AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: FireGuy on 14 Dec 2013, 02:23 pm

Title: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 14 Dec 2013, 02:23 pm
For the Omega community - The internet not the resource I'm looking for.

Omega's design is intriguing.  However, given the rather small 4.5" driver, how does the design overcome to deliver adequate (in-room) listening SPL's?  Sounds like there's a trade off somewhere.  Also,  Most manufactures of cone speakers start with a 2-way.  How can Xover-less driver handle the designed frequencies with efficiency?

If this single-driver design is that good, why do most (cone) speaker manufactures start with a 2-way?  Knowing of course they need more power.  Omega's sensitivity ratings are nice btw.

So then, please tell me why I should consider the Super 5's Vs. non single-driver transducers?  I will tell you after some reviews I've read these are on my short list.  Just need some X's & O's to fully understand why.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91422)
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Canada Rob on 14 Dec 2013, 06:06 pm
Hello FireGuy,
What do you have for upline equipment? 
What type of music do you mostly listen to? 
Do you have good stands to put under a high quality monitor such as the Super 5? 

Also, could you clarify this statement: "For the Omega community - The internet not the resource I'm looking for."
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 14 Dec 2013, 06:08 pm
For me, one of the biggest reasons I like my Omegas is the high frequencies are really nice, the 4.5" driver is a better tweeter than most tweeters and the tweeters I like better tend to cost more for just the part than an entire pair of Omega speakers. Beryllium tweeters and high end RAAL ribbons aren't exactly inexpensive options and that's what it takes to get better high frequency reproduction imo. Then there's also the fact that the highs blend with the rest of the frequencies perfectly and the fact the low end extension is plently low enough to make handing over to a subwoofer for the last couple octaves pretty easy and seamless.

Of course you are right that maximum SPLs and dynamics are limited, but in a small room with the speakers close to your listening position the problem is minimized and I think you'd be surprised at much slam and max volume you can get out of these speakers, it is VERY impressive.

Combined with a good amp, source and cabling you will have a system whose sound quality approaches the best in the world, just on a smaller scale compared to a large, expensive system. So you can get an Omega setup with a small class A or D amp for a very reasonable price. The cheapest multi-way speakers I've heard that compare to Omega are about $4k, and these speakers tend to have higher max volume capabilities so not exactly an apples-to-oranges comparison, but it depends on your priorities (any system has compromises), the music and volume levels you listen to and the space the speakers will be set up in.

The high frequencies of the Omegas are so good I am considering using it in a multi-way setup with a huge 15" JBL pro driver to handle the mid-bass. Blasphemy, I know...  :icon_twisted:
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 14 Dec 2013, 09:03 pm
Hello FireGuy,
What do you have for upline equipment? 
What type of music do you mostly listen to? 
Do you have good stands to put under a high quality monitor such as the Super 5? 

Also, could you clarify this statement: "For the Omega community - The internet not the resource I'm looking for."

Amp AVR is a Denon 1610 which should be plenty for these speakers.  Room is small to medium, mostly 2C.  Boston 10" Sub.  I plan on adding a SET tube amp. prob a Musical Paradise.  Mostly listen to  Symphonic/Alt-Prog metal (female lead singer preferred) and all forms of trance.  Yes, I have good stands,  so support is not an issue.  Lastly,  since I'm interested in this design, finding specific design parameters of the single-driver speaker and why is works so well Vs. other cone speakers that mostly other mfgr's provide is limited.  In other words, if single-drivers are so good, why are there so few companies making them?
 
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 14 Dec 2013, 09:41 pm
Amp AVR is a Denon 1610 which should be plenty for these speakers.  Room is small to medium, mostly 2C.  Boston 10" Sub.  I plan on adding a SET tube amp. prob a Musical Paradise.  Mostly listen to  Symphonic/Alt-Prog metal (female lead singer preferred) and all forms of trance.  Yes, I have good stands,  so support is not an issue.  Lastly,  since I'm interested in this design, finding specific design parameters of the single-driver speaker and why is works so well Vs. other cone speakers that mostly other mfgr's provide is limited.  In other words, if single-drivers are so good, why are there so few companies making them?

In other words, if single-drivers are so good, why are there so few companies making them?

Great Question Fire Guy!





Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 15 Dec 2013, 01:37 am
For me, one of the biggest reasons I like my Omegas is the high frequencies are really nice, the 4.5" driver is a better tweeter than most tweeters and the tweeters I like better tend to cost more for just the part than an entire pair of Omega speakers. Beryllium tweeters and high end RAAL ribbons aren't exactly inexpensive options and that's what it takes to get better high frequency reproduction imo. Then there's also the fact that the highs blend with the rest of the frequencies perfectly and the fact the low end extension is plently low enough to make handing over to a subwoofer for the last couple octaves pretty easy and seamless.

Of course you are right that maximum SPLs and dynamics are limited, but in a small room with the speakers close to your listening position the problem is minimized and I think you'd be surprised at much slam and max volume you can get out of these speakers, it is VERY impressive.

Combined with a good amp, source and cabling you will have a system whose sound quality approaches the best in the world, just on a smaller scale compared to a large, expensive system. So you can get an Omega setup with a small class A or D amp for a very reasonable price. The cheapest multi-way speakers I've heard that compare to Omega are about $4k, and these speakers tend to have higher max volume capabilities so not exactly an apples-to-oranges comparison, but it depends on your priorities (any system has compromises), the music and volume levels you listen to and the space the speakers will be set up in.

