[Wayner]

I hope the bearing is in close tolerence enough not to have much of a gap, bearing has gap would wobble and cause excessive wear. The purpose of the lubricant in turntable bearing is to decrease or eliminate friction. Light weight oil would not last as long on metal surface. Mobil 1 synthetic will leave a thin film of oil bond to the metal, that's what I use. Again, the lubricant is not to fill any gap in close tolerence bearing, it is to decrease, minimize, or eliminate friction between metal.

Turntable bearing won't generate heat like a high speed motor, anytime you rub metal together will generate heat, but it's not a concern.

There will always be a gap, even if it's .00025". As the gap gets smaller, the oil viscosity thins. None of my motors require any lube, including my Hurst, but if the VPI Classis motor requires it, then by all means, it probably should be lubed once a year. Most motors of this size have sealed oil impregnated bearings. If your (other brand) table doesn't mention oiling the motor, you should consult the manufacturer before doing so, as this may be harmful to the motor (gets into the windings, pole pieces and attracts dust which will make the motor slow down).

Wayner

[Ericus Rex]

I hope the bearing is in close tolerence enough not to have much of a gap, bearing has gap would wobble and cause excessive wear. The purpose of the lubricant in turntable bearing is to decrease or eliminate friction. Light weight oil would not last as long on metal surface. Mobil 1 synthetic will leave a thin film of oil bond to the metal, that's what I use. Again, the lubricant is not to fill any gap in close tolerence bearing, it is to decrease, minimize, or eliminate friction between metal.

If there is any room for oil, there is a gap.  No gap = no room for oil = no lubrication.

[BaMorin]

There will always be a gap, even if it's .00025". As the gap gets smaller, the oil viscosity thins. None of my motors require any lube, including my Hurst, but if the VPI Classis motor requires it, then by all means, it probably should be lubed once a year. Most motors of this size have sealed oil impregnated bearings. If your (other brand) table doesn't mention oiling the motor, you should consult the manufacturer before doing so, as this may be harmful to the motor (gets into the windings, pole pieces and attracts dust which will make the motor slow down).

Wayner

The Hurst motor may not have said anything about lubrication, nor the table manufacturer that used the motor. But they most certainly need lubrication.
M/S started the "craze" on the hurst motor used on AR tables. They went as far as running the motor in a tub housing filled with oil on the first M/S tables of their own design. (hurst 3001 motor that is stock also on the AR THE, ES-1 and ETL-1).  I do the motors a little different than M/S, but they still get lubrication.

[Letitroll98]

If there is any room for oil, there is a gap.  No gap = no room for oil = no lubrication.

Amazing the misinformation given out about the lubrication of turntables.  First of all, these are non critical environments, so almost any petroleum oil of any normal viscosity will work well enough to prevent damage.  The detergents in normal motor oil can theoretically cause damage to some phosphor bronze bearings, to my knowledge these are rare in turntables as the extra cost is unnecessary for the application.  So motor oil off the shelf will work just fine.

That being said, the better lubricant for a normal (non-inverted) ball bearing/thrust plate topped by a shaft in a roll bearing is a thin viscosity (10W SAE) machine oil like the one linked to by PumpkinMan (albeit he was only recommending this for the motor).  The 10W oil will climb the shaft walls much more efficiently than a thicker motor oil.  Remember, you want the oil to lubricate under dynamic conditions, so "thicker oil" "sticking to the shaft" doesn't apply.  Back to the OP, this type of oil is generally recommended for small electric motor shafts as well, so one type of oil works for both applications.  Personally, I add a healthy dose of Moly which leaves a permanent coating on the bearing and shaft surfaces.

As the OP and another poster mentioned, for inverted bearing like the newer VPI products, an oil bath won't work as you can't get enough oil to climb to the ball bearing, so grease is called for, Harry correctly recommends standard lithium grease as the best option.

And to really mess your head, there's some heretical theories that although higher viscosity oils don't lubricate shafts as well as lighter weight oils, they sound better.  I'll leave that to the tweekers to feast on.     

[Ericus Rex]

There is absolutely no misinformation given in my statement.  The laws of physics state that two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time.  Whether your table uses oil or grease there must be a gap between the spindle and bearing for that lubricant to occupy.  A bearing can be made with such tight tolerances that the lubricant is 'squeezed' out of the joint, much like a glue joint can be too tightly clamped which then results in a dry glue joint.  Now, whether this information pertains to the VPI is not my point.  RCAG claimed there should be absolutely no gap in the bearing and that's just plain wrong...unless you want metal on metal contact.

[TheChairGuy]

As the OP and another poster mentioned, for inverted bearing like the newer VPI products, an oil bath won't work as you can't get enough oil to climb to the ball bearing, so grease is called for, Harry correctly recommends standard lithium grease as the best option.

Along these lines, in case questions arise in this topic about relubricating the inverted bearing of the VPI Classic.....I bought a hideously expensive DuPont Teflon Krytox grease ($29.95 per ounce) and there was not one iota of difference heard from standard white lithium.

http://www.amazon.com/DuPont-Krytox-GPL206-High-Performance-Grease/dp/B003VWB1IE

I also bought Lubro-Moly joint grease (less costly than the Krytox at $5.00 and ounce and found no difference here, either)

That inverted bearing is so friction free to begin with that even the best grease does no better than the lowliest.

