Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?

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wildberger

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Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« on: 20 Feb 2014, 03:18 am »
  system: Dynaudio contour 1.1, Musical Fidelity 3Acr amp, Placette pre with a Rega Planet driving a CI VDA 2 etc.   

  Currently using a Janis W-2 sub.  I listen to majority classical music  80% with a mix of everything else. I am contemplating adding the Rythmik F12G & 2 GIK bass traps. The 2 bass traps are a sure thing.

   Given this mix of components and music, is there likely to be audible improvement?
It is my 'impression' that the Janis is a little 'vague?' as the bass descends,  drops off is in decibel's below 30hz. Only sub I have ever had in my home.

 I am asking in this forum because many have had actual exposure to the Rythmik sub and probably to other as well with in the same milieu, maybe a few might be familiar with the Janis. (crossover fixed a 100hz) does have infinite phase adjustment.

   I would appreciate opinions.  Thanks 

mlundy57

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #1 on: 20 Feb 2014, 05:34 am »
I don't know anything about the Janis but if you think it is a little vague then you will notice a tremendous difference with the Rythmik F12G.

While I haven't heard the F12G, I have a Rythmik F12 and it is the cleanest most articulate sub I have ever heard while still packing plenty of punch for movie sound effects. The crossover is fully adjustable on either model with the F12G being able to be crossed over higher than the F12.

Mike

 

wildberger

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #2 on: 20 Feb 2014, 11:41 am »
Thanks for the feedback!... much of my impression is based on the perception of the GR
woofer excelling in music reproduction my assumption that 'even'? on classical and acoustic music
it makes an audible difference.

mlundy57

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #3 on: 20 Feb 2014, 01:25 pm »
You are correct, it does make a difference. My musical preferences include classical (including organ), guitar (classical and flamenco), Native American flute, new age, pop and classic rock. The GR subwoofer is a little faster than the Rythmik woofer so be even better with music.

Mike

bdp24

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #4 on: 20 Feb 2014, 01:46 pm »
Thanks for the feedback!... much of my impression is based on the perception of the GR
woofer excelling in music reproduction my assumption that 'even'? on classical and acoustic music
it makes an audible difference.

I would say the GR Servo sub makes MORE difference on acoustic music, as it generally goes through less processing than non-acoustic music. I listen to mostly acoustic music (bluegrass, hard country, singer/songwriter, folk, etc.) and classical (baroque, early classical, some romantic). I remember the Janis---a down-firing 18" paper cone driver in a 6th-order arrangement, wasn't it? It's only competition was the Hartley, a 24". From the 70's, both got used with Quad ELS's a lot. The GR's are quite a bit "tidier", as the Brits say!

wildberger

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #5 on: 20 Feb 2014, 02:20 pm »
Thanks for the helpful replies. Much violin, piano, cello and acoustic music. My Janis is 12" firing
up through slots. Limited experience with subs in my own listening space.  Sounds a little 'loose', unarticulated?...though bass lends itself to some degree of ?fuzziness? in my limited experience.
The bottom on my Dynaudio's sounds tighter than the Janis close to equivalent.

walkern

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #6 on: 20 Feb 2014, 03:31 pm »
I've got a GR version of the F12, and I've had experience with the Janis W-2 in the past.  Although the W-2 was an outstanding sub for it's day, the Rhthmik servo is much more articulate and precise.  It sounds less like a sub, and more like a musical instrument.  Less overhang is a delightful thing.  I would not expect to be 'wowed' by the change though.  I would expect you to gradually discover how realistic things sound, and then realize what you are missing... thump and bump... replaced by real tone and speed.  Just MHO.

bdp24

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #7 on: 20 Feb 2014, 07:53 pm »
Thanks for the helpful replies. Much violin, piano, cello and acoustic music. My Janis is 12" firing
up through slots. Limited experience with subs in my own listening space.  Sounds a little 'loose', unarticulated?...though bass lends itself to some degree of ?fuzziness? in my limited experience.
The bottom on my Dynaudio's sounds tighter than the Janis close to equivalent.

