AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: audioengr on 31 Dec 2011, 10:46 pm
-
The Synchro-Mesh is a result of many requests for a reclocker that works with any device, no mods to the device required.
Unlike the Pace-Car, the Synchro-Mesh does not deliver bit-perfect data. It is resampled. As the name suggests, it matches the speed of any device to the speed of the new Master Clock in the Synchro-Mesh, providing a low-jitter but not bit-perfect output. It utilizes the best resampler chip ever developed with very low distortion and noise floor.
The Synchro-Mesh uses the clock and Hynes regulator technology in other Empirical Audio products.
Some photos of the first working board:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55749)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55750)
As you can see, it has inputs:
Toslink, S/PDIF RCA, S/PDIF 75 ohm BNC
and outputs:
Toslink, S/PDIF RCA, S/PDIF 75 ohm BNC
It is galvanically isolated on input and output.
It resamples and outputs 44.1, but can output 16-bit or 24-bit (switch selectable). Other versions may be offered at 24/96 if there is enough demand, and one clock upgrade may be offered.
This is the ideal device to use with Apple TV, Sonos, AirPort Express, Wadia i170 and many all-in-one servers. It also works nicely with any CD transport. It simply inserts in-line between the source device and the DAC, SS processor or SS receiver. Two cables are required. Comes with an AC adapter. Pricing TBD, but the standard Synchro-Mesh is expected to be in the $400-500 range.
Steve N.
-
Cool. 8)
One question. For use with, say, Apple TV, does the Synchro-Mesh introduce a delay? A delay could unsync audio and video.
-
Cool. 8)
One question. For use with, say, Apple TV, does the Synchro-Mesh introduce a delay? A delay could unsync audio and video.
Good question. I dont believe so, but the chip specs dont give a clue here. I need to beta test one with a customer. Are you volunteering?
I am using it right now with a stock Sonos. Big difference.
Steve N.
-
Sure I'll volunteer. I need better movie-watching sound. I have a video scaler with which I can adjust audio latency, if required. I think I will put the board inside my scaler (lots of room) so I don't need a case. Let me know payment details etc., here or through PM.
-
Sure I'll volunteer. I need better movie-watching sound. I have a video scaler with which I can adjust audio latency, if required. I think I will put the board inside my scaler (lots of room) so I don't need a case. Let me know payment details etc., here or through PM.
If you only need the board, then you can get this a LOT sooner. Its a new case size and I dont have them yet. I was planning to do a rev 2 PC board for production to get rid of that blue wire etc..
I can maybe build another one by hand for you. Otherwise, you would have to wait 2 months. Shipping to Canada is a bit of a hassle for a beta too...
Is your audio sample-rate with the movies 44.1 or 48?
Steve N.
-
Yeah, I just need the board, and I don't mind the blue wire. My sample rate is 44.1.
-
Yeah, I just need the board, and I don't mind the blue wire. My sample rate is 44.1.
Okay, it takes me a day to build one. I should have free time for this in the next two weeks. I have to complete the BOM to see what the pricing will be. I'll let you know by email.
Steve N.
-
Ok, Steve, sounds good. Happy New Year!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=55754)
-
Steve, if used with a Sonos or AppleTV or similar, how does it sound (assuming it's set to output the same sample rate that's coming in)?
-
Steve, if used with a Sonos or AppleTV or similar, how does it sound (assuming it's set to output the same sample rate that's coming in)?
I am using Sonos with one right now. Without it, the image collapses into a ball at the front center and the detail is muddy. With it, the detail is crisp and imaging is great. Wide and deep soundstage. I have a percussion track that really shows this.
It does not achieve that last 5% that my USB interface gets, but its really close. The Turboclock also delivers better bass. You will not miss it though since the bass using Turboclock is really over the top, better than any other source I have had.
It only supports one sample-rate, 44.1.
Steve N.
-
Very pleased to hear about the Synchro-Mesh re-clocker. As a Sonos user, I love the Ipad interface but the sound quality could be better. Pace-Car is a excellent solution for better sound. But for those with a more limited budget, it’s nice to have another option from Empirical Audio.
I wonder how the Synchro-Mesh re-clocker compares to the Sonos mod from Wyred4Sound… or Pace-Car? Hopefully, the sound quality is somewhere in between.