When it comes time to re-lubricate my VPI Classic motor I'll probably use TUFOIL.  I've used in in my auto's for nearly 20 years now with good results.  Last year, due to the hub-bub over moly on auto sites (and virtues extolled by letitroll98), I bought Lubro-Moly to try in my car. 

It was more costly than the TUFOIL and I didn't see the mileage gains I normally see after using TUFOIL.  So, I'm back to TUFOIL in both my cars and TT motor now 

http://www.amazon.com/Tufoil-Engine-Treatment-8-oz/dp/B000AM8C62

John

[rcag_ils]

If there is any room for oil, there is a gap.  No gap = no room for oil = no lubrication

Wrong again, metal to metal contact can have no gap (theoretically), but needs oil, otherwise the heat will destroy the metal. Lubricant minimize friction of metal to metal contact, and no gap, decrease heat, no gap, makes the metal move, no gap. You rub two pieces of smooth ice cubes together, no gap, and they will move, no gap.

[rcag_ils]

RCAG claimed there should be absolutely no gap in the bearing and that's just plain wrong...unless you want metal on metal contact.

Unfortunately, our tooling machine can not make metal to metal contact with no gap, if it could, there would be no gap, but still need to lubricate.

[Wayner]

Unfortunately, the tolerances of manufacturing at this level, prevents the gaps from being near zero. The metals used are also of different alloys. The shaft unusually being made from stainless steel 300 series and the bearing, well I've seen everything from die-cast aluminum to bronze oil impregnated. The other problem achieving a closer tolerance is expansion and contraction of metals. Different alloys have different rates of expansion/contraction. So, what could be a loose fit today, could be a tight fit tomorrow.

I have used Slick 50 in my Empire and VPI, as well as all AR derivatives without any harmful effects. These oils, like John's Tufoil are synthetic lubes, and the only thing that will happen to them is they will get contaminated with dust and other debris from normal use.

I have the very Hurst motor that BaMorin is talking about, and I have lubed that, however, the original Haydon motor is a motor I would not touch with anything but the finest "sewing machine" type of oil. I just don't know, but I suspect any heavier viscosity will drag the motor down, and perhaps, destroy it.

My stance on the subject is that it depends on the motor, and it depends on the platters' spindle and bearing gap. There is no one right answer. DD tables should maybe be lubed as well.

Wayner

[jtwrace]

If your bearing is a oil lite bronze bearing I highly recommend soaking it in ATF.  The bronze will soak in some ATF and will auto lubricate.

[Wayner]

By chance, I ran into this stuff on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BEST-synthetic-turntable-oil-Technics-PLEASE-READ-/230522930514?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ac3cc552

I am not promoting it, but it caught my eye. BBW.

Wayner

[BaMorin]

If your bearing is a oil lite bronze bearing I highly recommend soaking it in ATF.  The bronze will soak in some ATF and will auto lubricate.

ATF has a higher surface tension than petrolium based oil. That's why it's what I used on top of a dry moly coating on all engines I built. Flows out quicker as well.

[jtwrace]

ATF has a higher surface tension than petrolium based oil. That's why it's what I used on top of a dry moly coating on all engines I built. Flows out quicker as well.

This can easily turn into another thread by itself...I wouldn't be using ATF in a motor.  Sorry.  We build over 600 per year and don't do it that way..

[rcag_ils]

http://cgi.ebay.com/BEST-synthetic-turntable-oil-Technics-PLEASE-READ-/230522930514?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ac3cc552

For almost 10 bucks with shipping, you are paying nothing more than a small bottle and needle applicator for ease of handling. The content inside is unknown, maybe nothing more than Mobil 1 synthetic. The bottle and needle applicator cost about a little over a dollar if you buy them in bulk. The Mobil 1 cost about $8.99 a quart and you can fill many many 1oz bottles with it, he's making pretty good profit. I am thinking about doing that myself, and I probably would charge less.

[BobM]

Damn, this thread is reminding me that I should probably do my annual winter maintenance/cleaning of my bearing. For the record, it's an older VPI MKIII platter and bearing and I use Mobil 1.

[Ericus Rex]

Wrong again, metal to metal contact can have no gap (theoretically), but needs oil, otherwise the heat will destroy the metal. Lubricant minimize friction of metal to metal contact, and no gap, decrease heat, no gap, makes the metal move, no gap. You rub two pieces of smooth ice cubes together, no gap, and they will move, no gap.

Oil must be present between two pieces (I.E. in a small space between parts = "gap") in order to work.  Otherwise, there is no lubrication between parts and you have metal-on-metal contact.  You're lacking a basic understanding of lubrication.  I recommend you do some research in the field.  Let's not get any more off topic and waste the other ACer's time by going back and forth on this.  Start with Google.  My apologies to the OP.

[rcag_ils]

Oil must be present between two pieces (I.E. in a small space between parts = "gap") in order to work.  Otherwise, there is no lubrication between parts and you have metal-on-metal contact.  You're lacking a basic understanding of lubrication.  I recommend you do some research in the field.  Let's not get any more off topic and waste the other ACer's time by going back and forth on this.  Start with Google.  My apologies to the OP.

Hey Einstein, if the gap is so small that it's in the molecular level, it's considered no gap. Oil molecule, when smaller than the metal molecules can get between the metal molecules when there's no gap.

[TheChairGuy]

tut-tut...let's not let this escalate in insulting phrasing folks, purdy please 

John / Facilitator