The high frequencies of the Omegas are so good I am considering using it in a multi-way setup with a huge 15" JBL pro driver to handle the mid-bass. Blasphemy, I know...  :icon_twisted:

Thanks DaveC.  Good info.  This is the kind of real life testimonial that makes the selection process easier to pare.  I hear real passion for what you experience with Omega.  My other short-list contenders are:  Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1, Maggie MMG,  DefTech Studio Monitor 65 and two towers.   Axiom M50 and Aperion 5T.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Canada Rob on 15 Dec 2013, 01:39 am
In other words, if single-drivers are so good, why are there so few companies making them?
To quote milford3, Great question FireGuy. 
To produce a successful single driver speaker is way more difficult than producing a two way speaker, as much more attention has to be paid to driver design, not to mention the cabinet that it goes into.  If it was easy, everybody would be doing it, but the audio industry is driven mostly by the bottom line rather than a passion for good sound, hence multi driver speakers abound because they are easier to make (not that I am saying they are all bad).  Louis at Omega uses his own U.S. made proprietary drivers and hand builds all the cabinets himself, and a lot more goes into them than meets the eye.  Another thing that sets Omega apart is the high efficiency he is getting out of compact designs, making them very SET friendly.  Single driver: harder to produce.  High efficiency single driver: even harder to produce, especially in a compact design.
All his speakers are grossly underpriced.  I have heard many speakers in my long audio career, and the speaker you are looking at should go for about $2500 a pair.  Not having multiple levels of distribution, or full page print ads in Stereophile etc. keeps costs down too.

Concerning amplification, all I can say is you are on the right track thinking about a SET.  The Super 5 will sound good on your Denon, but a good SET or SEP will take things up several notches.  I am not putting down your Denon; it's thing is home theatre which no doubt it does very well at, but for a music application like what you are looking at a SET, SEP, or even a good PP will trounce it.

As far as describing the sound and advantages of the Omegas, DaveC113 said it well enough.....sans his last remark.  Multi-way?.....ugh! :cry:
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 15 Dec 2013, 01:53 am
To quote milford3, Great question FireGuy. 
To produce a successful single driver speaker is way more difficult than producing a two way speaker, as much more attention has to be paid to driver design, not to mention the cabinet that it goes into.  If it was easy, everybody would be doing it, but the audio industry is driven mostly by the bottom line rather than a passion for good sound, hence multi driver speakers abound because they are easier to make (not that I am saying they are all bad).  Louis at Omega uses his own U.S. made proprietary drivers and hand builds all the cabinets himself, and a lot more goes into them than meets the eye.  Another thing that sets Omega apart is the high efficiency he is getting out of compact designs, making them very SET friendly.  Single driver: harder to produce.  High efficiency single driver: even harder to produce, especially in a compact design.
All his speakers are grossly underpriced.  I have heard many speakers in my long audio career, and the speaker you are looking at should go for about $2500 a pair.  Not having multiple levels of distribution, or full page print ads in Stereophile etc. keeps costs down too.

Bingo Canada Rob.    Great narrative as to the virtue with this particular design.  Easy to digest.  My short list get a heck of lot shorter. 

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 15 Dec 2013, 02:17 am
Lol, I know... multi-way... but it is true Louis is working on solutions that aren't strictly single driver too.  :green:   When you hear what kind of dynamics you can get out of a 15" mid bass driver at 98 dB sensitivity you will probably get it, but I guess it doesn't matter if you never crank up the volume too high.

FireGuy, Rob is 100% right about the drivers, the speakers are as good as they are because Louis has been working on the drivers for a long time. I have heard many other single drivers, some of which retail for 5 figures and Omega isn't going to be embarrassed by any of them. Everyone that hears my system is shocked by what the little 4.5" drivers can do. Any multi-way speaker you are going to look at anywhere near Omega's pricepoint are going to be hobbled by poor tweeters, crossover components and enclosures. There;s just no way to build a multi way speaker the quality of Omega for anywhere near the price. The cheapest speakers I have heard that compete are Merlin, Odyssey and Prana Fidelity, and they are all $3900 and up. Note they all sell direct to the customer too, if you are looking at the big brands then you're looking at speakers closer to $10k.







Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 15 Dec 2013, 02:40 am
Plus, these cost less than the Sierra 1's I'm considering.  I've been with Axiom Audio and their bookshelf line for about six years now.  Their price to performance ratio is simply outstanding.  It appears Omega drives that train too.  Liking it.  Liking it a lot.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 15 Dec 2013, 02:49 am
Hello FireGuy,
What do you have for upline equipment? 
What type of music do you mostly listen to? 
Do you have good stands to put under a high quality monitor such as the Super 5? 

Also, could you clarify this statement: "For the Omega community - The internet not the resource I'm looking for."


Go for it FireGuy.  I always love new audio stuff.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 15 Dec 2013, 02:57 am

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=91460)

For got the pic.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: seikosha on 15 Dec 2013, 05:13 pm
My guess for the reason that you don't see more manufacturers doing the single driver thing is that a large part of it is a marketing concern.  It's a hard sell to convince the audiophile community that a single drive can give high quality sound and there is also a push for the widest possible frequency response to report on as well.

I converted to Omegas (Super 3XRS) earlier this year.  Mentally it was a big step and truthfully, I don't think I could have done it if I hadn't gotten a chance to hear them before I took the plunge.  After having lived with them now for 7 or 8 months, I haven't regretted the decision one bit.

