AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: James Tanner on 28 Jun 2016, 04:14 pm
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Bryston S2.28 Firmware Update offers Roon Ready Capability for Digital Music
Players BDP-1, BDP-1USB and BDP-2
Elegant music library management and TIDAL integration enhances user experience for award winning Bryston digital music players
Bryston (bryston.com) has announced new firmware version S2.28 for their digital music players that delivers Roon Ready capability. Roon Labs has created a software solution that delivers the ultimate user experience by merging Bryston’s exceptional BDP digital playback hardware with an intuitive, graphically rich music library management and playback software. Users get the superb sound of Bryston digital players with a highly refined user interface.
Tech Talk:
When using Roon, there are three components involved: The Roon Core, which must exist within a computer (PC or MAC) or a compatible drive on the home network so that it can have local access to your digital music collection, a remote or user interface (iOS or Android device as well as any computer) also on the network, and an end point—which in this case would be any Bryston digital music player. Adapting the Bryston BDP music players so that they are now Roon Ready devices enables users to benefit from the remarkable sound quality of Bryston's BDP-1, BDP-1USB and BDP-2 players with a bright, colorful and intuitive user interface that provides new features and accessibility to the listening experience. Roon transfers the audio files to the Bryston BDP player using a bit perfect system, enabling Bryston’s ultra-precise clock, linear power supply and custom integrated audio device (IAD) to convert ,the content to a digital bitstream that is ready for an outboard DAC.
Another advantage of the Roon interface is their unique approach to TIDAL lossless streaming integration for subscribers. Now BDP users can have their TIDAL favorites aggregated with their local\ music library so that searches and playlists can include content from both sources. With a simple firmware update, all BDP-1, BDP-1USB and BDP-2 devices become Roon Ready. Use the
Update Firmware function in Settings to update to the new version S2.28 firmware. Bryston is offering a free 60-day Roon trial coupon for a limited time. Interested users can learn more at roonlabs.com.
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I LOVE YOU, MAN!!
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What does this mean (I have no experience with Roon)? :scratch:
"The Roon Core, which must exist within a computer (PC or MAC) or a compatible drive on the home network..."
Right now, I have my FLAC music files on a USB stick connected to my BDP-2 & use MPaD on my iPad. Would I need to introduce a computer or NAS to my setup?
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Use the
Update Firmware function in Settings to update to the new version S2.28 firmware. Bryston is offering a free 60-day Roon trial coupon for a limited time. Interested users can learn more at roonlabs.com.
Cool James,
When will this be available?
Of course interested in the extra trial period. Comes with the update ?
Cheers,
Marius
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Cool James,
When will this be available?
Of course interested in the extra trial period. Comes with the update ?
Cheers,
Marius
Chris should have the software ready by weeks end.
james
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by weeks end he means as of a few minutes ago
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145784)
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What does this mean (I have no experience with Roon)? :scratch:
"The Roon Core, which must exist within a computer (PC or MAC) or a compatible drive on the home network..."
Right now, I have my FLAC music files on a USB stick connected to my BDP-2 & use MPaD on my iPad. Would I need to introduce a computer or NAS to my setup?
Roon requires you to run there server software on a computer, one of average to high end spec or a high end nas.
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/what-are-the-minimum-system-hardware-requirements/103
Cheers,
Chris
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by weeks end he means as of a few minutes ago
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145784)
Downloading.....
What About the trial? How to register for that?
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I've updated the firmware (seemed faster than in the past), enabled the BDP-1 in Roon, and am playing now. Sounds fab!!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145785)
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Downloading.....
What About the trial? How to register for that?
https://roonlabs.com/coupon.html
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Thank you,
I've created a Roon account and entered the redeem code for the trail from Services so I can now run Roon for two months but how do I download Roon?
I can only find a membership button which asks for my CC details and says it will charge me 119 usd immediately. Can I only have the 'free' trail if I pay up now? Or is my payment deferred for 60 days?
docder
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https://roonlabs.com/downloads.html
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Thank you again.
I've got it. Info was also in an email Roon had sent me!! What a twit I am tonight.
D
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HI Chris,
Couple of questions please:
Bryston BDP1 still uncertified? Is this still a beta ? Maybe the cause of a sudden and unexpected power down of the BDP1 while indexing the library...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145788)
Is it Roon or the BDP that won't let Roon read AFP shares (the files on my NAS)?
I had to setup Roon up using SMB shares, using the files attached to the BDP. I rather liked the idea of playing NAS files through Roon over the BDP, which is not supported :scratch: . Or is there a work around to do just so.
Playing a track doesn't show on the MM interface? Only Roon Ready Mode on the home screen?
Chris, i take it MPD is automatically disabled when Roon is enabled?
Thanks,
Marius
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HI Marius
Under Services in MM Dashboard you have to choose either MPD or Roon but not both.
james
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http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=42d2a2745d455ec99711e4df3&id=1b53621a71&e=[UNIQID]
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Comprehensive firmware update S 2.28 update loaded on original version BDP-1.
Roon Ready mode captured (uncertified). Sounds great. :D
Noticed this firmwave update was a lengthy one. Glad this could be rolled out to BDP-1 users.
Good work to all involved.
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HI Chris,
Couple of questions please:
Bryston BDP1 still uncertified? Is this still a beta ? Maybe the cause of a sudden and unexpected power down of the BDP1 while indexing the library...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145788)
Is it Roon or the BDP that won't let Roon read AFP shares (the files on my NAS)?
I had to setup Roon up using SMB shares, using the files attached to the BDP. I rather liked the idea of playing NAS files through Roon over the BDP, which is not supported :scratch: . Or is there a work around to do just so.
Playing a track doesn't show on the MM interface? Only Roon Ready Mode on the home screen?
Chris, i take it MPD is automatically disabled when Roon is enabled?
Thanks,
Marius
Give it a couple days and the BDP should show as certified. Correct, only one audio playback service can run at a time.
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Finally figured out the way to have Roon read the Nas files through SMB. Very simple :duh: :duh:
I havent yet done so though because of this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145836)
I havent authorized Roon to write on my NAS, only read, but would this warning imply it changes my files on the NAS? That would be very unwanted, since other services are configured to read those files also. My Plex installation for example (took 1,5 weeks to get it all done....)
If it only reorders files in its own Roon database all would be fine, but i certainly don't want to try without being sure before hand...
Cheers,
Marius
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Never mind my previous post, found the answer here:
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/whats-a-watched-folder-whats-an-organized-folder/119
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145838)
Cheers,
Marius
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Roon requires you to run there server software on a computer, one of average to high end spec or a high end nas.
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/what-are-the-minimum-system-hardware-requirements/103
Cheers,
Chris
Chris,
that's the hardware requirement for Roon ( with the GUI ). If you're using Roon Server you'll get away with a lot less than that. I run Roon Server on a four year old Synology NAS, and it runs fine.
regards
Ron
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Chris,
that's the hardware requirement for Roon ( with the GUI ). If you're using Roon Server you'll get away with a lot less than that. I run Roon Server on a four year old Synology NAS, and it runs fine.
regards
Ron
Check, and for anyone in need how to proceed in that topology visit Christopher Riekes excellent work http://blog.rieke.tv/roon-server-on-nas/
Marius
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Hi Chris,
Does the Roon Mode disable the Tidal Application ? My page won't load anymore. Too bad, cause i disabled Tidal in Roon, to not be so abundantly present in my own library.... Thought id play Tidal from within the MM/Bryston interface.
Cheers,
Marius
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Chris,
that's the hardware requirement for Roon ( with the GUI ). If you're using Roon Server you'll get away with a lot less than that. I run Roon Server on a four year old Synology NAS, and it runs fine.
regards
Ron
Hi Ron,
After looking at the recommended specs of Roon yesterday I figured I wouldn't be able to run it on my NAS which is only a couple years old. It has an Atom processor and only 1GB of RAM that I can see on the Settings page. Mine is also Synology, the DS415play. What are your NAS's specs and how are you running it? I didn't see any Roon related packages when looking around Package Center yesterday.
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Hi Ron,
After looking at the recommended specs of Roon yesterday I figured I wouldn't be able to run it on my NAS which is only a couple years old. It has an Atom processor and only 1GB of RAM that I can see on the Settings page. Mine is also Synology, the DS415play. What are your NAS's specs and how are you running it? I didn't see any Roon related packages when looking around Package Center yesterday.
Rod,
check http://blog.rieke.tv/roon-server-on-nas/ (http://blog.rieke.tv/roon-server-on-nas/) for the package
Cheers,
Marius
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Oh and I also do not have SSD drives. I'm using 3 WD 6TB Red NAS drives.
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Rod,
check http://blog.rieke.tv/roon-server-on-nas/ (http://blog.rieke.tv/roon-server-on-nas/) for the package
Cheers,
Marius
Ah cool, thanks :thumb:
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Ah cool, thanks :thumb:
it is indeed, and if you register you can post in the relevant forum on https://community.roonlabs.com/c/linux/qnap-synology (https://community.roonlabs.com/c/linux/qnap-synology) , Christopher responds within the minute.... :thumb:
btw u can use a Hdd usb drive, change its name to RoonServer (forget about creating a share on the external Usb drive, the Usb drive is already the share itself) and Roon Server will startup correctly
Keep in mind you have to add local folders, since they are on your NAS, and you run RoonServer from your NAS.
Cheers,
Marius
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Hi Ron,
After looking at the recommended specs of Roon yesterday I figured I wouldn't be able to run it on my NAS which is only a couple years old. It has an Atom processor and only 1GB of RAM that I can see on the Settings page. Mine is also Synology, the DS415play. What are your NAS's specs and how are you running it? I didn't see any Roon related packages when looking around Package Center yesterday.
I'm running a Synology 1512+ with 3GB of RAM.
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I'm running a Synology 1512+ with 3GB of RAM.
hmm, you have a lot more RAM than I do. Are you using HDD or SSD drives? Is the 1512+ 32bit or 64bit?
Thanks
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Wow! Great work, Chris, et al.
I will try this when I get home and may have to eat my words and re-engage with Roon (my 1 year license is valid until end of July).
I am eager to see if there is integration with the BDP-1 display panel and control buttons, but either way I am eager to hear how it stands up to MPD playback.
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Wow! Great work, Chris, et al.
I will try this when I get home and may have to eat my words and re-engage with Roon (my 1 year license is valid until end of July).
I am eager to see if there is integration with the BDP-1 display panel and control buttons, but either way I am eager to hear how it stands up to MPD playback.
transport controls and display was the hold up
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Excellent work Chris. S 2.28 works great in Roon Ready mode. Any chance Bryston users will see HQPlayer compatibility (NAA mode) in a future firmware update?
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Excellent work Chris. S 2.28 works great in Roon Ready mode. Any chance Bryston users will see HQPlayer compatibility (NAA mode) in a future firmware update?
possibly
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Awesome....thanks!
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Hi Chris,
Does the Roon Mode disable the Tidal Application ? My page won't load anymore. Too bad, cause i disabled Tidal in Roon, to not be so abundantly present in my own library.... Thought id play Tidal from within the MM/Bryston interface.
Cheers,
Marius
Tidal Web App should still be functional, it could be that the Roon Ready app isn't releasing to audio interface
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Tidal Web App should still be functional, it could be that the Roon Ready app isn't releasing to audio interface
Well, whatever the case, no music loading in the Tidal application in MM.
Maybe i have to wait for the Roon server to update, although i wouldn't know why, because my BDP stands idle right now, while the updating process is going on in the Roon interface and on the Nas (RoonServer)
Cheers,
Marius
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I'm running a Synology 1512+ with 3GB of RAM.
Same NAS here, experiencing heavy gaps/dropouts in playing. 16 and 32 bit. Maybe because the RoonServer is still updating my library.
Also, i'm on 1 gb memory and external Hdd. Tomorrow an SSD arrives, and 2gb extra memory is on order.... Maybe that will help.
Maybe i need to dive into the setup, and check for special settings.
Cheers,
Marius
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Same NAS here, experiencing heavy gaps/dropouts in playing. 16 and 32 bit. Maybe because the RoonServer is still updating my library.
Also, i'm on 1 gb memory and external Hdd. Tomorrow an SSD arrives, and 2gb extra memory is on order.... Maybe that will help.
Maybe i need to dive into the setup, and check for special settings.
Cheers,
Marius
Hi Marius
I have Roon installed on my system at work (desktop computer) and also at home (laptop) and no issues at all. :scratch:
I think the NAS is not up to the task?
james
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HI James,
I suspect that to be the case indeed. I'll wait for the indexing to finish and my SSD and extra system memory to arrive for final judgement ;)
Roon released new updates today (officially naming Bryston btw) and the Synology/Qnap support. Maybe that helps too. (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146027)
I'll check BDP system logs / memory usage also, the BDP1 might be a bit under specced ?
Cheers,
happy experimenting,
Marius
Hi Marius
I have Roon installed on my system at work (desktop computer) and also at home (laptop) and no issues at all. :scratch:
I think the NAS is not up to the task?
james
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If you have any other services running on your NAS, perhaps they are competing for resources?
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If you have any other services running on your NAS, perhaps they are competing for resources?
Next to Roon server, Plex server and Minim server are running, and Cloud Sync, but system resources seem alright:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146029)
Cheers,
Marius
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hmm, you have a lot more RAM than I do. Are you using HDD or SSD drives? Is the 1512+ 32bit or 64bit?
Thanks
The 1512+ runs a 64 bit 2.13GHz Intel Atom D2700. I run HDDs.
I have no problems with drop outs. If the Roons forums are anything to go by then lots of people have Roon Server successfully running on Synology NASs.
Is your NAS swapping? Take a look at https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DSM/ResourceMonitor/rsrcmonitor
In particular:
Memory
The overall memory usage of physical memory and swap space will be shown. Memory usage remains high because the system stores frequently accessed data in cache, so the data can be quickly obtained without accessing the hard disk. Cache memory will be released when overall memory is insufficient.
High swap space usage indicates insufficient system memory, and will also affect the system performance. You can view the rate of swap in and swap out by choosing Swap from the drop-down menu on the top.
It your NAS is swapping ( using Swap space ), then I'd say you need more physical RAM.
regards
Ron
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My NAs is constantly round 80% memory usage at the moment, it is updating RoonServer database. Roon takes about 340MB of the 1 Gb. Swapping is quite modest, so no worries there. Ive ordered the 2 Gb extra memory, hope to install those soon. Maybe that will relieve the NAS form some memory stress ;-)
For the moment, Roon is inaccessible while updating, no idea of any progress being made though.
Cheers,Marius
The 1512+ runs a 64 bit 2.13GHz Intel Atom D2700. I run HDDs.
I have no problems with drop outs. If the Roons forums are anything to go by then lots of people have Roon Server successfully running on Synology NASs.
Is your NAS swapping? Take a look at https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DSM/ResourceMonitor/rsrcmonitor (https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DSM/ResourceMonitor/rsrcmonitor)
In particular:
Memory
The overall memory usage of physical memory and swap space will be shown. Memory usage remains high because the system stores frequently accessed data in cache, so the data can be quickly obtained without accessing the hard disk. Cache memory will be released when overall memory is insufficient.
High swap space usage indicates insufficient system memory, and will also affect the system performance. You can view the rate of swap in and swap out by choosing Swap from the drop-down menu on the top.
It your NAS is swapping ( using Swap space ), then I'd say you need more physical RAM.
regards
Ron
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Give it a couple days and the BDP should show as certified. Correct, only one audio playback service can run at a time.
well, here we go, it's official!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146031)
looking kinda nice, a recognizable BDP:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146032)
Congrats Team Bryston!
Cheers,
Marius
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I suspect that to be the case indeed. I'll wait for the indexing to finish and my SSD and extra system memory to arrive for final judgement ;)
Yes... you should wait for both IMPORT and ANALYZING (see: Setup tab) to complete before troubleshooting any drop-outs. With a large collection, this will take some time.
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Yes... you should wait for both IMPORT and ANALYZING (see: Setup tab) to complete before troubleshooting any drop-outs. With a large collection, this will take some time.
Didnt notice the Analyzing before, thanks, ill check that.
My SSD just arrived, and i decided it 'd be best to start afresh, in the new version the latest Roon creates. Building the new database as we speak. Seems faster already in creating it, thought that might be expectational bias ;-)
Cheers,
Marius
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Not exactly clear on the difference between Built-in output and system output. Is there a difference on a computer between the two? :scratch:
Roon/Settings/Audio/connected to this Mac
Marius
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Not exactly clear on the difference between Built-in output and system output. Is there a difference on a computer between the two? :scratch:
Roon/Settings/Audio/connected to this Mac
Marius
Yes. Built-in on a Mac is the headphone jack or built-in speakers. System Output is whatever is configured to play back "Sound" output. See AudioMidi app for more details.
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Yes. Built-in on a Mac is the headphone jack or built-in speakers. System Output is whatever is configured to play back "Sound" output. See AudioMidi app for more details.
Ok thanks,
Most of the time I've got my Built-in output set as System output...
Just received a response from Roon support also, Vova in this same matter, worded similarly:
Built-in output - is the sound card which is built into your machine
System output - is the device which is set as a default output in your system
I guess they can be set to Private on each device, since it won't be of any use to control these from another device?
kind of nice to be able to play your 'Bryston' library on the Mac, a request i did here some time ago but never materialized. Before i used Plex to do so. Now we've got Roon todo that too, and easily switch outputs from within the same interface. That definitely is a Plus.
Cheers,
Marius
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Quick note on Roon Playback.
Things are working well; very smooth, even with 192/24 tracks over my wireless bridge into the BDP-1. No dropouts, whatsoever, with smooth gapless playback - all issues I had with the original RAAT beta.
The display: the Artists name is cropped if it contains more than one word. For example: "Steve Roach" displays as "Steve". When the track changes you can briefly see "Steve Roach" appear in the display and then "Roach" is wiped with blank chars leaving only "Steve".
Otherwise, appears to be a great port of Roon into the BDP-1. Well done, Bryston!
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HI Ken,
yes, progress was definitely made.
Is your server on a nas, or a dedicated computer?
And, are your music files attached to the BDP, or elsewhere? All aspect that seem to matter...
Cheers,
Marius
Quick note on Roon Playback.
Things are working well; very smooth, even with 192/24 tracks over my wireless bridge into the BDP-1. No dropouts, whatsoever, with smooth gapless playback - all issues I had with the original RAAT beta.
The display: the Artists name is cropped if it contains more than one word. For example: "Steve Roach" displays as "Steve". When the track changes you can briefly see "Steve Roach" appear in the display and then "Roach" is wiped with blank chars leaving only "Steve".
Otherwise, appears to be a great port of Roon into the BDP-1. Well done, Bryston!
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...
Is your server on a nas, or a dedicated computer?
And, are your music files attached to the BDP, or elsewhere? All aspect that seem to matter...
RoonServer is running on a Mac Mini (Mid 2011), running El Capitan (10.11.5) w/ 8 GB RAM and booting from an external FW800 SSD (I find this part important with Roon, which needs a fast drive for it's database, et al.).
The music files are my iTunes library on a WD MyCloud mounted via SMB, connected to the same Ethernet switch as the Mac Mini. The BDP-1 is on the end of an Airport Express as a wireless bridge.
I've setup RoonServer to "watch" the iTunes/iTunes Media/Music folder, as opposed to mounting as an "iTunes Library", which I've had challenges with in the past. I use "Playlist Export" (see Apple App Store for Mac) to export selected iTunes playlists as M3U files into a folder located within the same watched folder. RoonServer picks these up, automatically, and add them to my library.
Note: I've worked around the latest Mac OS X issues with SMB by manually disabling SMB 3 signing, which was killing performance on NAS shares (well documented on Apple's support site).
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Note: I've worked around the latest Mac OS X issues with SMB by manually disabling SMB 3 signing, which was killing performance on NAS shares (well documented on Apple's support site).
Could you please provide a link for this? I thought i never had issues, but now you mention performance on NAs shares, i remember some slower than expected file transfers ...
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im having doubts about setting Roon Server up most user friendly and powerful.
My Nas is available to all devices in the house, and therefor should be the optimal place to hold the server and at least the library. It is there already as a backup for the BDP attached drives, so thats easy. Unfortunately it isn't powerful enough to run the server software optimally, and a dedicated computer would be more appropriate. Connecting to the NAS for the library.
Or, to the Hdd's connected to the BDP. Would that cut the chain short from files to endpoint? (not sure what goes where in the path, but i suspect the music to go to RoonServer first, and then to the endpoint. So using the BDP attached drives seems a bit too complex..)
For now i feel a dedicated always on computer is a bit beyond my spending priorities, so setting it up on one of my Macbooks could be an option, with the downside of availability when closed after work ;)
a spanking new my cloud pro (https://wdcloud.plex.tv/?utm_source=Plex&utm_medium=email&utm_content=wd_cloud_button&utm_campaign=June+Newsletter+2016) could do the trick probably ;) with the added plus of finally being able to stream Plex movies without hiccups.
(hope we don't need dedicated machines for all services.....)
Choices, choices.
What are yours, fellow Ac'ers?
Cheers,
Marius
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The 1512+ runs a 64 bit 2.13GHz Intel Atom D2700. I run HDDs.
I have no problems with drop outs. If the Roons forums are anything to go by then lots of people have Roon Server successfully running on Synology NASs.
Is your NAS swapping? Take a look at https://www.synology.com/en-global/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DSM/ResourceMonitor/rsrcmonitor
In particular:
Memory
The overall memory usage of physical memory and swap space will be shown. Memory usage remains high because the system stores frequently accessed data in cache, so the data can be quickly obtained without accessing the hard disk. Cache memory will be released when overall memory is insufficient.
High swap space usage indicates insufficient system memory, and will also affect the system performance. You can view the rate of swap in and swap out by choosing Swap from the drop-down menu on the top.
It your NAS is swapping ( using Swap space ), then I'd say you need more physical RAM.
regards
Ron
Thanks, I'm at work now so can't check my NAS. My DS415play is only 32 bit and fixed a 1GB of memory, this model doesn't allow for upgrading the memory unfortunately.
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If the Roons forums are anything to go by then lots of people have Roon Server successfully running on Synology NASs.
My DS415play is only 32 bit and fixed a 1GB of memory, this model doesn't allow for upgrading the memory unfortunately.
Although there is a Windows 32-bit version, Roon Server versions for Linux, QNAP and Synology are all 64-bit, so it couldn't be installed on the DS415play even if it had more memory.
Steve
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Gotcha, thanks. This saves me a lot of time then messing around over the weekend trying things out only to find out it can't be done with my model.
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Could you please provide a link for this? I thought i never had issues, but now you mention performance on NAs shares, i remember some slower than expected file transfers ...
https://discussions.apple.com/message/30379233 (https://discussions.apple.com/message/30379233)
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I downloaded Roon and after some trial and error I got it running. The reason I had a problem is not no audio comes out of the AES connection, which I prefer, just the sub out to the dac. Is that the way it is supposed to operate?
I am using a bdp-2 with attached hard drive. Mac OSX.
Initial thought is that this is a pretty expensive way to play my tunes. But we'll give it its two month trial.
Thanks.
Craig
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No luck today, im experiencing constant loss of connection, trying to reconnect, select another library ..
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146056) (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146055)
Had the BDP self-powerdown a couple of times, lockup, or just stop responding to the various controls.
Al might be related to the NAS being to under-specced having a hard time indexing the tracks. Maybe another reason, who knows.
All in all, i am beginning to think a NAS isn't such a good solution after all , a dedicated computer might be the preferable way to Roon. Which makes it even more expensive of course ;-((
Then again, a SonicTransporter and a Micro Rendu http://microjukebox.com/collections/music-players/products/sonictransporter-microrendu-ifi-ipower-bundle are quite the cheap replacement for the BDP...
Cheers,
Marius
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I downloaded Roon and after some trial and error I got it running. The reason I had a problem is not no audio comes out of the AES connection, which I prefer, just the sub out to the dac. Is that the way it is supposed to operate?
I am using a bdp-2 with attached hard drive. Mac OSX.
Initial thought is that this is a pretty expensive way to play my tunes. But we'll give it its two month trial.
Thanks.
Craig
There is a config page that can be found from within Roon, audio device setup, configure player. This page will allow you to customize various settings. If you prefer AES why have the USB connected?
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No luck
Perhaps a networking issue, either between your controller and the server or between the BDP and the server?
Also if you look at roons website they recommend a pretty beefy NAS for the server
http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS
In the description they even state you should be prepared to spend just shy of $2k US
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Also if you look at roons website they recommend a pretty beefy NAS for the server
http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS (http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS)
In the description they even state you should be prepared to spend just shy of $2k US
Indeed, beefy. They warn you, fair enough. Not only a beefy NAS is needed, if you use a dedicated computer to run the server, it also needs the bigger specs. No words about library size either..
Makes me wonder if eg. the Sonore family is powerful enough, there's not much info about their specs on the Sonore website, other than stating is was made for pure audiophile use..
All in all we seem to be bothered by the same issues we experience on the BDP (1). More than powerful enough for playing audiophile quality music files per se, trouble starts when you need the visuals. Either way, the solution seems to be expensive upgrade(s) on each part of the chain, added to the cost of the software, which still seems very very steep.
Chris,
besides the above, which is more of a Roon issue, im experiencing intermittent BDP1 shut offs and lockups in Roon Ready Mode. Is the BDP1 not really up to it? Or should/could another setting be modified.
