, but they keep adding to their BS fees.

It's worse than just the ridiculous fee gouging. They also have an iron grip on many venues so if you don't hook up with them, you can go play in a cornfield on the outskirts of town. Remember when Pearl Jam tried taking those bastards on?
The latest is the way that whole blocks of tickets for high-interest shows get snapped up by TM affiliates who then scalp them for way way way above face value. Problem is, people actually sustain that BS by willingly paying the juiced-up prices.

D.D.

[totoro]

What planet are you guys on?  The artists never made a significant amount of their revenue from album sales, ever.  Even in the heyday of the record biz, only a few artists that sold multi platinum records made much $$ from record sales.  The best/biggest artists like U2, Michael Jackson, the Stones, Bruce Springsteen were getting about $1 - maybe $1.50 an album as royalties.  Most artists were in the .30 -.50/per range and a lot of small artists got even less, especially if they gave away their publishing rights, which many did just to get a recording contract.

Profitable artists always made their money on tour.  Anyone from either side of the music business will tell you that.

The record labels aren't getting rich on touring, it's the guys like Ticketmaster that are taking huge percentages, and the fact that so many boomer bands have such huge insurance riders to amortize.  That's what's driving ticket prices up and at a certain point, the market just says no.

You won't see less expensive ticket prices unless you can break the two or three big promoters and that's highly unlikely to happen as they all have a big stake in the places that they play.  If you want to dump Ticketron, that means you don't access to the large acts that keep your venue alive.  If you can't book Coldplay, etc and pack the house 10 times a year, you can't stay alive on the smaller bands that will sell have the arena if you're lucky.

That doesn't seem at all in contradiction with what I wrote, but then perhaps I live in another universe. I think a lot of bands thought they would make it big by signing with the big labels, and then found, even after signing a big contract, selling tons of records, and selling out lots of shows, that they weren't making a whole lot of money (Ani DiFranco has talked about this a fair amount): this was pretty much down to lousy contracts, naive bands, and really sleazy record company guys.

Honestly, I can't decide who are slimier, the record companies or Ticketmaster. The only real way of dealing with either is to simply not buy their products or go to their concerts.

The record companies will end up losing, since they're fighting the internet. Ticketmaster, on the other hand, seems to have mastered the art of local politics and monopoly enforcement pretty well.

[Diamond Dog]

The record companies will end up losing, since they're fighting the internet.

That can change.

D.D.

[totoro]

That can change.

D.D.

I actually doubt that. The technology already exists to do a lot of pirating through anonymous proxies in ways that make it pretty difficult for the authorities to do anything about, and there will always be countries that thumb their noses at whatever enforcement regime is purchased.

Unless the recording industry somehow manages to recruit the NSA into their schemes, which is pretty damn unlikely, they will be sidestepped by technology.

Also, you must remember that silicon valley completely opposes them, and they are just in the process of learning how to purchase lawmakers and legislation.

[Diamond Dog]

What planet are you guys on?  The artists never made a significant amount of their revenue from album sales, ever.

Money gets made. Good luck hanging on to any of it - the game is weighted too heavily against the artist.

 http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100712/23482610186.shtml

D.D.

[ken]

Let's not forget the same cartel behind SOPA are the same people who said the VCR would destroy the film indusry It's difficult if not impossible to think of any industry not controlled by four or five major players who control the voice and message in conjunction with a compliant MSM absent of any true independent reporting.   

[macrojack]

Even though we collectively sound rather pessimistic, these times will be looked back upon as the good old days before our chains have begun to rust.

Just how important is profit really?

[decal]

Even though we collectively sound rather pessimistic, these times will be looked back upon as the good old days before our chains have begun to rust.

Just how important is profit really?

If your are the business of selling something, it's extremely important.

[Diamond Dog]

I'm fine with profit...gouging not so much.

D.D.

[macrojack]

Profit that steals peoples' homes, puts them out of work, starves children, spreads disease, denies healthcare, etc. is difficult to justify. I don't much care whether they are selling something or not. The net result, the overall social cost, is of much greater importance.

[totoro]

Profit is fine, in general. But, to take it to an extreme, very few people think that profit is a good justification for selling heroin to children, or selling slaves. So it really isn't a good justification per se.

The problem I and many others have with the music industry is that it has long operated as a cartel, treats the artists like shit, and produces a lousy product that, through its collusive relationship with the broadcasting industry, it makes sure drowns out music that doesn't suck. All while taking the excessive rents that a cartel holder can extract.

This kind of behavior can't really be justified by markets, since it is only enabled by _market failure_.

[totoro]

This whole discussion reminds me of a quote from Hunter S. Thompson:

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.