What I get with my Omegas is a speed, coherency and a very unbox like sound with the best soundstaging and imaging capabilities of any speakers I've owned.  I have two systems set up, besides my Omega Decware system, I have another that I rotate Kef LS50's and Harbeth P3ESR's in and out of.  I have to say, it's hard to listen to the Kefs and Harbeths after listening to the Omegas.  Both sound slow, boxy and very discontinuous.  It's like you can hear the transition from the midrange to the tweeter and I also hear an odd phasiness with those speakers that the Omegas don't have.  It's common for two way speakers to have the tweeters wired out of phase with the woofers and both the Kefs and Harbeths are designed this way.  It's possible that I can now hear this after living with the Omegas.  Before I owned the Omegas, I never even heard these colorations, now they jump out at me instantly.  When listening to the Omegas I am often reminded of the sound I used to get with some Magnepans I used to have.

I think the true strength of the Omegas though is their ability to let you play them with some of the low powered SET amps.  The advantages of the Omegas really shine through once you start to play them with these types of amps.  With my Class D amp, my Omegas start to sound too lean, but they do sound better with a warmer Musical Fidelity integrated I have, but really, when I play them with either of my two Decware amps, the overall sound really differentiates itself from my other traditional system.  It's been postulated that amplifiers with high negative feedback don't interact well with high efficiency speakers.  My experience seems to support this.

That said, I can understand where the single driver concept isn't for everyone.  Shortcomings of my system and I can easily live with them is that the sound ultimately isn't as big or with the impact of traditional speakers.  After all, this is a single small driver and at the end of the day, it's not going to move as much air as a big multi way system.  For me, it's not an issue, but for others, I could understand how it could be.  I know some people play their music quite loud and for those folks, I'm sure some of them would miss some of the big sound you get from multiple driver setups.  Also, ultimate bass response is limited.  According to my SPL meter, in my room, my Omega's start to roll off right at 60hz.  I'm not a bass freak so it's not a big deal and Louis makes speakers with larger drivers, so as you move up in driver size, this should be come less of an issue.  Don't get me wrong, the Omegas will play loud and with impact, but if you are the type of person that blasts Midnight Oil with 100db+ peaks, you'll notice that they don't have the slam that a comparable well designed two way with bigger drivers has.

Good luck with your decision and let us know how it ends up.

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 15 Dec 2013, 05:45 pm
seikosha, good job writing and I agree 100%.

I have talked with Louis about speakers that preserve the strengths of Omega's sound while being able to play at higher SPLs with greater dynamics. I'm not sure what he's settled on, if anything yet, but there are plans for a "bigger" speaker. Also, there is now a 7" version of the RS5 driver, the Super 7 XRS was posted in another thread, that will certainly move more air.

Louis is also coming out with a 12" mid bass and subwoofer... I do think it'll be possible to blend a very fast and efficient woofer with Omegas, I have heard it done with a ribbon tweeter which is very "fast" with great results. The 15" mid bass JBLs I just picked up are 98 dB and I think they will pair well, I will probably use an electronic xover to test out the pairing at some point. The woofers are part of a speaker kit, so they come with compression horns as well... it would be cool to be able to use the 15" midbass with both horns and Omegas. But as always, you don't get something for nothing and in this case the biggest tradeoff is probably money, the 15" JBLs are $1k/pair.  :o



Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Louis O on 15 Dec 2013, 07:53 pm
Hi FireGuy,

Many thanks for your post and welcome. I really do think that the replies posted are all great and seikosha really nailed it. I used to make mutiway hifi style speakers before single drivers and since making that first single driver I have never looked back. It's the speed, coherence, they way they let go of the note, unboxy way they go about reproducing music.  No passive crossover issues either. Some companies have made single drivers and went multiway HiFi, I won't. They are way to slow.

All my drivers are OEM and designed by me to sound they best in my cabinet configurations. I try my best to get the most out of them.

DaveC113 is absolutely correct and I will be introducing soon the augmented systems with my 12" driver. It's single driver based and will have huge scale and dynamics. It took a while because I don't use off the shelf drivers and had to build my own. It's done now and it will see service in a variety of systems.

Thanks again and more on the way,
Louis
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: JLM on 15 Dec 2013, 09:39 pm
Louis,

To one of FireGuy's concerns:  How many watts is this driver rated to handle?


FireGuy,

With your subwoofer, the major shortcomings of a small driver, single driver speaker (lack of deep bass, and ultimate sound pressure levels) have been largely addressed.

Finally the American market is beginning to move from bigger the better/more the better mentality.  As mentioned above the coherence of single driver designs (no crossover phasing issues, no mismatch of drivers near the crossover frequency, ideal point source imaging) can't be touched in multiple drivers (crossing over to a sub at/below say 80 Hz doesn't present this issues).  As mentioned above, once you've heard this coherence everything else is artificial sounding and hard to listen to.  Keep in mind that the driver in a single driver speaker has 'no place to hide' (no crossover, other drivers, and cabinets affect only frequencies below 300 Hz and mostly below 100 Hz), so it'd better be a good one.  Louis spent years driving us crazy making us wait until this driver met his standards.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Moot on 15 Dec 2013, 09:47 pm
FireGuy: One of the things no-one has hit on in this thread is Omega's speaker enclosures, which, IMO, are un-matched in quality at this price point! The drivers are important, but it's the cabinet that makes or breaks single-driver speakers, and Louis' cabs (at least the pair I have) are solid, don't resonate at all, are gorgeous, and flawlessly constructed. I have the Super 6 Alnico Monitors. Someone here mentioned that he loves the treble from the single-drivers, and I'll second that! These Omega's have the best high-end presentation I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 15 Dec 2013, 09:59 pm

DaveC113 is absolutely correct and I will be introducing soon the augmented systems with my 12" driver. It's single driver based and will have huge scale and dynamics. It took a while because I don't use off the shelf drivers and had to build my own. It's done now and it will see service in a variety of systems.