Maybe i need to consider the BDP2 after all ;)
On the Roon forum they also mention the Raspberry not being their favorite platform, to put it mildly. Processor, memory, sd vs ssd etc. That would also compromise the BDP-p1 then?
Cheers,
Marius
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...
Also if you look at roons website they recommend a pretty beefy NAS for the server
http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS
In the description they even state you should be prepared to spend just shy of $2k US
That's crazy. Spend 1/4 of that on a base model Mac Mini with an inexpensive, attached USB 3.0 hard drive.
I have an older Mac Mini (Mid 2011 model, Core i5 w/ 8GB RAM). When I am playing back music, RoonServer hovers between 5-15% CPU utilization, depending on CD vs. high-res tracks, consuming less than 350 MB of RAM - constant. Plenty of power to run RoonServer.
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That's crazy. Spend 1/4 of that on a base model Mac Mini with an inexpensive, attached USB 3.0 hard drive.
...
As an FYI, RoonServer is sensitive to file access delays. In other words, I've noticed that if there is any delay in loading a file, you will hear delays in playback between tracks. This was noticeable in my system when playing longish tracks that have gapless transition to the next track (think: classical movements).
If the HDD holding your music spins down (read: sleeps), you may experience gaps in playback. This was especially noticeable in my system using the WD MyCloud as the SMB host for my Roon library.
I solved this by downloading the Mac OS app: Disksomnia, form the Apple App Store, and configuring it to touch the mounted share every 30 seconds whenever Roon is running (you could also disable sleep in the WD MyCloud, but I chose the former option).
This an area where MPD excels... even loading the same tracks from the same WD MyCloud, I've never had these delay problems. I believe MPD is more polished, with respect to pre-fetching the next track.
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Quick note on Roon Playback.
...
The display: the Artists name is cropped if it contains more than one word. For example: "Steve Roach" displays as "Steve". When the track changes you can briefly see "Steve Roach" appear in the display and then "Roach" is wiped with blank chars leaving only "Steve".
An update on this issue: I am playing back tracks from "The Moody Blues" and noticing the display shows: "The M" as the artist (as in: The <space> M). Same erasing behavior, as described above; when changing tracks, I can briefly see: "The Moody Blues" and the latter chars are erased 1/2 second later.
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HI,
recognize your experience on the transition for classical tracks.
This is yet another aspect of the available services and industry not yet being ready for serious listening/clientele of classical music. Just check the home page, and be confronted with the ever present Adele and Beyonce....
Talked about this with Roon,and they are getting ready for it. They say. Their speed and action on their community is very good, so i hope they will get their software up to speed also.
Don't want to embark on yet another road of extra utilities and tweaks to be able to play my library without issues. Its getting better but nothing can match the sheer ease of throwing in a cd and enjoy.... ;)
MPD/BDP can. Without any extra investments. Being a Mac Mini or a beefy NAS server... (bought the SSD already, as i did with extra NAS-memory, but thats as far as i want to go, before ROON attends to these issues. Im sure they will, and hope they do before my 2 months trial is over ;)
Cheers,
Marius
As an FYI, RoonServer is sensitive to file access delays. In other words, I've noticed that if there is any delay in loading a file, you will hear delays in playback between tracks. This was noticeable in my system when playing longish tracks that have gapless transition to the next track (think: classical movements).
If the HDD holding your music spins down (read: sleeps), you may experience gaps in playback. This was especially noticeable in my system using the WD MyCloud as the SMB host for my Roon library.
I solved this by downloading the Mac OS app: Disksomnia, form the Apple App Store, and configuring it to touch the mounted share every 30 seconds whenever Roon is running (you could also disable sleep in the WD MyCloud, but I chose the former option).
This an area where MPD excels... even loading the same tracks from the same WD MyCloud, I've never had these delay problems. I believe MPD is more polished, with respect to pre-fetching the next track.
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Hi Marius,
I don't want to offend you but why advertise another product on the Bryston forum? The gents from bryston have been very responsive to your many questions over a long time.
I'm really happy with my Bryston BDP-1. Totally don't know how to use Roon but not bothered at this stage.
Regards Rod
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Hi Rod,
Not sure why you ask, since this thread is about the Roon Ready Mode of the BDP's? Im not advertising in anyway, only testing the Roon software, and the combo it makes with the BDP family.
Just as you, i'm very happy with my BDP-1, i think it's a great machine.
Cheers,
Marius
Hi Marius,
I don't want to offend you but why advertise another product on the Bryston forum? The gents from bryston have been very responsive to your many questions over a long time.
I'm really happy with my Bryston BDP-1. Totally don't know how to use Roon but not bothered at this stage.
Regards Rod
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Hi Marius,
It doesn't always come across that you are happy with your Bryston BDP-1 and that is why I commented.
Regards
Rod
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HI,
recognize your experience on the transition for classical tracks.
This is yet another aspect of the available services and industry not yet being ready for serious listening/clientele of classical music. Just check the home page, and be confronted with the ever present Adele and Beyonce....
Talked about this with Roon,and they are getting ready for it. They say. Their speed and action on their community is very good, so i hope they will get their software up to speed also.
Don't want to embark on yet another road of extra utilities and tweaks to be able to play my library without issues. Its getting better but nothing can match the sheer ease of throwing in a cd and enjoy.... ;)
MPD/BDP can. Without any extra investments. Being a Mac Mini or a beefy NAS server... (bought the SSD already, as i did with extra NAS-memory, but thats as far as i want to go, before ROON attends to these issues. Im sure they will, and hope they do before my 2 months trial is over ;)
Cheers,
Marius
Speaking of the simplicity of CD - listening to the final prototype of our new CD Player.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146079)
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Hi Marius,
It doesn't always come across that you are happy with your Bryston BDP-1 and that is why I commented.
Regards
Rod
If you want to see people not being happy with a product and showing it I suggest you go and have a peek at the Bluesound forum (https://helpdesk.bluesound.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2791)... An excellent example of company arrogance killing a product that could have been pretty good.
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Speaking of the simplicity of CD - listening to the final prototype of our new CD Player.
Nice open design! No problems with cooling this way!
(just keep your cat away... :) )
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Chris,
besides the above, which is more of a Roon issue, im experiencing intermittent BDP1 shut offs and lockups in Roon Ready Mode. Is the BDP1 not really up to it? Or should/could another setting be modified.
Maybe i need to consider the BDP2 after all ;)
On the Roon forum they also mention the Raspberry not being their favorite platform, to put it mildly. Processor, memory, sd vs ssd etc. That would also compromise the BDP-p1 then?
Cheers,
Marius
I ran my BDP-1 right through the weekend before sending it to Roon for certification without incident. I would think something else is amiss.
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I ran my BDP-1 right through the weekend before sending it to Roon for certification without incident. I would think something else is amiss.
Hi Chris,
Thanks, I've moved my Roon Server to a Macbook and am in the middle of rebuilding the database. Maybe it was because the NAS, while having trouble serving Roon, causing issues with the BDP1 too. Will let you know whether the move made things better.
Anyone of you know if one can point the RoonServer to a dedicated Drive (external SSD in my case)? The NAs Setup read that automatically, but now I've set ROon up on the Mac, there's no way of changing/dedicasting a path?
Cheers,
Marius
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I'm running my roon server on an older i5 laptop with 12GB ram and windows 10 pro. The laptop runs a variety of server type services for my home network and it never drops out. It may also be worth just running the headless roon server software.
I setup the music library as a network folder which refers back to my BDP (since i bounce back and forth between MPD, Roon, and other services) which probably at least doubles network traffic between the two units and I still get zero dropouts or crashes.
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Hi Marius,
I don't want to offend you but why advertise another product on the Bryston forum? The gents from bryston have been very responsive to your many questions over a long time.
I'm really happy with my Bryston BDP-1. Totally don't know how to use Roon but not bothered at this stage.
Regards Rod
I welcome hearing about all types of equipment. No offense intended. I like my Roon Ready BDP-1 a bunch.
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I'm running my roon server on an older i5 laptop with 12GB ram and windows 10 pro. The laptop runs a variety of server type services for my home network and it never drops out. It may also be worth just running the headless roon server software.
I remember reading in room knowledge base that if you minimize Roon (Windows) or close the Roon window (Mac) that roons stops rendering the graphics and essentially is in a server only mode.
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Anyone of you know if one can point the RoonServer to a dedicated Drive (external SSD in my case)? The NAs Setup read that automatically, but now I've set ROon up on the Mac, there's no way of changing/dedicasting a path?
Cheers,
Marius
I believe the solid state drive should contain both your OS and Roon installation and then once Roon is installed you point it to drives/network shares containing your local music collection.
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Just updated the firmware and the BDP-1 (S/N 00050) is working perfectly. Sounds great as well.
Ideally Roon should have an offline mode, since if the internet connection goes down........Roon might be marooned.
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I believe the solid state drive should contain both your OS and Roon installation and then once Roon is installed you point it to drives/network shares containing your local music collection.
That is the ideal setup.
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That is the ideal setup.
Installed roonserver on a MacBook Air too now, pointing to the Nas drives . Will see if that works any better.
Can control both through the Roon app on the iPhone and other devices.
Only disadvantage of course being the air not always on. If it works as optimal as is should , a dedicated device could be in the works ;-)
Cheers and thanks, Chris and Ken.
Marius
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I don't have a NAS. I have an iMac and Macbook Pros. So to install Roon, I need to first setup on one of my computers. Although, can my external hard drive containing music be connected to the BDP-1, or does it also need to be connected to the computer.
Second question, does the computer need to be ON for Roon to work?
Third question, is the ROON READY the same quality as MPD? I noticed Sharplay wasn't the same as MPD.
I updated the firmware and got a trial key, but haven't started it yet until I can figure out what I need.
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I don't have a NAS. I have an iMac and Macbook Pros. So to install Roon, I need to first setup on one of my computers. Although, can my external hard drive containing music be connected to the BDP-1, or does it also need to be connected to the computer.
Second question, does the computer need to be ON for Roon to work?
Third question, is the ROON READY the same quality as MPD? I noticed Sharplay wasn't the same as MPD.
I updated the firmware and got a trial key, but haven't started it yet until I can figure out what I need.
The music collection can be stored on a local drive, usb drive or a network share, Roon recommends you use a computer with a solid state drive that contains the operating system and the roon software itself.
Cheers,
Chris
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An update on this issue: I am playing back tracks from "The Moody Blues" and noticing the display shows: "The M" as the artist (as in: The <space> M). Same erasing behavior, as described above; when changing tracks, I can briefly see: "The Moody Blues" and the latter chars are erased 1/2 second later.
This seems to be fixed in Roon 1.2 build 147 (just released 3 days ago?). Now, all titles and artists display correctly in the BDP-1's display.
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I don't have a NAS. I have an iMac and Macbook Pros. So to install Roon, I need to first setup on one of my computers. Although, can my external hard drive containing music be connected to the BDP-1, or does it also need to be connected to the computer.
As long as its found on the local network, you're fine. Connected to the BDP, on a NAs, or another network drive, Roon will find them. Remember a 'local folder' in Roon is a folder on the computer Roon is installed on, all other folders are Network folders.
Second question, does the computer need to be ON for Roon to work?
Yes
Third question, is the ROON READY the same quality as MPD? I noticed Sharplay wasn't the same as MPD.
we're here to find that out... please let us know your findings. Now that I've installed on my Macbook air (started on a NAS) i havent experienced the dropouts and other related issues, Roon sounds quite good. Even on a so called Roon bridge, I've installed on a dated 8 years old windows pc i managed to install windows 10 on.
Havent done serious comparing MPD to ROON ready yet on the BDP1. Up next!
I updated the firmware and got a trial key, but haven't started it yet until I can figure out what I need.
Cheers,
Marius
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Roon requires you to run there server software on a computer, one of average to high end spec or a high end nas.
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/what-are-the-minimum-system-hardware-requirements/103
Cheers,
Chris
Can the ROON server software run on a computer (e.g. laptop) and the music reside on a USB stick connected to the BDP-2 or on an internal SSD inside the BDP-2?
Or does the music have to be on the same computer that runs the ROON server software?
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Can the ROON server software run on a computer (e.g. laptop) and the music reside on a USB stick connected to the BDP-2 or on an internal SSD inside the BDP-2?
Or does the music have to be on the same computer that runs the ROON server software?
Hi
The music can be anywhere on the network. So internal drive or external attached to the BDP can be played from Roon.
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So, I've updated my BDP-2 with the new firmware and installed Roon on my computer (Windows 10 64 bit). I've pointed it to the two main drives hanging off the BDP-2 and I'm using the Roon remote for my IPhone 6.
Roon is very cool, love the interface, artist information, etc.
The main issue I'm having is that high resolution files (24/96 or better) play, after 20 seconds or so I get a message from Roon that the file is "loading slowly" and it ends play. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Bob
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So, I've updated my BDP-2 with the new firmware and installed Roon on my computer (Windows 10 64 bit). I've pointed it to the two main drives hanging off the BDP-2 and I'm using the Roon remote for my IPhone 6.
Roon is very cool, love the interface, artist information, etc.
The main issue I'm having is that high resolution files (24/96 or better) play, after 20 seconds or so I get a message from Roon that the file is "loading slowly" and it ends play. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Bob
Hi Bob
It sounds like the host computer where you have Roon is not 'fast' enough for the high res files.
james
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Should be. Bought it less than six months ago, has 16GB ram and a fast AMD processor. I notice that Roon is "analyzing" my tracks (I have about 20,000 and Roon has only processed about 600 so far) so I'm hoping the issue will resolve itself after it completes.
The other possibility is that the network is slow?
Roon is pretty awesome improvement over MPD though--I love being able to learn about the artists. It's like having liner notes again.
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Should be. Bought it less than six months ago, has 16GB ram and a fast AMD processor. I notice that Roon is "analyzing" my tracks (I have about 20,000 and Roon has only processed about 600 so far) so I'm hoping the issue will resolve itself after it completes.
The other possibility is that the network is slow?
Roon is pretty awesome improvement over MPD though--I love being able to learn about the artists. It's like having liner notes again.
Yes sounds like your computer is fine. I have played 192/24 files and DSD with no issues on a 3 year old Toshiba laptop so you should be fine.
james
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Should be. Bought it less than six months ago, has 16GB ram and a fast AMD processor. I notice that Roon is "analyzing" my tracks (I have about 20,000 and Roon has only processed about 600 so far) so I'm hoping the issue will resolve itself after it completes.
The other possibility is that the network is slow?
Roon is pretty awesome improvement over MPD though--I love being able to learn about the artists. It's like having liner notes again.
AMD makes all kind of processors, some that compete perfectly fine with intels core series CPUs and some that are much slow then intels core series. Also CPU and ram arn't roons only requirement, they also recommend the computers OS and Roon be installed on a solid state drive. Finally you may wish to move those USB drives attached to the BDP to your computer so that there is less back and forth on your network.
Cheers
Chris
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HI,
After reading many posts on the fora and community, about performance issues, im beginning to have serious doubts about Roons statement that 'playing the music files is the easy part'. If one doesn't fully comply with Chris's advice below, performance issues, dropouts and are rather prone to happen. Also, having an extensive library (check Roons guide, large library definition is met quite soon) doesn't help.
On my SSD Macbook Air, Roon has taken a full day to analyse 1334 tracks. Tracks. Not albums....
I really don't hope Roon needs its own dedicated computer, with its own library attached on SSD to fully function properly.
MY BDP (1!) is functioning without any of these hiccups, dropouts or other performance issues, albeit barebones compared to the visual impact Roon makes. Attached or networked. Im not ditching it yet...
Cheers,
Marius
AMD makes all kind of processors, some that compete perfectly fine with intels core series CPUs and some that are much slow then intels core series. Also CPU and ram arn't roons only requirement, they also recommend the computers OS and Roon be installed on a solid state drive. Finally you may wish to move those USB drives attached to the BDP to your computer so that there is less back and forth on your network.
Cheers
Chris
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HI,
After reading many posts on the fora and community, about performance issues, im beginning to have serious doubts about Roons statement that 'playing the music files is the easy part'. If one doesn't fully comply with Chris's advice below, performance issues, dropouts and are rather prone to happen. Also, having an extensive library (check Roons guide, large library definition is met quite soon) doesn't help.
On my SSD Macbook Air, Roon has taken a full day to analyse 1334 tracks. Tracks. Not albums....
I really don't hope Roon needs its own dedicated computer, with its own library attached on SSD to fully function properly.
MY BDP (1!) is functioning without any of these hiccups, dropouts or other performance issues, albeit barebones compared to the visual impact Roon makes. Attached or networked. Im not ditching it yet...
Cheers,
Marius
Marius,
You don't need a beefy machine to run Roon properly.
I have over 90,000 tracks across 2300 artists and Roon certainly didn't take anywhere close to a day to analyze the content. It works well with no performance issues. I access it via iPad or Windows laptop.
My PC that runs Roon Core is a 5 yr old i7 with an SSD - hardly a powerhouse by today's standards.
George
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Cheers,
Marius
Thanks for the help Marius. I have gone and re-read up the entire Roon website. I will do extensive testing between ROON READY and MPD with different formats (FLAC/WAV). Back in mid 2015, I did try Roon against Audirvana Plus (2.0.9 at that time) outputting to the same DAC and Audirvana was better. I know they have improved on this, but I'll still keep an eye on it.
I like all the control features. The only thing I dislike is to have to rely on a computer to run the Core. Although, I wonder if the BDP-1/2 could run the Core and avoid the computer all together, would we still want to? If the power and CPU requirements are extensive, there might be a dip in performance (especially more concerned about the BDP-1 here).
With just Roon Ready, one could disable MPD and USB Mount. Nothing connected to BDP-1 or other services, just Roon...The only thing I worry about is network speed.
Just to clarify:
If I connect a hard drive to the BDP-1, the files will go back to the computer running the Core via network and then back out to BDP-1 via Roon Ready?
On the other hand, if I connect the hard drive to the computer running the Core, then the output will be straight to the BDP-1 via Roon Ready? So this can perhaps help free up the network by only having it one-way?
So is it at all possible for Roon to access the files on hard drive connected to the BDP-1 and just send it straight to BDP-1 via USB, rather than having it go over the network to the computer and then back again to the BDP-1?
I hope that made sense. Just want to be clear on how it fully works before starting my trial. Otherwise I might save it for a few months down the road.
BTW Does the 60 day promo code have an expiration date?
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HI George,
Thanks, that sounds very comfy indeed.
Are your music files on the same SSD, attached on a drive, or networked? Or attached to the BDP?
Streaming to the BDP or another endpoint?
Roon runs very fluidly, and it reacts very well to the commands, only the Background Audio Analysis takes forever.
Cheers,
Marius
Marius,
You don't need a beefy machine to run Roon properly.
I have over 90,000 tracks across 2300 artists and Roon certainly didn't take anywhere close to a day to analyze the content. It works well with no performance issues. I access it via iPad or Windows laptop.
My PC that runs Roon Core is a 5 yr old i7 with an SSD - hardly a powerhouse by today's standards.
George
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HI George,
Thanks, that sounds very comfy indeed.
Are your music files on the same SSD, attached on a drive, or networked? Or attached to the BDP?
Streaming to the BDP or another endpoint?
Roon runs very fluidly, and it reacts very well to the commands, only the Background Audio Analysis takes forever.
Cheers,
Marius
Marius,
I use a Synology NAS with 32TB of storage for storing all of my music, movies, and photos.
I no longer have a BDP.
I stream to a Vinnie Rossi LIO via a Sonore microRendu.
Feel free to search here on AC for both products.
George
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Thanks for the help Marius. I have gone and re-read up the entire Roon website. I will do extensive testing between ROON READY and MPD with different formats (FLAC/WAV). Back in mid 2015, I did try Roon against Audirvana Plus (2.0.9 at that time) outputting to the same DAC and Audirvana was better. I know they have improved on this, but I'll still keep an eye on it.
I like all the control features. The only thing I dislike is to have to rely on a computer to run the Core. Although, I wonder if the BDP-1/2 could run the Core and avoid the computer all together, would we still want to? If the power and CPU requirements are extensive, there might be a dip in performance (especially more concerned about the BDP-1 here).
With just Roon Ready, one could disable MPD and USB Mount. Nothing connected to BDP-1 or other services, just Roon...The only thing I worry about is network speed.
Just to clarify:
If I connect a hard drive to the BDP-1, the files will go back to the computer running the Core via network and then back out to BDP-1 via Roon Ready?
On the other hand, if I connect the hard drive to the computer running the Core, then the output will be straight to the BDP-1 via Roon Ready? So this can perhaps help free up the network by only having it one-way?
So is it at all possible for Roon to access the files on hard drive connected to the BDP-1 and just send it straight to BDP-1 via USB, rather than having it go over the network to the computer and then back again to the BDP-1?
I hope that made sense. Just want to be clear on how it fully works before starting my trial. Otherwise I might save it for a few months down the road.
BTW Does the 60 day promo code have an expiration date?
One of roon cores jobs is to process the file into pcm data, down sample if needed and if needed to convert dsd to pcm.
Cheers,
Chris
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...
Just to clarify:
If I connect a hard drive to the BDP-1, the files will go back to the computer running the Core via network and then back out to BDP-1 via Roon Ready?
...
Correct. And, NO, you don't want that setup. You shouldn't be using the BDP as a NAS server to Roon (Core or Server) running on another machine to process your files and then send raw PCM back to the BDP for playback. It effectively doubles the network load and will degrade "analysis" performance.
Directly attach your USB drives to the Roon computer (preferably running RoonServer) or point Roon to a dedicated NAS box (e.g. Synology or WD MyCloud, which is what I use).
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Thanks for the help guys!
Krutsch have you yet compared MPD vs Roon Ready in terms of sound quality, or is there no difference?
Also, I noticed in the other thread you mentioned that you had difficulties with the queuing of tracks and skipping on Roon with double taps and such, whereas its much easier on MPD. Is this problem associated with desktop or iOS apps for Roon?
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Hi all,
I'm running Roon on a 2011 Mac Mini w/Intel 5, 8 gb RAM and normal HDD. I have around 30,000 tracks from a variety of drives, from BDP2's internal HDD, USB drive connected to the Mini and a QNAP NAS.
Had Roon up and running with minimal fuss and little to no issues (Roon crashed once and never again). Though I did cancel out Roon's song analysis features as Roon's CPU usage was averaging over 40% and the computer's fan noise was a problem. With no song analysis, CPU usage is down to 11% and Mini is silent.
Initial impressions of Roon running through my BDP is very positive and appears to be substantially more "alive" sounding than MPD...which is surprising as the reason I jumped into the BDP2 was because it sounded much better in my system than Audirvana, Amarra, JRiver, etc.
The only performance hiccup so far with Roon was running it through my Apple TV 4 (dropouts) which is connected to the same network switch as the Mini and BDP2 with shielded Cat6 cables. But the BDP/Roon performance has been flawless.
It's worth noting that Roon sounds much better via my BDP2 than it does through the Mac Mini, connected to the same DAC.
Thanks,
DJ
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Krutsch have you yet compared MPD vs Roon Ready in terms of sound quality, or is there no difference?
I am still working on that comparison. I am going to dedicate my listening for a week, using Roon and familiar albums, then switch back to MPD and jot down my initial impressions (this is how I A/B new components).
Also, I noticed in the other thread you mentioned that you had difficulties with the queuing of tracks and skipping on Roon with double taps and such, whereas its much easier on MPD. Is this problem associated with desktop or iOS apps for Roon?
Roon's user interface is almost identical between the desktop apps and iOS (I have an iPad Mini). Everything works as designed, so I wasn't commenting about "problems", per se, but Roon's queue model isn't what I prefer. Your experience may be different, depending on how you listen to music.
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HI Chris,
Needed to copy some files to the hdd's attached to the BDP, but the BDP keeps being thrown out in Finder. Disabling Roon Mode makes it available again for file management in Finder.
Is this expected behavior or a bug? SMB and USB mount are enabled in settings, so i thought file management might still be possible.
Enabling MPD again, for updating the database gives:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146250)
Please have a look at debugging this? Transitioning between the various services and back again isn't as robust as is should be yet.
Cheers,
Marius
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I was all ready to go last night, but it needs at least 10.8 to run. I wanted to run it on my Late 2009 iMac rather than my Macbook Pros. Unfortunately, I recently downgraded my iMac back down to 10.6.8 as it was running slow on the past 3-4 OS generations. I'm guessing there's no getting around it?
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I've been playing the BDP through Roon all weekend and it has been great.
Now, I have my entire digital collection consolidated in an easy on the eyes interface. The UI for the BDP always worked just fine, but it just wasn't inviting enough to draw me in. Good sound, but no interaction with my collection. Now, I've got great organization and lots of interesting supplemental information that makes it fun. I had also tried to manage my collection through JRiver and it didn't do it for me either, but these first few days with Roon have reminded me what good UI development can do. That said, I think JRiver offers lots more control (and it's a bit of a different product than Roon), but Roon works really well for me.
Then, I added Tidal and it got really good!! At first, I just tried the "premium" subscription on a trial basis and found it almost unlistenable (just about mp3 quality to my ears). Then, I found out about the "hifi" subscription and gave it a whirl (it costs twice as much), and it's quite listenable. Still not quite good CD/SACD/HiRez/Vinyl quality, but quite listenable. Given its integration with Roon and the vast vast selection available, it's just awesome - all played through the BDP!
