Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2

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Æ

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #80 on: 11 Dec 2011, 01:28 am »
Four years ago I heard Peter Qvortrop's best Audio Note speakers, a pair of $150,000 8" two way bookshelf speakers driven by a pair of $130,000 low power amplifiers, at the VTV consumer audio trade show in Piscataway NJ and I was completely underwhelmed.  Interesting that in the review Dudley said he got deeper better bass out of the Sophia3 than out of the Audo Note speakers. But then what do you want for a mere $150,000, perfection?

I know what you mean about being "underwhelmed." But you'd certainly hope, that a two way loudspeaker like the AudioNote would sound better than the BOSE.

Soundminded

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #81 on: 11 Dec 2011, 01:48 am »
I know what you mean about being "underwhelmed." But you'd certainly hope, that a two way loudspeaker like the AudioNote would sound better than the BOSE.

I've re-engineered my original Bose 901s. They are now a two way bi-amplified speaker using 4 equalizers. I'll put them up against Peter Qvortrup's best effort. Not particularly efficient power wise but who cares. Where's the virtue in being able to be powered by pee-wee amplifiers in an era when several hundred watts only costs several hundred dollars? Dollar wise they are far more efficient. They cost only about one three hundredth of what his does.

Quiet Earth

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #82 on: 11 Dec 2011, 01:57 am »
I'm sure he would love to hear them. Seriously. So would I.

macrojack

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #83 on: 11 Dec 2011, 02:10 am »
Ultimately our listening experience is personal and subjective. That means essentially that it is only an opinion and, as such, carries no weight whatsoever. It can, however, derive credibility from the corroboration of others. So consensus is sought. Validation is prized and fads ensue. So called expert reviewers are granted immense power due to their endowed status and conferred expertise. They often are responsible for making or breaking a product and, too often, they confer dynasty upon favored brands.

The experience, however, is yours - it's personal. You get to decide whether or not you like your sound. You can make it easy on yourself by hearing a glass half full or you can condemn yourself to a lifelong quest to fill your half empty sound to the satisfaction you see advertised.
The whole matter is in your head. What tweak could be easier and less expensive than simply changing how you see things?

Harry Pearson engendered this disease by creating and perpetuating the myth of The Absolute Sound. I'm offering the cure. Help yourself.

Soundminded

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #84 on: 11 Dec 2011, 02:22 am »
I'm sure he would love to hear them. Seriously. So would I.

The purpose of that sound system is to reproduce the tone of acoustic musical instruments as they would be heard if they were in that room. It will of course play any type of recordeing but it works best for recordings of soloists and small groups.

All comparisons are based on memory of what real instruments sound like. I'm forturnte to have live references I can listen to any time I want to. For example about 8 or 9 string players will be at my house tomorrow to "rehearse" various string quartet music.

Like all of my systems they are based on my own mathematical models and engineered to the spot in the room they are installed in and then re-adjusted to compensate for differences from one recording to another. They don't sound like anyone else's sound system (over 95% of the high frequencies are propagated indirectly by an array of 6 tweeters per channel.) In my experience they will perform the function I've intended them for better on more recordings than other systems I've head including those I own myself.

Soundminded

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #85 on: 11 Dec 2011, 02:30 am »
Ultimately our listening experience is personal and subjective. That means essentially that it is only an opinion and, as such, carries no weight whatsoever. It can, however, derive credibility from the corroboration of others. So consensus is sought. Validation is prized and fads ensue. So called expert reviewers are granted immense power due to their endowed status and conferred expertise. They often are responsible for making or breaking a product and, too often, they confer dynasty upon favored brands.

The experience, however, is yours - it's personal. You get to decide whether or not you like your sound. You can make it easy on yourself by hearing a glass half full or you can condemn yourself to a lifelong quest to fill your half empty sound to the satisfaction you see advertised.
The whole matter is in your head. What tweak could be easier and less expensive than simply changing how you see things?

Harry Pearson engendered this disease by creating and perpetuating the myth of The Absolute Sound. I'm offering the cure. Help yourself.