Reading the initial comments above, I gather the SM re-clocker will not play hi-resolution music. Is the re-clocker designed to be easily be modified to play hi-resolution music if that capability is offered later? If not, Pace-Car may be the better, “future-proof” solution for many.
-
Very pleased to hear about the Synchro-Mesh re-clocker. As a Sonos user, I love the Ipad interface but the sound quality could be better. Pace-Car is a excellent solution for better sound. But for those with a more limited budget, it’s nice to have another option from Empirical Audio.
I wonder how the Synchro-Mesh re-clocker compares to the Sonos mod from Wyred4Sound… or Pace-Car? Hopefully, the sound quality is somewhere in between.
I think it is almost as good as the Pace-Car. Pace-Car can use better clocks however.
Reading the initial comments above, I gather the SM re-clocker will not play hi-resolution music. Is the re-clocker designed to be easily be modified to play hi-resolution music if that capability is offered later? If not, Pace-Car may be the better, “future-proof” solution for many.
The current model is designed to reduce cost, so it only outputs one sample-rate. It could be 24/96 however. If you wanted 44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96 resampled to 24/96, it can do this.
Steve N.
-
Hi Steve
Just a quick question for Squeezebox users. On The Squeezebox you can use its internal up-sampling and internal volume control no problem without bit dropping because it upsamples to 24 bit. If fed 24bit's will the re-clocker only accept the first 16 so you really can't use the digital volume control?
Thanks
Bill
-
I have a Playstation 3 streaming netflix to a mini-DSP (24/96) and fully active digital speakers using tube amps. If you need a tester for a platform other than Apple TV, I volunteer! :)
-
Ooooh this looks VERY interesting. :D
Steve N, you have email.
-
Hi Steve
Just a quick question for Squeezebox users. On The Squeezebox you can use its internal up-sampling and internal volume control no problem without bit dropping because it upsamples to 24 bit. If fed 24bit's will the re-clocker only accept the first 16 so you really can't use the digital volume control?
Thanks
Bill
I think the volume control will work in any case. You can select 16 or 24 bit output. It can resample at 44.1 or 96 or any other rate you need, but only one.
Steve N.
-
I think the volume control will work in any case. You can select 16 or 24 bit output. It can resample at 44.1 or 96 or any other rate you need, but only one.
Steve N.
Thanks Steve.
I guess that means it accepts 24 bits without bit dropping.
I have posted about it on the forum out here in Aus and already and a couple of people are interested. I thought this was something they would want to know so wanted it out there.
Just another question could you do an I2S output version for DAC's that accept it?
Thanks
Bill
-
Thanks Steve.
I guess that means it accepts 24 bits without bit dropping.
I have posted about it on the forum out here in Aus and already and a couple of people are interested. I thought this was something they would want to know so wanted it out there.
Just another question could you do an I2S output version for DAC's that accept it?
Thanks
Bill
I2S is possible, but its another design. I think my Hot-Rod DAC is probably more important to design....
The OR5 makes mores sense if you are going to the trouble of I2S.
Steve N.
-
Steve,
What is your planning for the hot rod dac?
Very much interested.
Will it have balanced out?
Roger
-
Steve,
What is your planning for the hot rod dac?
Very much interested.
Will it have balanced out?
Roger
In order to make it affordable and high performance, it will have USB input only and RCA outs only. No Volume control.
Steve N.
-
How much performance do you expect it to deliver (comaper to overdrive) and for what price?
Roger
-
How much performance do you expect it to deliver (comaper to overdrive) and for what price?
Roger
I plan to offer the Hot Rod DAC at $1499.00 or less. It will have Off-Ramp 5 USB interface, good clocks and Hynes regs etc..
I dont expect it to beat Overdrive, but I expect it to be very close if both are comparing RCA outs and both are driving preamps.
It has some innovations that the Overdrive does not, including DC-coupled output (can't do this with my Overdrive Volume technology). Because it is not balanced in design, it will probably have a tad more compression than the Overdrive. It will use a newer D/A chip, probably the AD1955, so this may make up for that. It will use less expensive RCA connectors like the Synchro-Mesh.
Steve N.
-
I'm very interested in this as I run an integrated amp.
Would prefer balanced out, too bad it ads too much to the costs.
When do you expect it to be available?
Roger
-
Steve,
The Synchro sounds very interesting. Bhobba started asking about the SB Touch, but went a different route. If I were to use the Synchro between the SB Touch and a DAC:
- What's the implication of the Synchro not being bit-perfect? I usually see in forums and online magazines people refer to this as non-desirable.