Thanks again and more on the way,
Louis

That's great news! It's pretty likely I will sell my Super 3 XRS in favor of an augmented system and/or go with a 4.5" monitor to match with the 15" JBLs I got. I'm not going away from single drivers but I would like to have a variety of speakers/amps to test my cables on. The 4.5" driver is a great tool to hear fine detail and really reveals changes I make in cables. I couldn't pass up the deal Nick gave me on the JBLs/4pi speaker kit, it was $750 shipped for $2k worth of parts and is kind of on the exact opposite spectrum of Omega in some ways so will make a valuable addition for cable testing. Those 4pi speakers can hit mid 120 dB peaks and the dynamics are just scary...  :o
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 17 Dec 2013, 01:31 am
Thank you all for your honest representations addressing my concerns on the single-driver design.  Most candid and appreciated.  I really can't take any exception to any of the points articulated and this helps greatly in the evaluation process.  Unfortunately there is no local dealer to do a road test so your inputs and opinions are a necessity... imo.  I have not doubt of the quality of product just that (initially) the overall design appeared incongruous compared to what's offered by the majority of speaker manufactures out in the market place.  If there's just one hanging parameter, it would be the SPL output.  But, my listening room is small to medium and I'm well past the "blasting" stage.  I want intimacy, definition, smoothness and transparency.  I am not looking past Omega and it looks like I'll be owner of the Super 5 early next year.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: JLM on 17 Dec 2013, 02:53 pm
If you let us know where you live, perhaps someone nearby will volunteer to help you with an audition.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: beowulf on 18 Dec 2013, 12:46 am
DaveC113 is absolutely correct and I will be introducing soon the augmented systems with my 12" driver. It's single driver based and will have huge scale and dynamics. It took a while because I don't use off the shelf drivers and had to build my own. It's done now and it will see service in a variety of systems.

Thanks again and more on the way,
Louis

Hi Louis, single 12" driver to cover the entire sound spectrum?  That would be a dream speaker if so, can you share any preliminary specs?
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 18 Dec 2013, 01:04 am
If you let us know where you live, perhaps someone nearby will volunteer to help you with an audition.

I'm working with Vladimir at North Country Audio...we're going to get the wheels in motion after the Holidays.  We had a good conversation this morning and I already have a relaxed sense my audio needs come before his sales.  Yes Sir,  that's how you do it.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 18 Dec 2013, 01:49 am
Hi Louis, single 12" driver to cover the entire sound spectrum?  That would be a dream speaker if so, can you share any preliminary specs?

No, the mid bass down will be done with a 12" mid bass driver... so it's like an augmented single driver, but not a traditional multi way.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: beowulf on 18 Dec 2013, 09:17 am
No, the mid bass down will be done with a 12" mid bass driver... so it's like an augmented single driver, but not a traditional multi way.

Ok, so will this use some sort of crossover then?
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 18 Dec 2013, 03:46 pm
It would have to, probably just a cap on the single driver, but that's all I know so I'll let Louis comment on it further if he's ready.

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Louis O on 22 Dec 2013, 08:11 pm
Hi Beowulf,

Thanks and no, the 12 will cover bass only. The driver is named Speed 12 now and will be doing a lot with them. First would be a very fast and efficient front firing bass unit. It won't be a sub. It's made for speed and quality bass and has to keep up with RS5's which are hard to keep up with. Also wouldn't want a 12 to run up high or even try to make it FR. The thing would beam like crazy.

Hi DaveC113,

You got it and the augmented speakers will be just that. Not traditional because the Crossover won't be in the way of the midrange and it won't be a slow speaker. It will be at least 96dB. The Speed 12 has a cone weight of 32 grams and huge motor.

The crossover would be set around 500Hz, simple first order and will hand off to RS5's in one version and alnico 6.5's in another.

The Bass only version will be powered. This one is going to be released first.

Thanks,
Louis
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 22 Dec 2013, 09:05 pm
I would like a set of speakers for that application using the RS5... i.e. sitting on top of a bass bin. I will get in touch after the holidays about that.

The RS5 makes for a better tweeter than most tweeters.   :green:

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Louis O on 24 Dec 2013, 11:49 pm
Hi DaveC113,

Thanks and sounds great. I have a couple of versions on the drawing board. Thinking of a wide baffle one box cab with the RS5's as well.

They sure do especially dome tweeters.

Thanks,
Louis
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 25 Dec 2013, 12:27 am
Yeah, the RS5's highs sound natural and realistic. They provide plenty of detail without harshness, they don't make everything sound metallic while still getting cymbals right, they don't sound imprecise and just kind of crappy like a soft dome and of course they blend with the mids perfectly too. And the dispersion seems to work well, it is controlled but the rolloff depends on frequency (correct me if I'm off), so it has some of the properties of a tweeter with a waveguide too.

A vast majority of tweeters just sound off but recently some tweeters have become more refined. I am impressed with the beryllium based drivers I have heard, in fact these are the best transducers on the market right now IMO. TAD uses it to great effect in their proprietary coax driver (probably the best driver on the market period) and it is also used in compression driver diaphragms and some dome tweeters. RAAL's ribbons are also getting to the point where they are sounding good and the plasma tweeters I have heard are spectacular but very high $$$. And some of the electrostat tweets are nice, a friend has a set of ESS Heils that I just rebuilt and they are very good, so are the Enigma Acoustics Sopranino supertweeter demo'd w/ Majicos at RMAF this year.

Louis, have you experimented with using tweeters/super tweeters at the extreme high end? Like 18kHz or so?

I think the supertweeter is a good idea just so you can offer a 4-way single driver based system...  :lol:  You could have a 20-50 kHz FR system with one driver doing ~500-18 kHz...

