AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: WillyP on 20 Feb 2018, 06:29 pm
-
Hi all,
At the beginning of each Blu-ray disc, I can hear crackling noises from my SP3 through my centre speaker, strangely enough also when the power amplifier is in standby modus. I don’t hear them from my other speakers. Not very loud, but it is a bit discomforting. It happens every time after my SP3 (with HDMI 2.0a board) has locked. Any idea what causes these noises and how I can get rid of them?
Kind regards,
Willy
-
That sounds like what my SP-3 without the HDMI board upgrade has always done (though my amps are always on, and I don't know from which front speaker/speakers it's coming).
Best I can figure, it happens when the SP-3 switches from dolby digital (or maybe dolby prologic) to DTS-MA. It may also be when going from Dolby digital to Dolby True HD. Essentially, when I put a Bluray in (Oppo 103) and the SP3 switches from whatever the menu audio format (dolby prologic for example) is to the actual movie format (DTS MA), I get a one second or less digital screeching sound. Happens nearly every time.
I believe there are settings on the SP-3 that have to do with HDMI handshaking that might address the issue, but I've never taken the time to try and work it out.
-
Hello Garrett,
Thanks for your reply. Your remarks about the relation between the noises and changes in the Dolby signal made me think. What will happen if I change the output signal of my Blu-ray player from Bitstream to LPCM? My Blu-ray player uses relays to mute the outcoming signals when the format changes to prevent disturbing noises. And guess what: no more cracks from the SP3! Until now, that is, so knock on wood.
In theory, an LPCM signal could be more prone to jitter than a Bitstream signal when the HDMI connection is used. I have only watched a few short movies after I changed the output signal so it is too early to tell, but I will possibly find out in the next few weeks if this is true. When there isn't much difference in sound quality I will continue to use the LPCM output of my Blu-ray player. From time to time, the crackling noises from the SP3 are quite loud and these are getting on my nerves a little bit.
Thanks again for your help.
Willy
-
In theory, an LPCM signal could be more prone to jitter than a Bitstream signal when the HDMI connection is used.
That's interesting. A while ago I had changed all the sources to use PCM on the theory that noise generated by decoding in my processor might be having an effect. I never bothered to A/B or anything just overthinking it. I had done something similar with my music library and really preferred the sound that way.
I wonder which theoretical effect dominates.
-
According to the manual (page 29 and 30), it is recommended to send the audio signal to the SP3 in Bitstream format when HDMI is used. I have read on many occasions that it does not make any difference where the audio signal is decoded, in the player or in the processor, but in theory, the Bitstream signal is unaffected by jitter when transported via HDMI while the LPCM signal is not.
I have seen some more movies in the meantime and, until now I haven't heard one single crack. For me, this is more important than a slight loss in audio quality, so I will keep using the LPCM mode as output from my Blu-ray player.
Willy
-
I got ploppings when playing via HDMI.
This is what Stan advised:
'I asked about trying CBL/SAT input because there is a special handling of the HDMI implemented on this particular input, dealing with some TV cable boxes. The special feature involves recovery after sudden switching between adertisements interruptions (typically PCM 2ch or old Dolby 2 channel format), and high resolution audio play (Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio).
CBL/SAT input treats every PCM multichannel at 192k samples/s as a case of mis-detection of one of the high resolution streams (Dolby THD or DTSHDMA) and forces the system to reset detection which prevents loss-of sync noise. Other inputs like DVD, DVR etc do not do that and allow PCM multichannel at 192k as is. Until now, this problem was reported only with some cable TV decoder boxes, but it is possible that the same on the fly stream changes are now encoded in the newer blue ray disks. We have to keep an eye on it. For the time being if you find that CBL/SAT fixes this issue, please let us know so that we will implement a parameter allowing this to be enable for other inputs. Note that the side effect is that (in 2015.04b) it will not allow you to play multichannel PCM 7.1 sources at 192k from CBL/SAT.'
Since then I use for HDMI the CBL/SAT input.
-
I've had this problem with my Oppo BDP-103D and with my Oppo BDP-83 for ever. It's always when watching bluray discs. They start with menus and ads and previews at the beginning. When the actual movie starts, there's always a brief, high-pitched digital static/screech sound. Once the SP3 locks into DTS MA (or Dolby True HD), the problem goes away.
Occasionally, if I skip back and start playing again, it will do the same thing.
I would LOVE that option on a per-input basis. I emailed Stan and James about it in the past and was never able to resolve it (though I never had the time to dedicate several days in a row of trouble shooting).