You can deny reality, accept it and live with it, or go about changing it yourself. I'm an engineer. My job in life is to analyze problems and solve them. It is far more interesting and satisfying to understand sound and hearing and then design or redesign systems and equipment to make it perform the way I want it to than to run around with whatever money I can scrape up to by someone else's ideas I probably won't be satisfied with very long.  People do this time after time after time in seeming futility. I have no plans to change or replace my design. I enjoy it because it does exactly what I want it to. If it didn't I'd go back to working at it until it did.

HiFiSoundGuy

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #86 on: 11 Dec 2011, 02:58 am »
I've always wondered how a $30,000 speaker can be placed beside a $30,000 car and called a good value. The complexity, materials, engineering, tolerances, durability, etc., etc., etc...... in the car are orders of magnitude greater than what is required by, and provided in, the speaker.

Personally, I think the ultra high end audio products are a shameless fraud perpetuated on a witless hobbyist elite. If you go far enough into the land of diminishing returns, you come up empty.

Maybe manufacturers have found that the paucity of new customers can be overcome by scoring deeper on the few willing remnants of their past customer base.

  I AGREE, the diminishing returns kick in very quickly !!   8)

HiFiSoundGuy

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #87 on: 11 Dec 2011, 03:03 am »
Interesting.

The first time I heard a pair of Audio Note speakers I was also "underwhelmed". But after returning to the store many more times just to hang out with the guys (and not to analyze speakers or spend any more money  :nono:), I realized that I was having a hard time getting up to leave. The record kept ending and I kept getting up to put another one on. "Hey, I'm only an hour late, I can stay a little bit longer." During this time in my life I was also aware that my tastes were changing and I was comfortable letting go of what I had embraced before. Not that any of this matters to anyone, but I didn't really care who made the speaker that I was enjoying, or why it worked the way it did. Ok,Ok,,, I cared who made it and I was curious to figure out why it worked, but I didn't really care in the academic sense since it made me feel so happy when I was listening to it. What is the true value of something that makes your life so much nicer? Do you skip out on a good thing just because it doesn't fit into the neat little box that defines your audiophile life? Do you know what I mean?

If you do know what I mean then I don't see the point in getting all uptight over what something costs, how or where it is made, and what it is made out of. And why would you trash someone for buying it because they can, or because they actually like it? Does that make your own system sound any better?

Hope to hear those 901s again someday HiFiSoundGuy. Glad you are enjoying yours.  8)

  I'm really enjoying these Tweaked-out 901's a lot more now ! When you find the G-SPOT !

Æ

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #88 on: 11 Dec 2011, 04:15 am »
I've re-engineered my original Bose 901s. They are now a two way bi-amplified speaker using 4 equalizers. I'll put them up against Peter Qvortrup's best effort. Not particularly efficient power wise but who cares. Where's the virtue in being able to be powered by pee-wee amplifiers in an era when several hundred watts only costs several hundred dollars? Dollar wise they are far more efficient. They cost only about one three hundredth of what his does.

Believe you me, you could do way better than Peter if you had a $150K budget to work with.
« Last Edit: 11 Dec 2011, 07:12 am by Æ »

Pez

Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #89 on: 11 Dec 2011, 04:52 am »
Agreed, if audionote speakers are your competition.... I won't finish that sentence.

Chromisdesigns

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #90 on: 11 Dec 2011, 05:56 am »
I've re-engineered my original Bose 901s. They are now a two way bi-amplified speaker using 4 equalizers. I'll put them up against Peter Qvortrup's best effort. Not particularly efficient power wise but who cares. Where's the virtue in being able to be powered by pee-wee amplifiers in an era when several hundred watts only costs several hundred dollars? Dollar wise they are far more efficient. They cost only about one three hundredth of what his does.

How do you get 4 equalizers in the setup?  Are you dual-mono all the way from the source?

tarquineous

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #91 on: 11 Dec 2011, 06:29 am »
Jeff,

Just to keep it real....

If the Sophia is $15k retail then they are buying it 40-50 points off probably.  Lets just say that they are $8k to the dealer.  The cost of the actual speaker is probably in the $2500 range.  Of course, throw in the overhead and it adds up very quickly. 

I will add that I've listened to many Wilson systems and have NEVER been impressed.  I always walk away extremely confused as to why people think they sound great.  I went to a demo where the sysstem was nearly $500k and setup by Wilson and went home and hugged my system.