- The Touch outputs 24/96, so I would be better off getting a 24/96 version...which you plan to offer, right? When?
- What would be the best setup if I am to use a Touch and a separate DAC? BTW, your hot-rod DAC might throw me yet into another loop...oh well!
Thanks!
-
I'm very interested in this as I run an integrated amp.
Would prefer balanced out, too bad it ads too much to the costs.
When do you expect it to be available?
Roger
Probably late summer to fall 2012.
Steve N.
-
Steve,
The Synchro sounds very interesting. Bhobba started asking about the SB Touch, but went a different route. If I were to use the Synchro between the SB Touch and a DAC:
- What's the implication of the Synchro not being bit-perfect? I usually see in forums and online magazines people refer to this as non-desirable.
It does change the sound at the high frequencies a little. Loses a tad bit of clarity over the OR5 for instance. It is really good for a resampler though.
- The Touch outputs 24/96, so I would be better off getting a 24/96 version...which you plan to offer, right? When?
Probably. I'll offer it at launch.
- What would be the best setup if I am to use a Touch and a separate DAC? BTW, your hot-rod DAC might throw me yet into another loop...oh well!
The best I can do to improve a stock Touch is the Synchro-Mesh. I may offer clock upgrades for it too. I have yet to experiment with these.
Steve N.
-
Hello Steve:
I am not a frequent follower of your Circle so please excuse me if the following is something you have covered before.
I too own a Sonos system and have used it primarlily for listening to Internet radio and streaming music services at lower bitrates.
I have never tried a Sonos device in my "big-rig". Your new proposed Synchro-Mesh reclocker intrigues me. What I would like to know is this:
I assume that the music that you are playing through your Sonos is from your own music collection at 16/44.1. I would appreciate if you explain how you have ripped your CD collection in order to achieve maximum fidelity. I am new to this end of the hobby and would like to follow your lead in ripping my Cds.
Your advice would be appreciated.
-
Hello Steve:
I am not a frequent follower of your Circle so please excuse me if the following is something you have covered before.
I too own a Sonos system and have used it primarlily for listening to Internet radio and streaming music services at lower bitrates.
I have never tried a Sonos device in my "big-rig". Your new proposed Synchro-Mesh reclocker intrigues me. What I would like to know is this:
I assume that the music that you are playing through your Sonos is from your own music collection at 16/44.1. I would appreciate if you explain how you have ripped your CD collection in order to achieve maximum fidelity. I am new to this end of the hobby and would like to follow your lead in ripping my Cds.
Your advice would be appreciated.
I mostly use dbpoweramp and play ripped CD's on the Sonos. The ZP-90 has been gathering dust here until I designed the Synchro-Mesh. Now its worth listening to.
See my tips for computer audio here:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/ (http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/)
Steve N.
-
I mostly use dbpoweramp and play ripped CD's on the Sonos. The ZP-90 has been gathering dust here until I designed the Synchro-Mesh. Now its worth listening to.
See my tips for computer audio here:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/ (http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/)
Steve N.
Steve:
1: Assuming that dbpoweramp is used correctly, and using the Sonos unmodded with the Synchro-Mesh: will the audio quality be comparable to using a good CD transport?
2: You wrote something previously about Sonos that I have never read anywhere else. You stated that the 16/44.1 output from a Sonos is actually 24/44.1. Can you explain what this means and how you determined this.
3: Why does the Synchro-mesh eliminate the need for modding the Sonos?
Please reply when convenient.
-
Steve:
1: Assuming that dbpoweramp is used correctly, and using the Sonos unmodded with the Synchro-Mesh: will the audio quality be comparable to using a good CD transport?
Depends on your definition of good. It will probably beat any transport less than $3K.
2: You wrote something previously about Sonos that I have never read anywhere else. You stated that the 16/44.1 output from a Sonos is actually 24/44.1. Can you explain what this means and how you determined this.
I dont remember saying this. Maybe I read it elsewhere. Even if this is the case, I dont believe it matters when using the Synchro-Mesh since it resamples. 24-bit at 44.1 seems to sound better out of the Synchro-Mesh. This was the same result with my older Off-Ramp 3. Changed 16-bit to 24 bit for 44.1. Sounded better.