Now, I've just got to find a Roon Ready player for my daughter's bedroom (audiophile quality not required - she's happy feeding a bluetooth speaker from target through her phone). When she gets all of this content though via the roon interface, she'll be nuts for it.
Congrats to James and Bryston. Very well done combination of quality sound, user interface, and content.
Weirdcuba
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Adding Internet Radio Stations to Roon.
As many of you might have noticed, you can add internet radio stations to Roon. One of my favorites is RadioParadise and what I discovered is that RP has several AAC streaming links at various resolutions. The one you want is listed below, streaming at 320k. This is for the US link.
320k AAC (US): http://stream-dc1.radioparadise.com/aac-320
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Adding Internet Radio Stations to Roon.
As many of you might have noticed, you can add internet radio stations to Roon. One of my favorites is RadioParadise and what I discovered is that RP has several AAC streaming links at various resolutions. The one you want is listed below, streaming at 320k. This is for the US link.
320k AAC (US): http://stream-dc1.radioparadise.com/aac-320
Great thanks - :thumb:
Maybe we should start a thread with our favs?
james
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Hi Chris,
Since MPD is disabled during Roon Ready
Mode, wouldn't it be nice if the
Command button Launch Media Player weren't displayed, and MPD 'stopped' be changed in to something like MPD 'unavailable'?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146328)
Cheers ,
Marius
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I'm playing with Roon. Haven't had a chance to return to quality listening to see if there's an audible difference yet.
I was already running a home server. I have a i3 4130 CPU (2 cores, 4 threads) with 8GB or RAM, and an "old" Samsung 840 Pro SSD running Windows 10 Pro (along with 12 TB of storage). I access it all from my main PC (the server hangs out in the garage) and everything is CAT6 wired network. I haven't had a single glitch, hickup, or delay. Room populated my very modest library (5k tracks) very quick without side effects. I'm controlling via a Galaxy S7 Edge and Galaxy Tab Pro. I also have a Tidal subscription.
I love Roon's interface. It's beautiful and relatively easy to pick up (Sonos still wins though).
I'm being lazy, I know, and I'll post in the Roon forums if I don't get a quick response here. I love to use Pandora's "similar artists" feature to find new/other music I enjoy. I'm hoping to do the same thing with Tidal via Roon. So far, Roon just picks up other artists in my personal library. Is there some way to have Roon use Tidal's library and pluck out songs for me? For example, if I want to listen to Diana Krall, I'd like to get Roon to use Tidal to come up with other artists with a similar sound, like Melody Gardot (in this example).
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I'm being lazy, I know, and I'll post in the Roon forums if I don't get a quick response here. I love to use Pandora's "similar artists" feature to find new/other music I enjoy. I'm hoping to do the same thing with Tidal via Roon. So far, Roon just picks up other artists in my personal library. Is there some way to have Roon use Tidal's library and pluck out songs for me? For example, if I want to listen to Diana Krall, I'd like to get Roon to use Tidal to come up with other artists with a similar sound, like Melody Gardot (in this example).
hi Grit,
You mean like this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146366)
Roon delivers this searching for Diana Krall. It first shows whats in your own library, and scrolling down, this is what im presented with.
Cheers,
Marius
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deleted
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For example, if I want to listen to Diana Krall, I'd like to get Roon to use Tidal to come up with other artists with a similar sound, like Melody Gardot (in this example).
More like Shirley Horn, than Gardot. Bit like comparing Shiraz with champagne. :green:
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More like Shirley Horn, than Gardot. Bit like comparing Shiraz with champagne. :green:
Don't blame the messenger ...;-)
Anyone else without Bot functionality while in Roon Mode ?
My Bdp says Cd ready, sees it on the front panel but won't play.
Marius
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Don't blame the messenger ...;-)
Anyone else without Bot functionality while in Roon Mode ?
My Bdp says Cd ready, sees it on the front panel but won't play.
Marius
Primary method of cd playback relies on mpd
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Primary method of cd playback relies on mpd
:duh: should have thought of that. Thanks Chris. Playback only? Or also Ripping.
Maybe another place in MM (referring to MPD functionality) to change while in Roon Ready Mode?
Btw. today i fired up my BDP without internet connection. Cd-player (Cd-Backup) didn't notice, and kept trying to read the cd, which it obviously couldn't find on the net. Could you grey-out this option in Roon-mode? Also, might it be a thing to consider implementing an off-line option? One should be able to play a cd, without internet. Would be nice for the mancave listeners...
Mutually excluding services go deep now you've made it an optional Roon endpoint. Optimally they would be greyed out/disabled, instead of simply not work, or infinitely display Loading.....
[size=78%]Cheers,[/size]
Marius
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I was already running a home server. I have a i3 4130 CPU (2 cores, 4 threads) with 8GB or RAM, and an "old" Samsung 840 Pro SSD running Windows 10 Pro (along with 12 TB of storage). I access it all from my main PC (the server hangs out in the garage) and everything is CAT6 wired network. I haven't had a single glitch, hickup, or delay. Room populated my very modest library (5k tracks) very quick without side effects. I'm controlling via a Galaxy S7 Edge and Galaxy Tab Pro. I also have a Tidal subscription.
I love Roon's interface. It's beautiful and relatively easy to pick up (Sonos still wins though).
Hi Grit,
Great to read you're enjoying nothing but positive experience with Roon. Gives hope...
On this side, the background indexing is impossible to finish. Ive disabled it for now. Adding to that, each and everytime i startup Roon, it scans the folders from scratch. Which is a bit of a silly way to check whether the DB has changed. Also, after that has finished, background indexing starts all over. It doesn't take off where it left itself after hours of work (and reaching only percentages of the library ;-(( )
MPD on the Bryston BDP takes only a few minutes to scan the whole database, Roon takes very very long to do so. And it shouldn't of course, only check for additions would be adequate....
Cant imagine what would cause this in my setup, other than Roon-programming. My hardware is not of latest, but should be adequate .
For testing sake I've added a local HDD with Mp3s, which are scanned much faster. Adding seems faster too. Then again, they're MP3's while the rest of my library are flac's (often in hires 24b).
Might the network be the culprit after all? Krutsch mentioned the SMB Apple OS issue, but i havent found a positive problem definition, nor resolution yet. How to determine whether this is at hand is not that straight forward.
Cheers,
Marius
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On this side, the background indexing is impossible to finish. Ive disabled it for now. Adding to that, each and everytime i startup Roon, it scans the folders from scratch. Which is a bit of a silly way to check whether the DB has changed. Also, after that has finished, background indexing starts all over. It doesn't take off where it left itself after hours of work (and reaching only percentages of the library ;-(( )
MPD on the Bryston BDP takes only a few minutes to scan the whole database, Roon takes very very long to do so. And it shouldn't of course, only check for additions would be adequate....
You have to let Roon finish indexing and analyzing your library. Unlike MPD, which only reads embedded metadata, Roon builds a sonic signature of your music files to uniquely identify the content, regardless of how they are named or what's in the metadata (i.e. tags), if anything.
I think you were the one that mentioned you haven't really tagged your files; Roon is perfect for you, because it doesn't rely entirely on tags to index your music. Subsequent indexing/analysis is very fast, in my experience, once it's completed the initial scan.
Trust me... let it finish indexing and analyzing before you grade the overall experience.
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Is there another device out there from other manufacturers that runs the Core on the same device? I really wish the Bryston could run it.
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Is there another device out there from other manufacturers that runs the Core on the same device? I really wish the Bryston could run it.
You can learn more here: https://community.roonlabs.com/c/audio-products (https://community.roonlabs.com/c/audio-products)
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You have to let Roon finish indexing and analyzing your library. Unlike MPD, which only reads embedded metadata, Roon builds a sonic signature of your music files to uniquely identify the content, regardless of how they are named or what's in the metadata (i.e. tags), if anything.
I think you were the one that mentioned you haven't really tagged your files; Roon is perfect for you, because it doesn't rely entirely on tags to index your music. Subsequent indexing/analysis is very fast, in my experience, once it's completed the initial scan.
Trust me... let it finish indexing and analyzing before you grade the overall experience.
HI Ken,
That sounds quite mystifying.... not sure why they would do that, and, for example, how it would distinguish various versions of the same song. I have rather different sounding versions of lets say live opera;s. If Roon where to analyse how they sounds (compare a live mono recording in the 1930/40's to a high res 2015 recording of the same Tristan), they would well come up with different names ;) listen to Neil Young on 10+ versions of the same song, and the only way to know they are the same song, is by reading the name and artist ...
btw, Roon says its analyzing i the background for crossfade, volume normalization and waveform displays. All things i don't care for (yet). Still, it takes such a long time if i enable it, something must be wrong. Or my Macbook air (1,7 ghz, I7, 8 gig mem) is just not up to it.
Importing the tracks went fine, so i guess im good now.
Thanks anyways, very helpful as always Ken, appreciated a lot!
Cheers,
Marius
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You can learn more here: https://community.roonlabs.com/c/audio-products (https://community.roonlabs.com/c/audio-products)
Thanks.
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Finally gave in and decided to use the Roon code for the BDP-1. Got it all setup. I have 10,000+ tracks all in WAV and my Mid 2012 Macbook Pro w/SSD, 8GB Ram, and 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7 got it all setup and library scanned in under 5-10 minutes. I have the tracks on an external portable 2 TB hard drive.
On the BDP-1, I disabled everything manually except RoonReady. There is no problem streaming 16 bit WAV files so far. Will see how that changes with 24/96 and above.
AESTHETICALLY, Roon looks great and I did notice the thing Krutsch was talking about regarding the extra clicks to play an album or track FWIW. With large libraries, its almost like having your own lossless Spotify app.
The main thing: SOUND QUALITY. I've only had it playing for 30 mins so far, but the sound definitely differs from MPD. It was quite immediate as I was playing the same album and tracks a few minutes ago on MPD.
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...
The main thing: SOUND QUALITY. I've only had it playing for 30 mins so far, but the sound definitely differs from MPD. It was quite immediate as I was playing the same album and tracks a few minutes ago on MPD.
In which direction? Better or worse than MPD?
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In which direction? Better or worse than MPD?
Better. Between the HD 800 and Amphion's imaging capabilities, it's very easily noticeable. No guessing required. It's more relaxing on the brain for sure. More dynamic, treble and mids definitely sounds cleaner. The entire top end (2k+) opened up. Very capable blackground. If anything, I was expecting MPD to be better, but this is something else. Beautifully unexpected.
Also, I downloaded both "Roon" and "Roon Server" on my Macbook Pro. Currently using Roon to run everything through BDP-1. Roon Server opens a little icon at the top bar where battery and time icons are. I have no idea what it does, or will it let the Bryston control anything? Manic Moose as of right now does nothing for controlling the sound beside changing preferences. So is the Bryston now supposed to just clean up music before sending it to the DAC?
I'm a bit confused about your previous statement on the last page:
"Directly attach your USB drives to the Roon computer (preferably running RoonServer) or point Roon to a dedicated NAS box (e.g. Synology or WD MyCloud, which is what I use).".....WHY?
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other than the occasional dropout and not always so gapless transitions, i must admit to really like the speed of search results in Roon. Not being able to browse by folder might be solved by a very immediate response to a search, which is in fact even faster :thumb:
Sonically,the sound seems to be more direct, somehow less three dimensionally sculpted than MPD. Ive test driven 2 of my bring-always recordings and both seem to give the same impression. Very good, but ... Will have to do further testing and comparing.
Also, very handy, is the volume slider. In my balanced setup, the BDA and the BDP tend to have a lot of gain (maybe even too much) , compared to unbalanced sources. Having this slider available might be a valid alternative to switching to unbalanced cabling, in the various variations I've tested lately. Even better since it provides more fluctuation than + or _ 6 db.
James, technically, would you be able to describe he difference between the 2 (digital slider vs 6db unbalanced/balanced), and maybe even advice on your preference, and why?
Cheers,
Marius
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...
I'm a bit confused about your previous statement on the last page:
"Directly attach your USB drives to the Roon computer (preferably running RoonServer) or point Roon to a dedicated NAS box (e.g. Synology or WD MyCloud, which is what I use).".....WHY?
RoonServer is Roon without the user interface/control graphics engine on the same machine. You use your tablet, et al., to control playback, not the machine's screen/keyboard that is running Roon. It's to allow lesser hardware configurations to run well, since it's focused only on library management and serving audio to the endpoints (e.g. BDP-1/2).
No reason not to run everything on your MacBook, if that's working for you. Should make no difference in sound.
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Never mind. I partially figured it out. The Play, Pause, Forward, Rewind still work on the BDP-1 panel. Had to restart the device and its working.
I can definitely see why Marius finds MPD more 3D and holographic. On the other hand, everything feels like its placed naturally on Roon. MPD in comparison is like Audirvana Plus 1.5.10...more rounded and bigger, but somehow still less realistic.
Will have to let it play for a few days to see if the honeymoon phase wears off. I will say one last thing, regardless of the sound presentation differences, from a FUN and ENJOYMENT standpoint, I'm liking the sound a lot more now. Haven't head this much fun as a total package since the CD days.
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RoonServer is Roon without the user interface/control graphics engine on the same machine. You use your tablet, et al., to control playback, not the machine's screen/keyboard that is running Roon. It's to allow lesser hardware configurations to run well, since it's focused only on library management and serving audio to the endpoints (e.g. BDP-1/2).
No reason not to run everything on your MacBook, if that's working for you. Should make no difference in sound.
Thanks, Krutsch. Will revisit this in the future as required. :thumb:
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Congrats to Bryston and well done!!! Over the weekend I installed Roon on my laptop and upgraded the firmware of my BDP-2 and I was up and running with Roon in a short time. As many commented already, the interface of Roon is really nice. I rediscovered my music. I did notice that the sound quality of MPD was better while playing files from an external disk connected to the BDP-2 via USB. My BDP-2 is connected to my home network via cat5 cable and my laptop via wireless. So I decided to also connect my laptop with a cat5 cable. It certainly improved the sound quality of Roon. I can say it is almost as good as MPD, a bit more laid back in fact.
So I then decided to run Roon on my Synology NAS device (DS1515+) and get rid of the laptop. I installed Roon core on the NAS which was fairly easy to do, and Roon remote on my iPhone. I copied over music files to the NAS and configured Roon on the NAS to read files locally, pointed the audio zone to BDP-2 and I was streaming music from my NAS in no time. It's a great setup, I am very happy with it, again congrats Bryston....
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In which direction? Better or worse than MPD?
Coin flip. Both are excellent (MPD/Roon Ready).
HQPlayer (NAA) with Roon adds a dimension (microRendu) with the added filter options and upsampling. I am listening to Sonore microRendu in NAA mode (Roon/HQPlayer) and my Bryston BDP-1 (in Roon Ready) about 50/50. Both are very clean, and the Roon interface is great to navigate in.
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Roon Server opens a little icon at the top bar where battery and time icons are. I have no idea what it does, or will it let the Bryston control anything?
Nothing showing here, could you post a screenshot of that? Found nothing in the settings to make that available either :scratch:
Thanks,
Marius
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hi Grit,
You mean like this?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146366)
Roon delivers this searching for Diana Krall. It first shows whats in your own library, and scrolling down, this is what im presented with.
Cheers,
Marius
What I want is for Roon to pull random songs from everything it thinks sounds like the artist in question, but not from only my library, but from Tidal also.
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What I want is for Roon to pull random songs from everything it thinks sounds like the artist in question, but not from only my library, but from Tidal also.
Well, this is. Marian mcpartland, Elaine Elias, Jeffery smith, etc etc. not in my library..;-)
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Nothing showing here, could you post a screenshot of that? Found nothing in the settings to make that available either :scratch:
Thanks,
Marius
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146435)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146436)
Regardless of whether Roon is running or not, when I try to open Roon Server, only this icon opens. No application opens for Roon Server, so I have no idea how that is supposed to look.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146435)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146436)
Regardless of whether Roon is running or not, when I try to open Roon Server, only this icon opens. No application opens for Roon Server, so I have no idea how that is supposed to look.
:scratch:
no showing here, found no mention of it on the Roon Community.
Sorry, can't help you.
Marius
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146435)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146436)
Regardless of whether Roon is running or not, when I try to open Roon Server, only this icon opens. No application opens for Roon Server, so I have no idea how that is supposed to look.
Roon community just explained to me the icon only is with Roon Server without GUI. If you want a GUI, you need to download the other package on https://roonlabs.com/downloads.html .
Cheers,
marius
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Roon community just explained to me the icon only is with Roon Server without GUI. If you want a GUI, you need to download the other package on https://roonlabs.com/downloads.html .
Cheers,
marius
Thanks Marius. I'll take a look at it. Right now, just using Roon flawlessly.
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HI Chris,
Does Roon Ready Mode disable file transfers to the attached HDD's?
I had to disable Roon Mode to be able to write some albums to the HDD's. Does this have to do with MDP too, or only the USB mount and Samba services (which were enabled throughout)
Please also check: Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143966.msg1540264#msg1540264)
Cheers,
Marius
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HI Chris,
Does Roon Ready Mode disable file transfers to the attached HDD's?
I had to disable Roon Mode to be able to write some albums to the HDD's. Does this have to do with MDP too, or only the USB mount and Samba services (which were enabled throughout)
Please also check: Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=143966.msg1540264#msg1540264)
Cheers,
Marius
It does not
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Well, this is. Marian mcpartland, Elaine Elias, Jeffery smith, etc etc. not in my library..;-)
I get all the artist suggestions.
I'm trying to use the "radio" feature. In Pandora, I can use the "similar artists" and get a never ending playlist of artists that sound similar to the one artist I started off with.
Unfortunately, Roon is ONLY pulling songs from my library. Nothing from Tidal's vast library.
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It does not
Well, it does here. Roon Ready Mode enabled, no file transfer possible. Disable Roon, files fly.
Maybe the BDP1 pushed over its capabilities.
Cheers
Marius
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Quote from: unincognito on Yesterday at 21:58:09
"It does not"
Well, it does here. Roon Ready Mode enabled, no file transfer possible. Disable Roon, files fly.
Maybe the BDP1 pushed over its capabilities.
Cheers
Marius
Then get a BDP-2.
Prosit
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Files transferring between hard drives attached to my BDP-1 in Roon Ready mode and to a Macbook Pro working well here.
d
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...
Directly attach your USB drives to the Roon computer (preferably running RoonServer) or point Roon to a dedicated NAS box (e.g. Synology or WD MyCloud, which is what I use).
I have been listening my collection of about a dozen albums I use to compare new gear. Most recently to Steve Roach's "The Magnificent Void" and that album is a gapless playback torture test; even the slightest tick/delay in track transition really stands-out. With MPD playback of these AIFF tracks on my NAS share (WD MyCloud), gapless playback is 100% smooth.
With Roon: I am hearing subtle delays in gapless playback; adding Disksomnia to keep my WD MyCloud running helped and it’s OK, but not MPD perfect.
So, I am moving the Roon library to direct-attached storage on the Mac Mini, currently re-scanning/analyzing and will try my test albums again to see if Roon can smooth-out gapless playback with faster storage.
Meanwhile, it's been a week since I've listened to MPD playback, so while I wait... With Steve Roach, the music seems to have more "weight" to it and sounds just buttery smooth, clear and with a lot of texture. I suppose it's all expectation bias, but with my experience, so far, I anticipate returning to MPD for most critical listening. We'll see after the library update and re-try.
Playback chain: Sennheiser HD-650, HD-700, Woo Audio WA3 (tubes: West. Elec. 421a + Telefunken E188CC), Bel Canto DAC 2.5 with Audioquest Carbon AES cable from BDP-1 to DAC.
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Meanwhile, it's been a week since I've listened to MPD playback, so while I wait... With Steve Roach, the music seems to have more "weight" to it and sounds just buttery smooth, clear and with a lot of texture. I suppose it's all expectation bias, but with my experience, so far, I anticipate returning to MPD for most critical listening. We'll see after the library update and re-try.
So... Basically... In your experience Roons sound quality is less than MPDs?
There are several fora where users have come to this conclusion as well. And not only compared to MPD.
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So... Basically... In your experience Roons sound quality is less than MPDs?
There are several fora where users have come to this conclusion as well. And not only compared to MPD.
:violin: :eyebrows:
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Quote from: unincognito on Yesterday at 21:58:09
"It does not"
Then get a BDP-2.
Prosit
I would love to, but am not convinced the BDP-2 solves problems caused by used techniques on Roons side..
For example, i have an semi optimal machine (dixit Roon KB) running Roon server right now (Macbook Air Core i7 intel, 8gb mem, 500gb ssd) indexing an attached usb with mp3's. Adding to the library was done quite swift, as is was when the NAS installation added NAS drives/folders), but analyzing takes forever. Roon takes about 85 % of the processor, which is silly of course, even for a dedicated device of this proportions.
So, seems not to be the BDP, but specific Roon programming causing described problems. Trying to sort those out right now. The fact that several users are not reporting issues, or even more, reporting to have no issues, doesn't mean there aren't any...
There are many post on the fora/community on various technical issues Roon needs to sort before it will be working as promised.
Cheers,
Marius
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I would love to, but am not convinced the BDP-2 solves problems caused by used techniques on Roons side..
So, seems not to be the BDP, but specific Roon programming causing described problems. Trying to sort those out right now. The fact that several users are not reporting issues, or even more, reporting to have no issues, doesn't mean there aren't any...
There are many post on the fora/community on various technical issues Roon needs to sort before it will be working as promised.
Cheers,
Marius
If the programming seems flawed, then ditch it. Sounds like it's system-dependent for total compatibility; as you said: several users here found it to be working quite well (if their posts are to be believed).
It's the SQ that matters (imo, etc).
Prosit
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Krutsch, do you think the less than stellar results might with Roon might perhaps be a result of internet speed/connection and the devices used rather than Roon's method directly? I get maybe one or two short dropouts (millisecond) each day.
I will admit last year when I tested Roon vs. Audirvana Plus to the same DAC via USB, the Audirvana Plus was ahead. Although since then I've heard Roon has improved things.
I haven't tried Roon with headphones or gone back to MPD since I installed Roon. I'll try to listen a lot more today with Roon and then go back to MPD.
I will say that I am actually listening a lot more material via Roon than I ever did with Maniac Moose.
EDIT: Also, I did say I was going to test out different formats but got so lazy after enjoying Roon's UI. Everything is WAV. Every system and configuration gets fed uncompressed files.
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Also, can someone tell me if the audiostream in Roon is processed real time or in advance and placed in memory? I think MPD stores it in memory?
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Dare not to say flawed, but below images speak for them selves.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146646) (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146647)
Not ditching yet, waiting for Roon to help and maybe overcome this.
Meanwhile, 5384 mp3's are analyzed, in half a day.
Cheers, indeed!
Marius
If the programming seems flawed, then ditch it. Sounds like it's system-dependent for total compatibility; as you said: several users here found it to be working quite well (if their posts are to be believed).
It's the SQ that matters (imo, etc).
Prosit
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Any benefits to going to the latest update for someone who is not interested in ROON?
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Any benefits to going to the latest update for someone who is not interested in ROON?
Hi
Yes generally there are small bug fixes etc. along the way.
james
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So... Basically... In your experience Roons sound quality is less than MPDs?
There are several fora where users have come to this conclusion as well. And not only compared to MPD.
I don't know, yet.
I finished changing the system over to direct-attached storage for the Roon library, and that seems to have solved the gapless playback problem. There is a thread on the Roon community forum where even the Roon CTO is discouraging people from using NAS shares for the library. I think that's lazy programming on the part of Roon, but it did resolve the issue. My NAS share and HDD have similar performance numbers, using Blackmagic Speed Test, but NAS always as a significant difference in latency over direct-attached storage; I think that's the issue, as Roon waits too long to start loading the follow-on track.
So, I am back to listening exclusively on Roon. I think the differences are subtle, of course, so in my experience it takes time to acclimate to one, before switching to the other and observing differences.
That said, when I re-listened to the same album via MPD last night it really did sound better. The Roon version seems flat, with a compressed image (in an HD-700 headphone sort-of way) and the MPD version invokes more of an emotional response from me (sorry, I don't how to describe this). It reminded me of the same feeling I had listening to familiar music from the BDP-1 for the first time.
I'll keep at it...
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Krutsch, do you think the less than stellar results might with Roon might perhaps be a result of internet speed/connection and the devices used rather than Roon's method directly? I get maybe one or two short dropouts (millisecond) each day.
...
EDIT: Also, I did say I was going to test out different formats but got so lazy after enjoying Roon's UI. Everything is WAV. Every system and configuration gets fed uncompressed files.
See my previous post on the network issues.
As far as formats are concerned, I don't think it matters. Roon transcodes everything to (I assume) PCM and ships that over the network for the RAAT app on the playback endpoint to feed to the audio subsystem (i.e. ALSA for Linux).
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Any benefits to going to the latest update for someone who is not interested in ROON?
A detailed change log appears on the update firmware page before installing the firmware. Anything listed from the top to were your current firmware revision appears will apply to your unit.
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See my previous post on the network issues.
Roon transcodes everything to (I assume) PCM and ships that over the network for the RAAT app
DSD will play as DSD as long as DoP is selected in the Roon settings on the BDP.
