AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Digital Amplifier Company Owners => Topic started by: Wind Chaser on 8 Dec 2017, 07:34 pm
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I kid you not, despite having always been somewhat partial to tubes and tube amps, single ended triodes in particular; I think it’s safe to say once and for all I am done with tubes!
Why? Because the very best sounding tube amps (SETs) are not up to the task of properly driving my speakers. My speakers (Spatial M3 Turbo S) produce 94 decibels of sound pressure with just one watt, so it’s not an issue of power or a lack thereof. No it’s more of a matter of control and stability. The SET (a SET, any SET) cannot cope with the Spatial load, and as a consequence it sadly lacks bass and the little bass there is, well let’s say it’s not what anyone would call good bass. This isn’t something that can be fixed with a sub or by other means of augmentation. Crappy bass is crappy bass. Then there were also significant issues with respect to soundstaging and imaging; the very thing tube amps (SETs in particular) are supposed to excel at.
All of this was made manifest by a very small and inexpensive Texas Instruments TPA3116 Class D amp. At first I was shocked, absolutely gobsmacked by how much better it mated with my speakers than the much more expensive tube amp. In comparison the bass is much more present, deeper, defined and tonally richer with the Class D amp. Also the issues the tubes had with respect soundstaging and imaging vanished. Instead an upfront in your face aggressive presentation, the Class D amp sounded far more relaxed and at ease with much better localization and spatial cues. I’m not talking about a subtle or incremental difference, no I’m talking in terms of sheer musicality, Class D crushes the tubes in virtually every respect making music much more enjoyable.
That’s quite a feat for solid state amp, never mind an inexpensive Class D amp that can be had for small fraction of what the Coincident tube amp costs. So it seemed clear to me the way going forward would definitely be Class D.
Enter the Maraschino King mono-blocks. I’ve had these amps for a few months now. They are quite small, but not as small as The TPA3116. Unlike the TPA3116, the Maraschino Kings are fully balanced, much more powerful and absolutely dead quiet. They are also much more musically refined than the 3116 and they don't shut down when pushed to the limit The control they have over the 4 x 15” Spatial drivers is amazing. Even with the volume turned up super loud at the threshold of clipping, the 4 large woofers hardly appear to be in motion. And because these amps are mono-blocks, I am able to separate each channel well away from each other and place them next to the speakers and run short speaker cables... something that makes stereo amps in one chassis seem like such a compromise.
These amps do not exhibit any characteristics in the way of their own flavor. There is nothing I can point to and say that’s a trait of the amp. No they just get out of the way and amplify the signal without adding or taking anything away. From the lowest low to the highest high with everything else in between is perfectly intact, nothing seems or sounds accentuated or artificial, and nothing sounds diminished. That’s just what an amplifier is supposed to do. They sound absolutely neutral.
I like the fact that I don’t ever have to wait for these amps to warm up. They are so energy efficient I leave them on 24/7. Waiting for an amp to warm up is now a thing of the past. If I only want to listen to one song, the system is up and ready to roll.
In short, these amps are so good I’m not the slightest bit curious about anything else out there. If you are a tube aficionado like I was, you’d do well to check these out. Chances are you’ll like them a lot more than your beloved tube amp. :wink:
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I like the fact that I don’t ever have to wait for these amps to warm up. They are so energy efficient I leave them on 24/7. Waiting for an amp to warm up is now a thing of the past. If I only want to listen to one song, the system is up and ready to roll.
I agree. With Class D, it's finally possible to leave the entire rig running 24/7. Same consistent sound 24/7. I find my ears agree with the sound more when the system has been warmed up. More liquid and smooth.
The energy footprint and the bill is also much better.
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I am also a tube lover and the DAC amps are the only digital amps I've heard that I could live with. They are really great sounding and the best digital amps I've heard.
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When our member Trung
sold gave away his Dodd monoblock 300b amps about a week ago, I considered buying them, but...
I've been so enamored with Jeremy's TDA7297 amp that I didn't even make an offer. I've got a pair of EL84 amps that Gary D built for me that I'll keep as log as I can hear, but I'm not in the market to buy. Chip amps are the real deal, and the bang for the buck is unmatchable.
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Wind Chaser,
Do you mind if I ask ,what are using for your pre-amp .. Were you using the same pre-amp with you tube amp.??