Anyway, I am excited to see a BIG Omega speaker... with sound quality, efficiency, dynamics and being able to produce high SPLs they will be playing in the big leagues for sure. 
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 7 Jan 2014, 06:01 pm
Nothing better than on a snow day to buy new speakers.  Just emailed Louis and ordered a pair of Super 5's with walnut veneer (level 2).   Two or three weeks to get in house.  Not too bad.  They are going to replace a pair of Axiom M2V3's in my 2nd room, 2C set up.    I've always highly regarded Axiom's "Canadian"  linear presentation as I own all of their bookshelves.  We'll see how they compete.  My expectations of course are that they will and then some. 

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=92621)
   
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: ebag4 on 7 Jan 2014, 11:58 pm
Congrats on the Super 5s.  I should receive my Super 3is tomorrow, also in the walnut veneer.  I plan to run these with the bass section of my GR V1s.  Can't wait!

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 8 Jan 2014, 12:04 am
Congrats on the Super 5s.  I should receive my Super 3is tomorrow, also in the walnut veneer.  I plan to run these with the bass section of my GR V1s.  Can't wait!

Best,
Ed

Nice Ed.  I did consider the 3's but wanted just a little more meat on the bone.  Have to also admit good choice on the walnut finish.  My latest Axiom purchase has a real wood cherry veneer and so appreciate the improved overall quality Vs. laminate.   Send pics and initial impressions on fit/finish and most importantly the sonic qualities.  I have not personally auditioned any Omega so I'm hoping for your 'most impressed" feedback. 
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Guy 13 on 8 Jan 2014, 03:24 am
Congrats on the Super 5s.  I should receive my Super 3is tomorrow, also in the walnut veneer.  I plan to run these with the bass section of my GR V1s.  Can't wait!

Best,
Ed


Hi Ed and all Audio Circle members.
Are you gona drive your new
Super 3 with your Bottlehead Stereomour?
I am highly interested in reading your comments, which are always very detailled.
I am very anxious to get my Omega 7F drivers which I will complement with my V2 sub section.
However, I will use first the Omega 7F in a dipole configuration with my Decware 2wpc SET.

Guy 13
 
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 8 Jan 2014, 06:51 am
FireGuy:  Congrats on the new Omega Super 5's.  New audio purchases are ALWAYS fun.  I have perused posts that suggest (room size withstanding) a SET or Push-Pull tube amp works best with Omegas.  Single driver speakers are very interesting indeed.   :D  Have fun.  And I want to hear the compairisent with the Axioms.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 10 Jan 2014, 01:09 am
Congrats on the Super 5s.  I should receive my Super 3is tomorrow, also in the walnut veneer.  I plan to run these with the bass section of my GR V1s.  Can't wait!

Best,
Ed

Ed - has your shipment arrived?  Looking forward to your initial impressions.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: ebag4 on 10 Jan 2014, 01:14 am
Yes, they look fantastic, great build.  I am burning them in but haven't had a chance to really listen.  What hit me immediately is that they sound good out of the box.  More to come once I get a real chance to listen, likely this weekend, that way I will have about 20 hours on them as well.


Best,
Ed

pics too!
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 10 Jan 2014, 01:34 am
Yes, they look fantastic, great build.  I am burning them in but haven't had a chance to really listen.  What hit me immediately is that they sound good out of the box.  More to come once I get a real chance to listen, likely this weekend, that way I will have about 20 hours on them as well.


Best,
Ed

pics too!


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=92735)
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Guy 13 on 10 Jan 2014, 02:08 am
Yes, they look fantastic, great build.  I am burning them in but haven't had a chance to really listen.  What hit me immediately is that they sound good out of the box.  More to come once I get a real chance to listen, likely this weekend, that way I will have about 20 hours on them as well.


Best,
Ed

pics too!

Hi Ed and all Audio Circle members.
Still waiting for your answer about my question, which was:
Will you be driving your new Omega with your Bottlehead amplifier?

Guy 13
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: ebag4 on 10 Jan 2014, 02:24 am
Sorry Guy, I read that at work and forgot to respond later.  The answer is yes, I am driving them with the Stereomour.  That is part of what I wanted to try, SET with full range driver, see if I can capture a little of that SET/Full Range magic .

More later.

Best,
Ed
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Louis O on 12 Jan 2014, 09:21 pm
Hi Ed,

Great choice and I had one a years ago and I should get another one. Would be fun to make a really nice chassis for it.

Thanks,
Louis
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 17 Jan 2014, 05:57 pm
Emailed Louis the other day and he's confirmed my Super 5's are shipping next week.  Already have Milford3 buying a pair on my recommendation after initial eval and break in.  Pretty sure you'll know where I'll be next weekend.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 17 Jan 2014, 06:00 pm
I'm I invited??? :D
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 17 Jan 2014, 06:25 pm
I'm I invited??? :D

Always...with a heaping amount of Arrogant Bastard.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 24 Jan 2014, 12:35 am
Louis got my Super 5's out to FedEx today.  Should have them tomorrow or Sat.  Had to reroute delivery to a FedEx site...shipped with sig required and I'll be at work.   I'll have some initial pics soon.  Yes indeed!  Order was seamless.  Thank you Louis.  Got my music all lined up.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 24 Jan 2014, 01:04 am
Have the Arrogant Bastard ready!! :thumb:
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 24 Jan 2014, 01:19 am
Super 5 + AB.  Pinch me.   Louis you're invited too.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93567)
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Guy 13 on 24 Jan 2014, 02:18 am
Hi FireGuy and all Audio Circle members.
I don't drink beer, wine, alchool, can I invite myself?
I can be an arrogant bastard if that can help?