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I've gone back and forth between Roon and MPD in very quick intervals (switch over in 15-20 seconds) as well as taking things slow and listening for an hour and above and then A/Bing. There are definitely differences between the two in sound. I'm much more clear on the differences between the two and how they play out on both headphones and speakers. Also, the tendency to exaggerate things.
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I've gone back and forth between Roon and MPD in very quick intervals (switch over in 15-20 seconds) as well as taking things slow and listening for an hour and above and then A/Bing. There are definitely differences between the two in sound. I'm much more clear on the differences between the two and how they play out on both headphones and speakers. Also, the tendency to exaggerate things.
Do tell... I am very curious where you stand.
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Do tell... I am very curious where you stand.
+1!
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That said, when I re-listened to the same album via MPD last night it really did sound better. The Roon version seems flat, with a compressed image (in an HD-700 headphone sort-of way) and the MPD version invokes more of an emotional response from me (sorry, I don't how to describe this). It reminded me of the same feeling I had listening to familiar music from the BDP-1 for the first time.
I'll keep at it...
That was exactly my impression. I've got Roon running on a dedicated computer, a SSD for the boot drive, and everything is wired network (CAT6). So, it's not the network.
It's quite a shame. The Roon interface is quite nice, but I don't see paying $500 for something to degrade the quality.
Which reminds me, thank you Bryston for arranging a 60 day trial. Much more practical than Roon's 14 day trial.
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That was exactly my impression. I've got Roon running on a dedicated computer, a SSD for the boot drive, and everything is wired network (CAT6). So, it's not the network.
It's quite a shame. The Roon interface is quite nice, but I don't see paying $500 for something to degrade the quality.
Which reminds me, thank you Bryston for arranging a 60 day trial. Much more practical than Roon's 14 day trial.
HI,
with you on that.
Unfortunately i must also add that though the frontend seems very attractive, the backend still has many peculiarities (being nice here). Roon is admittedly still very much in development, the Roon team is very responsive, but there are a lot of unanswered for issues. Check the Roon-community for solutions, afterthoughts and feature requests...
Because Roon didnt yet finish indexing and analyzing my library, i havent even been able to really test Roon in real life. so far, with only a couple of test-tracks loaded before I pointed Roon to my library, I've experienced a very clear, too much 2d sound for my taste, compared to the full and 3d sound of MPD. Issues with Gapless transitions and dropouts, made me stop listening and trying to solve those technical issues first, as advised by members here and on Roon.
Still in the middel of that, crossing fingers they solve those within the 2 months....
My personal thoughts on pushing Tidal ('s library) through Roon are rather well summarized in the thread on ROON community: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-integration/6767/11 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/qobuz-integration/6767/11)
Cheers,
Marius
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I'll try to keep it short. Played with Roon and MPD on three different setups:
Setup and gear:
1) Headphones (BDP-1 -> Roon/MPD -> Dangerous Music Source (w/LPS) -> Senn HD 800)
2) Nearfield monitors (BDP-1 -> Roon/MPD -> Dangerous Music Source -> Amphion Amp100 -> Amphion One15 (w/Amphion cabling))
- Room size: 11 feet x 14 feet x 8 feet with monitors in a ~1.0m triangle
3) Midfield monitors (Macbook Pro USB out via Roon -> Emotiva DC-1 -> Mackie HR 824 Mk1)
- For this I couldn't take my BDP-1 as there was no ethernet options there, but proved valuable nonetheless as Roon's signature held up even without the BDP-1
- Room size: 15 feet x 60 feet x 8 feet with monitors in a 10 feet triangle
Notes:
- I had absolutely zero problems with Roon playback or dropout. So I'm very sure I got the best out of Roon.
- Sound signature of the equipment: All the DACs are on the neutral side. HD 800 and the Amphion rigs are being used in top mixing and mastering suites and should be considered neutral. Amphions as vibey ATCs. Pretty much the same resolution, but even improved imaging.
- The Mackies are more pleasing to listen to. More forgiving with bass going down to 30 Hz in my bigger room.
Objective assessment:
MPD in comparison to Roon:
- More 3D sounding
- Smoother sounding, especially noticeable in vocals
- Perhaps a touch on the warmer side, or you can say Roon is colder depending on your taste (I vote for MPD as warm and Roon as neutral)
- I didn't pay that much attention to bass (which is a good indicator in itself!), but both seemed spot on. No problem with either.
Roon in comparison to MPD:
- Tendency to be more 2D sounding, although on good recordings, Roon has just as much depth as MPD (Diana Panton - If the Moon Turns Green album was a good litmus test for me).
- Noticeably better imaging than MPD. On headphones, I might prefer MPD at times, but on speakers Roon always imaged better. Even on tracks where I know there are 5 degree pans, it was very easy to pick up on Roon. Studying imaging on Roon was a passive job, no energy required at all. With MPD, it seemed a bit sloppy.
- On the midfield setup, Roon had the strongest centerstage performance. The phantom image was dead on there.
Somewhat subjective and objective:
+++ Roon possesses more grittyness and rawness in the vocals and better substance of the tracks: I mean this in a very good way. I always had a feeling in the back of my mind that MPD was over smoothening things over, and it was made conscious after Roon.
- When I went to MPD after few days of being exclusive to Roon, it was a nice change at first to have a 3Dish soundstage, but felt suffocating after awhile because the imaging wasn't at tight. The Amphions really helped with that, even more so than the HD 800.
- The lack of imaging coupled with over smoothening of vocals just made me uneasy.
- This is the same reason I sold my LCD-3 Classic and actually preferred both LCD-2.2 Classic and HD 800 over it. The LCD-3 were smoothening the vocals despite being 3D and having high resolution. The lack of texture, grit, and rawness in vocals just made me feel uneasy. Even rappers sounded like jazz singers!
- I would associate MPD with LCD-3 in this case.
- If the vocals are smooth, then they should come out as smooth. If there's coarseness present, then I want to hear that as well.
- Just in case somebody asks if this correlates with Distortion, or my preference for supposed distortion, NO it's not. It's two different things and I am very aware on my nearfield and headphone systems.
What I'd suggest to others in what to look for: pick somebody with the smoothest voice like Diana Panton and grab another track (rap or R&B with a rugged voice). Pay special attention to how the texture is resolved on both songs on MPD vs. Roon. I'd be surprised if it wasn't noticeable after awhile. Sure, you might like one more than the other, but at the least you should be able to notice that it DOES EXIST.
My recommendation:
For headphones: MPD might get the nod because they benefit and need more from the 3D nature of MPD
For speakers: Once you get used to the somewhat flatter presentation of Roon, you will reap the benefits of the vocals on Roon. I also noted my tendency to lean in more when listening to Roon and sitting back when listening to MPD. MPD was very much in my face, whereas Roon was a bit back, but once you put some effort, the vocals were there for easy cherry picking in the soundstage.
I think I am missing one or two other things I wanted to comment about, but I'm drawing a blank currently.
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I'll try to keep it short. Played with Roon and MPD on three different setups:
...
Roon in comparison to MPD:
- Tendency to be more 2D sounding, although on good recordings, Roon has just as much depth as MPD (Diana Panton - If the Moon Turns Green album was a good litmus test for me).
...
Great review and great album choice (one of my test albums, as well). I don't currently have any speakers (long story...), so all of my listening is with headphones. On the 'phones side of things, I agree with your assessments.
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@zoom25,
Thanks for your meticulous review of Roon vs. MPD.
I shall stick with MPD, it does extremely well with symphonies, and indeed with all of my music library. (I also agree with you on the more "2D" presentation with Roon -- not ideal for my kinda musik. I like "in my face"!).
cheers
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@zoom25,
Thanks for your meticulous review of Roon vs. MPD.
I shall stick with MPD, it does extremely well on full speakers with symphonies, and indeed with all of my music library. No lack of 3D imaging in my system. (I also agree with you on the more "2D" presentation with Roon on some headphones -- not ideal for my kinda musik. I like "in my face"!).
cheers
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Thanks guys.
I finally remembered the two things I wanted to say:
1) In addition to depth, the height of the soundstage is also reduced in Roon
2) I forgot to say the most important thing: This was a comparison actively looking for differences between MPD and Roon. My purpose was to identify and describe the differences in a somewhat isolated manner. This does not necessarily have a bearing on their actual cohesive performance or as standalone units.
I think most people will end up preferring MPD if they only could keep one from a SQ standpoint, and I think I would fall in that category as well. MPD does so many things better than Roon as a whole.
I both fully understand AND agree with CanadianMaestro's previous comment. MPD just fills up the room in a beautiful way.
There is no imaging problem with MPD in 3D. Roon is only comparatively better, but at the cost of being 2D...so the 2Dness and projected imaging are definitely in tandem and a function of each other. Another byproduct of this is that Roon might seem to have a touch more attack, whereas MPD sounds a bit slower, but also fuller.
It's definitely a mixed bag and a trade-off, especially for Roon. MPD is the more complete package...I hope I didn't confuse anyone with this and the previous post :duh:
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=146737)
Another thing I was able to test was how Roon's performance compared feeding the same DAC via USB or AES (BDP-1). I enabled/disabled everything for max performance on USB. The two streams were perfectly in sync and at same levels. I switched between AES and USB at click of button. It is very quick on my Dangerous Source and results in no dropouts or clicks. It's extremely fluid and perfect for A/Bing.
The Bryston definitely came out on top. More air up top and better resolution in the vocals. The timing and energy on USB feels lagging to some extent.
Another way in which the Bryston reigns supreme. :thumb:
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Great review and shows that the MPD system is as good as Roon or at least in the same class. So now all many of us BDP users want is a Bryston sourced app for BDP-2 on IOS and Android platforms with an easy to use graphic rich experience. I can dream
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Zoom25: :bowdown:
Thank you for this very clear review!
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Hi all,
Strangely enough my experience with Roon via the BDP2 is nearly the exact opposite of many of zoom25's findings, which I think points to one's system sound rather than a superiority of MPD vs Roon. Your mileage will vary.
I had the opportunity to test the fabulous(ly cheap) Sonore microRendu against my BDP2 and that got me comparing Bryston's MPD implementation against Roon again.
First off (tested with USB as that's the only hook up for the Sonore):
Music stored on QNAP NAS. Roon running on 2011 Mac Mini w/8gb RAM and 500gb HDD
microRendu and BDP2 hooke up to Netgear Gigabit switch.
Audioquest Pearl Cat7 cable used in equal lengths to both BDP2 and microRendu.
I kept my test to one track "The Cobweb" by Giovanni Guidi Trio (none of you are required to like my taste in music :D)
the microRendu Roon App seemed to have similar sound staging to my Bryston running Roon. The piano and and light percussion did not have the same presence as the BDP2. The soundstage seemed ever so slightly "masked" via the microRendu. Other differences were quite small. Did not compare the microRendu's MPD implementation as it is actually not the same method used by the BDP2.
Second (BDP2 MPD vs Roon via USB):
MPD's soundstage seemed vague in comparison. There was more width to MPD but the sound appeared to bounce back and forth between the speakers. Roon was comparatively "locked" in and instruments inhabited a solid unwavering space. Roon's soundstage height was noticeably taller, though not so tall as to think I was looking up at the performance. Roon's more solid presentation made instruments appear more vivid, adding to dynamics and realism.
Please note that this is not damning of the BDP2's MPD...just that, in my system, Roon's software seems to be more sophisticated. Also, MPD is an open source program chosen for its robustness and noninvasive (audio wise) approach to file handling. So, again, nothing Bryston has done to diminish its performance. For me, Roon allows me to hear the superiority of the BDP2's hardware, design and build quality.
Thanks for reading,
DJ
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Hi all,
Strangely enough my experience with Roon via the BDP2 is nearly the exact opposite of many of zoom25's findings, which I think points to one's system sound rather than a superiority of MPD vs Roon.
MPD's soundstage seemed vague in comparison. There was more width to MPD but the sound appeared to bounce back and forth between the speakers. Roon was comparatively "locked" in and instruments inhabited a solid unwavering space. Roon's soundstage height was noticeably taller, though not so tall as to think I was looking up at the performance. Roon's more solid presentation made instruments appear more vivid, adding to dynamics and realism.
I actually fully agree with you on all of that, except Roon being taller...I will keep experimenting and who knows, even that may change.
But everything else you said sounds exactly like what I found. On both of my speakers rig, 100% true about the solid unwavering space. Agreed on more dynamics as well (when switching from MPD). Although once you get used to either, both become livable.
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I wonder if the hardware on the Roon Core can be responsible for all of these inconsistencies? I'd have thought with a full computer and relatively good quality components, my implementation would have been less prone to noise than a pre-built system. However, I have no way to track/check that.
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I went back and tried to compare all of my softwares and hardware to gain a feel of the different soundstage, tonality, and vibe I get from each component/pairing. It was an overkill, but had to be done to give myself a quick reset and fresh eyes.
Software:
All connected via USB to DAC
+ Amarra 3.0.2
+ Amarra SQ+ 2.2.2240
+ Audirvana Plus 1.5.10
+ Audirvana Plus 1.5.12
+ Audirvana Plus 2.5.2
+ Roon
+ VLC
I tried to get Roon to work with Amarra SQ but it failed.
Hardware:
+ Bryston BDP-1
+ IPTV optical out (Android based)
+ Macbook Pro
+ Marantz CD5004
+ Playstation 2 optical out
+ Playstation 3 optical out
+ Samsung Smart TV's optical out
+ Toshiba DVD player (nothing special) coaxial out
Results:
- As expected Bryston reigned supreme over all devices regardless of Roon or MPD
- Each software varies in terms of resolution.
- Audirvana Plus 2.5.2 was top in software when using USB. Followed by Roon and Amarra 3.0.2
- The hardware is from the last 20+ years from many different brands, so it was interesting to see the variations in soundstage size, resolution, and smoothness.
- MOST UNIQUE: Out of all the combination, Roon via BDP was unique in the fact that it had the least depth while having very good resolution. Even my Toshiba DVD player threw a more 3D soundstage but was crap in resolution and nowhere near its imaging. It's a unique position. Something that I haven't experienced to date before at this level.
- MPD: One thing I picked up about MPD was that in comparison to other components and especially Roon, MPD had this apparent honkiness in the upper mids. This is noticeable when you first changeover from Roon. Over time this honkiness turns to add some depth and weight to the vocals. Drake's tracks are a good way to examine it because his songs in the past few years have the vocals occupying the entire top end. Look out for upper mids.
- When switching over from MPD to Roon, as many have said, the soundstage and image feels compressed and 2D sounding. Although over time, this slowly becomes a feeling of a "distant" soundstage rather than a "compressed or 2D" soundstage. This is an important distinction IMO. Kind of like sitting a few seats back from the action whereas the MPD is like sitting courtside.
- Most devices from the past 20 years I tried had a sound like MPD, except that as they got better, the resolution improved. Roon on the other hand immediately stuck out. People might not be liking Roon because its different from what they are accustomed to.
Summary:
- I still haven't picked which I ultimately prefer. Neither presentation is absolute or wrong. I have until September to go back and forth.
- MPD and Manic Moose are very straight forward and have the folder view structure which works like I expect it to.
- Roon's software from a UI perspective is the best out there IMO...I drop folders into the external hard drive and everything gets handled. It's like having a clone of myself organizing my music to my standards in the background.
One question:
When you guys compare MPD and Roon, how much time do you spend listening to each before going back and forth? Weeks, Days, hours, minutes, few second interval back and forth?
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Great review and shows that the MPD system is as good as Roon or at least in the same class. So now all many of us BDP users want is a Bryston sourced app for BDP-2 on IOS and Android platforms with an easy to use graphic rich experience. I can dream
I do use MPad and MPod, but artwork remains funky for me. I'm on the computer on a lot, so I end up using Manic Moose the most. If you know from the start what you want to listen to, then Manic Moose is perfect. Although, on days where you aren't quite sure, Manic Moose doesn't provide the same inspiration the way Roon does. In Roon, if you have a really big library with enough songs for all genres, all you need to do is find the first song. That's it. After that song, Roon automatically keeps the vibe going. It's genre/music matched shuffle feature is my TOP feature of Roon IMO. Not the artwork, or album and artist info. I rarely look at the Roon interface. I play a song and then Roon just matches the vibe and keeps it going successfully for hours. It's a high end radio experience without commercials.
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I do use MPad and MPod, but artwork remains funky for me. I'm on the computer on a lot, so I end up using Manic Moose the most. If you know from the start what you want to listen to, then Manic Moose is perfect. Although, on days where you aren't quite sure, Manic Moose doesn't provide the same inspiration the way Roon does. In Roon, if you have a really big library with enough songs for all genres, all you need to do is find the first song. That's it. After that song, Roon automatically keeps the vibe going. It's genre/music matched shuffle feature is my TOP feature of Roon IMO. Not the artwork, or album and artist info. I rarely look at the Roon interface. I play a song and then Roon just matches the vibe and keeps it going successfully for hours. It's a high end radio experience without commercials.
I LOVE the idea of playing one song and having Roon select other similar songs for a customized "radio". Excellent feature. I wish I could get it to use Tidal's library to augment the selection (without ME adding Tidal albums to my Roon collection).
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...
One question:
When you guys compare MPD and Roon, how much time do you spend listening to each before going back and forth? Weeks, Days, hours, minutes, few second interval back and forth?
So far, I've only had time to test with minutes and seconds between songs. Sometimes I've listened to a song all the way through, then switched. Other times, I've listened to a particular passage (say 30 seconds or so) and switched back and forth and back again.
I know this seems vague, but I just found that I wasn't as engaged in the music through Roon. I didn't get lost in enjoying the music. It just felt... flatter.
There's an audio optimizer software thing for use on Windows servers and maybe Windows 10. It basically strips out tons of extraneous things from the operating system in an effort to optimize the system. I'm wondering if that concept isn't the culprit. Perhaps a Linux-based server or Windows server that was audio optimized would help with the sound quality?
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I know this seems vague, but I just found that I wasn't as engaged in the music through Roon. I didn't get lost in enjoying the music. It just felt... flatter.
There's an audio optimizer software thing for use on Windows servers and maybe Windows 10. It basically strips out tons of extraneous things from the operating system in an effort to optimize the system. I'm wondering if that concept isn't the culprit. Perhaps a Linux-based server or Windows server that was audio optimized would help with the sound quality?
Have a read : Why Do WAV And FLAC Files Sound Different? (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0716/Why_Do_WAV_And_FLAC_Files_Sound_Different.htm) If this is anywhere near truth, what would that mean for Roon and the likes. Might it explain (y)our experience? Does this advocate a device focussed on playing the music files, rather then representing them in a visually attractive way, and have tons of other calculations, cross referencing and tagging going on in the background (Roons words).
Cheers,
Marius
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I LOVE the idea of playing one song and having Roon select other similar songs for a customized "radio". Excellent feature. I wish I could get it to use Tidal's library to augment the selection (without ME adding Tidal albums to my Roon collection).
I don't have TIDAL at the moment, but having that feature incorporate TIDAL as well would be amazing for hours and hours of fun.
So far, I've only had time to test with minutes and seconds between songs. Sometimes I've listened to a song all the way through, then switched. Other times, I've listened to a particular passage (say 30 seconds or so) and switched back and forth and back again.
I know this seems vague, but I just found that I wasn't as engaged in the music through Roon. I didn't get lost in enjoying the music. It just felt... flatter.
There's an audio optimizer software thing for use on Windows servers and maybe Windows 10. It basically strips out tons of extraneous things from the operating system in an effort to optimize the system. I'm wondering if that concept isn't the culprit. Perhaps a Linux-based server or Windows server that was audio optimized would help with the sound quality?
Funny thing you mentioned about the optimizer. I'm actually looking around for the script that I got from Amarra for MAC. It disables a bunch of things. It's optimizations in disabling are more aggressive than Audirvana Plus. I'm looking into that next and see if it does anything for Roon. The other thing I have been reading about is HQ player. When I tried it last year the software seemed to go above my head and it wouldn't play music.
Also, I share your sentiment of the flatter image when switching over to Roon from MPD, but give it some time. Try to have a passive session and just listen for a few hours straight while doing anything. I find that helps me get acclimated the fastest. Play your greatest hits. Active listening makes you focus on certain things while ignoring other things. Plus, you'll be over stressing the auditory nervous system. Happened to me yesterday after the extensive back and forth. Music became noise.
I would love to hear your thoughts after a day of passive listening where you are in the sweet spot but doing other things like reading, browsing the net, or playing games.
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Have a read : Why Do WAV And FLAC Files Sound Different? (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0716/Why_Do_WAV_And_FLAC_Files_Sound_Different.htm) If this is anywhere near truth, what would that mean for Roon and the likes. Might it explain (y)our experience? Does this advocate a device focussed on playing the music files, rather then representing them in a visually attractive way, and have tons of other calculations, cross referencing and tagging going on in the background (Roons words).
Cheers,
Marius
I'm on the side of WAV if you want peace of mind. On some systems, FLAC and WAV make absolutely no difference. On others WAV sounds better than FLAC. ALAC being the worst of the bunch. I have objectively tested ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV in terms of CPU usage and buffer times. Avoid ALAC. FLAC third place. AIFF at a much higher second place. WAV number one...all in relative terms....but seriously, ALAC should be avoided. Had another guy on a Naim system tell me he preferred the formats in the same order as me.
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I'm on the side of WAV if you want peace of mind. On some systems, FLAC and WAV make absolutely no difference. On others WAV sounds better than FLAC. ALAC being the worst of the bunch. I have objectively tested ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV in terms of CPU usage and buffer times. Avoid ALAC. FLAC third place. AIFF at a much higher second place. WAV number one...all in relative terms....but seriously, ALAC should be avoided. Had another guy on a Naim system tell me he preferred the formats in the same order as me.
HI!
When I started with my BDP some 5 years or so ago, I've tried to hear the differences, wasn't sure i did, and then started building the library with Flac. Mainly because Bryston advocated that (i think to remember.... and the tagging convenience). Guess my system falls in your category above. Science seems to dictate this to be expected since both are valid lossless formats, that get played and converted likewise.
When i did some direct comparing, albeit on Mp3's of some very well known tracks (Patricia Barber in this case) of BDP/MPD with attached HDD, and BDP/ROON reading from the server, there is not a single doubt the MPD sounds far superior. I rule out the server as culprit, BDP/MPD and mp3 from server sound identical, as do all formats. No difference between BPD/MPD playing from attached HDD's or NAS served music. The latter might well be the ideal configuration, since you don't have the spinning discs in your auditorium, and have limitless storing capability. especially valid for the BDP1.
Ive always felt BDP/MPD make listening to good MP3's practically indistinguishable from full resolution flacs/wavs, so was comfortable testing the first couple of tracks with the MP3 format.
But this is maybe beside the point here, i meant to draw attention to what the author states about the reason for deteriorated SQ being tall the tagging going on. ROON does a lot of this, even while serving/playing the files. Would this cause the effects on SQ we believe we heard? Could it really be.
I will test with FLAC files also, but need ROON to first finish analyzing the files. It will take a couple of extra days in the current tempo... :cry:
Cheers anyway..
Marius
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Hi Marius,
I also started with FLAC library for the same reasons. Support on most devices and artwork support. Although, converting the entire library to WAV was quite easy with XLD through its batch conversion. I got 500 GB done in few hours. Same folder structure and everything. It's quite easy to A/B on MPD as it buffers very fast in comparison to just about any other software I've used, including Audirvana Plus and Roon. I can skip anywhere in the track rapidly right after clicking on the track and it will play without any stops.
Also, yes I agree with your assessment of MP3s on MPD. Wouldn't say indistinguishable from WAV when listening very critically with microscopic focus, especially through headphones, but for playback and enjoyment, MP3 works wonders.
That article mentions that going back and forth between formats somehow loses sound quality....? I have never experienced that with any decent converter software that checks to make sure the resulting file is identical. XLD on Mac and Exact Audio Copy on Windows are all you need. I can go back and forth as many times and the file will still be the same as the original, regardless of compressed or uncompressed.
My case to support WAV is only for live playback where things might be more complicated perhaps.
I'm not sure about the artwork honestly. From the limited knowledge I have, the artwork doesn't or shouldn't interact with the audio. In practical world tests, the artwork doesn't do anything to the sound quality. I'm speaking from first hand experience. I've used many softwares that converted files to ALAC, FLAC, WAV from CDs without any embedded metadata or artwork. The files would just be called "Track 01.flac" and "Track 02.flac" and so on. Nothing extra on top of them. I would even check the metadata and everything would be blank....yet the sound quality differences were still there.
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Isn't this thread about Roon? :green:
(I prefer FLAC myself -- can't hear any diff with WAV 8) ; saves lots more space too. Even with MP3-320 vs. 44/16 CD rips -- the really well-rec MP3-320s are indistinguishable on my BDP-1).
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I'm on the side of WAV if you want peace of mind. On some systems, FLAC and WAV make absolutely no difference. On others WAV sounds better than FLAC. ALAC being the worst of the bunch. I have objectively tested ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV in terms of CPU usage and buffer times. Avoid ALAC. FLAC third place. AIFF at a much higher second place. WAV number one...all in relative terms....but seriously, ALAC should be avoided. Had another guy on a Naim system tell me he preferred the formats in the same order as me.
You've ordered them on the level of difficulty for a little-endian system to unpack and decode the PCM data within. WAV and AIFF differ only in that AIFF uses a big-endian ordering, which is a legacy consideration from the Mac PowerPC days (like when I was in school a hundred years ago). But a byte-swap on a modern CPU is immeasurably fast, so I can't believe there is any measurable difference between WAV and AIFF. I can play AIFF 192/24 files on my BDP-1 and MPD runs at something like 5% CPU utilization.