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I've owned several tube/SS amps and preamps over my 2 decades of fooling around with this stuff. I went class D about 4 years ago and haven't missed anything from the other designs. My first class D product was a Bel Canto integrated but am now running Channel Islands class D monoblocks fed by a fully digital preamp! Unequivocally the best sound I've achieved to date. I have no further plans to change anything.
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Wind Chaser,
Do you mind if I ask ,what are using for your pre-amp .. Were you using the same pre-amp with you tube amp.??
+1!
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I put my VAC PA 100/100 up for sale as soon as I heard my first DAC amp, a big 'ol Cherry PLus. It was obvious how much information simply wasn't coming out of the tube amp compared to the DAC, which had such vastly superior resolution top to bottom. Especially bottom. Yeah...the bottom of those big transformers...
The new generation Maraschino is quite a bit better, though, with greater refinement up top and a tighter but not so stump-pulley bass as the old amps.
I never turn mine off and the sleep function works perfectly. The first click of the preamp and they both jump to life and as Wind said they are off and running immediately. It's kinda weird to not really think about your amps for months on end, unless it's "Dayummmm..."
I'm between preamps now and have drafted in a 30 year old Forte solid state pre and the amps still sound great. Thinking Brooklyn Dac + direct to amps...
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I put my VAC PA 100/100 up for sale as soon as I heard my first DAC amp, a big 'ol Cherry PLus. It was obvious how much information simply wasn't coming out of the tube amp compared to the DAC, which had such vastly superior resolution top to bottom. Especially bottom. Yeah...the bottom of those big transformers...
The new generation Maraschino is quite a bit better, though, with greater refinement up top and a tighter but not so stump-pulley bass as the old amps.
I never turn mine off and the sleep function works perfectly. The first click of the preamp and they both jump to life and as Wind said they are off and running immediately. It's kinda weird to not really think about your amps for months on end, unless it's "Dayummmm..."
I'm between preamps now and have drafted in a 30 year old Forte solid state pre and the amps still sound great. Thinking Brooklyn Dac + direct to amps...
I was really unsure how things would sound and also the functionality of a digital pre w/class D. I couldn't have imagined the end results! Try the Brooklyn...
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Class D has improved remarkably over the years. My current primary setup is a Devialet 400 connected to a pair of Dynaudio Focus 360 speakers. The Devialet all in one approach makes a lot of sense, in that it is has a DAC, preamp, and power amp are all in one package. Hi resolution digital symphonic recordings are reproduced with an amazing sense of realism.
Still, some of my friends prefer the tube gear driving the Focus 360's. I also own a set of custom 110 watt mono-block power amps that sport a quad of 1625 output tubes, driven by a pair of 6BL7 input/driver tubes. The preamp is a Thomas Meyer 6AH4 clone, complete with transformer coupled output to the power amp. For tubes, the setup is remarkably quiet, and very dynamic. A friend who is a musician prefers the tube setup to the Devialet with live rock/blues recordings.
So, in summary, it's safe to say the the current offerings of Class D can and do provide excellent performance and satisfaction, along with trouble free usage. Tubes have their strong points from a sonic perspective as well, but they do need extra care to maintain optimum performance.
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Try the Brooklyn...
200w HDPlex is on the way...
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200w HDPlex is on the way...
Awesome! Good luck!
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I am also a tube lover and the DAC amps are the only digital amps I've heard that I could live with. They are really great sounding and the best digital amps I've heard.
Since these amps receive an analogue input signal and amplify in the analogue domain, I don't think they can be classified as digital amps.
Here's an insightful look at the breakdown of the various approaches to amplification (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-survey-of-amplifier-types-tas-217-1//). The article was written six years ago.
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I've been so enamored with Jeremy's TDA7297 amp that I didn't even make an offer. I've got a pair of EL84 amps that Gary D built for me that I'll keep as log as I can hear, but I'm not in the market to buy. Chip amps are the real deal, and the bang for the buck is unmatchable.
I was so taken back by how much better the TI amp sounded over the Coincident SET I considered just keeping it and calling it a day, but it was too noisy and it would shut down or go into protection mode if pushed hard. The Maraschino's answer both those problems and are a whole lot more refined and musical. :thumb:
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Wind Chaser,
Do you mind if I ask ,what are using for your pre-amp .. Were you using the same pre-amp with you tube amp.??