I've had a similar impression with Wilson speakers over the last 12 years. They are made very good. Always priced double of what I would pay for them (if I really liked them). But what I have always noticed is the bass range does not have the character of the upper ranges. I just heard this again at the Newport Audio show in Los Angeles (June 2011).

Aside from this, comparing Bose 901s to Wilsons or similar speakers is a little foolish. They each present a sound that many people will like. And if you're into modifying, the Bose 901s, and the active equalizer, will probably respond very well to mods.

There are accessories such as the Smith cell, by Nuforce, Bybee filters, Synergistic Speaker Cells, and MIT products, that would be fun to experiment with on the 901s.

Class D amp folks should have a blast!

Æ

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #92 on: 11 Dec 2011, 07:25 am »
There are accessories such as the Smith cell, by Nuforce, Bybee filters, Synergistic Speaker Cells, and MIT products, that would be fun to experiment with on the 901s.


BwaaaHaaaHaaaHaa. Oh man, cut it out, I can't take it anymore. My ribs are hurting :lol:

TONEPUB

Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #93 on: 11 Dec 2011, 07:53 am »
Jeff,

Just to keep it real....

If the Sophia is $15k retail then they are buying it 40-50 points off probably.  Lets just say that they are $8k to the dealer.  The cost of the actual speaker is probably in the $2500 range.  Of course, throw in the overhead and it adds up very quickly. 

I will add that I've listened to many Wilson systems and have NEVER been impressed.  I always walk away extremely confused as to why people think they sound great.  I went to a demo where the sysstem was nearly $500k and setup by Wilson and went home and hugged my system.

Not saying I'm in love with the Wilson sound myself, but FWIW, the two best sounding Wilson systems I have ever heard have been the X-2's in Dave Wilson's house and the X-2's that one of my staff members owns.  More often than not, especially at shows, I've heard their speakers sound way too bright and way too forward (and demoed way too loud).

But again, having been to the factory and watching their product designed, tested and assembled, they aren't making junk, they aren't cutting corners and they don't make a product that you can build in your garage.  The Wilson factory is full of state of the art machinery, and a highly skilled workforce that takes painstaking care in what they build.  That's either worth something to you or it isn't.  I've heard so many DIY speakers over the years that if I had $10 for every one that sounded great, I'd have an empty wallet.  Sorry, I've yet to hear a great pair of garage built speakers.  (though I'm really anxious to hear some of Wardswebs' creations..)

We could easily compare this to the world of expensive cars.  Is a 250,000 dollar Ferrari F430 9 times better than a Subaru WRX?  Probably not, especially if you ask the guy driving the Subaru, who will never be able to afford the 430 - it behooves him to say that the less expensive thing that he can afford is just as good.  If you're someone that drives cars for a living (like a race car driver, a wealthy enthusiast or an automotive journalist) you know that the Ferrari is a better car that offers more performance, is much more beautiful to look at and succeeds on so many more levels. 

Again, is it 9 times better?  Who knows?  But it costs what it costs and you can either afford one or you can't.  You either appreciate it for what it is, or it doesn't matter to you.  It's really ok either way.

And that's kind of how the top gear in high end audio is.  Some of it is amazing, some of it is snake oil.  But it costs what it costs because it's made in small numbers.  Just like any other luxury item.  And that's really what the stuff at the top is.

What I don't understand is why so many people make such a big deal out of this.  If you don't want an expensive stereo system, don't buy one.  There's a ton of great gear that won't break the bank.  And the mfrs that are producing the expensive faire are doing so because there is a market for it.  It's just like getting crabby about 300 thousand dollar cars or 50 thousand dollar watches.  The people that can afford this stuff aren't sweating the mortgage, so their priorities are way different than mine.

I'll never have a 330 thousand dollar Aston Martin DBS, but that doesn't make it any less cool because I can't have one.  No matter how many performance parts I hang on a Subaru WRX, it will never come close.  And after spending four days with one, if I won the lottery, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.


srb

Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #94 on: 11 Dec 2011, 09:14 am »
For some reason bashing Wilson has become almost as fashionable for audiophiles to do as bashing Bose.  The less time spent actually listening to a Wilson, the greater the bashing it seems.
 