FLAC is very easy to unpack and decode - it was designed that way from the outset - and my experience measuring on the BDP-1 is very close to AIFF (more CPU used, but not much more).
ALAC, on the other hand, allows metadata to be placed almost anywhere in the file and, as such, as a far more complicated format to unpack. I've seen 192/24 ALAC files consume as much as 50% CPU in some cases. So, yeah, it's a tough format for things like the low-powered BDP-1.
But that's really the magic of Roon - Roon off-loads all of this unpacking/decoding to another machine (RoonServer) and sends the equivalent of WAV to the target renderer (PCM data). Roon does add additional network overhead for control, et al., but you can watch the RAAT app run on a BDP-1 and, even with high-resolution files, it utilizes WAV-like levels of the CPU.
Best of all worlds... I am at a loss to explain the sound differences between AIFF via MPD and the same music via Roon.
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Thank you, Krutsch
Helpful and very interesting.
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I did get to listen again last night, but not a very lengthy session. Depending on what I listened to, there can be a dramatic difference.
The MPD seemed fuller and more engaging. Music struck an emotional cord with me. Playing via Roon, the music had a tendency to seem less dynamic. I get where someone said more focused. Indeed I was able to pick out specific instruments, but the sound was flatter. Now I'm not sure which one is closer to what it was intended to sound like (which is always my goal... if the recording was crappy, I want to hear the best, unaltered version of crappy I can).
For kicks and giggles, I played the same tracks through my Sonos. MPD was much closer to Sonos but clearly a better and more natural sound. Roon was all by itself.
I also get where someone (same person I think) said Roon was more 2-dimensional. That pin-point accuracy seemed to normalize the music to a point where it had no depth, which may be why it did not strike an emotional response with me.
Regardless, there's definitely a difference. I'll do some extended casual listening in a few weeks and see which I prefer when I'm not so focused on the differences.
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Regardless of whichever (Roon/MPD) people prefer, the most important thing is that almost everyone agrees that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I have yet to hear someone say MPD is the same as Roon.
I would love to hear from Bryston engineers on why the sound differs between both, and if they (Bryston or Roon) are planning to take actions about it. Many people elsewhere have also found Roon sounding quite a bit different from other softwares and endpoints. I'm all ears Bryston...
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Regardless of whichever (Roon/MPD) people prefer, the most important thing is that almost everyone agrees that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I have yet to hear someone say MPD is the same as Roon.
I would love to hear from Bryston engineers on why the sound differs between both, and if they (Bryston or Roon) are planning to take actions about it. Many people elsewhere have also found Roon sounding quite a bit different from other softwares and endpoints. I'm all ears Bryston...
Hi All Ears,
No plans here to change our version of MPD.
james
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Hi All Ears,
No plans here to change our version of MPD.
james
Hello James,
I meant Roon. MPD is fine as it is.
Regards,
All Ears
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Hello James,
I meant Roon. MPD is fine as it is.
Regards,
All Ears
Hi
Oh sorry misread that - Roon is bit perfect so they feel comfortable with their software as is.
james
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Hi
Oh sorry misread that - Roon is bit perfect so they feel comfortable with their software as is.
james
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." :D
Between Audirvana Plus, Amarra, Amarra SQ, Foobar2000, VLC, Roon, MPD in the past few years and all their bit-perfectness, sound me confused.
It's interesting to read up on the Roon community forum and people's impressions. I would love to hear from others here as time goes on.
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"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others." :D
"All bits are perfect but some bits are more perfect than others." - George Orwell
Between Audirvana Plus, Amarra, Amarra SQ, Foobar2000, VLC, Roon, MPD in the past few years and all their bit-perfectness, sound me confused.
It's interesting to read up on the Roon community forum and people's impressions. I would love to hear from others here as time goes on.
I am still working through my Roon vs. MPD listening observations... I took some time out to transcode my MPD library back to FLAC, and to update all of the multi-disc albums with the "right" set of tags to be completely compatible with Manic Moose.
It's been fascinating to read the many threads on the Roon community asking about sound quality - all of them from the point of view that something is amiss, but they can't put their finger on exactly what the issue is. Many comments that mirror the above about flat, lifeless sound, etc.
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"All bits are perfect but some bits are more perfect than others." - George Orwell
I am still working through my Roon vs. MPD listening observations... I took some time out to transcode my MPD library back to FLAC, and to update all of the multi-disc albums with the "right" set of tags to be completely compatible with Manic Moose.
It's been fascinating to read the many threads on the Roon community asking about sound quality - all of them from the point of view that something is amiss, but they can't put their finger on exactly what the issue is. Many comments that mirror the above about flat, lifeless sound, etc.
Perfect! Using it like that from now on. Thanks.
Yes, I only found out about Roon's community forums a few days and have just been extensively reading the ones concerned with the SQ, and a lot of them use HQplayer and JRiver, few Audirvana Plus and Amarra. Some don't like Roon's SQ in comparison to others. Other people find Roon to be better than their previous players. A bunch of them find them "close enough" to their previous players. A very few select can tell no difference...The important conclusion IMO being Roon still sounds different from other software and hardware players, for better or worse. I'm talking about a group of 100+ people here.
I mentioned this to Roon in the past year and they said the same thing about the "bit perfect stream" when I compared it against Audirvana Plus, which is also bit-perfect. They said it should not be happening and that the audio stream is perfect, and there should be no difference in sound. Since then, they started using Exclusive Mode and a few others optimizations that were not previously available in Roon...so going by their own reasoning...why bother??? Wasn't it already bit perfect and thus perfect?
Roon (same goes for Bryston) does seem very active and hospitable on their forums and always willing to respond, so I don't know if they genuinely cannot replicate the "problem" or hear the sound difference that so many of use are experiencing on plethora of system combinations, or they know about it, but are working on it.
Reading some of the material from the early beta threads over there, one of their representatives said:
As for Bryston's SQ: My understanding is that that issue has been resolved internally within Bryston. They did not contact us for technical help on this point, so we never learned the details. I know that the SQ stuff was the subject of a rumor mill, but I wouldn't read into it too much. All it says to me is that a product was made available to the public before it was ready. I don't think it really provides insight into what is going on within Bryston or within Roon.
Not trying to start something, but just got me curious. I will say that I do have faith in both Roon and Bryston to continue to listen to their customers and try to see if anything can be done about it. I know manufacturers strongly avoid to negatively comment on other companies when collaborating or in general, but I would love to hear if Bryston thinks MPD sounds the same as Roon or not when playing the same file through a Bryston BDP-1/2. Not whether it's bit perfect or not and all that, but their own subjective audio interpretations.
Again not concerned with whether MPD or Roon sounds better, but simply whether they (Roon or Bryston) actually can or cannot hear the difference. Not much else to say. I have repeated myself a few times already.
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Bit-perfect or not, the end-point "device" for all of this is our auditory system in our brains. As long as that is plastic, there will always be variations in music/sound perception. Would not have it any other way. :thumb:
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In regards to my earlier posts about issues with gapless playback with Roon; it seems they've identified the root cause.
I'm glad my pestering is sometimes helpful 8)
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gapless-transitions-network-latency/12730 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gapless-transitions-network-latency/12730)
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HI Ken,
Could you please check the link, we're not allowed to go there....
Marius
In regards to my earlier posts about issues with gapless playback with Roon; it seems they've identified the root cause.
I'm glad my pestering is sometimes helpful 8)
https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gapless-transitions-network-latency/12730 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gapless-transitions-network-latency/12730)
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HI Ken,
Could you please check the link, we're not allowed to go there....
Marius
Sorry... works for me, but maybe it's somehow tied to my account in the Roon community. I described to them an issue related to gapless playback issues I was having; especially with my library located on a NAS share. They asked for suggestions on how to reproduce it and I suggested using a Network Traffic Shaping tool (I won't copy my lengthy post).
Here was the response from their CTO:
I was able to reproduce the symptom you described using Network Link Conditioner on a mac.
The root cause was not related to buffering. The issue was the amount of time taken in the close() system call for the previous track. Over a network link with an artificial 200ms latency, this operation can take 1-3 seconds.
That close() call happened to be inside of a lock that is shared with the thread that pumps out audio packets. So essentially, we'd stop sending packets for 1-3 seconds during close().
RAAT devices have a buffer that's roughly 2.5 seconds long. So if close() is fast enough, the endpoint buffer can smooth out the interruption, but if it was closer to the worst case behavior, you could get a dropout right around the track boundary.
I moved the close() call out of the critical path...it will happen safely in a background thread at its leisure.
This fix will go out in our next build. Thanks for the help in tracking this down.
I am very impressed with Roon's customer interactions; like Bryston, they seem to really care and are very transparent with their community.
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Sorry... works for me, but maybe it's somehow tied to my account in the Roon community. I described to them an issue related to gapless playback issues I was having; especially with my library located on a NAS share. They asked for suggestions on how to reproduce it and I suggested using a Network Traffic Shaping tool (I won't copy my lengthy post).
Here was the response from their CTO:
I am very impressed with Roon's customer interactions; like Bryston, they seem to really care and are very transparent with their community.
Thank you so much, great outcome.
+1 to the Roon team for responsiveness.
Cheers,
Marius
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I am very impressed with Roon's customer interactions; like Bryston, they seem to really care and are very transparent with their community.
Definitely! The guys at Bluesound could learn from this! Instead they simply ban anyone critical. If you have an idea that doesn't fit Tonys agenda and speak up about it: BAN!!!
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Can the Roon and Shairplay services run at the same time? When I turn Roon Ready on Shairplay stops.
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Can the Roon and Shairplay services run at the same time? When I turn Roon Ready on Shairplay stops.
that is normal
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HI Chris,
Could you please check once again why the BDP1 can't operate files over the network while on Roon Ready mode?
Ive tried several times, and its a positive and 100% repeatable issue:
Roon ready mode on: no file transfers are possible, Mac finder won't connect to or show the BDP's attached drives and containing files. BDP is visible in Finder.
Rond ready mode off: instantly available in Mac finder, all options as usual possible.
btw: i can click the update button either in the main interface or in the Settings/Disk tab. This seems a bit strange since the MPD out of office warning is also showing. I think my BDP hung after i clicked, didnt go back to that afterwards. Might be worth looking into also. Just as all other MPD references/operations still 'live' in MM while in Rood Ready Mode, which of course they aren't.
Cheers,
Marius
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HI Chris,
Could you please check once again why the BDP1 can't operate files over the network while on Roon Ready mode?
Ive tried several times, and its a positive and 100% repeatable issue:
Roon ready mode on: no file transfers are possible, Mac finder won't connect to or show the BDP's attached drives and containing files. BDP is visible in Finder.
Rond ready mode off: instantly available in Mac finder, all options as usual possible.
btw: i can click the update button either in the main interface or in the Settings/Disk tab. This seems a bit strange since the MPD out of office warning is also showing. I think my BDP hung after i clicked, didnt go back to that afterwards. Might be worth looking into also. Just as all other MPD references/operations still 'live' in MM while in Rood Ready Mode, which of course they aren't.
Cheers,
Marius
Hi Marius
Chris is on a weeks holiday so it will be next week before he can answer.
james
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well deserved!
Cheers, and thanks.
Marius
Hi Marius
Chris is on a weeks holiday so it will be next week before he can answer.
james
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HI Chris,
Could you please check once again why the BDP1 can't operate files over the network while on Roon Ready mode?
Ive tried several times, and its a positive and 100% repeatable issue:
Roon ready mode on: no file transfers are possible, Mac finder won't connect to or show the BDP's attached drives and containing files. BDP is visible in Finder.
Rond ready mode off: instantly available in Mac finder, all options as usual possible.
btw: i can click the update button either in the main interface or in the Settings/Disk tab. This seems a bit strange since the MPD out of office warning is also showing. I think my BDP hung after i clicked, didnt go back to that afterwards. Might be worth looking into also. Just as all other MPD references/operations still 'live' in MM while in Rood Ready Mode, which of course they aren't.
Cheers,
Marius
I havn't been able to reproduce this with either my office units or my home setup's, have you tried using the connect to server option found under the go menu in finder? I'll take a look into the odd behavoir with the web interface when i get a chance.
Cheers,
Chris
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Thank Chris,
Yes i have tried the go route.
No succes though.
its not the web interface thats behaving oddly, its Mac Finder that won't connect. (that is, i can see it in the server list/left pane in Finder. Selecting that does nothing, no folders, nor files appear)
I can reach the BDP in the web browser and launch MM. Just can't operate files in Finder. Roon suggested that might per design, since Roon ready needs file on the NAS (or at least Roon Server) to be read, and not on the player. Also suggested to check with a certain Chris Rice, do i know him? ;)
Lol.
Cheers,
Marius
I havn't been able to reproduce this with either my office units or my home setup's, have you tried using the connect to server option found under the go menu in finder? I'll take a look into the odd behavoir with the web interface when i get a chance.
Cheers,
Chris
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Back on MPD. Good job Bryston, your own initial implementation still sounds the best in class.
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Back on MPD. Good job Bryston, your own initial implementation still sounds the best in class.
:thumb:
Sometimes "new" just ain't better.
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Dear community,
a few weeks past, humbly sharing with you my impressions on Roon and its integration with my BDP2+BDA3 combo: sounds awful. I am sorry to say. I guess my expectations were high due to the image passed off by Roon Labs.
To be more concrete: MPD sounds far far better. Roon is sending some truly horrible harmonics off to the speakers: intensely muddling all the frequencies -- with the MPD the bass is sharper, taut, defined and the overall imagery and soundstaging is vastly more precise.
To put it in a more "physical" i.e., mathematically model-way: all harmonics to the n-th order seem to be reproduced more accurately through the MPD from Bryston; Roon seems to "add" something in the electronic path that misshapes the harmonics and/or adds new ones.
My tentative root-cause analysis: the Roon signal pathway goes through the PC, correct? Whereas the MPD is inbuilt in the BDP2? Are the PC circuits to blame?
FYI: my kit is Bryston 4BSST2 + BP26 + BDP2 + BDA3 + BOT1 feeding PMC MB2S's.
Just my thoughts.
All best,
Phil
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It seems to me that opinions of Roon are quite polarized. My own experience is quite the opposite of tishbite's. I'm reminded of the early days of USB audio transfer where one PC would sound awful compared to another, all running the same files and playback software. For the life of me I can't tell you why Roon would sound bad on one computer compare to another, as my Mac is the bare minimum recommended to run Roon at all and both system and audio performance are exceptionally good.
But I guess that's why one chooses the BDP2 in the first place; to take the guess work out of computer based audio and simply deliver reliable results.
Cheers,
DJ
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Opinions vary on this topic. I'm sticking with Roon unless I find something I like better. Sonore microRendu tops my early version BDP-1. The BDP-2 upgrade might be a better test. YMMV.
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Opinions vary on this topic. I'm sticking with Roon unless I find something I like better. Sonore microRendu tops my early version BDP-1. The BDP-2 upgrade might be a better test. YMMV.
HI,
I am considering a Sonore MR or upgrade to the BDP2.
Are there any real life tests available? Still on a BDA1, so my USB connection isn't up to par and need the SPDif and/or AES/EBU. Which makes it a one way ticket to the BDA2 i suppose?
Also, to be somewhat future proof, id like the new device to be capable of indexing at least 200K tracks into its database. Havent read a testimony on the BDP2 it can handle that, 60K being the most frequently mentioned number.
Please let me know your experience.
btw, for this OP thread: I've almost given up on ROON, it simply is too buggy. Yesterdays update made 3 weeks of background analyzing go down the drain, and it has now started all over. Havent even begun to really test its audiophile capabilities, other than my early, not too positive experience on the ear. The eye is a different thing all together, and though very nice, its not what i want my music player for. Indeed, YMMV.
Thanks,
Marius
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HI,
I am considering a Sonore MR or upgrade to the BDP2.
Are there any real life tests available? Still on a BDA1, so my USB connection isn't up to par and need the SPDif and/or AES/EBU. Which makes it a one way ticket to the BDA2 i suppose?
Also, to be somewhat future proof, id like the new device to be capable of indexing at least 200K tracks into its database. Havent read a testimony on the BDP2 it can handle that, 60K being the most frequently mentioned number.
Please let me know your experience.
Thanks,
Marius
The microRendu is a USB output device, whereas the BDP-2 is more versatile when it comes to outputs (AES, SPDIF, USB). I am using my BDP-1 via AES/EBU into an upgraded W4S DAC-2. The BDP-1 MM database features never worked for me; it may be my cataloging system is not compatible. I have a small collection of approximately 10K PCM flac files, so capacity is not an issue for me. I don't have any DSD music, other than SACD media.
At this time, you can employ HQPlayer with the mR, not the Bryston players, Bryston could be working on that compatibility behind the scenes. I believe they were looking at that. Cost of the two devices is considerably different, although, in fairness, you would probably need to upgrade the mR with a better power supply to get the most out of it. Bryston durability and warranty is hard to beat. The mR is pretty new on the scene to weigh in on long term durability and performance. Upgrading your DAC might be the best first move. Both companies make great products. That said, the only live tests that matter are your own two ears (and brain). :D
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I am considering a Sonore MR or upgrade to the BDP2
Are there any real life tests available? Still on a BDA1, so my USB connection isn't up to par and need the SPDif and/or AES/EBU. Which makes it a one way ticket to the BDA2 i suppose?
Also, to be somewhat future proof, id like the new device to be capable of indexing at least 200K tracks into its database. Havent read a testimony on the BDP2 it can handle that, 60K being the most frequently mentioned number.
Please let me know your experience.
btw, for this OP thread: I've almost given up on ROON, it simply is too buggy. Yesterdays update made 3 weeks of background analyzing go down the drain, and it has now started all over. Havent even begun to really test its audiophile capabilities, other than my early, not too positive experience on the ear. The eye is a different thing all together, and though very nice, its not what i want my music player for. Indeed, YMMV.
There is a lengthy thread on CA about the microRendu; worth reading if you are really interested. I know folks there use it for MPD, DLNA, as well as Roon, so you could post there and ask if anyone has run into any real database limitations.
One nice thing about MPD is you can exclude whole sub-folders, and below, for the purposes of building your MPD database. So, if you mostly browse by folder, but want indexing for some of your collection, you can do this by placing a a file called .mpdignore in its parent directory on your storage device.
See: https://www.musicpd.org/doc/user/music_directory_and_database.html (https://www.musicpd.org/doc/user/music_directory_and_database.html)
Given that you have a BDP-1, I can see why you like to browse by folder, as indexing that collection would be impossible. But the BDP-2 has a lot more memory, a faster ethernet interface and faster processor, so this might be doable - but if not, see the preceding comment.
Remember that both the BDP-2 and microRendu are running the same MPD (may be slightly different versions), so indexing issues with one will likely exist in the other. The MPD tag cache isn't that large, so both devices should have sufficient flash storage space for even your collection.
As for Roon, you should reach out via the Roon Community and see if they can help you with your collection. I know there are people there that have really large collections.
But, wow... 200,000+ audio tracks? I have 20,000 and I can't imagine what another 190,000 tracks would look like in my collection, unless I started buying up all of those huge 100 CD classical collections.
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HI Ken,
Thanks,
Great references, thanks for that.
Ill return to CA, and look for the thread you're mentioning.
Cool, the MDPignore flag, didn't know about that one. There might be more, unfamiliar to us Brystonians, used to using MPD through MM on the BDP, instead of really 'programming' MPD talk.
As for Roon, i'm on the community, and the Roon people are really helpful.
i was talking future proof (200k). It might be an absurd number, but i believed that for my CD collection too, when i started wayback in '85 was it? I just don't want have to buy substantial hardware upgrades every year.
Thanks again, Cheers,
Marius
..There is a lengthy thread on CA about the microRendu; worth reading if you are really interested. I know folks there use it for MPD, DLNA, as well as Roon, so you could post there and ask if anyone has run into any real database limitations.
One nice thing about MPD is you can exclude whole sub-folders, and below, for the purposes of building your MPD database. So, if you mostly browse by folder, but want indexing for some of your collection, you can do this by placing a a file called .mpdignore in its parent directory on your storage device.
See: https://www.musicpd.org/doc/user/music_directory_and_database.html (https://www.musicpd.org/doc/user/music_directory_and_database.html)
Given that you have a BDP-1, I can see why you like to browse by folder, as indexing that collection would be impossible. But the BDP-2 has a lot more memory, a faster ethernet interface and faster processor, so this might be doable - but if not, see the preceding comment.
Remember that both the BDP-2 and microRendu are running the same MPD (may be slightly different versions), so indexing issues with one will likely exist in the other. The MPD tag cache isn't that large, so both devices should have sufficient flash storage space for even your collection.
As for Roon, you should reach out via the Roon Community and see if they can help you with your collection. I know there are people there that have really large collections.
But, wow... 200,000+ audio tracks? I have 20,000 and I can't imagine what another 190,000 tracks would look like in my collection, unless I started buying up all of those huge 100 CD classical collections.
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I'm still trying to understand and locate the reason for the difference in sound between the MPD player in my BDP-2 and Roon. I REALLY enjoy the Roon interface, but not at the expense of (what I perceive to be) quality.
On the Computer Audiophile forums, the microRendu support folks stated that Roon, "... is streaming directly to the connected hardware device via the microRendu. In contrast, when the microRendu is used in MPD/DLNA output mode it is actually rendering the content and then streaming directly to the connected hardware device."
I'm wondering if something similar is going on with the BDP-2? If so, would the BDP-2 'rendering the content' via MPD possibly account for sonic differences vs Roon 'streaming directly'?
Can Roon be used as a player for the BDP-2 using any other protocols?
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Actually I think that Roon on BDP-2 sounds much more detailed than MPD with more extended highs and lows and better instrument separation. This may sound unusual after MPD so that is why some people complain. Regarding why is the difference - Krutsch already posted a good reference. In short while every player software is bitperfect those bits may be delivered with different timing and processor load, so that is why every player sounds different. For example squeezelite is bitperfect too but sounds worse than MPD. Microrendu uses dual core processor while BDP-2 is single core - so Roon may sound different on it. In theory all differences may be measured and Bryston may have all necesessary equipment, but I'm not sure they have resources and time for such research. I never saw any hardware manufacturer that explain why different players sounds different on their hardware. I know some MPD based audio Linux distros - they use real time patches for Linux Kernel and very subtle tweaks of MPD thread priorities. People behind them claim that every such tweak is important for sound quality. Bryston uses MPD with just default settings and I think it could sound better. For example some raw heavy metal records sound really harsh with MPD - but with Roon I hear much more separation between guitars and bass. My configuration is BDP-2 with Juli card and BDA-2.
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Dear community,
a few weeks past, humbly sharing with you my impressions on Roon and its integration with my BDP2+BDA3 combo: sounds awful. I am sorry to say. I guess my expectations were high due to the image passed off by Roon Labs.
To be more concrete: MPD sounds far far better. Roon is sending some truly horrible harmonics off to the speakers: intensely muddling all the frequencies -- with the MPD the bass is sharper, taut, defined and the overall imagery and soundstaging is vastly more precise.
To put it in a more "physical" i.e., mathematically model-way: all harmonics to the n-th order seem to be reproduced more accurately through the MPD from Bryston; Roon seems to "add" something in the electronic path that misshapes the harmonics and/or adds new ones.
My tentative root-cause analysis: the Roon signal pathway goes through the PC, correct? Whereas the MPD is inbuilt in the BDP2? Are the PC circuits to blame?
FYI: my kit is Bryston 4BSST2 + BP26 + BDP2 + BDA3 + BOT1 feeding PMC MB2S's.
Just my thoughts.
All best,
Phil
Phil, well said.
After experimenting with Roon integration into my setup (4BSST^2, BP-25, BDP-1, BDA-2, Mini T's) - I am in full agreement w/ you regarding superior sound quality using MPD vs. Roon. Specifically, I share your observations of better bass and overall sound stage/imagery using MPD over Roon. These are important areas to pay attention to!! Yes! [If interested, and for those Dylan lovers out there, try switching between Roon and MPD on the Oh Mercy album at 96/24 - quite easy to hear/feel the differences]. Go D.Lanois!
Having said that, I absolutely enjoy Roon's slick interface and connection with Tidal - and will continue to use Roon in my Bryston setup. For more serious listening, I'll switch over to MPD - especially for those long weekends of extended listening!
Thanks to JT and the Byrston crew for their never-ending commitment to product innovation and customer support - and seamlessly bringing Roon and Tidal to us all! thanks guys!! :thumb:
Cheers!
Terry
Smithers, BC
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In my case everything is opposite: Roon is much sharper and bass has more weight than with MPD. Mystique :)
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I still maintain Roon is superior with all PCM resolutions. I say "PCM" because I'm just now playing with DSD files ripped from SACD and each of the 18 albums MPD sound much, much better than in MPD than Roon! :dunno: The sound is clearly more dynamic via MPD. Roon is congested and seems to have a phase issue with higher frequencies when playing DSD. Playback is via the same USB cable and DAC.
So is this a case of MPD being more honest to the file, where Roon is manipulating somehow? Is MPD resolving some level of dynamic compression in PCM files?