Please please please! It's one of the only frustrations I have with the SP3, and if Bryston can fix it in a firmware upgrade, that'd be AMAZING!
-
@Buseto,
That is an interesting option. Unfortunately, not easy to realise now for me, because all my electronic gear is placed within a lowboard and to change the input I have to dismantle everything. If Stan could fix it via a firmware update, that would be wonderful. Does the fix work for LPCM signals only or also for Bitstream signals?
@Garrett,
My Primare Blu-ray player is built on an Oppo transport mechanism and when I change Bitstream to LPCM in the Audio Format Setup of the Setup Menu the pops and crackles are gone.
Only thing is, theoretically there could be a difference in sound quality between the Bitstream and LPCM options but I have not had the time to check this out.
HTH
Willy
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176600)
-
@
Does the fix work for LPCM signals only or also for Bitstream signals?
I don't know. As the distortion could be so hard I was afraid for my speakers and wan't experiment here.
-
It's an incredibly unpleasant sound. I literally apologize to my family every time we watch a bluray. But I don't usually have the volume up too high, so while very unpleasant to hear, it probably isn't in danger of damaging the speakers. At higher volumes, perhaps?
-
I've had this problem with my Oppo BDP-103D and with my Oppo BDP-83 for ever. It's always when watching bluray discs. They start with menus and ads and previews at the beginning. When the actual movie starts, there's always a brief, high-pitched digital static/screech sound. Once the SP3 locks into DTS MA (or Dolby True HD), the problem goes away.
Occasionally, if I skip back and start playing again, it will do the same thing.
I would LOVE that option on a per-input basis. I emailed Stan and James about it in the past and was never able to resolve it (though I never had the time to dedicate several days in a row of trouble shooting).
Please please please! It's one of the only frustrations I have with the SP3, and if Bryston can fix it in a firmware upgrade, that'd be AMAZING!
Ditto with my Oppo 203. Nearly every Blu-ray disc has the screech through my SP3 (DVD input).
-
Ditto with my Oppo 203. Nearly every Blu-ray disc has the screech through my SP3 (DVD input).
Do you have the upgraded HDMI (4k) board?
-
Here's hoping that James, Mike or Stan has some recommendations for us to get rid of the annoying noise that is coming from the SP3 at the beginning of each Blu-ray.
Willy
-
Here's hoping that James, Mike or Stan has some recommendations for us to get rid of the annoying noise that is coming from the SP3 at the beginning of each Blu-ray.
Willy
Hi Willy
Please email Stan - I do not have the issue with my BluRays at home or at the factory - so not sure what is happening in your setup.
james
-
Hi Willy
Please email Stan - I do not have the issue with my BluRays at home or at the factory - so not sure what is happening in your setup.
james
I have the same issue, but it is not every time. My theory is that it is caused when the BR disk switches codecs. For example, if the previews are in Dolby Digital, but the main movie is in DTS Master HD, the SP3 needs to relock. When that happens, the pop or screeching sound is produced.
The problem is better now than it used to be in earlier versions of the firmware. However, it still happens frequently enough to be worrisome that it will damage a driver on my speakers. Think what improved it a few versions ago is that a short mute was introduced in the firmware, when the codec changes. However, I think the mute only happens when there is a gap between the two codecs. Where I notice the issue the most is with my HTPC. If I am watching streaming video with Dolby Digital then switch straight to Dolby Digital+, I get the screech. On the other hand, if I switch from the HTCP to a DVR, there is a break in the sent codec, so no screech.
Hope this additional info from a different owner helps.
-
Yeah, that's exactly what I have. I hope they introduce some kinda firmware fix.
-
Yeah, that's exactly what I have. I hope they introduce some kinda firmware fix.
In my experience, James, Stan, and the entire Bryston team are highly focused on customer service and very responsive.
Have you reached out to Stan to describe the issue, so he can see if there is a viable fix via a firmware update?
-
With my Blu-ray player, the noises disappear if I change the output format for the HDMI port from Bitstream to LPCM.
Stan has given me a possible solution for the problem but I have not had the time to try it out. I don't think Stan will mind if I share his suggestion with you.
<< One of the decoding options that affect the locking to the digital stream is:
SOURCE SETUP-->OTHER-->HDMI PCM 192 ENABLE/DISABLE
Enable is the default, disabling it will prevent playing multichannel LPCM at 192k rate on that source but it will make locking into high resolution Dolby and DTS formats much faster because 192k LPCM and high resolution Dolby and DTS use the same clocks and could be mixed up.
Even with “disable” it will still play 2 ch 192k PCM and it will not affect 176k and lower sample rates. >>
Hope this helps.