It may be that there was a W-1 and a W-2, with different sized woofers. But yeah, it's the slot loading I remembered. The 6th-order arrangement employs slot-loading too, and it have been that down-firing Muse sub from the '90's I was thinking of; it had a cabinet that looked like the Janis---real nice wood enclosures, like Walnut and Mahogany. The Hartley was what Levinson used in his big Q(uad)D(ecca)H(artley) creation in the 70's, and what Wilson used in his original Frankenstein Speaker (parts from here, parts from there), the W(ilson)A(udio)M(odular)M(onitor)---a single 24" below a pair of KEF B-139's per speaker. $90,000 a pair I think they were, in 1970's dollars! Plus they required three stereo amps, IIRC. And he sold some! I heard them at a dealer in San Jose once, and Brooks Berdan took a pair in on trade about ten years ago, for a pair of.....new Wilson's, of course.

mlundy57

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #8 on: 20 Feb 2014, 08:58 pm »
I've got a GR version of the F12, and I've had experience with the Janis W-2 in the past.  Although the W-2 was an outstanding sub for it's day, the Rhthmik servo is much more articulate and precise.  It sounds less like a sub, and more like a musical instrument.  Less overhang is a delightful thing.  I would not expect to be 'wowed' by the change though.  I would expect you to gradually discover how realistic things sound, and then realize what you are missing... thump and bump... replaced by real tone and speed.  Just MHO.

I agree with walkern. When I first hooked up the F12, music was full and well flushed out in the bass but I could not tell if the F12 was working until I went over to it and removed the grill. Then I could see the driver moving.

With music I couldn't tell that a subwoofer was playing. With movies I could definitely tell there was a subwoofer playing. Bass like that simply did not come out of the book shelf speakers I was using. However, even though I knew a subwoofer was playing I couldn't tell where it was. It sounded like the bass was coming from all around.

Mike

Mike

Captainhemo

Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #9 on: 20 Feb 2014, 09:04 pm »
If you've got the room (need to keep these out from the walls),  you may want to look into  a pair of the  GR  SW-12-16FR's (http://gr-research.com/sw-12-16fr.aspx) in an open baffle config.   These could give you  the most detail and accuracy  if they'll work in your room.   
Give Danny a shout and have a chat with him about  them, he'll be able to help you determine if  they'd be a good   choice for your room

-jay

wildberger

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #10 on: 20 Feb 2014, 11:06 pm »
Cap-  You have given me more to think about. I will contact Danny to discuss.

I agree with walkern. When I first hooked up the F12, music was full and well flushed out in the bass but I could not tell if the F12 was working until I went over to it and removed the grill. Then I could see the driver moving.

With music I couldn't tell that a subwoofer was playing. With movies I could definitely tell there was a subwoofer playing. Bass like that simply did not come out of the book shelf speakers I was using. However, even though I knew a subwoofer was playing I couldn't tell where it was. It sounded like the bass was coming from all around.

Mike

This is just what I am hoping for, thanks for the comments

                    -len

oskar

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #11 on: 21 Feb 2014, 02:48 pm »
If you've got the room (need to keep these out from the walls),  you may want to look into  a pair of the  GR  SW-12-16FR's (http://gr-research.com/sw-12-16fr.aspx) in an open baffle config.   These could give you  the most detail and accuracy  if they'll work in your room.   
Give Danny a shout and have a chat with him about  them, he'll be able to help you determine if  they'd be a good   choice for your room

-jay

I am going to build a pair of GR servo subs one day soon and was leaning toward OB.
I wasn't aware that they needed to be away from walls/boundaries like mains are required to be.
So should I be thinking sealed boxes instead? I can bring them maybe a foot from the front wall.
Thx

Danny Richie

Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #12 on: 21 Feb 2014, 04:54 pm »
Hey Wilberger,

Looks like you got some good feedback from our customers.

I will also add that Rythmik Audio caters to the non-DIY guy. He offers everything fully assembled and ready to play. You can even get them with our woofers.

We cater to the DIY guy that wants to build their own. So we can sell you our woofer and the Rythmik servo amp and provide cabinet plans for you so you can build your own cabinet to look anyway you want.

Oskar,

The open baffle woofers can be placed very close to a side wall, but you must get them out into the room and away from the front or rear wall. If your location limits you to no more than a foot from those walls then I advise the sealed box version.

wildberger

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #13 on: 21 Feb 2014, 09:59 pm »
"Hey Wilberger,

Looks like you got some good feedback from our customers.

I will also add that Rythmik Audio caters to the non-DIY guy. He offers everything fully assembled and ready to play. You can even get them with our woofers.