While I haven't seen Wilson cabinet building in person, I have followed it in print.  Although it's not quite the level of handwork and assembly of an Aston Martin, it is far from a slapped together MDF box.  The same people who have a problem with its pricing often have no problem with thousand dollar cables, and I know what goes into those.
 
When I posted that I preferred the less expensive EPI 201s to the 1974 Bose 901s, that was a careful evaluation over several hours and was obviously a personal preference.  On the other hand, I have spent numerous traveling hours with a number of pairs of noise cancelling headphones (including Sennheisers), and the Bose headphones were more enjoyable to me for noisy airline travel than the others.
 
Steve

Soundminded

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #95 on: 11 Dec 2011, 01:13 pm »
But again, having been to the factory and watching their product designed, tested and assembled, they aren't making junk, they aren't cutting corners and they don't make a product that you can build in your garage. 

A gold plated chariot pulled by a team of a thousand horses can easily be beaten in a race by a Volkswagen Beetle. The Chariot's flaw, it cannot go any faster than the fastest horse or in fact faster than the slowest. You can perfect a failed idea, an inherently limited paradigm to whatever extreme you like but that won't make it any better than the limit of the paradigm. The paradigm of the direct firing loudspeaker has inherent limits because it ignores the critical way real musical instruments propagate sound and cannot produce sound fields comparable to what those instruments produce. The defect is substantial and easily audible. A further defect of the audiophile concept is that there in no way without further equalization to get a sound recording/reproducing chain to have an overall flat response due to differences in program material. Having only the playback system flat isn't good enough, it must be flat back to the microphones.

The inherent flaw in original Bose 901 is that its FR isn't even remotely close to flat ever. It can't reproduce the top octave of sound at all and its lower bass, upper bass and lower midrange are not close to flat compared to its midrange.

High fidelity sound is not about woofers, tweeters, tubes, transistors, phonograph records, cds, it's about sound fields. Until those are studied and understood to a far greater degree than at present, sound system designers including speaker designers are shooting in the dark and miss every time.

Soundminded

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #96 on: 11 Dec 2011, 01:25 pm »
How do you get 4 equalizers in the setup?  Are you dual-mono all the way from the source?

One equalizer gets the Bose 901 into the ballpark as best as it can, that's the one supplied by Bose. A second removes the peak in the upper bass/lower midrange and boosts its low bass flattening its response. A third tweaks the tweeter array independently which is the most proactical way for this particular system. A fourth adjusts the input signal to compensate for different recordings. The array is designed with the room's acoustics in mind, the FR and loudness of the indirect array compensating for what will be absorbed/reflected by the walls so that the resulting reflections will be flat. The overall result is excellent imaging, great clarity and accuracy without any shrillness, a stable stereo image, no sweet spot, very deep bass (exceeded only by my AR9s)) and a far better performer than one would expect from Bose 901. I could theoretically build a better speaker/sound system for the purpose I indicated but not for anything like the cost of this one and not without far greater complexity. I don't know in practical terms how much better it would be either. As I said I'm very pleased with the results I've gotten and feel no need to make any further changes.

The system is designed to conform to a still proprietary mathematical model that explains sound fields in a novel way. It also shows the defect in other designs. For example AR9 cannot be made to perform as well (except in the deep bass) due to inherent limitations in its basic concept. It would have to be completely resdesigned from the ground up.

macrojack

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #97 on: 11 Dec 2011, 02:06 pm »
Soundminded - You wouldn't need all those EQs if you had just removed your grills. I read somewhere that that's the ultimate tweak.

Soundminded

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Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #98 on: 11 Dec 2011, 02:39 pm »
Believe you me, you could do way better than Peter if you had a $150K budget to work with.

I don't need $150,000. I see the success of my designs as the triumph of brains over money.

OzarkTom

Re: Tweaked out Bose 901 series 6 mk 2
« Reply #99 on: 11 Dec 2011, 04:03 pm »
Soundminded - You wouldn't need all those EQs if you had just removed your grills. I read somewhere that that's the ultimate tweak.

I started experimenting with that grill tweak 35 years ago when I was a dealer. I tried it on all the brands I sold back then. And yes, that improved every speaker I ever tried, simply amazing!

If anyone here finds a speaker that sounds worse with the grills off, please let me know.