3: Why does the Synchro-mesh eliminate the need for modding the Sonos?
I previously required a mod to the Sonos to work with the Pace-Car. No such mod is required for the Synchro-Mesh. Also, any mods to the Sonos to reduce jitter will not make any difference since the Synchro-Mesh resamples and establishes a new master clock.
Steve N.
-
Depends on your definition of good. It will probably beat any transport less than $3K.
I dont remember saying this. Maybe I read it elsewhere. Even if this is the case, I dont believe it matters when using the Synchro-Mesh since it resamples. 24-bit at 44.1 seems to sound better out of the Synchro-Mesh. This was the same result with my older Off-Ramp 3. Changed 16-bit to 24 bit for 44.1. Sounded better.
I previously required a mod to the Sonos to work with the Pace-Car. No such mod is required for the Synchro-Mesh. Also, any mods to the Sonos to reduce jitter will not make any difference since the Synchro-Mesh resamples and establishes a new master clock.
Steve N.
Hi Steve:
Here is the comment you made about the 24/44.1 Sonos. Perhaps I read it out of cotext:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70106.0
In any case - when will this product be released?
-
Hi Steve:
Here is the comment you made about the 24/44.1 Sonos. Perhaps I read it out of cotext:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70106.0
In any case - when will this product be released?
Estimate is 4-6 weeks depending on my assembly house.
Steve N.
-
I have one at a reviewer and more going soon. I have the final panels on the way and the circuit boards are here.
I can take pre-orders using PayPal now. $599.00 plus $30 shipping.
Here are some more photos:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59119)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=59121)
Steve N.
-
I'm excited. :o
-
This reclocker is very interesting but does it completely remove jitter?
Will it stay at 600$ or something.. i wish it would be something like 350$..
-
This reclocker is very interesting but does it completely remove jitter?
Nothing completely removes jitter. Anyone that tells you this does not know anything about it. Marketing BS.
It is a lot better than competing resampler/reclocker products, but not as good as my async USB interface. This has lower jitter.
Will it stay at 600$ or something.. i wish it would be something like 350$..
Me too, but in order to get the clock and regulator technology necessary to provide low jitter, it's expensive. I sell these direct, and there is still very little margin in it for me.
Steve N.
-
what is the measured latency of the device? how much real latency does it add to the signal?
-
what is the measured latency of the device? how much real latency does it add to the signal?
the delay through the Synchro-Mesh is less than 10uSec. Not audible.
Steve N.
-
Steve, the synchro-mesh sounds excellent. I use for TV watching fed via optical by an Apple TV. It works like a charm, and cleans up the jittery optical signal very nicely. Great product!
-
I'm trying to understand what this does. If I add it to my cdp, and it's currently not a transport, but one day I'll buy a new dac, what does this device do for me and is it a $600 upgrade? Worth it I mean? That's a lot for a tertiary inline device.
-
Rclark, it's a dejitterer. If your source outputs less jitter than the SM, the SM will degrade the sound. If it outputs more, the SM will improve the sound regardless what it feeds. Call the SM almost a Pace-Car.
-
I'm trying to understand what this does. If I add it to my cdp, and it's currently not a transport, but one day I'll buy a new dac, what does this device do for me and is it a $600 upgrade? Worth it I mean? That's a lot for a tertiary inline device.
It reduces jitter for any digital 2-channel music source device, such as CD Transport, Apple TV, Sonos, music servers etc.. Reducing this jitter improves imaging, bass, focus, soundstage and slam.
The Master Clock jitter in these source devices is actually more important than the quality of the DAC. You can buy the most expensive DAC in the world and it will still not sound great with your CD transport. The Synchro-Mesh makes any digital source sound great with ANY DAC.
Steve N.
-
The sound is fantastically good through the SM.
-
Does sound interesting. And so clearly must be put between a dac and player of choice. I'll keep this on my radar. Thanks!
-
You can buy the most expensive DAC in the world and it will still not sound great with your CD transport.
Steve N.
There is not always a direct correlation with cost/performance or any product for that matter. :duh:
-
Thanks for the absolutism, JT.
-
There is not always a direct correlation with cost/performance or any product for that matter. :duh:
That is certainly true, although not my point. My point is that the clock is THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in digital audio. Improve that and even some cheap Chinese DACs can sound like megabuck DACs.