DSD is barely on my radar, so Roon is my pick for its superior PCM sonics...in my system
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I still maintain Roon is superior with all PCM resolutions. I say "PCM" because I'm just now playing with DSD files ripped from SACD and each of the 18 albums MPD sound much, much better than in MPD than Roon! :dunno: The sound is clearly more dynamic via MPD. Roon is congested and seems to have a phase issue with higher frequencies when playing DSD. Playback is via the same USB cable and DAC.
So is this a case of MPD being more honest to the file, where Roon is manipulating somehow? Is MPD resolving some level of dynamic compression in PCM files?
DSD is barely on my radar, so Roon is my pick for its superior PCM sonics...in my system
I'm really curious to know which format is the more honest. My first goal has always been to get my music to sound as close to the original as possible. Once that goal is realized, I can use filters or change what music I listen to, or whatever. My boggle now is figuring out which is the more ACCURATE of the two. :scratch:
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Actually I think that Roon on BDP-2 sounds much more detailed than MPD with more extended highs and lows and better instrument separation.
<snip, snip>
You know, I've had the opposite experience with my BDP-1. I wonder if the stronger CPU and faster Ethernet interface on the BDP-2 makes the difference.
I can't shake the feeling that MPD is "louder" somehow, but I've checked the run-time MPD settings and there is no mixer defined or anything else I can see that isn't normal/default - seem to be bit-perfect, straight-through; except that MPD seems to be padding everything to 32-bit (i.e. format: SE_32LE), but I think this is the default behavior and the rate during playback exactly matches the input audio file.
Listening continues... both Roon and MPD sound pretty nice.
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Listening continues... both Roon and MPD sound pretty nice.
I think I've finished my listening impressions and it's a victory for MPD. There is just more impact/weight/texture to the music with MPD; Roon, for whatever reason, sounds compressed/congested with headphone listening. It's not night-and-day, of course, but I find myself wanting to switch back to MPD when I am listening to something I am really enjoying with Roon.
That said, I am going to keep Roon and use it to explore new music, which where the Roon UI really excels; I can do that for hours on-end.
One last note on this: when switching between Roon and MPD, I am noticing odd display behavior on my BDP-1 and have learned to power cycle when switching between services. For example, after switching, the second line of the display will often stay blank and not display the playing artist. And, after switching, sometimes the display will go blank and not come back on, at all, unless I press buttons on the front of the player (I have the display set to always on).
Otherwise, Roon playback is robust and works without any issues (after the latest Roon update). Nice work, Bryston!
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I have bad news - at least for my setup. I captured Roon endpoint output using ALSA tee plugin to wav file - and it is not bit perfect at all. There are lot of PCM samples lost. This dropouts are very short and cannot be heared as clicks, but simply change sound a bit. Moreover resulting file is one second shorter then original track, it looks "faster" than original track - due to samples lost. In contrast MPD output captured this way is absolute copy of original track. This test is very simple and can be reproduced by anyone who understands Linux command line and ALSA - I simply stop Roon Ready service, edit /dev/shm/raat.conf and replace "hw:0,1" with "tee:'hw,0,1',/mnt/img/out.wav,wav". Then I start Roon endpoint manually.
I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in picture below:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147985)
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How do I switch on/off the display on my BDP-1?
From my BR-2 remote or manually on faceplate buttons?
thanks
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I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in picture below:
Wow. You should post this over on the Roon community forum: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/a-better-sound-from-roon/3621/93 (https://community.roonlabs.com/t/a-better-sound-from-roon/3621/93)
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Will do of course. Just will perform some more investigation and look into Roon logs first.
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I have bad news - at least for my setup. I captured Roon endpoint output using ALSA tee plugin to wav file - and it is not bit perfect at all. There are lot of PCM samples lost. This dropouts are very short and cannot be heared as clicks, but simply change sound a bit. Moreover resulting file is one second shorter then original track, it looks "faster" than original track - due to samples lost. In contrast MPD output captured this way is absolute copy of original track. This test is very simple and can be reproduced by anyone who understands Linux command line and ALSA - I simply stop Roon Ready service, edit /dev/shm/raat.conf and replace "hw:0,1" with "tee:'hw,0,1',/mnt/img/out.wav,wav". Then I start Roon endpoint manually.
I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in picture below:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147985)
Excellent post! Fascinating. I wonder if this gives the illusion of a more dynamic and vivid presentation? Certainly that's how I hear it at home. Would be interesting to see Roon's response and the possibility this issue is exacerbated on some networks more than others...if it is indeed brought on by their network protocol.
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I hear exactly same as you - more dynamic and sharp. But I started investigation because different records seem to have something similar between them - some coloration
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I have bad news - at least for my setup. I captured Roon endpoint output using ALSA tee plugin to wav file - and it is not bit perfect at all. There are lot of PCM samples lost. This dropouts are very short and cannot be heared as clicks, but simply change sound a bit. Moreover resulting file is one second shorter then original track, it looks "faster" than original track - due to samples lost. In contrast MPD output captured this way is absolute copy of original track. This test is very simple and can be reproduced by anyone who understands Linux command line and ALSA - I simply stop Roon Ready service, edit /dev/shm/raat.conf and replace "hw:0,1" with "tee:'hw,0,1',/mnt/img/out.wav,wav". Then I start Roon endpoint manually.
I will continue investigation at weekend and contact Roon support of course. But for now their network protocol seems to be not reliable - while it claims to have error recovery. Please see dropped frames in picture below:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147985)
Excellent and helpful analysis. Perhaps explains the coloration I hear on my system when using Roon (I've a PC -- perhaps would be different on a Mac?). In my system MPD is fabulously transparent and crisp (across all frequencies).
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I feel that there is nothing to ask Roon. Protocol is UDP based. Why there is possibility to recover broken packet, there is no way to recover lost packets. The only way to improve their delivery is sophisticated network setup with managed network switch. Otherwise you can't be sure that your audio stream is 100% bitperfect. Its a fun to see audiophile zines advertising Roon. They tell nothing about network setup and packet loss.
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Wow. Interesting posts. All this time I was confused assuming why there was a difference between two bit-perfect streams. I've been on MPD for 10 days. Will hit Roon up again tonight for a bit.
It would be interesting to have a Bryston player that could run the Roon Core in it....BDP-3?
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No way. Roon Core is too heavy for low powered fanless audiophile player
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Hi Chris,
Switched off Roon Ready, because of several technical hiccups. Back to MPD.
Now this happens:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147994)
No automatic reconfiguration, had to reboot already.
MPD won't stick, clicking start/stop:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=147995)
Please help?
Cheers,
Marius
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No way. Roon Core is too heavy for low powered fanless audiophile player
Hence the suggestion for BDP-3?
Also, theoretically speaking, if possible would it be better to send Roon's output from my Mac running Roon Core to BDP-1's USB input via a hardwired USB connection instead over a network?
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I feel that there is nothing to ask Roon. Protocol is UDP based. Why there is possibility to recover broken packet, there is no way to recover lost packets. The only way to improve their delivery is sophisticated network setup with managed network switch. Otherwise you can't be sure that your audio stream is 100% bitperfect. Its a fun to see audiophile zines advertising Roon. They tell nothing about network setup and packet loss.
Thanks so much for your effort in this. I was going nuts trying to figure out why there was a difference. This certainly would explain it.
Could Roon switch to TCP to fix that issue? And what could I do to my network setup to fix that issue? I currently have two switches between the server and the bdp (not using wifi for this part of my network).
Could Bryston make any modifications to the BDP software to help (increase network buffer size, update NIC drivers, etc?)
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Will do of course. Just will perform some more investigation and look into Roon logs first.
Please link the post when you do. I'd love to follow it over there also.
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https://community.roonlabs.com/t/huge-number-of-lost-pcm-samples-in-network-endpoint-output
Please link the post when you do. I'd love to follow it over there also.
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I feel that there is nothing to ask Roon. Protocol is UDP based. Why there is possibility to recover broken packet, there is no way to recover lost packets. The only way to improve their delivery is sophisticated network setup with managed network switch. Otherwise you can't be sure that your audio stream is 100% bitperfect. Its a fun to see audiophile zines advertising Roon. They tell nothing about network setup and packet loss.
UDP doesn't normally "drop" packets on a reasonable network (read: your home); this is more of a problem on congested data center networks. If you are grabbing a random segment and seeing PCM samples being lost, that sounds like a serious protocol deficiency or there is something wrong with your home network (e.g. bad switch or something on the network that blasting out a lot of noise).
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UDP doesn't normally "drop" packets on a reasonable network (read: your home); this is more of a problem on congested data center networks. If you are grabbing a random segment and seeing PCM samples being lost, that sounds like a serious protocol deficiency or there is something wrong with your home network (e.g. bad switch or something on the network that blasting out a lot of noise).
Actually there is no warranty of delivery. No at all. Every network may have its own problems. I only guess why Roon went this way. They could use TCP protocol in price of small delay on start of playback. For example I have no problems with DNLA or squeezelite traffic.
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Actually there is no warranty of delivery. No at all. Every network may have its own problems. I only guess why Roon went this way. They could use TCP protocol in price of small delay on start of playback. For example I have no problems with DNLA or squeezelite traffic.
I am very familiar with UDP, but I can tell you from a lot practical software development experience in networking that it's reliable, most of the time, unless you have the issues I mentioned above.
I can guess why Roon when this way: they need to stream audio to multiple endpoints that are synchronized. With TCP, you can have re-transmits and/or back pressure flow control issues that make timing across multiple receiving sockets difficult. With UDP, you just broadcast to all end-points and on a stable network it will end-up just working.
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I am very familiar with UDP, but I can tell you from a lot practice software development experience in networking that it's reliable, most of the time, unless you have the issues I mentioned above.
I can guess why Roon when this way: they need to stream audio to multiple endpoints that are synchronized. With TCP, you can have re-transmits and/or back pressure flow control issues that make timing across multiple receiving sockets difficult. With UDP, you just broadcast to all end-points and on a stable network it will end-up just working.
Have you heard about Merging Nadac and Ravenna protocol? It is UDP based too. They strictly require managed switch and have a list of certified switches. They strictly require 100% UDP delivery. If Roon goes this way they should provide their own list of switches with sample setup and calibration procedure. Otherwise they risk to repeat USB audio way - it works great but only in theory. Reality is far worse. Anyway let's wait Roon response.
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Have you heard about Merging Nadac and Ravenna protocol? It is UDP based too. They strictly require managed switch and have a list of certified switches. They strictly require 100% UDP delivery. If Roon goes this way they should provide their own list of switches with sample setup and calibration procedure. Otherwise they risk to repeat USB audio way - it works great but only in theory. Reality is far worse. Anyway let's wait Roon response.
Or... you just plug a USB stick into your BDP and enjoy the music, which is where I've returned to :D
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Please see discussion with Roon: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/huge-number-of-lost-pcm-samples-in-network-endpoint-output
In short they claim that their clocking mechanism does not work well with virtual devices like ALSA tee device. So this is the cause of measurement errors. Regarding UDP packets - their protocol is heavily modified and is reliable like TCP. So that is. I don't have audio analyzer hardware to check samples directly from BDP AES output, so let's trust Roon. I appreciate the responsiveness of their support.
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So back to no explanation for why the difference in sound...?
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So back to no explanation for why the difference in sound...?
Brian from Roon said: "I would be interested to see some measurements (or a blind ABX trial with a reasonable population) that quantified the differences more concretely". I absolutely agree. I think that Bryston could perform such measurements and publish results. They should have all required measurement equipment. I only afraid that James and Chris gave up reading this thread :)
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Brian from Roon said: "I would be interested to see some measurements (or a blind ABX trial with a reasonable population) that quantified the differences more concretely". I absolutely agree. I think that Bryston could perform such measurements and publish results. They should have all required measurement equipment. I only afraid that James and Chris gave up reading this thread :)
No I have been reading it with interest and it is a very interesting subject. Not sure there are any definitive answers though :scratch:
james
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James, do you hear a difference between Roon and MPD in your system?
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Brian from Roon said: "I would be interested to see some measurements (or a blind ABX trial with a reasonable population) that quantified the differences more concretely". I absolutely agree. I think that Bryston could perform such measurements and publish results. They should have all required measurement equipment. I only afraid that James and Chris gave up reading this thread :)
Heck, I don't have any vested financial interests in either Roon or Bryston. Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions? Rather spend my time enjoying my library.
It's a typical manufacturer/seller's response to criticisms that don't jive with their marketing agendas.
8)
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Heck, I don't have any vested financial interests in either Roon or Bryston. Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions? Rather spend my time enjoying my library.
It's a typical manufacturer/seller's response to criticisms that don't jive with their marketing agendas.
8)
Because there are pros and cons in both Roon and MPD. I was skeptical about Roon initially, but I really need better UI for managing my library and playback than semi broken open source controller software for MPD.
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The measurements posted earlier here, demonstrated clearly that fidelity is seriously compromised by Roon playback. That's pretty damning, if one wants high fidelity over operational smoothness and library management. I know I do.
Not aware of a single software suite that does both to near perfection.
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The measurements posted earlier here, demonstrated clearly that fidelity is seriously compromised by Roon playback. That's pretty damning, if one wants high fidelity over operational smoothness and library management. I know I do.
Not aware of a single software suite that does both to near perfection.
They claim that this measurement method is incorrect for Roon. Strange that it works perfectly for MPD
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Heck, I don't have any vested financial interests in either Roon or Bryston. Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions? Rather spend my time enjoying my library.
It's a typical manufacturer/seller's response to criticisms that don't jive with their marketing agendas.
8)
Absolutely bang on, CanadianMaestro.
I was going to say exactly that but you put it forth first: "Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions?".
Roon marketing lot can say what they want (though I regret that attitude: essentially they're saying "we don't believe any claims from users that our system is less than perfect; we'll only take anything seriously if you show it a+b") for me in my system Roon is heavily flawed. Do I stand by my senses? A resounding yes.
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They claim that this measurement method is incorrect for Roon. Strange that it works perfectly for MPD
Reminds me of VW and their own "measurements" done in-house and/or for them: look where it landed them.
Anyway, I picked up something noteworthy in Roon's response:
"(...) One notable difference: with Roon+RAAT: the media file is being decoded in the Roon Core. With MPD decoding work is taking place on the BDP.(...)"
Indeed this was my initial thought and (reasoned) observation re. the sound difference. I'd suggest the problem lies with the Roon Core and/or the underlying hardware (i.e. PC, in my case).
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Heck, I don't have any vested financial interests in either Roon or Bryston. Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions? Rather spend my time enjoying my library.
It's a typical manufacturer/seller's response to criticisms that don't jive with their marketing agendas.
8)
I do understand the need for ABX and blind tests, like when I was comparing uncompressed and compressed lossless. On other sites, followed protocols and posted my results and still got crap that I'm just hearing things or something is broken in the system, or there must be DSP going on or it's not bit perfect etc etc.....I get it, it's a close difference between those two.
However, for Roon, the moment I pressed play, it wasn't about hearing a difference but more so of an entirely different feeling of having a seat way back. It seemed aggressive compared to what I had with MPD. The difference is still there. Once it's not that drastic, maybe I'll entertain ABX or blind testing, but as of now with how things stand there is absolutely no need in my system.
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Question for James or Chris:
any plans in the works for future improvements to the BDP's user interface...? just curious.
thanks, Sully
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Question for James or Chris:
any plans in the works for future improvements to the BDP's user interface...? just curious.
thanks, Sully
Hi
I know Chris is constantly working on it based on feedback.
james
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I fear I must agree.
Cancelled my Roon trial today.... because of this.
Also, because in the end, Roon is no more than an interface to my own library. Nothing I can't do without Roon, either for free or a small amount.
Its an extensive interface, some might call it beautiful. But also very confusing and distracting one, and that's without counting in Tidal pushing its preferences down our BDP's.
Hope it will get better over time, and will check back when it is for sure.
Cheers,
Marius
Heck, I don't have any vested financial interests in either Roon or Bryston. Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions? Rather spend my time enjoying my library.
It's a typical manufacturer/seller's response to criticisms that don't jive with their marketing agendas.
8)
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I fear I must agree.
Cancelled my Roon trial today.... because of this.
Also, because in the end, Roon is no more than an interface to my own library. Nothing I can't do without Roon, either for free or a small amount.
Its an extensive interface, some might call it beautiful. But also very confusing and distracting one, and that's without counting in Tidal pushing its preferences down our BDP's.
Hope it will get better over time, and will check back when it is for sure.
Cheers,
Marius
For those of you looking for a nifty, simple, effective, "quality-is-fit-for-purpose" application to act as an interface to Bryston's MPD: I'm using Gnome Music Player Client (v11.8.16; available at http://gmpclient.org) -- and absolutely love it. Give it a try, if I might say so. MPD's sound quality + a nice GUI with useful add-ons. And free.
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For those of you looking for a nifty, simple, effective, "quality-is-fit-for-purpose" application to act as an interface to Bryston's MPD: I'm using Gnome Music Player Client (v11.8.16; available at http://gmpclient.org) -- and absolutely love it. Give it a try, if I might say so. MPD's sound quality + a nice GUI with useful add-ons. And free.
It's not available for mac from what I can see?
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Absolutely bang on, CanadianMaestro.
I was going to say exactly that but you put it forth first: "Why do I need to do ABX/"blind" tests to back up my subjective impressions?".
Roon marketing lot can say what they want (though I regret that attitude: essentially they're saying "we don't believe any claims from users that our system is less than perfect; we'll only take anything seriously if you show it a+b") for me in my system Roon is heavily flawed. Do I stand by my senses? A resounding yes.
Use what you like best. Your impressions, your choice. Your opinion is that Roon is flawed in your system. We do not share that opinion with respect to my system. I am also using Roon with other devices than my Bryston BDP-1. Roon works great FOR ME; my impression, my choice. The Bryston media player is great hardware. The software could be better.
One point to consider is that the Bryston devices were retroactively fitted to work with Roon. Several other devices, including the Sonore microRendu (which I own) where designed to work with Roon, and HQ Player (NAA) from the beginning design stages.
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Use what you like best. Your impressions, your choice. Your opinion is that Roon is flawed in your system. We do not share that opinion with respect to my system. I am also using Roon with other devices than my Bryston BDP-1. Roon works great FOR ME; my impression, my choice. The Bryston media player is great hardware. The software could be better.
One point to consider is that the Bryston devices were retroactively fitted to work with Roon. Several other devices, including the Sonore microRendu (which I own) where designed to work with Roon, and HQ Player (NAA) from the beginning design stages.
I agree with ya completely; ...I wasn't imposing my impressions on anyone in my OP. I was simply griping about another person's refusal to accept collected impressions here, based on a perceived lack of "blind ABX" testing.
Enjoy your system.
cheers
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It's not available for mac from what I can see?
Dang... :cry:
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Try thus one - it is available for Windows and MAC.
http://en.freedownloadmanager.org/Windows-PC/Cantata-FREE.html
james
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The ROON interface is really excellent. It has many features beyond the average music software remote systems. The focus feature for example is a great feature. There are however a few bugs such as the current issue where the queue won't play consecutive tracks with different resolutions. I am sure they will fix this shortly.
However, MPAD is no longer supported, MM I have found difficult to use and cover art unmanageable, Soundiroc good but simplistic. So ROON is for me a saviour.
Audio quality seems good. Compared to MPD it is a bit louder, and to me I perceive more detail. Poorly recorded tracks can also conversely be hard to listen to with heavy bass oriented tracks accentuated. MPD seems more forgiving.
Also one has to be careful when using ROON to access the files. Under certain settings it will completely rearrange the files which can be quite an issue!
A proper manual of setup and maintenance, and usage should be available especially since it is a costly product.
Still working on it. :duh:
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...
Also one has to be careful when using ROON to access the files. Under certain settings it will completely rearrange the files which can be quite an issue!
A proper manual of setup and maintenance, and usage should be available especially since it is a costly product.
See here: https://roonlabs.com/howroonworks.html
You can avoid any changes to your files by using WATCHED folders, instead of ORGANIZED folders.
Hope that helps...
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I unfortunately used the organized. But thanks for the reply. Appreciated.
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I read through most of this thread. I can't understand how people are not happy with sound quality compared to MPD. This must be system dependent. In my system the difference is night and day. I was gobsmacked by the difference I heard in my system. This is the best I have had digital sound in my system. It actually has bloom and timbre. (Roon version 1.2).
My complaint is the skips and dropouts. I can't see that there is a solution to that problem. I tried setting up a RoonServer in my Synology ds214play but the NAS would not accept the skp file as compatible. So it's back to the drawing board.
I think Roon have to write a program which is not so system hungry. Mind you, I've also been having skip problems with JRiver. So there is something happening that needs fixing.
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I read through most of this thread. I can't understand how people are not happy with sound quality compared to MPD. This must be system dependent. In my system the difference is night and day. I was gobsmacked by the difference I heard in my system. This is the best I have had digital sound in my system. It actually has bloom and timbre. (Roon version 1.2).
My complaint is the skips and dropouts. I can't see that there is a solution to that problem. I tried setting up a RoonServer in my Synology ds214play but the NAS would not accept the skp file as compatible. So it's back to the drawing board.
I think Roon have to write a program which is not so system hungry. Mind you, I've also been having skip problems with JRiver. So there is something happening that needs fixing.
If sound quality is so system dependent than the whole solution is broken. I gave up on Roon at least on BDP-2 - because too many records sound overdetailed and thin. I've read once that overdetailed sound often means high level of jitter. This is a good explanation of Roon sound problems on BDP - because Roon endpoint causes lot of network activity and loads CPU higher than MPD. So BDP-2 hardware may be simply not powerful enough for good Roon sound quality. Perhaps BDP-Pi will sound much better with Roon - due to multicore processor.
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If sound quality is so system dependent than the whole solution is broken. I gave up on Roon at least on BDP-2 - because too many records sound overdetailed and thin. I've read once that overdetailed sound often means high level of jitter. This is a good explanation of Roon sound problems on BDP - because Roon endpoint causes lot of network activity and loads CPU higher than MPD. So BDP-2 hardware may be simply not powerful enough for good Roon sound quality. Perhaps BDP-Pi will sound much better with Roon - due to multicore processor.
I may be wrong on this but the BDP-2 is more than capable of running Roon because it is just interfacing with it. The Roon software is running on its own server. I will ask Chris to elaborate.
james
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I may be wrong on this but the BDP-2 is ore than capable of running Roon because it is just interfacing with it. The Roon software is running on its own server. I will ask Chris to elaborate.
james
Here is what Roon said about BDP1:
"The BDP-1, in particular, is somewhat unique among Roon Ready devices: it uses a rather primitive embedded x86 CPU7. It is cache poor, and fairly archaic in its approaches to branch prediction, out-of-order execution, etc. It does have MMX, though. This combination of tradeoffs would make a workload like RAAT (primarily protocol unpacking, interpreting dynamic network protocol, packet reassembly) more challenging for that CPU than a workload like FLAC->ALSA (MMX and memcpy)."
I think BDP-2 is much better of course, but its single core processor really looks archaic for today too. Bryston should consider upgrading BDP-2 devices to more powerful modern multicore ARM processor.
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Here is what Roon said about BDP1:
"The BDP-1, in particular, is somewhat unique among Roon Ready devices: it uses a rather primitive embedded x86 CPU7. It is cache poor, and fairly archaic in its approaches to branch prediction, out-of-order execution, etc. It does have MMX, though. This combination of tradeoffs would make a workload like RAAT (primarily protocol unpacking, interpreting dynamic network protocol, packet reassembly) more challenging for that CPU than a workload like FLAC->ALSA (MMX and memcpy)."
I think BDP-2 is much better of course, but its single core processor really looks archaic for today too. Bryston should consider upgrading BDP-2 devices to more powerful modern multicore ARM processor.
Ok thanks - I have no issues with Roon in my 3 systems so I am a little surprised by this.
james
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Havn't had an issue with either models and we do have a quad core arm version of the product and all three models have been tested and certified by Roon with the only limitation that the bdp-1 be limited to dsd64.
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Havn't had an issue with either models and we do have a quad core arm version of the product and all three models have been tested and certified by Roon with the only limitation that the bdp-1 be limited to dsd64.
What is quad core arm version? Is it BDP-Pi or some upgrade of BDP-2 ?
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If sound quality is so system dependent than the whole solution is broken. I gave up on Roon at least on BDP-2 - because too many records sound overdetailed and thin. I've read once that overdetailed sound often means high level of jitter. This is a good explanation of Roon sound problems on BDP - because Roon endpoint causes lot of network activity and loads CPU higher than MPD. So BDP-2 hardware may be simply not powerful enough for good Roon sound quality. Perhaps BDP-Pi will sound much better with Roon - due to multicore processor.
My sound with Roon is the reverse. MPD has grainy digital sound, when compared to Roon. My set up has the NAS and router sitting on a Synergistic Research Tranquility Base and I use a complete run of Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable. I only play WAV 16 or 24bit files. This set up gives sound to compete with my vinyl rig. If the problem is hardware, I will have to look at another solution for skips and dropouts. Maybe take the BDP-1 out of the set up.
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My sound with Roon is the reverse. MPD has grainy digital sound, when compared to Roon. My set up has the NAS and router sitting on a Synergistic Research Tranquility Base and I use a complete run of Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable. I only play WAV 16 or 24bit files. This set up gives sound to compete with my vinyl rig. If the problem is hardware, I will have to look at another solution for skips and dropouts. Maybe take the BDP-1 out of the set up.