The source (sans preamp) was the same for both the Coincident SET and the Texas Instruments board. I'm now using a Nuprime DAC-10 which has a very clean integrated preamp. I know it's hard to comprehend, much less accept that a $20 amp could kick to the curb a very highly regarded tube amp with some of the best tubes available. :whip:
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I put my VAC PA 100/100 up for sale as soon as I heard my first DAC amp, a big 'ol Cherry PLus. It was obvious how much information simply wasn't coming out of the tube amp compared to the DAC, which had such vastly superior resolution top to bottom.
Yeah, for all the love tube amps get, what's up with that?
The new generation Maraschino is quite a bit better, though, with greater refinement up top and a tighter but not so stump-pulley bass as the old amps.
I haven't heard the original Cherry's, but find the Maraschinos do great justice to the bottom end. On the Spatial M3ts it seems almost as if I have infinite power reserves as I have as of yet been unable to clip the Maraschinos. And believe me, it's not for a lack of trying. :lol:
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Wind,
If you are considering moving to the Triode Masters, I just asked Tommy how the the amps do with a 16 ohm load.
He says the Maraschino loves 16 ohms - THD super low, like < 0.0009% (not official DAC statement - just a snippet from a conversation...)
fyi
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Class D has improved remarkably over the years...
About 10 years ago I heard 4 Nuforce mono-blocks and to be honest, I thought they were okay, but nothing really special. We compared them to some old vintage SAE amps designed by the late legendary James Bongiorno and we could hardly detect a difference in SQ.
Tubes have their strong points from a sonic perspective as well...
Not so sure about that any more.
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Wind,
If you are considering moving to the Triode Masters, I just asked Tommy how the the amps do with a 16 ohm load.
I did consider the Triode Masters, but I chose to put that money (and then some) into cable upgrades. The next step up will be either the X-1, or the X-2, or perhaps even the Lumina.
As far as the Maraschinos go, impedance whether it be high or low is a non issue.
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I did consider the Triode Masters, but I chose to put that money (and then some) into cable upgrades. The next step up will be either the X-1, or the X-2, or perhaps even the Lumina.
As far as the Maraschinos go, impedance whether it be high or low is a non issue.
The X-2 would get my vote. It uses probably the best tweeter/mid on the planet. IMO it's Spatial's 'home run' speaker.
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I agree with Wind, no more tube amps. I have owned my DAC Cherry amps for close to three years now. I did try a couple of HQ Set amps since then, but the DAC's held their own.
I tried many Class D amps over the years, even the NC 1200 amps, but the cheap chip amps and DAC amps sounded the best. If critical SQ, DAC amps will fill the bill. These are my last amps.
My buddy Rex says the same. I believe he has owned more amps than anyone here on AC. Rex even sold his LIO after getting the STM. He said the DAC STM had more detail and bigger sondstage.
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I'm using Oddysey Stratos mono blocks to power my (now vintage) VR-4 SR next gen III Hovland speakers. My plan has been to purchase a SET amp with attenuator to power the top modules, and use the Stratos to power the lower modules. After reading this thread I'm thinking I need to re-evaluate my game plan. For any of you that own the Cherry stereo amp, will the binding posts accept larger banana speaker cable connectors? 4 full size banana connectors seem large considering the amount of space between the binding posts on the back of the Cherry Stereo amp. (I'm using Morrow Audio SP-6's). Also, do you miss the "bloom" characteristic of a SET amp?....Thanks!
- Martin
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I own Golden Cherry amps that I use on my front channel speakers (shared between 2 channel and HT), a King Maraschino for my center channel, and two Inline Marachinos for my rear surround speakers. I am using 60v power supplies for all the amps. Tommy has created a superb product.
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WOW Greg, you are amply amplified!
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The source (sans preamp) was the same for both the Coincident SET and the Texas Instruments board. I'm now using a Nuprime DAC-10 which has a very clean integrated preamp. I know it's hard to comprehend, much less accept that a $20 amp could kick to the curb a very highly regarded tube amp with some of the best tubes available. :whip:
I use a modded DAC-10 as well, and the combination with 60V Kings is as clear and clean as mountain water. I needed real "cajones" for my Avalon Opus, which are very transparent, resolving and quite a tough load. The Ms have no problem at all driving them, and the sound is liquid as well as astonishingly detailed.
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To martinr
I bi-wire VMPS Super Tower Rs with spades and bananas with no problem.