Willy
-
With my Blu-ray player, the noises disappear if I change the output format for the HDMI port from Bitstream to LPCM.
I think the reason the noise stops when you switch from bitstream to LPCM is because the SP3 is not relocking different codecs. The BR player is always sending a LPCM signal.
Preferably, the lock/noise issue will have a solution when in bitstream.
-
That looks like a reasonable explanation.
Probably it is still too early to draw conclusions but I have played two Blu-rays now with the setting that was recommended by Stan and I haven't heard the dreaded cracks. Of course, I have changed LPCM back to Bitstream for the HDMI output port of the Blu-ray player, before these short tests.
The coming week I will play all my Blu-rays with this setting and I will post the results here.
Willy
-
In my experience, James, Stan, and the entire Bryston team are highly focused on customer service and very responsive.
Have you reached out to Stan to describe the issue, so he can see if there is a viable fix via a firmware update?
Yes, a few years ago. No firmware upgrade. Stan DID send me a few things to try. I confess that I lost/misplaced his recommendations before I had the time to try them.
-
I don't think it's an individual problem. It seems to happen with more users.
I have cited in this thread the reaction Stan gave. But I didn't describe well what the reason was for the reaction Stan gave.
I quote from my mail to Stan: 'When I tried to play a Blu Ray (more exactly when the Blu ray is trying to switch tot the HiRes file (or probably better: when passing the drm) a strange hard distorting noise came from the speakers, so disturbing that I feared about them. So I hastily turned down the volume, pressed the stop, …
My idea was: it’s a faulty Blu Ray.
But alas, it happened more often, though not with all Blu Rays. (And never with dvd’s.)'
-
In my case, it happens when going from previews or the menu to the main movie (so definitely a switch in audio formats). It also can happen when I pause the movie for several minutes and then start it again. I do NOT experience this when I use headphones (and thus the 2-ch analog output from the SP-3 into my BHA-1).
It does seem like the SP3 is trying to lock (back) on to the lossless audio formats.
-
Did you try Stan's advice? (from my earlier mail):
This is what Stan advised:
'I asked about trying CBL/SAT input because there is a special handling of the HDMI implemented on this particular input, dealing with some TV cable boxes. The special feature involves recovery after sudden switching between adertisements interruptions (typically PCM 2ch or old Dolby 2 channel format), and high resolution audio play (Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio).
CBL/SAT input treats every PCM multichannel at 192k samples/s as a case of mis-detection of one of the high resolution streams (Dolby THD or DTSHDMA) and forces the system to reset detection which prevents loss-of sync noise. Other inputs like DVD, DVR etc do not do that and allow PCM multichannel at 192k as is. Until now, this problem was reported only with some cable TV decoder boxes, but it is possible that the same on the fly stream changes are now encoded in the newer blue ray disks. We have to keep an eye on it. For the time being if you find that CBL/SAT fixes this issue, please let us know so that we will implement a parameter allowing this to be enable for other inputs. Note that the side effect is that (in 2015.04b) it will not allow you to play multichannel PCM 7.1 sources at 192k from CBL/SAT.'
-
Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that in the newer firmware this parameter is available for all HDMI ports. I have disabled the 192k option for HDMI input 1 (DVD) and until now I have not heard any disturbing noise. I have only tried a few Blu-rays, though.
I do not have any idea if there are many multichannel PCM 7.1 sources at 192k. On the display of the SP3, I have never seen higher numbers than 48 (for movies) or 88.2 (for SACDs). Who can tell me more about this?
There may be a side effect. I noticed once that switching to another input confused the SP3 and there was no sound, but of course, this could be a coincidence.
I will play some more Blu-rays and I will let you know if the noises are definitely gone now. I hope so!
Willy
-
@WillyP
In the notes for Fw 2016.04b [most recent is: 2016.08b] I found the following passage:
"Added OTHER parameter HDMI-PCM-192k
disable/enable to improve detection of Dolby THD and DTS HDMA lossless high resolution formats
("disable" prevents mis-detection during THD and HDMA formats switching but disable 192k PCM,
"enable" allows PCM 192k but may occasionally may cause loss of synch when THD or HDMA formats switch tracks on some blue ray players).
Default is "enable".
Does not affect 176.4k or lower rates PCM."
So it seems that you are right. Thanks!!
I hadn't (knowingly) seen this passage before.
By the way, I'm still interested in your findings.
-
I have tried a few Blu-ray discs now with the suggested setting by Stan, but I can't say that the cracks are completely gone, unfortunately. It is better than it used to be but not good enough for me.