I think that you problem is NAS. Roon core is quite heavyweight and requires really powerful NAS - QNAP TVS-471. Read explanation here http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS
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Here is what Roon said about BDP1:
...
That statement from Brian at Roon was in response to a posting I made on the topic of Roon sound quality vs. MPD and why does the RAAT app use as much CPU as it does on the BDP-1, give that Roon is off-loading all of the audio file processing to the Roon Server on another machine.
I have gone back to a USB attached, self-powered SSD drive (Samsung EVO 1TB w/ an external enclosure that is low power - it all runs easily from the 0.5a available from the lower-back USB port).
I was having drop-outs with Roon, but since updating to the latest BETA builds on the BDP-1, nothing - not a single hiccup - although I don't know if Bryston made any Roon changes in the newest BETA builds.
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although I don't know if Bryston made any Roon changes in the newest BETA builds.
Not a thing
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I think that you problem is NAS. Roon core is quite heavyweight and requires really powerful NAS - QNAP TVS-471. Read explanation here http://kb.roonlabs.com/Roon_Server_on_NAS
My NAS is only 32 bit processor. This means I will have to get a more powerful NAS to operate Roon without skips. This makes Roon too expensive. More powerful NAS are quite expensive. I'd be better off improving my sound by buying a better digital cable. I already have one on order at the moment. I'll wait and see what improvements that brings.
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My NAS is only 32 bit processor. This means I will have to get a more powerful NAS to operate Roon without skips. This makes Roon too expensive. More powerful NAS are quite expensive. I'd be better off improving my sound by buying a better digital cable. I already have one on order at the moment. I'll wait and see what improvements that brings.
Consider buying a Mac Mini, instead of an expensive NAS, if you are committed to Roon. Look at eBay - great deals - and you can put your music on a cheap USB drive on the Mac Mini.
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Or an Intel NUC for Windows. It can double as a file server, Plex server, etc
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Havn't had an issue with either models and we do have a quad core arm version of the product and all three models have been tested and certified by Roon with the only limitation that the bdp-1 be limited to dsd64.
Chris, could you please reveal what is quad core arm version? Do you really plan upgrade of BDP-2?
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We have announced, sell/sold three products
BDP-1, the slowest
BDP-Pi, uses a quad core arm and is the cheapest
BDP-2, the fastest and highest performing
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Consider buying a Mac Mini, instead of an expensive NAS, if you are committed to Roon. Look at eBay - great deals - and you can put your music on a cheap USB drive on the Mac Mini.
MPD is too flat and digital when compared to Roon. I can't go back to it. The future of my music storage will be on NAS so I may as well invest in a NAS as recommended by Roon. This will also hold me in good stead when using other software like JRiver, which also need powerful NAS. Those who have tried less powerful NAS drives have failed. There are no short cuts. The only way you can get away with using a standard NAS is if you process the file via a computer and connect via a USB. My ethernet sound is better than the USB and HDD sound.
As far as I can see, the only ones who have managed to get Roon to work via BDP is when files are located on a connected HDD or computer. All those playing off a NAS have had trouble because standard NAS have weak processors.
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MPD is too flat and digital when compared to Roon. I can't go back to it. The future of my music storage will be on NAS so I may as well invest in a NAS as recommended by Roon. This will also hold me in good stead when using other software like JRiver, which also need powerful NAS. Those who have tried less powerful NAS drives have failed. There are no short cuts. The only way you can get away with using a standard NAS is if you process the file via a computer and connect via a USB. My ethernet sound is better than the USB and HDD sound.
As far as I can see, the only ones who have managed to get Roon to work via BDP is when files are located on a connected HDD or computer. All those playing off a NAS have had trouble because standard NAS have weak processors.
I have quite opposite impressions. Roon via BDP1 sounds flat and digital compared to MPD (source is NAS WD Mybook).
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:duel:
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touché
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More like
:eating popcorn:
(what happened to that emoticon?? Can't find it here)
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I have quite opposite impressions. Roon via BDP1 sounds flat and digital compared to MPD (source is NAS WD Mybook).
What ethernet cable are you using? In any case there is no right or wrong answer. It's whatever works in your system. Generic ethernet cable makes the BDP1 sound muddy in mine.
In my system Roon raises the bar above all other digital set ups. I'm not a Roon fan. I tried it with a cynically view. I think it is too expensive. Roon has the capacity to put bloom into digital sound, and there are not too many digital systems I have heard which have bloom. That the BDP1 can do that with Roon tells me it is good hardware coupled with good software. Half the quality of digital sound is in software.
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The latest upgrade greatly improves the sound of the BDP-1 with or without Roon. I took the opportunity to listen to the MPD while the new NAS is being ordered and the sound via MPD is definitely a lot better than what it used to be. In fact the sound of the BDP-1 seems to get better with each upgrade. Compared to the early sound the latest upgrade makes the sound much more fluid and clean, with real bloom. But you must use a decent digital interconnect to link it to the DAC. A lesser digital cable will result in disappointing sound.
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sigh :rules: :sleep:
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Hi All,
I have just converted my Mpad set-up to Roon. Overall the sound quality with my set-up has gone backwards for my tastes. Imaging, layering and the ability to draw you into the music the way Mpad does is simply not there.
I have my SSD connected to my PC via USB3.0, Room 64 bit Core installed on my pc, control loaded on my Ipad. Network is wired. PC is 6th generation i5 processor, 12 G of RAMso very current.
There was only one short drop out over 10 or 12 songs that I played a half hour into the and I'll associate that with initial indexing.
Has anyone confirmed that the SQ of a track improves after the system has had a chance to complete a pass of the audio analysis?
Are there any other hardware or software changes that one can make to improve Roon SQ that may be relevant to my set-up?
Gary
I just realized that I didn't add any of the relevant components to the posting - BDP-2 and BDA-2 AES/EBU connection between devices.
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I didn't end up using Roon after all. MPD sounded better.
At first I thought it was my network that made the Roon sound very precise in imaging but somehow very 2D. Howver, it retained the same sound when I sent the audio via USB to my DAC, bypassing the network from the equation. Literally no other transport source or software program flattened the image to the extent that Roon did.
Perhaps, I'll take another crack at Roon next year or the year after and see if anything changes.
Hey, Bryston. You got any more of those free trials. :D
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I didn't end up using Roon after all. MPD sounded better.
At first I thought it was my network that made the Roon sound very precise in imaging but somehow very 2D. Howver, it retained the same sound when I sent the audio via USB to my DAC, bypassing the network from the equation. Literally no other transport source or software program flattened the image to the extent that Roon did.
Perhaps, I'll take another crack at Roon next year or the year after and see if anything changes.
Hey, Bryston. You got any more of those free trials. :D
What's on the other end of that USB cable? BDP-2? Or a laptop? Or?
I'm still amazed at the difference in sound. What really kills me is that I don't have a single recording that I got to hear live, so I really don't know for sure how they are supposed to sound. I only know what I PREFER (which is just opinion, not fact). I'd love to figure out what component is causing the difference. One (or both) of them do not sound like the original and/or how the artist/mixer intended.
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What's on the other end of that USB cable? BDP-2? Or a laptop? Or?
I'm still amazed at the difference in sound. What really kills me is that I don't have a single recording that I got to hear live, so I really don't know for sure how they are supposed to sound. I only know what I PREFER (which is just opinion, not fact). I'd love to figure out what component is causing the difference. One (or both) of them do not sound like the original and/or how the artist/mixer intended.
The Macbook Pro sent USB directly to the DAC. The BDP-1 connected by network sent to DAC via AES. I even had my headphones plugged directly to the Macbook Pro's headphone output and running Roon. Regardless of the device used, or transfer method, Roon's sound engine sounded flatter. It made the HD 800's pancaked. If you can't get depth from the HD 800, then you know something is wrong.
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Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, the HD800's are quite nice. What amp are you using with then? I love my BHA-1. The only thing I would change or add to that amp would be the ability to control it from remote.
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Gary, my setup is similar to yours, I have the bdp-2 connected to a bda-3 via aes/ebu. I switched to Roon from Mpd and am really enjoying the quality of the sound as well as the Roon interface. I have Roon core running on a Synology NAS and controller on my ipad. Both the NAS and the bdp-2 are connected to a gigabit switch. I initially had a 10/100 hub and there was a noticeable difference when I changed to a gigabit switch. I do like the Roon sound as it is a bit more laid back in my opinion. When I compared Roon to Mpd months ago I felt the Mpd had a slight edge in clarity but Mpd sounded a bit brighter and up front. Both had great 3d imaging, and separation of instruments. I prefer a more laid back and a softer sound which I get via Roon. The interface is great as well.
Thx
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Gary, my setup is similar to yours, I have the bdp-2 connected to a bda-3 via aes/ebu. I switched to Roon from Mpd and am really enjoying the quality of the sound as well as the Roon interface. I have Roon core running on a Synology NAS and controller on my ipad. Both the NAS and the bdp-2 are connected to a gigabit switch. I initially had a 10/100 hub and there was a noticeable difference when I changed to a gigabit switch. I do like the Roon sound as it is a bit more laid back in my opinion. When I compared Roon to Mpd months ago I felt the Mpd had a slight edge in clarity but Mpd sounded a bit brighter and up front. Both had great 3d imaging, and separation of instruments. I prefer a more laid back and a softer sound which I get via Roon. The interface is great as well.
Thx
Thanks tie_breaker
I also have a gigibit switch. I don't see any comparisons between a core running on a NAS or game class PC.
Could this be an issue?
Thanks
//
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I don't think so, your PC is more powerful then the NAS I am using.
Thx
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I don't think so, your PC is more powerful then the NAS I am using.
Thx
I switched my system back to MPD and listened again this am. Its not even close.
In my opinion - Roon and any other system that relocates the files themselves away from the player and on a network has work to do to preserve how the package is delivered to the player.
Gary
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I performed thorough listening on BDP-2 @ Juli using several network players including Roon, Squeezelite and MPD DLNA(with umpdcli front-end). In short - they all sound much worse then plain MPD with local files on SSD with obvious soundstage issues - why being absolutely bitperfect. And as I said before soundstage issues often mean jitter. I don't know exact cause of this fault but I feel this may be related to OS settings or hardware architecture. Or may be poor software optimization for this particular hardware. In contrast Roon sounds absolutely perfect on some other network player with multicore processor.
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I performed thorough listening on BDP-2 @ Juli using several network players including Roon, Squeezelite and MPD DLNA(with umpdcli front-end). In short - they all sound much worse then plain MPD with local files on SSD with obvious soundstage issues - why being absolutely bitperfect. And as I said before soundstage issues often mean jitter. I don't know exact cause of this fault but I feel this may be related to OS settings or hardware architecture. Or may be poor software optimization for this particular hardware. In contrast Roon sounds absolutely perfect on some other network player with multicore processor.
Do you make the same statement about MPD with files on a NAS device? Just curious and thanks in advance.
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Do you make the same statement about MPD with files on a NAS device? Just curious and thanks in advance.
It sounds better than DLNA but a bit worse than SSD. Note that network traffic with DLNA is larger then simply fetching FLACs from NAS. And Jriver server has all settings to deliver audio via DLNA as WAVs. So this is much more i/o than with NAS.
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Gary, my setup is similar to yours, I have the bdp-2 connected to a bda-3 via aes/ebu. I switched to Roon from Mpd and am really enjoying the quality of the sound as well as the Roon interface. I have Roon core running on a Synology NAS and controller on my ipad. Both the NAS and the bdp-2 are connected to a gigabit switch. I initially had a 10/100 hub and there was a noticeable difference when I changed to a gigabit switch. I do like the Roon sound as it is a bit more laid back in my opinion. When I compared Roon to Mpd months ago I felt the Mpd had a slight edge in clarity but Mpd sounded a bit brighter and up front. Both had great 3d imaging, and separation of instruments. I prefer a more laid back and a softer sound which I get via Roon. The interface is great as well.
Thx
Roon sounds more laid back because it has more bloom. This gives the sound a more natural 3D presentation. MPD still sounds good but has less detail because it does not have bloom. Lack of bloom makes the sound more hifi and flatter. Irony is, removal of detail results in hifi sound which seems more detailed because transients are etched. This makes people think they are getting more detail. Sound should have body and sound relaxed.
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Roon sounds more laid back because it has more bloom. This gives the sound a more natural 3D presentation. MPD still sounds good but has less detail because it does not have bloom. Lack of bloom makes the sound more hifi and flatter. Irony is, removal of detail results in hifi sound which seems more detailed because transients are etched. This makes people think they are getting more detail. Sound should have body and sound relaxed.
Generichs
Can one make these assumptions about Roon across different systems?
It looks like people who chimed in have very different results.
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Generichs
Can one make these assumptions about Roon across different systems?
It looks like people who chimed in have very different results.
I can only comment on what I hear in my system and from my experience when hearing other audiophiles' systems. My system has been auditioned by audio reviewers, so I know there are no quirks/oddities. The Bryston BDP-1 & 2 should be used in quality systems to fully realize their potential. This is a high resolution component capable of delivering a room full of musical bloom. You do need to link it to the DAC with a quality digital cable. I use Audioquest Diamond. I originally used a 20yr old digital cable and achieved disappointing results.
My original comment was posted in support of what Gary heard in his system. I thought his comment was almost apologetic about the sound he heard and liked. There seems to be trolling of people who say anything favorable about Roon sound on this site.
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It sounds better than DLNA but a bit worse than SSD. Note that network traffic with DLNA is larger then simply fetching FLACs from NAS. And Jriver server has all settings to deliver audio via DLNA as WAVs. So this is much more i/o than with NAS.
You know what, Vlad? You are dead on with that statement. Locally attached SSD with MPD sounds best. I am finished experimenting and am back to my collection on a Samsung EVO 1TB SSD. Powers off of the lower, rear port just fine on my BDP-1.
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You know what, Vlad? You are dead on with that statement. Locally attached SSD with MPD sounds best. I am finished experimenting and am back to my collection on a Samsung EVO 1TB SSD. Powers off of the lower, rear port just fine on my BDP-1.
It's your choise :) Hope you are ok with controlling Bdp via semi-dead MPAD or other solutions. I'm still addicted to network playback and bought one year Roon subscription, so I'm listening other player now.
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It's your choise :) Hope you are ok with controlling Bdp via semi-dead MPAD or other solutions. I'm still addicted to network playback and bought one year Roon subscription, so I'm listening other player now.
I am on my second year for Roon... I switch back-and-forth, between MPD and Roon, depending on whether I am listening to newly downloaded/ripped music or I am exploring my library with Tidal.
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I think Roon is too expensive. I tried to set up Audirvana but could not get the trial download to work. Does Audirvana work with the BDP-1?
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I think Roon is too expensive. I tried to set up Audirvana but could not get the trial download to work. Does Audirvana work with the BDP-1?
Nope.
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FYI ... review of upcoming features for Roon 1.3. An impressive list.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/coming-over-the-hill-the-monstrous-roon-1-3/ (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/01/coming-over-the-hill-the-monstrous-roon-1-3/)
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BETA
S2.33 2017-04-07
...
S2.33 2017-04-05
Roon Ready
Fixed Bryston Transport Plugin
Updated Roon Ready sources to today release
S2.33 2017-04-04
Roon Ready
Updated Roon Ready sources
Should reduce resource usage
Audio Devices, made BDP-Pi and BDP-3 audio device selection page more user friendly
You know what else it does? It improves the sound in Roon Ready mode.
I've been doing a lot of back-and-forth listening between MPD + USB Flash drives and Roon from my ethernet connected Mac Book Pro. I would say that the sound quality between the two modes is now indistinguishable (which is not the case with the current, stable release, IMO).
Nice work, Bryston.
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You know what else it does? It improves the sound in Roon Ready mode.
I've been doing a lot of back-and-forth listening between MPD + USB Flash drives and Roon from my ethernet connected Mac Book Pro. I would say that the sound quality between the two modes is now indistinguishable (which is not the case with the current, stable release, IMO).
Nice work, Bryston.
Well looks like I should remove dust from my BDP-2 and try to listen it with Roon again. I wonder why it took so long to update Roon Ready code? In comparison I've got almost a dozen of Roon Ready updates for Sonore Microrendu since November and very satisfied with sound.
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Well looks like I should remove dust from my BDP-2 and try to listen it with Roon again. I wonder why it took so long to update Roon Ready code? In comparison I've got almost a dozen of Roon Ready updates for Sonore Microrendu since November and very satisfied with sound.
Do report back on how you think it sounds.
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Do report back on how you think it sounds.
I've listened Roon with new beta firmware. Probably it's better than before but soundstage still has some flatness. Switched back and forth with microrendu and the difference is obvious - BDP-2 is not a winner unfortunately. May be this depends on style of music you are listening. I prefer hard rock and heavy metal and on BDP-2 kick drum localization is wrong - it sounds like sticked to speakers. On microrendu it sounds straight from centre of soundstage - as it should be. Note that I used USB inputs on my BDA-3 with both sources. Btw BDA-3 is a significant improvement for USB playback over BDA-2 and sounds amazing with microrendu.
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I've listened Roon with new beta firmware. Probably it's better than before but soundstage still has some flatness. Switched back and forth with microrendu and the difference is obvious - BDP-2 is not a winner unfortunately. May be this depends on style of music you are listening. I prefer hard rock and heavy metal and on BDP-2 kick drum localisation is wrong - it sounds like sticked to speakers. On microrendu it sounds straight from centre of soundstage - as it should be. Note that I used USB inputs on my BDA-3 with both sources. Btw BDA-3 is a significant improvement for USB playback over BDA-2 and sounds amazing with microrendu.
Just curious... do you prefer the USB output from the BDP-2 vs. the sound card (I recall you writing earlier that you are still on the ESI Juli@).
I've tried using USB out from my BDP-1 into my Bel Canto REFLink and really thought there was an improved sound (less jitter and noise?), but all this switching back and forth and I'm not sure I can trust my own ears, anymore, unless the change is significant.
Thanks for trying your BDP-2 with the new F/W and sharing your impressions.
EDIT: oh, and are you using any of the Roon DSP modes or passing straight through to the BDP?
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No, I don't use Roon DSP and have software volume switched off - I prefer to stay bit perfect. With BDA-3 I prefer USB output of BDP-2 but this doesn't change sound signature of Roon Ready - it has flat soundstage either with AES or USB. In your case I don't think that Bel Canto REFLink will make any significant difference. I tried many USB sources and USB accessories and can tell you that nothing beats a good USB source (not PC / Laptop of course) connected straight to the USB input of the DAC. No USB converter or purifier will make a weak source sounding great. But it's still unclear for me how software quality and resource usage influence USB playback. In theory async USB is free from jitter but looks that soundstage problems I mentioned are related to jitter.
Just curious... do you prefer the USB output from the BDP-2 vs. the sound card (I recall you writing earlier that you are still on the ESI Juli@).
I've tried using USB out from my BDP-1 into my Bel Canto REFLink and really thought there was an improved sound (less jitter and noise?), but all this switching back and forth and I'm not sure I can trust my own ears, anymore, unless the change is significant.
Thanks for trying your BDP-2 with the new F/W and sharing your impressions.
EDIT: oh, and are you using any of the Roon DSP modes or passing straight through to the BDP?
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Krutsch - Any further improvements on Roon's SQ?
To James and others: Is there a way I can take an ethernet cable and connect it directly from my iMac's ethernet port to BDP-1's ethernet port directly and make it work?
I previously used a Powerline adaptor as the room was quite far from the modem/router. So then I switched over to an offline/closed router setup. It's good enough for Manic Moose control, but no internet radio or any such thing.
It looks like iMac -> Cisco Router -> BDP-1.
Again, the Cisco Router doesn't have internet on it. It's just it's own thing.
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Krutsch - Any further improvements on Roon's SQ?
...
I abandoned TIDAL in favor of Spotify. My wife, daughter and I have our own accounts and for 14.95/month we all get premium. Spotify's playlists are user curated and they wipe the floor with TIDAL's editorial staff curated playlists, so I canceled my TIDAL account.
I have Sonos speakers sprinkled throughout my house and that's what my family uses - they want me to keep my audiophile nonsense on my desk and away from them. Spotify Connect w/ their app into the Sonos speakers is great user experience.
Without TIDAL, Roon lost a lot of its shine for me. I am tired correcting tagging differences between my library and Roon's use of AllMusic.com's database. I am also sick of Roon's "Paw Masher" UI - I was vocal about this on their user forums, even triggering the moderators to run a poll to see who else wanted a change made to the playback UI. Fully half of their user base hates the Paw Masher, but they won't change anything.
Anyway... I am enjoying saving $20/month from TIDAL + $100/year from Roon.
I am exclusively using MPD playback on the BDP-1 w/ Soundirok. With USB sticks holding my entire FLAC library, it's the best sound, IMO.
For streaming services, I have a Sonos Connect sitting on top of my BDP-1 that runs through a Wyred4Sound Remedy to clean-up the S/PDIF TOSLINK output into my DAC.
Honestly, 320 Mbps Ogg files from Spotify sound just great for previewing new music and if I really like something, I buy/rip the CD or download from HDTracks. Same with Amazon Prime music and Sirius XM streaming.
Sorry for the TL;DR response...
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I abandoned TIDAL in favor of Spotify. My wife, daughter and I have our own accounts and for 14.95/month we all get premium. Spotify's playlists are user curated and they wipe the floor with TIDAL's editorial staff curated playlists, so I canceled my TIDAL account.
I feel the same way about TIDAL every time I tried it. I've had Spotify Premium for a few years and will be sticking with that. I also find their playlists or other users playlist to work very well with my taste. It makes sense and doesn't give me any problems on iOS or Mac.
I have Sonos speakers sprinkled throughout my house and that's what my family uses - they want me to keep my audiophile nonsense on my desk and away from them. Spotify Connect w/ their app into the Sonos speakers is great user experience.
I hear you on the family wanting to keep the audio stuff away. They have never been remotely interested in headphones. Built in speakers on most devices is fine. Although, they do enjoy the HR 824 Mk1s in a midfield setup for the basement setup. It can get loud and can go deep. Plus, it has limiters so I don't have to worry too much. I feed it via Emotiva DC-1 and have kept it around because they have finally figured out how to use the remote. It's a convenient setup. I keep the Amphion and Bryston gear for myself at the desktop.
I think you should seriously consider a pair of nearfields. Something like a 5-6 inch that won't be too problematic acoustically and can play quite well at low levels without needing to be put too apart. Doesn't headphone get fatiguing after a while?
Without TIDAL, Roon lost a lot of its shine for me. I am tired correcting tagging differences between my library and Roon's use of AllMusic.com's database. I am also sick of Roon's "Paw Masher" UI - I was vocal about this on their user forums, even triggering the moderators to run a poll to see who else wanted a change made to the playback UI. Fully half of their user base hates the Paw Masher, but they won't change anything.
Anyway... I am enjoying saving $20/month from TIDAL + $100/year from Roon.
I went on their site after a long time and it was the same stuff. Sound quality differences between Roon and JRiver/Amarra/Audirvana Plus. I don't think the issues have been fully ironed out yet?
I am exclusively using MPD playback on the BDP-1 w/ Soundirok. With USB sticks holding my entire FLAC library, it's the best sound, IMO.
I am going to give FLAC another shot, especially in streaming from router or even with attached storage, but this time will try to compress it as much as possible. I have more tests to run on BDP and my 2009 iMac and my Retina SSD i7 Macbook Pro. The results between compressed FLAC vs. WAV/AIFF can be different based on CPU decoding of FLAC, but larger size and IO of WAV. It is possible that a particular computer might benefit from one format over the other. There seems to be a tradeoff going on there, perhaps even sonically. There is some information out there, but you definitely have to sort through the same-old regurgitated dialogue.
I bought Soundirok last night. I have to figure out how to set that up with either WAV/AIFF/FLAC. One thing I'm happy that I'm certain about is that I am not going to be using ALAC.
Either with software or hardware going forward, I'm definitely going to try to keep things as simple as possible.
For streaming services, I have a Sonos Connect sitting on top of my BDP-1 that runs through a Wyred4Sound Remedy to clean-up the S/PDIF TOSLINK output into my DAC.
Honestly, 320 Mbps Ogg files from Spotify sound just great for previewing new music and if I really like something, I buy/rip the CD or download from HDTracks. Same with Amazon Prime music and Sirius XM streaming.
Sorry for the TL;DR response...
Spotify is the best for previewing. I'll often put playlists or albums in offline and listen when out. Honestly, as much as I get picky about SQ, when I know I'm not after the best possible SQ, Spotify is just fine to get lost with in the music. The only problem I've run into is that same albums are only available in remastered or reissues and they can be compressed and loud sounding.
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I'm trying out Tidal HiFi from within Roon on a BPD-1, which feeds a PS Audio DirectStream DAC.
Should the "passthrough MQA" be checked or not? The streaming "quality" is set at HiFi/Masters.
Only asking because while ripped music sounds great via Roon to the BDP, Tidal is kind of underwhelming (given all the hype).
Thanks.
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I abandoned TIDAL in favor of Spotify. My wife, daughter and I have our own accounts and for 14.95/month we all get premium. Spotify's playlists are user curated and they wipe the floor with TIDAL's editorial staff curated playlists, so I canceled my TIDAL account.
...
