Something new that sounds incredible

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Danny Richie

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #560 on: 30 Oct 2014, 04:17 pm »
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* What are the minimum and ideal distances from the front/side walls?

Just like any open baffle speaker, they need to at least be 3 feet out from the wall and more is better.

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* Would it be very detrimental to the sound if I covered the open sides with grill cloth?  (WAF bargaining strategy)

The grill cloth will have no effect, but be careful. A heavy structural frame cane cause some issues.

ebag4

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #561 on: 3 Nov 2014, 07:01 pm »
I thought I would give a brief update. 

I have about 140hrs on the Wedges as of Sunday night.  I have been listening to them off and on throughout this period.  I spent quite a bit of time with them on Saturday.  I love the way the Wedges reproduce music, the soundstage and imaging are recreated in a way I have not heard previously.  I am enjoying my live albums which seem to include additional information now. 

I have been playing with toe in and tweaking the bass amps (by ear for now), the Wedges and the V1 servo subs make an outstanding musical pairing.

I know some of you are wanting comparisons to the V1s, I have not played the V1s since I powered up the Wedges.  I will likely wait until I have 200 hrs on the Wedges and then I will attempt some comparisons, possibly next weekend.

Suffice it to say I am loving the Wedges, I have a stand in the works (only on paper so far), as of right now I will probably be keeping the bass section and the Wedges separate.

More later.

Best,
Ed

ebag4

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #562 on: 8 Nov 2014, 12:42 am »
Danny, these speakers are fantastic.  It is amazing how the Wedge takes you to the event .  They paint a very vivid picture.  Great speaker.   :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Thanks,
Ed

tasar

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #563 on: 8 Nov 2014, 01:25 am »
Ok Ed.... Your comments are teasing me. You mentioned a few days back the wedges " seem to be adding more information". Now you're lauding the "staging" more or less. What do you think about resolution, are they more detailed, can you hear into the instruments and voice ? Separation ? You have a small room with great diffusion, so it begs to ask, how resolved are they at lower SPLs <70 or so ? I love that color you chose, reminds me of the early Chev, Honduras maroon.

ebag4

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #564 on: 8 Nov 2014, 02:28 am »
Sorry Dave, not trying to tease.  I was listening to Dire Straits "In the gallery", near the end of the song Mark Knopfler really gets on the mic (or so it sounds) and sings "IN THE GALLERY", I nearly jumped out of my chair and said "oh my g.." out loud! That is what prompted me to post.  The speakers have great detail, my son commented that they have greater clarity and that they are more articulate than the V1s.  I haven't tried to dissect the sound, but I believe the added detail lends to the feeling you are in the audience, these speakers do that better than any speakers I have heard.  I will do a better job of letting you guys know what I am hearing in more detail as soon as I can, with comparison to the V1.

Captainhemo

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #565 on: 8 Nov 2014, 03:19 am »
 Cool stuff Ed..  I wonder how much of the  increased detail you guys are hearing  is from the  NEO3 tweeter w/platinum caps in the circuit ?  Plus, with it being  OB,  I'm sure  that is adding some dimension.

Mike or Danny (you guys have heard the Neo in both configs) , maybe you  can  comment as to the difference in detail between your Neo3's in the N3's  and the OB Neo 3's  inthe  Wedgies ?  Guess it may actually be hard to compare  as  the 2 different versions are in   totally different speaker configs ...  :dunno:

-jay

-jay

« Last Edit: 8 Nov 2014, 05:09 am by Captainhemo »

Ric Schultz

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #566 on: 8 Nov 2014, 07:14 pm »
This is Danny's best kit ever.  This has serious almost unlimited potential.  Yes, the Neo 3 on an open baffle will sound more detailed and real than in a box with a cup on the back.....but that is just the beginning.  You have 4 low mass 3 inch drivers doing the midrange (1.6 grams of moving mass each).  Low distortion low mass drivers equals super detailed sound.  Paralleling 4 of them allows more dynamics and lower distortion and allows them to play lower.  Having all the midranges on an open baffle gives more open sound.  Time aligning the mids to the tweets allows better integration of mid and tweet and so does the fact that he is using 12 db per octave xover on both the mids and tweets so he can just invert the tweeter and get really good phase and time alignment.  By having the mids bi-amped and not in a box you lower the distortion in a big way.  Your two way box speaker has a lot of pressure inside the box that compresses the sound and also the bass frequencies also distort the midrange.  This design is brilliant!!!

