Odyssey turntable

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xsb7244

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Odyssey turntable
« on: 7 Apr 2014, 11:19 pm »
The only thing missing from Klaus is a turntable. 

klaus@odyssey

Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #1 on: 10 Apr 2014, 05:14 am »
Thinking about this one for years !!!!!!!!!

TAULISA

Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #2 on: 10 Apr 2014, 11:18 am »
 What about assembling something cool such as this, Klaus !
Just Kidding !




Hank

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #3 on: 10 Apr 2014, 11:47 am »
Interesting indeed.  Lot's of competition at both entry level and unaffordable.  Would need a unique feature - probably based on I.P.
Hmmm...

loki1957

Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #4 on: 10 Apr 2014, 12:01 pm »
Get Rusty started on it.

NavyDoc

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #5 on: 11 Apr 2014, 04:11 pm »
That would be cool....big bang for the buck.

lazydays

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #6 on: 18 Apr 2014, 03:45 am »
What about assembling something cool such as this, Klaus !
Just Kidding !


just some thoughts rolling thru my head, and I know some you have already heard a couple times yet.

* a decoupled direct drive would be great, but also a very hard one to make right and yet be affordable. So the next best thing is a belt drive using either rayon, Dacron, or pure silk drive string (no belts per say).

* the motor is an issue, and most are substandard before they are even wired up. The accuracy of a stepping motor or maybe an AC pulse code servo motor with a tack drive built into it (usually standard issue with the better ones). I would prefer a DC motor over an AC, but that becomes an issue in itself. This tach would be supplemented with  6400 line encoder built into the bottom of the platter. The electronic drive (most are toy like) would read and compare both encoders and adjust on the fly. Sounds complicated, but is rather simple in the end. The tach on the stepping motor is standard issue anyway, and would be used to keep the speed constant; while the other would set the actual pace.

* platter can be an issue here. I like heavy dampened metal ones that are built in a series of isolations layers. A spindle diameter of about 30mm using a Moglice sleeve bearing, and a grade 10 ceramic ball bearing that's about 12mm in diameter. This setup should last a couple life times if the spindle is ground right. This bushing is even better than the typical Oillite bearing seen in many high end tables, and can actually be moulded to fit the shaft with about .000050" shrinkage, but that's a little too tight. Two drops of light spindle oil will be all the lube it needs for hours and hours of usage, plus it's a much quieter bearing than typical bronze. The inverted ceramic thrust bearing would ride in a carbide cup that's ground and lapped for a low single digit surface finish. This cup would fit in a pocket that is also loose. It would be epoxied in place on final assembly for a perfect alignment with perhaps a three tenth arc second error due to shrinkage of the epoxy.

* the base would be of either soft steel or aluminum using a three point setup to assure a perfect plain. Setup to allow the use of three tone arms with an infinite adjustment to gain a near perfect alignment and yet be able to use a tone arm upto 14" (if there ever is one). The tone arm bracket would be isolated from metal to metal contact with the base. Maybe using something like .125" Turcite that is machine to be dead perpendicular with the spindle / platter top. All this sounds hard to do, but is actually very easy to do. The motor would be free of the table, but would also set atop on isolator. One issue that's very hard to deal with when using an AC motor is the 60Hz vibration that will travel thru everything electrical. There are anti vibration devices to counter action this problem.

* the electronic drive would mimic the one used by Acoustic Signature (still the best). I would have a read out from the spindle encoder for a finite adjustment.

To build this table, you'll need a good gauge quality grinder. (Studer or Browne & Sharpe) The base can be machined on a cnc machine center as long as the machine is properly aligned and leveled (80% are not). The spindles can be roughed out of A2 and hardened & ground. But you could also pretty much do everything off a 30mm gauge pin, but wouldn't be fun to do. Interestingly, you could also make the tone arm mount out of strait brass. This metal has a very low sonic threshold. You could even do the base in brass, but your looking at a $150 piece of brass, minimum. There's another way to do this starting out with a four inch thick piece of composite granite, but granite has it's own set of issues that hard to work with.
gary   

klaus@odyssey

Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #7 on: 21 Apr 2014, 09:23 am »
The problem is that the minimum I'd like to do on a tt design will price me right out of my own market...and there are some good designs out there.  In short, I'd be one of the guys, and not the 800 lbs gorilla in that particular price point that I have  gotten so  used to........

Hank

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #8 on: 21 Apr 2014, 02:48 pm »
"The problem is that the minimum I'd like to do on a tt design will price me right out of my own market"
That's my fear since I read the first post in this topic.

xsb7244

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #9 on: 21 Apr 2014, 05:20 pm »
lazydays,

What turntable are you using?

lazydays

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #10 on: 21 Apr 2014, 08:09 pm »
lazydays,

What turntable are you using?