Guy 13
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 24 Jan 2014, 04:02 am
Hey, can I come too? There's nothing better in this hobby than sharing the fun of a new piece of gear with a bunch of other audio phools. As for the Arrogant Bastard, I live a 1/2 mile from Stone Brewery so I could drop by and grab a suitcase full of growlers before heading for the airport. Maybe I'll bring along a few other outstanding North San Diego County craft brews for your enjoyment. Just kidding, of course. You all enjoy. I'll be with you in spirit.

CSI
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: JeffB on 24 Jan 2014, 10:30 pm
A little earlier in this thread Louis mentioned a 500Hz cross-over point for the speed 12.
This surprised me.  I was thinking it would be down around 80 to 100Hz.
Louis, I am curious on your reasoning behind a 500Hz cross-over point.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 25 Jan 2014, 12:42 am
Hey, can I come too? There's nothing better in this hobby than sharing the fun of a new piece of gear with a bunch of other audio phools. As for the Arrogant Bastard, I live a 1/2 mile from Stone Brewery so I could drop by and grab a suitcase full of growlers before heading for the airport. Maybe I'll bring along a few other outstanding North San Diego County craft brews for your enjoyment. Just kidding, of course. You all enjoy. I'll be with you in spirit.

CSI

There are a lot of things I've give up to be that close to Stone Brewery.   Buffalo's got Pearl Street...their Trainwreck is worth a visit here.  But Arrogant Bastard is my #1.  First had it in San Diego about five years ago while visiting the USS Midway (served from '75 to '77).  Arrogant Bastard?...you lucky bastard.  CSI & Guy 13 welcome anytime.

http://buffalobrewerydistrict.com/pearl/beerprofiles


Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Louis O on 25 Jan 2014, 11:07 pm
Hi FireGuy,

Many thanks for the invite and wish I could. I would really like to try out the Arrogant Bastard beer. Many thanks for your kind words and it was a pleasure working with you too. The speakers came out great and the veneer I got for these was a great cut. Can't wait for you to get them. Let them warm up a little in room before you fire them up.

Hi JeffB,

Thanks and the 500 Hz was for a passive augmented single driver 2 way with the Speed 12 driver. The active Speed 12 would be way lower.

Still thinking about the passive version though.

Thanks,
Louis

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 26 Jan 2014, 01:09 am
Hi FireGuy,

Many thanks for the invite and wish I could. I would really like to try out the Arrogant Bastard beer. Many thanks for your kind words and it was a pleasure working with you too. The speakers came out great and the veneer I got for these was a great cut. Can't wait for you to get them. Let them warm up a little in room before you fire them up.

Hi JeffB,

Thanks and the 500 Hz was for a passive augmented single driver 2 way with the Speed 12 driver. The active Speed 12 would be way lower.


Still thinking about the passive version though.

Thanks,
Louis

Louis - Looks like Monday evening is when I'll pick them up.  FedEx could not get the 5's to my pick up point today.  Probably just as well, our winter has been miserable and today was no exception.    I'm being as patient as I can.  Point taken regarding a warm up period...already had that considered.  Can't wait to see the walnut finish.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 27 Jan 2014, 06:39 pm
Lest the mods think we've strayed a mile off topic I should add that the reason I've been following all these Omega threads is that I've decided to change speakers (something I do very rarely) and the enthusiasm of the AC Omega users has convinced me to order my own pair of Super 3 XRS. Louis tells me the cabinets are built and the veneer will be added this week. I can hardly wait! As for the Stone Ale offerings, they are great but I don't get over there as often as I used to because N. San Diego County is teeming with local breweries. I pass 5 tasting rooms on my 7 mile commute to work! You'll be happy to learn that Greg Koch, Stone co-founder, has very much encouraged this local craft brew scene, making it possible, for instance, for Lost Abbey to move into Stone's old facility when they outgrew it a few years back. "Big Beer" would have destroyed the vats rather than let a potential competitor get a leg up.

OK, back to audio. Louis thinks I will be very happy with my RWA Sig 16 and I'm sure he's right and I will never give it up. But there is always that tube temptation out there so I'm thinking of an alternative. Anyone have any thoughts on tube amps to mate with Omega 3XRS?
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Jan 2014, 09:35 pm
CSI, good choice! I also have the 3 XRS.  :thumb:

I have not gotten into exotic/expensive DHTs, and I'm sure some of them might be better than my SET amp, but I've tried EL34 and KT88/6550s in my amp and I prefer the EL34s. The best of that type I've used are not exactly EL34s but they are a drop in replacement, the new stock Gold Lion KT77. My amp makes about 5 wpc, 6 at the start of visible clipping on a scope, and this is a good match with the RS5 driver. They can take more power I think, but the EL34 seems to drive it close to it's maximum just judging from the amount of excursion when the amp is near full power. After demoing the TBI digital amp at 35 wpc I would like a SET amp of around 10 wpc, but that's not going to be cheap unless you don't mind ultralinear operation on an EL34 or KT88 type tube. I am considering paralleling 2 EL34s so I get the same power as one in UL mode, as triode mode sounds more natural to me.





Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 27 Jan 2014, 10:53 pm
What you describe (EL34's wired single ended putting out about 6 watts) sounds a lot like a Decware SE34I. Did you build your own? If so, you have my admiration since design/build is way beyond my abilities. I've been a fan of EL34's for years so the Decware SE34I intrigues me.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Jan 2014, 11:57 pm
Yes, it is a lot like the Decware, but I am using a preamp with the capability to output about 30V rms so my amp is simply the EL34s with no driver stage. Both were DIY'ed. I think the Decware would be a great choice if you don't want to build your own. I haven't looked into how much gain it has, but if you have a 2V source it is likely you will not need a preamp. My system has about 12 dB of gain, works out very well but a 2V source is needed to have enough gain.