But as a perfectionistic tweaker, I always want more.  You can improve the speaker by using better baffling, wiring, xover parts, isolation and diffraction control.  I would use something like bamboo plywood for the front baffle and make the wing and base at least 1.5 inches thick.  Felting around the front opening of the waveguide will give better imaging.  Isolating the x-over from the panel will give lower distortion.  The Erse coils are good but I am now using 12 gauge Jantzen copper foil in wax coils on my midrange and the difference is really great.  Dynamics and detail galore.  I like the 16 gauge Jantzen for the tweeter.  I am using a Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for my speaker but the x-over frequency is about the same as Danny's speaker and so is the slope (basically a similar x-over) so I think the difference would be the same with the Wedgies.  What is so cool about an open baffle speaker is that you can change the xover parts and wiring so easily....not so in a box speaker......so the tweaking possibilities are endless. 

Taking it to another level would be to tri-amp the system.  I am designing a 2 way line level x-over that could be used with the wedgies and many other drivers/speakers.  It will have options to use it as a 6, 12, 18 or 24 db per octave xover (12 is what is in the Wedgies).  It will use DC coupled fet buffers and use the best caps and resistors money can buy.  Shunt regulated power supply powered by 130 watt transformer.  No switches or pots in the signal path.  This x-over should be the most transparent line level x-over ever developed (in theory, at least).  Removing the coil from the midranges (and all the other parts) will give the speaker even more dynamics, purity and transparency.  I should have it ready for shipping in about 3-4 months.  But even stock the Wedgie must be amazing as its design is light years ahead of most speakers.   

Danny, if you feel this last paragraph is "just advertising" and you want me to remove it.....let me know. 

Danny Richie

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #567 on: 8 Nov 2014, 11:18 pm »
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But as a perfectionistic tweaker, I always want more.  You can improve the speaker by using better baffling, wiring, xover parts, isolation and diffraction control.  I would use something like bamboo plywood for the front baffle and make the wing and base at least 1.5 inches thick.

Making the baffle that thick would likely have a negative effect on the 3" drivers. Even with a 3/4" baffle they need a pretty good sized radius on them or the through hole loads the driver. There is just not a lot of space between the driver and the through hole.

And they just don't have enough moving force to put any energy into the baffle. Especially in an open baffle. They just don't play down low enough to move much to begin with.

Plus the 3/4" baffle is the perfect thickness for the tweeter wave guide.

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Felting around the front opening of the waveguide will give better imaging.

Not much area there and the wave guide pretty much kills any surface reflection issues. And putting felt in the wave guide (I tried that) has a negative effect on the response. I don't think there is anything there to gain from it.

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Isolating the x-over from the panel will give lower distortion.


If the drivers had any real moving force or transmitted much to the baffle then there could be something there, but they don't. And they the crossover (if mounted right behind the drivers) is not subject to any box pressure changes since there is no box. Not much there to gain, but feel free.

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The Erse coils are good but I am now using 12 gauge Jantzen copper foil in wax coils on my midrange and the difference is really great.  Dynamics and detail galore.  I like the 16 gauge Jantzen for the tweeter.

Actually there is a reason that those inductors are so inexpensive even after shipping from Europe, and with a 5% duty added, brokerage fees, and a dealer mark up from PE. They are made in China with recycled Copper. They are on average only 94 to 95% Copper and the rest is just recycled waste.

It also explains why they sound so bad compared to the Erse inductors that are four 9's pure Copper and made in the USA.

If you want to step up to a foil inductor then the Erse or Alpha Core foil are top notch.

So, I'd stick with the Erse inductors myself.

