Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?

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SoCalWJS

Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« on: 11 Jan 2018, 05:18 pm »
I was reading through this thread on AC and ran into some stuff I hadn't heard of or considered before.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154260.0

Some of the statements:

Bypass capacitors throw off the timing between the drivers. When I removed them from my Cronus Magnum amp, my speakers gained a great deal of coherency, i.e., the treble info no longer arrived before the mid-range music. (My speakers are time-aligned, phase coherent models).

I would never use them, but rather seek to increase the quality of the main cap.


and

 Smaller value caps are faster in output than larger value ones and therefore their information reaches the speaker drivers sooner than that of the larger value capacitors. They may indeed perhaps extend the frequency response of the unit they're used in (or just add "air") but at the cost of smearing the timing. People are more or less sensitive to timing issues so, as usual, it becomes a personal preference.




Curious as to whether anybody has installed bypass caps, then removed them later and been happy with the difference?

Danny Richie

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Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #1 on: 11 Jan 2018, 05:38 pm »
What they says is true, however.....

Yes the difference in discharge rates can be a problem especially when using two values to make another. For instance using a 5uF and a 15uF to make a 20uF value. This does cause a smearing effect.

And I can use my Clio measuring system to see the phase shift that occurs from the dissimilar values.

However, using a by-pass cap of a .1uF or smaller puts the phase shift at or above 20kHz. So hearing the phase shift is next to impossible.

And there are clear audible improvements that can be had from properly by-passing. 

corndog71

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Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #2 on: 11 Jan 2018, 05:51 pm »
My experiments with bypass caps in tube preamp / amp circuits do what you describe.  I don't receommend them in that application.

In speaker crossovers they can improve perceived detail and help balance the sound of the primary caps.

SoCalWJS

Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #3 on: 11 Jan 2018, 08:03 pm »
What they says is true, however.....

Yes the difference in discharge rates can be a problem especially when using two values to make another. For instance using a 5uF and a 15uF to make a 20uF value. This does cause a smearing effect.

And I can use my Clio measuring system to see the phase shift that occurs from the dissimilar values.

However, using a by-pass cap of a .1uF or smaller puts the phase shift at or above 20kHz. So hearing the phase shift is next to impossible.

And there are clear audible improvements that can be had from properly by-passing.
Thanks for the response Danny. Still trying to work up the courage to remove my crossovers from my LS6's to ship them to you for a once over. It shouldn't be that tough, but not quite sure how much working space there is (extra wire). Maybe I'll give that a look over this afternoon.

(Currently listening to Super V's exclusively and the LS6's are in a spot where I have decent access to them. Wrapping and shipping should be straight forward I would think)

SoCalWJS

Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jan 2018, 09:57 pm »
Looks like my ancient soldering iron isn't getting hot enough. A trip to HD may be in order. Don't want to spend much money. How much do I need for simple stuff like this?

I see a 25 watt and a 40 watt pencil style on their website. Do I need more? Do I need variable?

gregfisk

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Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #5 on: 11 Jan 2018, 10:01 pm »
Looks like my ancient soldering iron isn't getting hot enough. A trip to HD may be in order. Don't want to spend much money. How much do I need for simple stuff like this?

I see a 25 watt and a 40 watt pencil style on their website. Do I need more? Do I need variable?

If you don't mind waiting a few days Parts Express has some small stations that are cheap and work very well. I think I got mine on sale for about $15.00 to $20.00.

gab

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Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #6 on: 11 Jan 2018, 10:16 pm »
What they says is true, however.....

Yes the difference in discharge rates can be a problem especially when using two values to make another. For instance using a 5uF and a 15uF to make a 20uF value. This does cause a smearing effect.

 

Danny - what about the Mundorf Supremes? They use 2 identical values in series to achieve a value 1/2 of the two capacitors: "The special design of our capacitor foil
makes it possible to fi t together two capacitor windings, wound in opposite directions, in such a way that the inductivity of the individual winding is increased! Both
windings are connected in series, which therefore means that for the manufacture of a 1μF MCap® SUPREME, two conventional models windings of 2 μF each would be
required - in total, therefore, 4 μF of material would need to be processed."


http://www.mundorf.com/english%201.1/kondensatoren.htm

So parallel is a no-no and series is OK?

gab

Danny Richie

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Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #7 on: 11 Jan 2018, 10:29 pm »
I've tried various Mundorf caps in different applications. They make nice caps. But I wasn't impressed enough with any of them to use them in any applications that I have.

And there is nothing wrong with paralleling two caps to make a larger value. Two 10's can be used to make a 20 for instance. But a 5 and a 15 would cause an issue.

Using two caps in series to make a smaller value though? I think I'd rather use a single smaller value.

gab

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Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #8 on: 11 Jan 2018, 10:44 pm »
I've tried various Mundorf caps in different applications. They make nice caps. But I wasn't impressed enough with any of them to use them in any applications that I have.

And there is nothing wrong with paralleling two caps to make a larger value. Two 10's can be used to make a 20 for instance. But a 5 and a 15 would cause an issue.

Using two caps in series to make a smaller value though? I think I'd rather use a single smaller value.

Ah okay. So using the same capacitosr in parallel to achieve bigger values (your example above - ie. four 10s to make 40) doesn't create the smearing issue compared to different individual caps values to achieve the same. Good to know! Thanks Danny

gab

SoCalWJS

Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #9 on: 11 Jan 2018, 11:30 pm »
If you don't mind waiting a few days Parts Express has some small stations that are cheap and work very well. I think I got mine on sale for about $15.00 to $20.00.
It turns out I can wait. I left the thing plugged in for about a half hour before I tried again. Slowly.... but surely..... I got the connectors loose. I will definitely be ordering a new one, but no hurry now.  :thumb:

SoCalWJS

Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #10 on: 11 Jan 2018, 11:31 pm »
Danny. PM coming.

Captainhemo

Re: Other viewpoint(s) on Bypass Caps?
« Reply #11 on: 11 Jan 2018, 11:35 pm »
Ah okay. So using the same capacitosr in parallel to achieve bigger values (your example above - ie. four 10s to make 40) doesn't create the smearing issue compared to different individual caps values to achieve the same. Good to know! Thanks Danny

gab

 and with the above  eg, 4 x 10 uF  is likely  going to provide a cleaner signal compared to a single  40uF due to the quicker  charge/discharge rate of the 10 vs  40 uf  cap  (I'd think 4 x 10 will charge/discharge at the rate of a single 10)  ?

jay