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My buddy Rex says the same. I believe he has owned more amps than anyone here on AC. Rex even sold his LIO after getting the STM. He said the DAC STM had more detail and bigger soundstage.
I haven't heard the LIO, but I can't say I'm surprised. Given the price of the LIO and the accolades it has received, it sure makes the Maraschinos seem like a bargain. :thumb:
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Do you miss the "bloom" characteristic of a SET amp?
I'm not sure what you mean by "bloom" but I will say that there isn't any aspect or quality of the SET sound that I feel I am missing. In short anything the SET did well, the Maraschinos do better, including bodily presence, 3 dimensional space, scale and top end air. These amps leave every tube amp I've ever heard or owned in the dust. :wave:
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I use a modded DAC-10 as well, and the combination with 60V Kings is as clear and clean as mountain water. I needed real cajones for my Avalon Opus, which are very transparent, resolving and a tough load. No problem at all.
I'm approaching close to a 1000 hours on both the DAC and amps... I don't know if it's the DAC or the amps or a combination of both, but the end result seems to keep improving.
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Since these amps receive an analogue input signal and amplify in the analogue domain, I don't think they can be classified as digital amps.
Here's an insightful look at the breakdown of the various approaches to amplification (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-survey-of-amplifier-types-tas-217-1//). The article was written six years ago.
The audio signal is internally represented digitally, so this is a nomenclature "gray area". We've even discussed changing the name of Digital Amp Co to Cherry Amp Co, but then the DAC DAC would be the CAC DAC. Not as cool 8).
Another interesting fact is that both clocked and non-clocked (purely combinatorial) logic is used in the process (Classic Cherry, Maraschino, MEGAschino). Yes, analog-in, analog-out. Back in the 90s and early 2000s, we developed clocked digital modulation techniques (digital input), both open and closed loop. Open-loop "direct digital" performance was respectable, but just not as good. For example, we get almost 20dB more dynamic range and an order of magnitude lower distortion with our newer technology.
Good catch, though.
Thanks as always (:
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I'm approaching close to a 1000 hours on both the DAC and amps... I don't know if it's the DAC or the amps or a combination of both, but the end result seems to keep improving.
Ahhhhh. "Break in"....
Well, based on re-measurement results being IDENTICAL when measuring Classic Cherry and Maraschino Amps from months to years old (and in some cases, shipped around the world and back).... Same for DACs. No difference in measured performance when re-testing. Those that have known me over the years have probably heard/read my standard speech about measurements at some point. :o
My theory is that "what's changing is" your awareness of detail that was previously suppressed (buried under noise, coated by distortion, rolled off, etc.).
Thanks for your kind post, and glad you're enjoying our products!
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When our member Trung sold gave away his Dodd monoblock 300b amps about a week ago, I considered buying them, but...
I've been so enamored with Jeremy's TDA7297 amp that I didn't even make an offer. I've got a pair of EL84 amps that Gary D built for me that I'll keep as log as I can hear, but I'm not in the market to buy. Chip amps are the real deal, and the bang for the buck is unmatchable.
Just mentioning that Cherry Amps are NOT based on pre-fab modules or "chip amps". We design our patented and proprietary amplifiers from scratch.
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Just mentioning that Cherry Amps are NOT based on pre-fab modules or "chip amps". We design our patented and proprietary amplifiers from scratch.
And that's why they are so damn good extraordinary! You can't push the envelope and expect superior results by doing what everyone else is doing. There's no substitute for brilliance and ingenuity; without that even a million dollars in R&D won't make a difference. :lol:
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I'm not sure what you mean by "bloom" but I will say that there isn't any aspect or quality of the SET sound that I feel I am missing. In short anything the SET did well, the Maraschinos do better, including bodily presence, 3 dimensional space, scale and top end air. These amps leave every tube amp I've ever heard or owned in the dust. :wave:
Thanks for the response Wind Chaser!
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I just finished listening to two incredible pieces of music, Martynaz Levickis Theme From La Forza Del Destino and Meditation by Nigel Hess. I’m stunned beyond words. :D
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Late to the party, but many congrats Windy for "finally" coming to Class D. I've been running Class D mono-blocks for several years and last spring upgraded from the original Channel Island Audio D-100's with single ended inputs to tiny Temple Audio 70 watt XLR input mono-blocks. Just as you stated, leaving them on 24/7 and being in mono-block configuration are wonderful ideals realized. Not fretting over (expensive) interconnects* (my new mono-blocks are internally balanced with XLR inputs) or tube rolling are additional pluses. Here in Michigan the amp heat could be welcomed in the winter, but saving on electricity (even with our solar panels) year round should always be another plus.