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Taking it to another level would be to tri-amp the system.  I am designing a 2 way line level x-over that could be used with the wedgies and many other drivers/speakers.  It will have options to use it as a 6, 12, 18 or 24 db per octave xover (12 is what is in the Wedgies).  It will use DC coupled fet buffers and use the best caps and resistors money can buy.  Shunt regulated power supply powered by 130 watt transformer.  No switches or pots in the signal path.  This x-over should be the most transparent line level x-over ever developed (in theory, at least).  Removing the coil from the midranges (and all the other parts) will give the speaker even more dynamics, purity and transparency.  I should have it ready for shipping in about 3-4 months.  But even stock the Wedgie must be amazing as its design is light years ahead of most speakers.   

I don't think the 3" LGK drivers create a big enough back EMF to have much effect on the tweeter. But feel free to give it a try. Separating the 200Hz and down range to a different amp is a pretty big deal though.

Let me know when you're ready and I'll sell you a kit so you can start messing with it.  :green:

Ric Schultz

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #568 on: 9 Nov 2014, 12:19 am »
Danny,
I was not suggesting the baffle be thicker....only the base and the wing.  I suggested a more dense material (bamboo plywood) for the baffle.  One could also try 13 ply birch plywood or maybe solid oak or maple.  Three quarter inch MDF is not a "fast" material (it is lossy).  I know of no serious high end speaker manufacturers that use three quarter inch MDF baffles.....just not rigid or fast enough.  Another thing that could be done to make the baffle more rigid would be to add some material in the back of the baffle around the drivers....and not interfering with the back wave.  Like small pieces of 3/4 inch plywood glued on here and there.  Even though there is not a woofer making a shaking...he he...the midrange baffle needs to be as rigid and dead as possible.

The person that owns your first pair of Serenity 7 speakers added felt around the waveguide and says it sounds much more focused.  The sharp edges on the waveguide will reflect highs.

I don't know if an isolated x-over would sound better with your baffle but my mid/tweet baffle is three thicknesses (2.25 inches) of HDF with green glue and my x-over sounds better behind and below the mid baffle on the stand.  It is easy to try.....simply put some bubble wrap under the xover board and see if it makes a difference...if so then Herbies things would be nice to try too.

I know you do not like Jantzen but I have listened to the Jantzen foil coils (wax ones) and they are in another completely different league from the Erse coils that you use (directly comparing the two).  Maybe these newer coils from Jantzen (out only a couple of years) are made better than the older ones?  All I know is what I hear.

I agree about the non issue of back emf from the mids to the tweet....the reason for tri-amping is to get away from the lossy passive components.  When I went from the Erse coil you use to a 14 gauge Jantzen I got more dynamics and clarity......then going to a 12 gauge Jantzen brought even more dynamics and clarity.  But looking at the 12 gauge Jantzen.....what I see is a bunch of copper foil in a coil....obviously still choking the sound.  So, a line level x-over allows the midranges and tweeter to be driven directly from the amps....no coils, no caps, no resistors.  Should sound better as long as the line level xover is great (which, I hope, mine is).  If you have a simple speaker level passive x-over using the world's best components (silver duelunds caps, silver duelund chokes, etc.) then most line level x-overs will sound worse (since there are none that are really great).  But a great line level x-over could be the cat's meow.  We shall see.
« Last Edit: 9 Nov 2014, 11:40 pm by Ric Schultz »

Danny Richie

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #569 on: 9 Nov 2014, 12:56 am »
Ric, just let me know when you want to order one of the kits and I'll get one right out to you. And if you think you can make them sound even better then go for it.

mlundy57

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #570 on: 9 Nov 2014, 02:19 am »
Cool stuff Ed..  I wonder how much of the  increased detail you guys are hearing  is from the  NEO3 tweeter w/platinum caps in the circuit ?  Plus, with it being  OB,  I'm sure  that is adding some dimension.