This pic was from testing my preamp right after it was built...

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/davec113/system%2010-24-12/system10-24-12002.jpg) (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/davec113/media/system%2010-24-12/system10-24-12002.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 28 Jan 2014, 01:02 am
Super 5's are here.  A few quick pics (I apologize for the grainess).  First impressions:  Fit and finish are gorgeous.  Beautiful walnut veneer I'd say is near perfect.  And yes Louis, staying away from a high gloss appearance is a good decision.  There's a slight sheen from natural which exposes all the good qualities of the wood.  Love the walnut.  I'm already liking the frequency integration into one driver, better coherence.     I'll have a more detailed sonic take once these have had some play time.  For this space their size is about ideal.  Sensitivity is as advertised. 

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93744)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93745)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93746)


Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 28 Jan 2014, 01:10 am
Super 5 + AB.  Pinch me.   Louis you're invited too.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=93567)
 

Where is the beer?   Very nice FireGuy.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 28 Jan 2014, 01:24 am
Milford3 I'll guarantee you some.  Grab a flight.  Don't forget your T1's.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: milford3 on 28 Jan 2014, 01:40 am
With the Schitt Lyr of course.  Let these Omegas break in for a time.  They look great.  And let me know how single driver speakers  sound.  Single driver speakers are new to me.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 3 Mar 2014, 07:11 pm
Update on the Super 5's:

Been running these now for approx five weeks and feel the need to provide some initial takes.   Fit and finish is superb...extremely pleased with the furniture-grade walnut veneer.  Edging and grain pattern very well done.  They fit my existing stands too, like it was made for them.   It took a  week or so to get used to the single-driver presentation.  My listening postion is more acute with these.  Although off axis is okay, I find I really need to be in that sweet spot...more than my Axioms required.  As mentioned earlier in this thread, I'll be surprised as to the dynamics of these 4.5" drivers.  So true.  Remakable engineering, these do provide some slam when called upon,  and with composure.  Highs are smooth and mid bass best I've heard and will confirm an authentic see-though transparency.  Like I'm listening through the enclosure.  Left to right staging is wide and wonderful; and getting better every day.  Image specificty is emerging, but not yet up to my Axiom M2v3's.  I'm figuring when break in is complete this will change.  Overall Louis has done a awesome job.  I want to do a side-by-side review of the 5's along with my Axiom M22's V3 when I have some time in the spring.  Kudos Louis.   Very very satisfied and highly recommended.  Next step will be SET amp.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: Canada Rob on 3 Mar 2014, 09:29 pm
Image specificty is emerging, but not yet up to my Axiom M2v3's.  I'm figuring when break in is complete this will change.
Hello FireGuy,
Great review, but forgive me for focusing on the negative, but there is no way a budget two way will out image the Super 5, new or broken in.  I believe something is not quite right (I am not questioning what you are hearing).  It could be your room is interacting differently with the Omegas than with the Axioms, or maybe the Denon is not a great match for the Omegas.  Any of the RS5 based Omegas are absolutely nuts when it comes to all aspects of imaging.  Definitely a good SET amp will also help matters.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: FireGuy on 4 Mar 2014, 01:23 am
Hello FireGuy,
Great review, but forgive me for focusing on the negative, but there is no way a budget two way will out image the Super 5, new or broken in.  I believe something is not quite right (I am not questioning what you are hearing).  It could be your room is interacting differently with the Omegas than with the Axioms, or maybe the Denon is not a great match for the Omegas.  Any of the RS5 based Omegas are absolutely nuts when it comes to all aspects of imaging.  Definitely a good SET amp will also help matters.

Canada Rob - As to the imaging I think you hit it right on with the room interaction.  Ceiling is deeply sloped in one half of the room.   I'll continue to experiment with positioning and of course adding the tube amp soon.  I also agree a budget two-way should not "out image"  the 5's but I'm hearing what I'm hearing.  Although some of Axiom's products can be classified as budget,  they certainly don't perform to that description... and that's another discussion.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 4 Mar 2014, 02:40 am
Imaging is one thing that fell into place with a SET amp for me, big time. It went from ok to speakers totally disappearing in the room. I think that is a sign if a good system, you should not be able to pinpoint the position of the speakers on a good recording.

2 way speakers can image really well, but if you optimize the system for a 2-way with separate tweet vs a single driver the single driver will win, hands down. The key here is optimize the system for the speaker, otherwise the comparisons mean very little. Your results will strongly depend on your choice of amplifiers so it isn't so east to compare these two speakers fairly. A SET will give the Omegas an unfair advantage while a more powerful amp will favor the 2-ways. For the most part... there are certainly many exceptions, like a good class A SS amp could work well for both. Anyway, just one thing to consider....

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: pstrisik on 4 Mar 2014, 04:30 am
.....  2 way speakers can image really well, but if you optimize the system for a 2-way with separate tweet vs a single driver the single driver will win, hands down. The key here is optimize the system for the speaker, otherwise the comparisons mean very little. Your results will strongly depend on your choice of amplifiers so it isn't so east to compare these two speakers fairly. A SET will give the Omegas an unfair advantage while a more powerful amp will favor the 2-ways. For the most part... there are certainly many exceptions, like a good class A SS amp could work well for both. Anyway, just one thing to consider....