In response to others, the upstream gear should also be of balanced design to take full advantage of Class D. Benchmark makes the point that vanishingly low distortion is only possible via balanced construction. Gear that is inherently balanced cost more to build (being dual mono) but will be quieter. My simple system now is 100% balanced.
*The best XLR cables (made by professional companies) I could find cost around $50/pair so no need to skimp on length. Being an audio old fart, just can't accept the concept of boutique wire, IMO it's simply a case of the emperor's new clothes. XLR cables need no shielding (no worry about crossing wires or having extra lengths rolled up) and have better connectors.
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This post is a reminder for me to comment on XLR cables, shielding, and CMRR....
:D
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That’s going to be an interesting discussion. I recently acquired two new and very different pairs of interconnect cable. One is 12’ lengths of a well regarded balanced cable terminated with XLR plugs; the other 2 meter lengths of single ended cable terminated with RCA plugs. I’m not going to give anything away just yet ... but I will tell all at a later date. :D
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JLM,
I mostly agree regardng "boutique wire". However, shielding on balanced interconnects is good to have. We've measured the difference between noise performance with different wires, even balanced. This was done out of curiosity to see how close the audio signal can come to a switching power supply without affecting noise performance. The input stage of most balanced products subtracts neg from pos and has a finite Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR). This allows some noise to "get through" the input stage, and once it's there, you can't get rid of it. You can filter out RF, but there's no such thing as a perfect filter. The other issue is GND, which is connected through the shield of the wire. This is a necessary connection, but this subject has been covered well by others. Here's some good reference info from Rane:
http://www.rane.com/note151.html
Thanks for your post.
-Tommy O
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"Life's too short to be changing tubes"
-Art S / Allentown PA
My neighbor Art who sadly passed away in 2013 was a former surgeon and audiophile. He was a tube amp fan for several decades. He had boxes and boxes of tubes, and many amps. Fancy, high dollar amps. He was biased against Class-D for the usual reasons - he was told they weren't any good. He hadn't heard a Class-D amp in his life, until mine. He was astounded, and that was with my early designs, which only morphed into higher performance. He loved having deep, clean bass. He loved the black background and low distortion. He loved the extended bandwidth and fast transient response. Most of all, he loved CLEAN sound. He was also a fan of nostalgia audio, but really appreciated the practical aspects of my amps, too, like reliability and high performance for the money. Cherry Amps aren't just any Class-D. The old Class-D, from the module crowd, is like a Toyota Prius compared to Cherry Amp, the Tesla of amplifiers!
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In short, these amps are so good I’m not the slightest bit curious about anything else out there. If you are a tube aficionado like I was, you’d do well to check these out. Chances are you’ll like them a lot more than your beloved tube amp. :wink:
the magic that the stereo maraschino has - is everything i wished i could hear from the various iterations of tube amplifiers that i have had throughout the years - it may not have the last bit of resolution and slam- but who cares - magic and musicality take precedence over everything else
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I too run and love the Class D sound that Tommy and Digital Amplifier Company produce, having a Classic Cherry. But I have begun switching over to a tube amp in the cold winter months that S.E. Michigan has. Tube amps need care and planning, and tube choice very important to get the best sound from them!!
Plus four KT-120s emit enough heat to take the chill from my cave, as my heat vent somewhat cut off from the room. And room heaters make too much noise so I make do for 5 months or so. BUT of course once the weather breaks its like Christmas in July ... or April as the Cherry once again takes its rightful place ruling the roost! Its like getting a new Cherry amp every Spring, and that in itself warms my heart.
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- it may not have the last bit of resolution and slam - but who cares - magic and musicality take precedence over everything else.
I can't imagine more resolution or slam being a good thing. There comes a point where enough is enough and anything more is obtrusive and exaggeration.
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Follow down the rabbit hole:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156310.msg1673451#msg1673451
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These threads on Audio Circle also mention tubes vs Cherry....
"The Honeymoon Ain't Over Yet..."
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156310.0
"Does the Cherry Amp sound like tubes ????"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107837.0
"Stereo Maraschino (King Version)"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149310.0
"Switching from tubes to Cherry -- benefits"
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166206.0