Mike or Danny (you guys have heard the Neo in both configs) , maybe you  can  comment as to the difference in detail between your Neo3's in the N3's  and the OB Neo 3's  inthe  Wedgies ?  Guess it may actually be hard to compare  as  the 2 different versions are in   totally different speaker configs ...  :dunno:

-jay

-jay

Jay,

Just got my Wedges hooked back up. I have been using that system to burn in the X-Omni's. Now that they have about 100 hours on them I took them out and put the Wedges back in. Ahhhhh, there's that sound again.

I have a very hard time describing the differences in the tweeter applications, closed back and inside the cabinet of the N3's and open backed with a waveguide in the Wedges. I hear the speakers as a whole and can't separate out the tweeter unless I get really close to a speaker and that ruins the overall effect.

Both my N3's and Wedges have the same crossover components, Erse XQ inductors, Mills resistors and Sonicap capacitors with a platinum by-pass cap on each one so none of the differences are due to crossover component quality. Both use the Neo 3 PDR but in different applications. Four LGK's vs two M130's will have a difference so how much is from the difference in drivers and how much is from the design I can't really say.

As you know the N3's are very clean, clear and detailed. However, in my system the sound stage is pretty much defined by the height of the speakers and how far I have them spread apart. With the Wedges (which are a couple of feet closer together than the N3's) the sound stage is expansive in both height and width with the whole thing being just as clean and even more detailed than the N3's. You can hear the difference in most music, the higher the resolution and lower the dynamic compression of the recording the more evident the difference. Since I listen to primarily classical and jazz I can tell a difference in a lot of my music. It is also evident in some rock recordings like my 24/96 FLAC recording of Fleetwood Mac's "Never Going Back Again".  However, with a lot of my redbook rock and pop music I don't hear much difference in detail between the N3's and the Wedges. The expansiveness of the Wedges is constant, no matter what type of music I'm listening to.

One other difference between the two is that the N3's are complete by themselves. You do not need bass units or a subwoofer to fully enjoy the music. Not so with the Wedges. You must have some type of bass unit to fill out the bottom 3+ octaves but then that has never been a secret. 

I prefer my N3's to any other speaker I have ever heard except my Wedges even without the OB bass units. I can only imagine how much better the Wedges will sound with appropriate OB bass units.

That's pretty long winded and I'm still not sure I answered your question.

Mike

Captainhemo

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #571 on: 9 Nov 2014, 04:15 am »
No worries about   the length of the reply Mike, appreciate the effort.  Had a feeling it would be tough to compare just the tweeter config in a totally differnt speaker.  The diferences you describe are very similar to what I noticed when I switched from the  N3Tl's to the OB7's.  However, like Ric mentioned,  I imagine with the  extemely
lightweight drivers and the OB  Neo 3,  the differences are even more  evident

-jay

tasar

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #572 on: 11 Nov 2014, 05:16 pm »
Jay,

Just got my Wedges hooked back up. I have been using that system to burn in the X-Omni's. Now that they have about 100 hours on them I took them out and put the Wedges back in. Ahhhhh, there's that sound again.

I have a very hard time describing the differences in the tweeter applications, closed back and inside the cabinet of the N3's and open backed with a waveguide in the Wedges. I hear the speakers as a whole and can't separate out the tweeter unless I get really close to a speaker and that ruins the overall effect.

Both my N3's and Wedges have the same crossover components, Erse XQ inductors, Mills resistors and Sonicap capacitors with a platinum by-pass cap on each one so none of the differences are due to crossover component quality. Both use the Neo 3 PDR but in different applications. Four LGK's vs two M130's will have a difference so how much is from the difference in drivers and how much is from the design I can't really say.

As you know the N3's are very clean, clear and detailed. However, in my system the sound stage is pretty much defined by the height of the speakers and how far I have them spread apart. With the Wedges (which are a couple of feet closer together than the N3's) the sound stage is expansive in both height and width with the whole thing being just as clean and even more detailed than the N3's. You can hear the difference in most music, the higher the resolution and lower the dynamic compression of the recording the more evident the difference. Since I listen to primarily classical and jazz I can tell a difference in a lot of my music. It is also evident in some rock recordings like my 24/96 FLAC recording of Fleetwood Mac's "Never Going Back Again".  However, with a lot of my redbook rock and pop music I don't hear much difference in detail between the N3's and the Wedges. The expansiveness of the Wedges is constant, no matter what type of music I'm listening to.