So I have decided to go back to my first settings, with the output from the HDMI port of my Blu-ray player configured as LPCM.
Willy
-
That's a pity.
Thanks for sharing.
-
Bumping an ancient thread. I've been living with this exact situation and it's so tiring. I found this thread via a search but unfortunately changing the HDMI-192K parameter setting did nothing. I still get a terrible snap when starting a movie from my HTPC, usually when the codec is changing from a Dolby variant to DTS.
Stan, if you're out there - is there anything we can do? The sound is brutal and i'm tired of apologizing to my guests AND my speakers.
-
I will forward this to Stan for you.
james
-
Bumping an ancient thread. I've been living with this exact situation and it's so tiring. I found this thread via a search but unfortunately changing the HDMI-192K parameter setting did nothing. I still get a terrible snap when starting a movie from my HTPC, usually when the codec is changing from a Dolby variant to DTS.
Stan, if you're out there - is there anything we can do? The sound is brutal and i'm tired of apologizing to my guests AND my speakers.
I would think a small amount of chirp is normal before a DTS decoder detects the bitstream, but in your case it seems more than a chirp.
I think in general every manufacturer handles the problem of switching between bitstreams somewhat differently. My understanding is that in digital, the incoming bitstream is constantly monitored so the decoders will know whether the appropriate decoding is PCM, AC-3 (2.0, 5.1 etc) or DTS of various flavors.
When the processors DSP's first receive or detect a change in the encoded material they immediately mute the volume controllers and the correct bitstream detection routines are enabled. You sure don't want to hear what comes out your speakers while this nonsense is going on - it can be very damaging to the speakers in some cases.
But there's a tradeoff (as there always is in electronics). A manufacturer is perfectly capable of holding the mute long enough and combine it with a soft volume increase, but then everyone would be complaining they had to wait too long until their decoders locked onto the signal. Alternately, if the volume controller is un-muted too quickly you will get a digital chirp. So, while some manufacturers equipment seems to take forever for a "mode" change, others hedge their bets and you get that digital chirp.
I wonder if that's the problem?
brucek
-
I didn't look, but I'm guessing one of my posts is up there too. I think calling that sound a "chirp" is like calling a fire truck siren a "whistle". It's always loud (louder than whatever starts playing afterwards), startling, and very brief (less than 1 sec).
-
Exactly, Grit. Best description I have is...like an electrical *SNAP* or *ZZZT* at 105dB. Half a second at most.
-
I have mentioned it before in this thread but I have changed the output format from my Blu ray player from Bitstream to LPCM and I haven't heard the crackling noises since the format was changed. This is more important for me than an eventual loss in sound quality. The information that appears in the display window of the SP3 is not as informative as it used to be, but again, the absence of those chirps for me far outweighs these minor issues.
I don't know if this is possible for a HTPC but for a Blu ray player, it is worth a try.
HTH
Willy
-
Hi Willy P,
What is HTPC ?
If it is the cable receiver problem, with HDMI when switching between Dolby 2 channel commercial play and DTS multichannel movie content, then the new HDMi HSR72Q firmware version 52 would help. MDS addressed that glitch in the recent firmware release. That would work if and only if:
1) your card is HSR72Q (7 input 2 outputs 600MHz)
and
2) You would be able to send the unit to swap the card because the new HSR72Q cards no longer support the in-circuit programming feature that the old HDMI cards in the SP3 have used.
Stan Bleszynski
Bryston
c/c James Tanner
-
Hi Willy P,
What is HTPC ?
If it is the cable receiver problem, with HDMI when switching between Dolby 2 channel commercial play and DTS multichannel movie content, then the new HDMi HSR72Q firmware version 52 would help. MDS addressed that glitch in the recent firmware release. That would work if and only if:
1) your card is HSR72Q (7 input 2 outputs 600MHz)
and
2) You would be able to send the unit to swap the card because the new HSR72Q cards no longer support the in-circuit programming feature that the old HDMI cards in the SP3 have used.
Stan Bleszynski
Bryston
c/c James Tanner
"... the new HSR72Q cards..." ---> New, as of when?
-
Hi Willy P,
What is HTPC ?
If it is the cable receiver problem, with HDMI when switching between Dolby 2 channel commercial play and DTS multichannel movie content, then the new HDMi HSR72Q firmware version 52 would help. MDS addressed that glitch in the recent firmware release. That would work if and only if:
1) your card is HSR72Q (7 input 2 outputs 600MHz)
and
2) You would be able to send the unit to swap the card because the new HSR72Q cards no longer support the in-circuit programming feature that the old HDMI cards in the SP3 have used.