We cater to the DIY guy that wants to build their own. So we can sell you our woofer and the Rythmik servo amp and provide cabinet plans for you so you can build your own cabinet to look anyway you want"

Hey Danny,  That was my intention, to get a Rythmik with the GR woofer and 'up grade' it with 3/4" MDF cut to size and nail glued on inside with no rez from you.
   Do the floor spikes on your site work with the Rythmik sub?
   

Danny Richie

Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #14 on: 21 Feb 2014, 10:07 pm »
"Hey Wilberger,

Looks like you got some good feedback from our customers.

I will also add that Rythmik Audio caters to the non-DIY guy. He offers everything fully assembled and ready to play. You can even get them with our woofers.

We cater to the DIY guy that wants to build their own. So we can sell you our woofer and the Rythmik servo amp and provide cabinet plans for you so you can build your own cabinet to look anyway you want"

Hey Danny,  That was my intention, to get a Rythmik with the GR woofer and 'up grade' it with 3/4" MDF cut to size and nail glued on inside with no rez from you.
   Do the floor spikes on your site work with the Rythmik sub?
 

If you order a sub from Rythmik they do come with floor spikes. They are a small spike. My larger ones do not interchange with them. Mine need a larger threaded insert.

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #15 on: 22 Feb 2014, 01:07 pm »
I have a friend who recently bought a Rhythmic to pair with his Magnepan 1.7's.  He spoke to the guy at Rhythmik and they recommended the standard woofer as opposed to the GR paper woofer for better speed and accuracy as well as longevity.  I got to hear it and it is very tight and musical sounding.  I currently use a Martin Logan sub with my Magnepans.  It is every bit as fast, controlled and musical as the Rhythmic but the Rhythmic is a better buy.

oskar

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #16 on: 22 Feb 2014, 03:06 pm »
Alright so sealed is the way to go for me. If I start with one 8" servo sealed and the Rythmik amp can I add another sub down the road and use the same amp to drive both subs? Or do these drivers have to be used in parallel? That is, must I start with two. I'm confused when I read - "The SW-8-16FR has a nominal 16 ohm impedance and is designed to be used in pairs (paralleled) or with three woofers all paralleled on a single Direct Servo amplifier."
Thanks.

walkern

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Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #17 on: 22 Feb 2014, 03:23 pm »
I should qualify that my comments about the GR sub apply to the 12" sealed version only.  I have not heard any of the open baffle models (no room in my room to get them far enough away from the back wall), nor have I heard the 8" subs.  I'm sure the smaller subs sound as fast and clean as the larger models (maybe even faster?), but they may not play quite as loud... so consider the total volume you are trying to achieve.  On the other hand, if you've got a tricky room with cancellation issues at or near your listening position, having two subs located in different spots in your room will help you overcome that better (in most cases) than having a bigger or more powerful sub.

Neil

Danny Richie

Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #18 on: 22 Feb 2014, 04:57 pm »
I have a friend who recently bought a Rhythmic to pair with his Magnepan 1.7's.  He spoke to the guy at Rhythmik and they recommended the standard woofer as opposed to the GR paper woofer for better speed and accuracy as well as longevity.  I got to hear it and it is very tight and musical sounding.  I currently use a Martin Logan sub with my Magnepans.  It is every bit as fast, controlled and musical as the Rhythmic but the Rhythmic is a better buy.

Actually the lighter weight paper cone offers more speed and accuracy. And longevity shouldn't really be an issue. Neither is going to ware out faster than the other.

And the servo controlled woofers on average will have a return to rest capability that is about 7 times faster then the Martin Logan sub. There really isn't much comparisons to be honest. The servo control systems offers a lot more control and low frequency extension.

Danny Richie

Re: Janis W-2 to Rythmik F12G ?
« Reply #19 on: 22 Feb 2014, 04:59 pm »
Alright so sealed is the way to go for me. If I start with one 8" servo sealed and the Rythmik amp can I add another sub down the road and use the same amp to drive both subs? Or do these drivers have to be used in parallel? That is, must I start with two. I'm confused when I read - "The SW-8-16FR has a nominal 16 ohm impedance and is designed to be used in pairs (paralleled) or with three woofers all paralleled on a single Direct Servo amplifier."
Thanks.

The real factor to keep in mind is the impedance. 4 ohms is the target low. You can't go lower than that. So you can use one 4 ohm woofer, two 8 ohm woofers or up to three of the open baffle woofers on one amp.