I actually have four now. The Final Tool is my favorite, and is pretty much as delivered. There's also one from Opera, that I've pretty much rebuilt right out of the box. Won't run with the Final Tool. Build quality is not as good, and they took a couple short cuts in the design. The platter is Formica, and that is an issue by itself. The drive motor is a cheap Chinese one, and you can tell it right away. It came with monofilament fishing line to drive the platter, and this was a major problem. I switched over to Dacron, and this made a world of difference. I use an 8mm grade 5 ceramic ball bearing for the thrust, but it came with a cheap steel one. The spindle finish was a double digit micro, and I made a new one out of A2 that was ground after hardening to fit their bearing sleeve after I honed it. I do run a very light instrument oil in it even though it uses an Oilite bearing. The table is a feed back monster, and most of it is low order and very hard to track down. The others are a Music Hall #5 and a Technics SL1200 MK.2 project that I'm about to take by the horns. If that one pans out, it will be a dedicated mono table for jazz playback. If not, it will be setup in the Devine Ms G's living room so she can listen to The Famous Blue Raincoat in all it's glory! Otherwise she gets the #5 as I hate it.

You may have noticed that I made reference to a "stepping motor." These motors come in all sizes, and are known as the most accurate motors you can buy right now. Prices have dropped dramatically. When you have the motor in your hands and turn the spindle, it will fell very rough like it has a bad set of bearings. But actually what you are felling is the pulses that the built in encoder counts. The faster it runs the smoother it gets. The encoder device I would place under the platter is similar to the one in the motor, and would be used as the master to control the slave encoder. It's pretty easy to do, and can either be epoxied in place or bolted to the platter and aligned (should be within .0005" or less). Sounds complicated, but it's very easy to do. The Moglice bushings are out there on the market, but also can be molded in place. The need very little lube, and depend on area contact. The spindle will literally last forever, and the bushing should last about 10,000 hours minimum . I switched out the cheap steel ball bearing on both tables to grade five ceramic ball bearings (they were actually used when I got them, and came out of a spindle bearing set used on a G&L machine center). There is a better bearing setup, but it's also a lot harder to build. Plus it requires the platter O.D. to be ground true after installation.
gary

xsb7244

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #11 on: 22 Apr 2014, 05:35 pm »
lazydays,

Lots of us own the Technics SL1200 MK2.  What changes will you be making to the Technics?  A used Technics SL1200 Mk2 is not that expensive and it is good to upgrade it.

lazydays

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #12 on: 22 Apr 2014, 06:11 pm »
lazydays,

Lots of us own the Technics SL1200 MK2.  What changes will you be making to the Technics?  A used Technics SL1200 Mk2 is not that expensive and it is good to upgrade it.

I'll replace the tonearm (still up in the air), and do most of the KAB mods. There are good things about it and some seriously bad things as well. Interestingly, I have about twenty dollars in the table, and it works just fine. Mine was an international version, and uses an odd ball power cable. That will be scrapped right away. I'd love to replace the plinth, but who makes one? On the otherhand I never will expect the Technics to run with the Final Tool or the Opera.
gary

xsb7244

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #13 on: 22 Apr 2014, 07:48 pm »
lazydays,

Applied Fidelity makes custom plinths.  Jim Howard is suppose to make a plinth to replace Technics SL1200 MK2.  http://www.appliedfidelity.com/

If you are into this kind of stuff and only a few guys have done it, replace the Technics plinth, remove top plate and bottom rubber base.  http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?p=160098

xsb7244

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #14 on: 22 Apr 2014, 08:07 pm »
lazydays,

Here is one more.  This guy modded his Technics SL1200 clone including replacing the plinth.  Very nice.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/249849-does-anyone-know-direct-drive-turntable-suspension.html

xsb7244

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xsb7244

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #16 on: 22 Apr 2014, 10:20 pm »

loki1957

Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #17 on: 23 Apr 2014, 11:50 am »

lazydays

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #18 on: 23 Apr 2014, 05:58 pm »
thinking about a new turntable and what it would take to build it, I came up with some interesting thoughts:

* The basic frame design and tone arm mounting system would involve about three hours of machine time to be finished on a modern machine center that would hold all dimensions in .00075" window. Or roughly $800 of machine time. (500 unit lot). The spindle has about fifteen minutes machine time on a cnc lathe. Then must be hardened, and ground. Or about $75 max cost on a 500 piece lot. (most of the cost is in the grinding operations [2 operations]). The platter is about ten minute lathe operation, and then a remachine operation that that adds another ten minutes. The second operation would also add in the threaded holes and pilot for the second encoder. The moglice sleeve bearing is actually glued in place, and honed to fit the spindle (takes about thirty minutes to glue it in place and hone it, plus another thirty minutes to clean all that graphite off your hands). The feet and some other parts can be bought on the open market.

* the motors are out there as an off the shelf item for various costs, and degrees of quality. Pretty much figure it's coming out of japan as they have the market sewed up on quality servo motors and drives. You don't need the quality of a Fanuc in a turntable, but electrically they are the best. Still if you went with a Fanuc, they would also design the drive to handle the feedback from the tach and encoder for you. That's a huge money saving item.

Anyway I think you could build a table with VPI HRX quality for about half the cost on the sales floor.
gary

xsb7244

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Re: Odyssey turntable
« Reply #19 on: 23 Apr 2014, 07:03 pm »
Aluminati Sound is a machine shop for your diy turntable.
Also, member Sk8Ter from Lenco Heaven has a full machine shop for doing these kind of things.