I'm confident that the MH would probably match or beat the Weiss 202 with a low enough jitter input. Its already been demonstrated with the VDAC, W4S and BelCanto 3.5.
Steve N.
-
Huh. What do you think it would do for an Emotiva Erc-2 as transport? Are you familiar with the clock devices in that?
-
Huh. What do you think it would do for an Emotiva Erc-2 as transport? Are you familiar with the clock devices in that?
No, I'm not familiar. Its hard to predict. You can always try one. It will have money-back guarantee. You pay shipping and fees.
Steve N.
-
Is there no way to know for sure? Is that what most people do, just try it and see? What's the typical result? What's a bad result like?What if I looked up the clock device in my player, could you tell from that?
-
Is there no way to know for sure? Is that what most people do, just try it and see? What's the typical result? What's a bad result like?What if I looked up the clock device in my player, could you tell from that?
There is no way to know without listening to its effect.
Even if you could look up the clock in your CD transport, which I doubt, this would not tell you much. The internal system jitter depends on the power supplies inside and the design and implementation. You can have the most expensive clock on the planet in there and still end-up with high relative jitter if the rest of the circuit design and the PC board and cables are compromised.
I modded about 10 different transports to add low-jitter clocks and other circuit and power improvements for nearly 10 years, so I have seen a lot of designs. The vast majority of these were poorly designed with resulting high jitter, even from large "respected" companies.
All aspects of this design must be optimum to achieve low jitter at a system level.
Steve N.
-
Huh, very interesting. This is an aspect of system building I really hadn't seen yet. I have several steps to complete first but I will sure keep this in mind.
-
Hey your article on jitter was excellent! Your description of jitter as like an fm modulation was very clear, and makes understandable why it's such a complex problem.
Your descriptions of the different sources of jitter finally made clear to me why cd players can vary so much in price. It's all about lowering jitter.
Anyway, neat. I am confused by your product range, however, in your forum references are made to products I don't see on your site, and I don't understand at all what all the upgrade options do.
Still, tentatively interested in trying your synchromesh with an inexpensive dac. Heck, I sold my XDA-1 but I might just go ahead and buy another one, and pair it with your synchro mesh.
I have new amps, subs, and other products lined up in the que first, but I'm interested.
Do you have any other articles I might read?
Thanks again.
-
Hey your article on jitter was excellent! Your description of jitter as like an fm modulation was very clear, and makes understandable why it's such a complex problem.
Your descriptions of the different sources of jitter finally made clear to me why cd players can vary so much in price. It's all about lowering jitter.
Anyway, neat. I am confused by your product range, however, in your forum references are made to products I don't see on your site, and I don't understand at all what all the upgrade options do.
Still, tentatively interested in trying your synchromesh with an inexpensive dac. Heck, I sold my XDA-1 but I might just go ahead and buy another one, and pair it with your synchro mesh.
I have new amps, subs, and other products lined up in the que first, but I'm interested.
Do you have any other articles I might read?
Thanks again.
Unfortunately, the site is waiting on Overdrive chassis changes and subsequent professional photos for an update. Lots of vendors involved, including metal finishing, machine shops and anodizing companies. Until those photos are taken, I can only update verbage on the website, and I cannot put Synchro-Mesh out there without pro photos.
Here are some other things to read:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/ (http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/technical-papers/)
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/ (http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/)
Steve N.
-
Awesome, thank you sir.
-
Synchro-Mesh assembled boards are finally in, so they will start shipping next week.
Steve N.
-
Still envisioning trying this in my system. It will be some time before I pick another dac, however. Doing preamp, and new amps first.
-
Synchro-Mesh assembled boards are finally in, so they will start shipping next week.
Steve N.
Sweet!
-
First Synchro-Mesh review is out:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical4/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/empirical4/1.html)
Nice :thumb:
-
Hi Steve,
24/96 out will be a far more flexible unit for myself; but is there much drop in SQ for Redbook vs 24/44.1? Many Thanks.
Cheers,
Charles T.
-
Hi Steve,
24/96 out will be a far more flexible unit for myself; but is there much drop in SQ for Redbook vs 24/44.1? Many Thanks.
Cheers,
Charles T.
Its primarily a DAC thing. Most DACs sound better with 24-bit and 96.
The difference between 24/44.1 and 24/96 on my DAC (with high digital filter on) is indistinguishable. Most DACs dont have the digital filtering selectable though.
Steve N.
Steve N.