Stan Bleszynski
Bryston
c/c James Tanner
Hi Stan, I have sent an E-mail to you.
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
HTPC = Home Theater PC. Connected via HDMI to the SP3 for sound and 4K video.
Stan/James - I recently had the 4K HDMI upgrade applied to my SP3 (late last year I think) Does that mean I already have the HSR72Q firmware update? Is there a way for us to check?
-
Hi gravy,
From the main screen press right arrow beside the display (or use remote), then navigate to
SYSTEM SETUP-->TESTS-->SYSTEM STATUS-->HDMI VERSN
The value is 8 digit code, explanation of the code is given in this document:
http://support.bryston.com/downloads/sp3/documents/SP3_HDMI_board_revisions.txt
The older HSR72Q (from 2017 on) will read 00023A2E
Software release 46.2 (.2 = 0002)
Version 3Ah = 58= HSR72Q hardware model
The most recent boards installed from 2 months ago, have a speeded-up format switching
(according to manufacturer) would read 00343A2E
Software release 46.52 (52 = hex 0034)
Version 3Ah = 58= HSR72Q hardware model
I hope it helps,
Stan B.,
Bryston
-
Hi Stan,
When I do this, my SP3 returns the code 000F3A2E, which is not on the list.
Can you explain to me what this means?
Thank you in advance.
Willy
-
That's firmware revision 46.15 (15=000F). The switching improvement has been implemented on revision 46.52 (52=0034)
-
Thanks Stan, for your reply. Would it be possible for my SP3 to swap the HDMI board for the new board?
Kind regards,
Willy
-
Mine also reads "000F3A2E"
Is there any way someone can field-update this themselves if one has the skills and the proper chip puller? I sent my unit back just a few months ago for the HDMI board update and I'm hesitant to do that all over again.
**** TOTALLY echo Grit's comment below - thanks Stan and James and Bryston - reading back , my posts sound a little snarky, no snark intended :)
-
Ditto!
-- modified by adding the below text --
Actually, after posting this, I wanted to come back and note that I'm eternally grateful that Bryston offers updates at all. It makes my investment in Bryston equipment far more practical and thus enjoyable. I don't mean to whine about sending my SP3 in for an upgrade. I just wish there was an easier way. But thank you Bryston for supporting updates/upgrades!
-
Is there any news about the new HDMI board?
Kind regards,
WillyP
-
Hi Willy
1) The new card HSR82T would be incorporated in production within 3 to (more likely) 12 months depending on the workload with other product development . We are underpowered.
2) The new HSR82T will add two more features not present in the current card HSR72Q:
a) DSD-over-HDMI
b) eARC (ability to play back audio down-the-chain from the TV rather than only up-the-chain from the player). This will be, IMHO, more important in the future as more multimedia capability is being integrated into the TV sets so they TVs become also streamers and NAS play-capable.
Both (a) and (b) would require a few weeks of work to reinstate them in the SP3 firmware and retest.
3) The new card HSR82T will require reinstating the old back panel with 8 + 2 HDMI cut-outs and labels.
Note: the correct HDMI port labeling is one of the requirements of HDMI standard certification, even though for the customer it might not matter much. For example a customer may even install new HSR82T over the 7 + 2 cut-outs resulting in input 1 being inaccessible or we can remap 8-->1, 7-->2,... 2-->1. That would work but we are not allowed to do it by HDMI 2.0 rules. Input 1 must be physically labelled as 1 by paint or a sticker.
Stan
-
Hi James,
I'd definitely be interested. If I'm understanding Stan's email though, we're likely looking at summer/fall of 2020?
-
Hi James,
I'd definitely be interested. If I'm understanding Stan's email though, we're likely looking at summer/fall of 2020?
yes correct
-
Hi James,
Just wanted to check in for a possible update on the HSR82T HDMI board. I finally got my first "smart" TV (had a Pioneer Kuro plasma for a decade!) and now I finally have a reason to care about eARC. :)
-
Ouch - I'm running into the issue that when I play a full Bluray disk on my computer, sometimes the menu "music" is completely loud static, I have to mute it until I hit the play button - once the movie starts, the SP3 locks on and Dolby TrueHD plays fine.
I've had to resort to setting a script to mute the SP3 anytime I'm playing Bluray menus, just in case. Wish there was a fix for the DTS / Dolby switching issue that I think is the root cause here, based on the info in the thread? Stan, is there any logging or troubleshooting or debugging we can do to pin point why this occurs?
-
Bump for the last two posts