That rings true for me too.  I have a Dennis Had KT150 based single ended 10wpc and a CJ Pr11A 70wpc P-P amp.  My speakers are 87db sensitive 3-way AR2ax.  The CJ and ARs are meant to be together.  My soon-to-be Omega Super 7 XRS pair will undoubtedly be the mate for the single ended Had Amp.  ( I could call it a SET but it's a single ended tetrode, not triode, so it feels a bit misleading!  8) )
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 5 Mar 2014, 06:11 pm


OK, back to audio. Louis thinks I will be very happy with my RWA Sig 16 and I'm sure he's right and I will never give it up. But there is always that tube temptation out there so I'm thinking of an alternative. Anyone have any thoughts on tube amps to mate with Omega 3XRS?

Update: The Single Driver/SET Thing. I'll attempt to be brief. About 25 hours on my Omega Super 3XRS. They sound amazing with the Sig 16 and, using the Sig 16 as a preamp, terrific with my Odyssey Khartago (a little mellower over all which is good, at least during break in). A Dared MP-2A3 SET amp came on the used market and I couldn't resist. Last night I got it and listened for 3 hours. Now, I have to say, "I don't get it". What I don't get is, what the hell took me so long? I also don't get why everyone doesn't just sell everything and settle down with Omega's or their own high efficiency favorites and an SET. A Dared or a Stereomour (could it actually be better?) or maybe something in a nice Decware. All the ravings you read are true. Especially the "back to music" comments. Are the speakers too forward in the upper mids? Are my preamp tubes causing harshness? Is the bass OK? How is the soundstage doing? All that crap just disappears from your worry quotient. It's, once again, all about the music and ONLY about the music. You can't help yourself. When was the last time your sound system made you grin ear to ear? Here is my (very rough) analogy for what it's worth. Have you ever wandered into a small club to hear a favorite performer and found the sound system to be perfect? No? Once you heard a few notes of the music did you really care anymore? No? Right! It was all about you, the music and the musicians. Live and together. The rest is mostly applesauce. That's the experience. I suppose I'll tube roll a bit in time but my heart is no longer in it. It doesn't seem important anymore. What is important is where did I put that old Stan Getz CD?
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 5 Mar 2014, 06:22 pm
CSI, great post!

Now you can worry about all the little stuff. Coupling caps in the amp make a HUGE difference, as do cables, cable jacks, internal wiring, binding posts and attenuators...  :icon_twisted:

I have found my Omega Super 3XRS responds to every upgrade/change that I make and it's well worth spending some cash on the details.

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 5 Mar 2014, 06:41 pm
Arrgh! OK. It is my main hobby, after all.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: pstrisik on 5 Mar 2014, 06:53 pm
CSI, great post!

Now you can worry about all the little stuff. Coupling caps in the amp make a HUGE difference, as do cables, cable jacks, internal wiring, binding posts and attenuators...  :icon_twisted:

I have found my Omega Super 3XRS responds to every upgrade/change that I make and it's well worth spending some cash on the details.

Can you say a bit about how attenuators are useful?  Eg, between source and pre, between pre and amp?  Is it about impedance matching concerns? 

Thanks......Peter




Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: pstrisik on 5 Mar 2014, 06:55 pm
Arrgh! OK. It is my main hobby, after all.

I heard a great line from an audio showroom salesman about the cost of the hobby...  "Some people spend their money and spare time on boats; others on audio."

Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 5 Mar 2014, 07:07 pm
Funny you should mention that. I've grown too old and rickety to sail anymore but I still miss my Pearson 424. It was a wonderful craft but the epitome of the saying that B.O.A.T. stands for break out another thousand.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: pstrisik on 5 Mar 2014, 08:19 pm
Funny you should mention that. I've grown too old and rickety to sail anymore but I still miss my Pearson 424. It was a wonderful craft but the epitome of the saying that B.O.A.T. stands for break out another thousand.

.

            :beer:

.

........Peter
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 5 Mar 2014, 09:00 pm
Can you say a bit about how attenuators are useful?  Eg, between source and pre, between pre and amp?  Is it about impedance matching concerns? 

Thanks......Peter

By attenuator I mean volume control, the best being a bent tap-x most likely, then a stepped attenuator using good resistors, then a potentiometer. ..

But if your SET amp has a cheap coupling cap, this is a key part to upgrade. It makes a massive difference and cheap ones can do a lot of damage to the sound.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: pstrisik on 5 Mar 2014, 09:05 pm
By attenuator I mean volume control, the best being a bent tap-x most likely, then a stepped attenuator using good resistors, then a potentiometer. ..

But if your SET amp has a cheap coupling cap, this is a key part to upgrade. It makes a massive difference and cheap ones can do a lot of damage to the sound.

I see, thanks.

My amp is hand built by Dennis Had.  I trust his judgment in choice of parts, though I will take a look inside and see if I can discern anything.

Here's my ignorance...  do coupling caps refer to all the caps or just some performing a specific function?
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: DaveC113 on 6 Mar 2014, 03:08 pm
Coupling caps join the input stage to the power stage of your amp, or are placed on the output of a preamp tube section. In both cases the signal is carried on elevated DC voltage from the power supply and the capacitor is in series with the signal path, eliminating the DC voltage and allowing the signal to pass.

The other caps that make a huge difference are the power supply caps, if you replace the last filter cap in your power supply with a Clarity TC series film cap you will see a huge improvement.

This was mainly for CSI with the Dared amp, but pstrisik, you could call the builder of your amp and ask about cap and volume control upgrades... the Dared would almost certainly benefit from these upgrades.
Title: Re: Looking at Super 5 Monitors for 2014
Post by: CSI on 6 Mar 2014, 05:52 pm
And thanks for the good advice, BTW. Judging by the appearance of my new/used Dared (essentially mint) I'm treating it as new. Once I get 100 hours or so on I will definitely look into the caps and other tweeks.