One other difference between the two is that the N3's are complete by themselves. You do not need bass units or a subwoofer to fully enjoy the music. Not so with the Wedges. You must have some type of bass unit to fill out the bottom 3+ octaves but then that has never been a secret. 

I prefer my N3's to any other speaker I have ever heard except my Wedges even without the OB bass units. I can only imagine how much better the Wedges will sound with appropriate OB bass units.

That's pretty long winded and I'm still not sure I answered your question.

Mike

Mike.... Many thanks, always good to hear from a classic guy. Though good jazz and blues recordings can be had, classic is tough and often with older less dynamic Redbook. Room treatment goes along way, but I still am wanting for better staging and separation. Your description goes a long way to say the wedgies glean some finer detail. Thanks for the writeupmsir !

Dave

ntell411

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #573 on: 14 Nov 2014, 04:40 pm »
Thank you for welcoming me to AC. My question could have been better worded by asking: is it feasible to use the same 3 eight inch woofers in an open baffle configuration with 2 of them handling the lower bass (50hz down) and 1 of them handling the mid and upper bass (50-250hz) all driven by the same servo amp? I would think this would allow better quality lower bass as well as more impact/slam of upper and mid bass. I apologize if this has been answered already.

Danny Richie

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #574 on: 14 Nov 2014, 04:59 pm »
Thank you for welcoming me to AC. My question could have been better worded by asking: is it feasible to use the same 3 eight inch woofers in an open baffle configuration with 2 of them handling the lower bass (50hz down) and 1 of them handling the mid and upper bass (50-250hz) all driven by the same servo amp? I would think this would allow better quality lower bass as well as more impact/slam of upper and mid bass. I apologize if this has been answered already.

First of all that is not possible with a single amp.

Secondly, you really don't gain anything by doing that, and you loose 1/3rd of your output capability in the lower ranges. And it's no problem for these woofers to play up to 250Hz and do so with greater speed and resolution than non-servo drivers.

And you already have some flexibility to change damping and extension in the lower range.

NachoTime

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #575 on: 21 Nov 2014, 03:19 am »
Greetings Danny,

Do you have any plans to offer either of the larger versions (such as the MMMMTMMMM) discussed earlier?
Are you still leaning towards a pair of 8" OB servo subs to fill out the bottom end?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on these.  Shall I just PM you if interested in ordering a kit/flatpack?

Danny Richie

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #576 on: 21 Nov 2014, 03:19 pm »
Greetings Danny,

Do you have any plans to offer either of the larger versions (such as the MMMMTMMMM) discussed earlier?
Are you still leaning towards a pair of 8" OB servo subs to fill out the bottom end?

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on these.  Shall I just PM you if interested in ordering a kit/flatpack?

There will be a MMTMMMMMMMMMMM version that is a full floor standing model. And I'm thinking that the 12" servo subs will be a good match for them and can be a separate tower placed near them on each side.

A matching lower wedge with three 8" servo subs is coming too. This will be the matching base for the Wedgie. 

mlundy57

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #577 on: 21 Nov 2014, 06:58 pm »
A matching lower wedge with three 8" servo subs is coming too. This will be the matching base for the Wedgie.

Danny,

What type of configuration are you thinking about for the three 8" drivers?

Mike

Danny Richie

Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #578 on: 21 Nov 2014, 07:20 pm »
Danny,

What type of configuration are you thinking about for the three 8" drivers?

Mike

Two on the outside and one on the inside.

mlundy57

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Re: Something new that sounds incredible
« Reply #579 on: 21 Nov 2014, 07:42 pm »
Two on the outside and one on the inside.

Not sure I'm getting the picture. Do you mean two vertical front firing drivers and one side firing?