Without TIDAL, Roon lost a lot of its shine for me. I am tired correcting tagging differences between my library and Roon's use of the AllMusic's database. I am also sick of Roon's "Paw Masher" UI - I was vocal about this on their user forums, even triggering the moderators to run a poll to see who else wanted a change made to the playback UI. Fully half of their user base hates the Paw Masher, but they won't change anything.
...
Well, what a difference a couple of months makes. My cell provider (Sprint) invested in TIDAL and offered their customers a free 6 month subscription. So, I signed back-up with TIDAL ...and... Roon (free trial).
Roon has fixed the Paw Masher nonsense, based on the poll :lol: ...and the new UI is really quite an improvement. The other thing Roon did was offer fine grained control over how your library is imported/indexed into Roon's database. So, you don't have to fight with AllMusic.com's database on what genre or cover art should be used for your carefully tagged albums.
Anyway, worlds of difference with the latest version of Roon, with respect to flexibility and usability. And, of course, it sounds great with the BDP-1 in Roon Ready mode.
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I'm on Roon trial again. 60 days and counting down. Really looking forward to trying it with the BDP-1 via the upcoming USB Wifi Dongle. I hope I can get it before I run out.
Roon Ready with iMac and powerline adapters is a step below what I'm used to with MPD + external powered drive + Jitterbug. I want to try and filter the wifi dongle with the Jitterbug.
I can only think that the way my network is setup and use of the powerline adapters is messing with the sound. No dropouts or anything like that. Solid connection. Although, I think it sounds better than previous times. Hard to remember though.
I would really like to use Roon. It makes it so much easier and funner to connect with the music.
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Hi Folks,
For those using ROON with their Bryston BDP Digital players we will be showing how the BDP will integrate with such products as Crestron, Control4 and Remote Technologies Incorporated.
Come say hello at Booth 5803 if you are attending CEDIA 2017.
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Roon has fixed the Paw Masher nonsense, based on the poll :lol: ...and the new UI is really quite an improvement. The other thing Roon did was offer fine grained control over how your library is imported/indexed into Roon's database. So, you don't have to fight with AllMusic.com's database on what genre or cover art should be used for your carefully tagged albums.
Anyway, worlds of difference with the latest version of Roon, with respect to flexibility and usability. And, of course, it sounds great with the BDP-1 in Roon Ready mode.
Sounds great, love to check the latest version. Is there a version history somewhere on the Roon site? Ive checked but can't find it, and no announcement of the features you mention unfortunately. Never really worked out this Paw Masher issue, other than Roon needing extra clicks for simply playing a file?
Cheers,
Marius
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Hi Folks,
This new ROON feature is for those of you installing whole home audio systems who need integrated control over each zone and can take advantage of ROON's new partnerships with control companies to install Bryston BDPs in some of those zones so you can have bit perfect high resolution sound in key zones while you continue to use less quality audio elsewhere in the house.
Roon leverages their unique software and our Bryston world class hardware (BDP) to enable whole home audio with a single library with multiple streams in multiple zones using a wide variety of hardware ranging from inexpensive typical systems like Sonos for non sound quality critical rooms to world class audio oasis built with Bryston.
Gary Dayton
Bryston Ltd.
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UPDATE
Software - Feels more intuitive to use than last year and the organization and music continuation has also improved. Clicking on tracks in the lists and getting subsequent tracks to automatically add to the list finally works like I want it to. WIN.
Hardware - I initially added both my BDP-1 and my DAC directly into the same zones. That way I could toggle with USB for iMac and AES for BDP-1 on the Dangerous Source. This was with Powerline adapter feeding BDP-1. It sounded bad, infact slightly worse than the USB output from the iMac that was running the Core. Certainly worse than MPD.
So I moved the BDP-1 and my Dangerous Source with it's LPS to the room with the modem/router and connected it directly to the BDP-1. Took my HD 800 with it. The iMac with Core was still in another room and sending via Wifi. FINALLY, Roon sounded amazing. It was perfect. It was sounding better than MPD with the portable drive connected to it. Although, I feel if I used MPD with NAS and no drives attached, it would sound equal.
Conclusions
- Roon is amazing when done right. Miles ahead of Manic Moose.
- The BDP-1 doesn't care if it's plugged into the Torus or the wall or even a cheap strip with a bunch of switching supplies next to it.
- The BDP-1 is ABSOLUTELY hyper sensitive to what it's fed with. It's super sensitive to the types of media storage (hard drives portable and external, quality of ethernet) and/or current draw.
- I think BDP-1 is at its best when used with good ethernet. No drives attached to it directly. Although, USB hubs can improve this with tweaking, but still can get costly and the end game might not be there even after.
- Powerline adapters SUCK! Do not let these things make direct contact with the BDP-1.
Help Needed!
Running ethernet to the room would obviously be the best method to fix my current problem. However, that seems unlikely for now. So I'm thinking for now adding those fiber media converters that go ethernet -> optical -> ethernet. Anyone have experiences with those in either the BDP-1 or other rigs?
James, will the BDP-1 have any problems with these converters? Any compatibility issues I should look out for? No problem with using the Gigabit models with the BDP-1, or do I have to look specifically for the 10/100?
Next up, thinking of getting rid of the Powerline adapters and instead getting some kind of wireless bridge or access point that can feed those fiber converters and possibly the iMac. These Powerline adapters make an annoying high frequency whine. Any recommendation on models for either the media fiber or wireless bridge?
Thanks!
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James, will the BDP-1 have any problems with these converters? Any compatibility issues I should look out for? No problem with using the Gigabit models with the BDP-1, or do I have to look specifically for the 10/100?
Thats a Chris question for sure.
james
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James, will the BDP-1 have any problems with these converters? Any compatibility issues I should look out for? No problem with using the Gigabit models with the BDP-1, or do I have to look specifically for the 10/100?
Thats a Chris question for sure.
james
Please let him know. I might even try today to get something if he can get back.
Also, Chris, if you know of a decent wireless bridge / access point that can receive WIFI and output ethernet connection, I'd love to know. My modem/router is class AC and runs both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz. I figured I'd ask Bryston since you guys are local. I'm in Mississauga. Thanks.
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You shouldn't use such a broad brush to paint Powerline adapters as useless.
The Powerline adapters CAN be useful depending on how you use them. If you use them to feed the source signal (content) via a LAN from a computer or NAS, you may experience issues depending on the bandwidth of the adapters or the performance of your network. Certainly, using hardwired Ethernet is a way better route, but not always practical. Given a robust, high-performance network or a completely wired network, NAS is an ideal solution for feeding content to the BDP. In the real world, that's not always feasible and you may have to connect your source to the BDP locally.
On the other hand, if the content IS locally attached to the BDP (internal or external) and you only use the Powerline adapters to CONTROL it, the performance can be quite acceptable. You do get the odd hiccup, but if running cable (electrical or optical) directly is not an option then the Powerlines can be used to solve this problem.
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You shouldn't use such a broad brush to paint Powerline adapters as useless.
The Powerline adapters CAN be useful depending on how you use them. If you use them to feed the source signal (content) via a LAN from a computer or NAS, you may experience issues depending on the bandwidth of the adapters or the performance of your network. Certainly, using hardwired Ethernet is a way better route, but not always practical. Given a robust, high-performance network or a completely wired network, NAS is an ideal solution for feeding content to the BDP. In the real world, that's not always feasible and you may have to connect your source to the BDP locally.
On the other hand, if the content IS locally attached to the BDP (internal or external) and you only use the Powerline adapters to CONTROL it, the performance can be quite acceptable. You do get the odd hiccup, but if running cable (electrical or optical) directly is not an option then the Powerlines can be used to solve this problem.
I didn't say they are useless. They just kinda suck.
I've used it both to transmit data to the BDP-1 like Roon, and even used it previously to control the BDP-1 and its locally attached storage. Speed has never been the problem in either use. I can do 24 bit WAVs with no problem. The problem has always been the noise. They mess with other devices like my Macbook Pro and when I'm using sensitive single ended phones straight out the headphone jack. You can hear the noise on the headphones without any music playing. Unplug the adapters, and the noise is gone. I'm roughly 6-8 feet away from the Powerline adapter.
So they are useful, but not without consequences.
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Setup at 2017 CEDIA with ROON
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168153)
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UPDATE x 2
Got rid of the Powerlines completely. That's done with for now. Found another solution and perhaps improved upon it.
First - The goal was to only connect the BDP-1 with the iMac. I used the spare Linksys E3000 as an access point. I don't need internet on it, so all I had plugged into it was the iMac and BDP-1. I disabled all its wireless stuff and additional media storage stuff. It sounded good, but it still felt like it wasn't quite as good as the sound I had when I had it connected to the other newer router in the non-audio room that I mentioned previously. The margin was small so it could easily be in my head. Still much better than ethernet adapters.
Improvement - I added a D-Link DGS-1005 Gigabit switch that I had lying around to the router. Nothing else connected to the router, only the switch. I then connected both the iMac and BDP-1 to that switch. This way the data did not have to pass through the router at all. I even confirmed it by removing the router and it was all working on its own. It sounded more relaxed this way and holographic like MPD with hard drives at its best and perhaps even improved. It feels there is less top end extension and air right now in comparison to any MPD configurations or with the router. However, this is more relaxing and involving than before. It immediately clicked. No sizzle to the sound. Perhaps that was just noise. The vocals are very liquid like.
No need for optical isolation. Don't have to worry about media storages and USBs and hubs.
I'd recommend trying this method if you have Roon or didn't like Roon the first around because it didn't sound like MPD. There were lot of comments like that last year, including from me. Disable everything on BDP except for Roon and make sure there is nothing connected to the BDP-1's ports. I got the idea from a couple of other forums. More discussion on Computer Audiophile, but there was this one discussion on PS Audio forum and it was very similar to Bryston BDP's context.
Next step: This switch is plastic and wasn't bought with audio in mind. I might consider getting a metal one and/or a LPS for the switch (either the new or existing). There are some "high-end" switches like from Aqvox that pay attention to the insides, but I'm trying to maximize everything to a reasonable point for cheap.
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I tried to emulate the Sonarworks EQ for HD 800 for Roon a few weeks back. I felt it was a good starting point and that I'd tweak it over time. It's actually working out nicely. Haven't felt the need to tweak it. Although, I'm sure it can be made better. Make sure to reduce the gain at the bottom. Enjoy.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169505)
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Hi,
I have bp-26 with internal dac and 4b3 and I would like to know:
If I am using mainly Spotify/Tidal, does my sound quality improve 1) just with bdp-3 and secondly 2) together with bda-3?
I think my internal dac can handle 96/24 bit resolution.
Thanks!
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Hi Salakavald, the answer is yes. I would start with the DAC. Then the player.
I also have an internal DAC in my BP25. when i integrated a BDA2 into the system, the improvement was immediately evident. night and day difference. hope this helps. TJ
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Thank You TJ-Sully!
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Display on my BDP-1 no longer updates during Roon playback.
If the machine was idle for a while, this means a blank display. If the display was saying "Roon Ready", it stays on that. No song information, at all.
S2.36 2017-10-06
Build: Manic Moose
MPD: 0.19.21 NEWS
Kernel: 3.16-0.bpo.2-486
COPYRIGHT BRYSTON LTD. 2010
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Its being looked into, transport controls
also appear to be effected.
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Its being looked into, transport controls
also appear to be effected.
This appears to be working now, so I am guessing this was a Roon issue, as I am on the stable release (S2.36 2017-10-06)
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The latest Roon 1.4 is a sonic treat with the BDP-1. Whatever optimizations they made to RAAT, it's taken things up a notch.
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I hate to say this, but you folks can Roon and Tidal all you want, but the best sonic experience from the BDPs is from importing the music from a CD and putting it on one of the USB drive inputs.
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I hate to say this, but you folks can Roon and Tidal all you want, but the best sonic experience from the BDPs is from importing the music from a CD and putting it on one of the USB drive inputs.
... using a flash drive :thumb:
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... using a flash drive :thumb:
True! 8) In fact, I find Tidal to be slightly better sounding than the best radio stations on the Bryston BDP-2. However, the best sound were those I imported myself from CDs with a close second best being hi res downloads from HD Tracks. I am not too impressed with hi res as it sounds louder but not necessarily better sounding; just different. Regular old 44.1/16 from CDs just sound more natural.
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No contest.
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Funny. Last night after over a month, I put a bunch of albums on a flash drive and used MPD with everything else disabled. I compared it to Roon 1.4 via my ethernet setup with the same albums. Both setups were running bit perfect. No DSP. I have paid attention to my ethernet setup with shielded cables around the gear and grounded linear power supplies, so that may be the reason.
Roon trounced MPD in every sonic aspect. The difference has never been this big. No need to strain to hear it.
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Funny. Last night after over a month, I put a bunch of albums on a flash drive and used MPD with everything else disabled. I compared it to Roon 1.4 via my ethernet setup with the same albums. Both setups were running bit perfect. No DSP. I have paid attention to my ethernet setup with shielded cables around the gear and grounded linear power supplies, so that may be the reason.
Roon trounced MPD in every sonic aspect. The difference has never been this big. No need to strain to hear it.
What device do you use to import your CDs and are you using flac, wav, aiff, which?
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What device do you use to import your CDs and are you using flac, wav, aiff, which?
With MPD, I'd use WAV.
With Roon, I use FLAC, since PCM is sent to BDP-1. Compressed or uncompressed doesn't matter anymore with Roon and BDP-1. It gets the same PCM.
Most of my stuff is digital download now. Even though I'm a Mac guy, I'd rip in bulk on my spare Windows laptop using Exact Audio Copy. There's good stuff on Mac as well. I use XLD for all the transcoding. The better the rips and metadata is on the original file, the better the experience on Roon.
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With MPD, I'd use WAV.
With Roon, I use FLAC, since PCM is sent to BDP-1. Compressed or uncompressed doesn't matter anymore with Roon and BDP-1. It gets the same PCM.
Most of my stuff is digital download now. Even though I'm a Mac guy, I'd rip in bulk on my spare Windows laptop using Exact Audio Copy. There's good stuff on Mac as well. I use XLD for all the transcoding. The better the rips and metadata is on the original file, the better the experience on Roon.
Are you importing CDs using wav? Or are you buying digital download in the wav format? Its hard to tell from your description.
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Are you importing CDs using wav? Or are you buying digital download in the wav format? Its hard to tell from your description.
Whether I rip or download, I always go with FLAC. That is my main and master library. For BDP and MPD use specifically, I used to maintain a duplicate WAV library that came from the FLAC library. I'd use XLD to do batch conversions. 2 hard drives - same music - just different format (FLAC vs WAV).
Since I've started using Roon with BDP-1, I no longer have the need for a WAV library. I just use my FLAC library and let Roon uncompress it to PCM before it sends to BDP-1.
If you're still confused:
Roon + BDP-1: Use FLAC, no need for WAV.
MPD + BDP-1: It's a tossup. Some don't hear any difference between FLAC and WAV. Others that do, generally prefer WAV. I went with WAV.
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Whether I rip or download, I always go with FLAC. That is my main and master library. For BDP and MPD use specifically, I used to maintain a duplicate WAV library that came from the FLAC library. I'd use XLD to do batch conversions. 2 hard drives - same music - just different format (FLAC vs WAV).
Since I've started using Roon with BDP-1, I no longer have the need for a WAV library. I just use my FLAC library and let Roon uncompress it to PCM before it sends to BDP-1.
If you're still confused:
Roon + BDP-1: Use FLAC, no need for WAV.
MPD + BDP-1: It's a tossup. Some don't hear any difference between FLAC and WAV. Others that do, generally prefer WAV. I went with WAV.
Your original comment was that Roon and Tidal trounces MPD on every sonic aspect. I tried to determine if your were importing your files from CD or if you are using downloads. I tried to find out if you were importing your CDs if you were using aiff, wav or flac or other means. You seem to be saying that you imported your music using one codec and make batch files using XLD which may be the problem. Your answers have not been explicit enough for me to determine why you say Roon MPD which no one concurs. But, regardless enjoy your Roon. You don't have to explain any further. :?
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Your original comment was that Roon and Tidal trounces MPD on every sonic aspect. I tried to determine if your were importing your files from CD or if you are using downloads. I tried to find out if you were importing your CDs if you were using aiff, wav or flac or other means. You seem to be saying that you imported your music using one codec and make batch files using XLD which may be the problem. Your answers have not been explicit enough for me to determine why you say Roon MPD which no one concurs. But, regardless enjoy your Roon. You don't have to explain any further. :?
Either I have been very unclear, or you simply do not understand how any of this works. :o
Whether I rip a CD or get a digital download, it does not matter as long as the information in the file is the same, meaning they are the same master on the CD and the download file. It's all 0 and 1 and easily verifiable.
Whenever I download from a store or rip a CD, the format is always FLAC (lossless but compressed).
You should know that both WAV and FLAC are lossless and identical in data. FLAC is compressed, whereas WAV is not (uncompressed). I only made a duplicate library with WAV for MPD use, so the BDP-1 itself won't have to do decompression like it would with FLAC.
With Roon, the subject of compression does not matter because Roon uncompresses all lossless formats to the same PCM before sending it to BDP-1. So whether you use WAV or FLAC in Roon, once the information gets to the BDP-1, it sees the same thing (PCM).
Do you know what batch conversion and transcoding is....? All I'm doing is making a duplicate from FLAC to WAV on a separate hard drive. The data is still the same. It's just uncompressed so the BDP-1 won't have to work harder. I'm not combining multiple tracks to one track. What I mean by "batch conversion" is that I can convert multiple folders of FLAC to WAV automatically.
In this whole process, data is never changed or corrupted. It's still the same data as it was in the studio master. Compression or decompression has nothing to do with that.
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As to why Roon might sound better than MPD:
1) With typical MPD use, you'd plug USB flash drives or hard drives into the USB port. This is bad for two reasons. First, it can put a stress on the power supply of the BDP-1 which can negatively affect performance. Second, all that electrical noise that the flash drive or SSD or hard drive generates goes to the BDP-1 as well. This can also negatively affect performance.
Ethernet is better for electrical isolation than USB, especially when the network gear is powered by grounded linear power supplies (like in my case).
2) Software and resource usage:
With Roon, all the library management and processing happens away from the BDP-1. With MPD, all of that processing happens inside the BDP-1. You can also verify this partially by going to the 'Services' tab in Manic Moose and comparing the CPU %.
Give this a read from Roon and PS Audio:
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Sound_Quality
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/usb-vs-ethernet/
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Also, I don't use TIDAL with Roon. I only use my own physical music. It's the same music that gets played with MPD or Roon.
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With MPD, I'd use WAV.
With Roon, I use FLAC, since PCM is sent to BDP-1. Compressed or uncompressed doesn't matter anymore with Roon and BDP-1. It gets the same PCM.
Most of my stuff is digital download now. Even though I'm a Mac guy, I'd rip in bulk on my spare Windows laptop using Exact Audio Copy. There's good stuff on Mac as well. I use XLD for all the transcoding. The better the rips and metadata is on the original file, the better the experience on Roon.
You should be careful recommending WAV for MPD use, as MPD and Manic Moose struggle with reading tag data from WAV files. FLAC is the most robust choice, from a tag perspective.
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Zoom25, I apologize for my somewhat snarky and poorly written last post. But, without making things too complicated, I own a couple of thousand CDs so I import all my music using iTunes and importing the CDs using aiff files. I also own a few hi res albums from HD Tracks that I import as aiff files at 192/24 PCM. I have used both Roon and Tidal, but I find the best sound from my BDP-2 is from my own imported aiff files and not from Tidal or the hi res files from HD Tracks. I find the USB flash drives with 128 or 256 gigabytes of space to be totally sufficient without the use of a built in hard drive. I think that using Roon and Tidal are a waste of money, and for those who use Tidal to hear new music, you can do the same for free with the BDP-2 built in radio stations of every genre.
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You should be careful recommending WAV for MPD use, as MPD and Manic Moose struggle with reading tag data from WAV files. FLAC is the most robust choice, from a tag perspective.
Isn't the english language great. :lol: "I'd use"...it was meant as in the past "I would use" rather than suggestion "I'd use X if I were you"
Yeah, I think that should be clear about WAV and FLAC. That's why I mentioned I always have a FLAC master library for downloading and ripping. WAV only as a second experimental library. Cheers!
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^ Agree with the above.
I use iTunes to preview albums before deciding to buy CD or download from other sites like PrestoClassical or Pro Studio Masters.
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Zoom25, I apologize for my somewhat snarky and poorly written last post. But, without making things too complicated, I own a couple of thousand CDs so I import all my music using iTunes and importing the CDs using aiff files. I also own a few hi res albums from HD Tracks that I import as aiff files at 192/24 PCM. I have used both Roon and Tidal, but I find the best sound from my BDP-2 is from my own imported aiff files and not from Tidal or the hi res files from HD Tracks. I find the USB flash drives with 128 or 256 gigabytes of space to be totally sufficient without the use of a built in hard drive. I think that using Roon and Tidal are a waste of money, and for those who use Tidal to hear new music, you can do the same for free with the BDP-2 built in radio stations of every genre.
Thanks. It makes more sense now. Let's break down some things. They may be helpful to others as well.
Storage - For those with small libraries, flash drives are perfect. For people with large libraries, they will need a hard drive or a SSD. Keeping multiple flash drives can be confusing in keeping them in sync. You also get more for your money with HDD.
The problem (not really) as far as SQ goes, which even James Tanner, has supported is that flash drives sound the best when plugged into the BDP, rather than hard drives. Krutsch found flash drives better than SSDs as well.
The one benefit with Roon and separation is that you can use any storage and the sound will be the same. So cheap HDD are perfect for the job. Although, if one uses NAS with their BDP, then it doesn't matter with MPD either.
Value: Tidal, Roon - I don't use Tidal. I use Spotify for all my previewing and casual listening. Whether someone sees the value in Tidal or Roon, that is something one has to decide for themselves.
If someone doesn't see the value in a product, then that chapter is closed. My comments were only based with SQ in mind.
As I was telling Krutsch somewhere else, Roon's optimization in RAAT and networking has improved since last year. The SQ has gone up from Roon last year vs. this year. However, the SQ of Roon cannot be boiled down to the Roon software alone. I also think the networking gear used makes a significant difference in sound quality.
If one is using ethernet, I'd highly recommend using a grounded linear power supply for the final network switch that will feed the BDP. I use a Teradak U9 with my network switch. I also use double shielded ethernet cables with grounds removed around my gear.
I fully realize that most don't care about these things or don't want to bother with these things, which is fine. However, I think people should understand that it's not as simple as saying "MPD sounds better than Roon" or vice versa. Aside from the software and resource usage, they should also consider the associated gear used in the process. It's a combination of both. The power supplies is the biggest part and often ignored.
This is why if you'll read my comments on Roon last year, they'll be less than favourable. Part of it had to do with improving my network gear and also improving their RAAT.
I hope that makes things clear.
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Zoom25 I failed to mention that when I use iTunes to import music, it is imported to a 2 Terabyte Toshiba hard drive, and from this hard drive, I copy the music to individual flash drives and connect those to the BDP-2. With MPD, all music sounds better than on a CD player, even a high end CD player. :wink:
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Others finding ROON on BDP3 unstable?
I can play for some time, suddenly there is a static pop and sound is gone.
I get sound back by restarting Bdp3 and/or restart ROON MODE and Go in advanced and choose BDA3 Audio 2.0-USB Audio, and save.
Im using BDP3 -- USB -- BDA3.
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Others finding ROON on BDP3 unstable?
I can play for some time, suddenly there is a static pop and sound is gone.
I get sound back by restarting Bdp3 and/or restart ROON MODE and Go in advanced and choose BDA3 Audio 2.0-USB Audio, and save.
Im using BDP3 -- USB -- BDA3.
Are you using Roon because you don't like Manic Moose? What source from do you listen to for the majority of your music?
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Are you using Roon because you don't like Manic Moose? What source from do you listen to for the majority of your music?
When you used Roon with BDP, did you use wireless dongle or wired with ethernet? If you used wired, did you connect the BDP to a network switch or a router? Did you use stock power supplies that the router or network switch came with?
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When you used Roon with BDP, did you use wireless dongle or wired with ethernet? If you used wired, did you connect the BDP to a network switch or a router? Did you use stock power supplies that the router or network switch came with?
I have no wired ethernet connection; I use a bridge. Regardless, I have absolutely zero interest in doing anything to make Roon sound better or to use it period. I don't need it or want it. I am satisfied with Manic Moose and my ability to access all my music files intuitively and conveniently with sonic bliss.
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Are you using Roon because you don't like Manic Moose? What source from do you listen to for the majority of your music?
I have BDP3 connected with wire directly to Asus RT5300, internet is fiber 300/300.
Music is on a server also connected directly to same router, music played is music stored on server or streaming from Tidal. I have ROCK installed on Intel NUC NUC7i7BNH Baby Canyon connected wired to same router.
ROON is preferred because I also use Lumin D1 and JBL Extreme in two different rooms, very easy to use same interface and just switch zones. It looks good, is easy to use and you can pretty much set it up to show you the music you want to play in a very intuitive way, and the music never stops if "radio" is activated, ROON keeps picking music when playlist ends8)
Lumin D1 and JBL is stable, BDP3 keeps stopping. BDP3 and ROON is playing, but the "Lock "on BDA3 stops and there is no sound, the light on USB is still green.
BDP3 is uncertified, maybe this is why??
When time aloes Im gonna try using only AES/EBU maybe this is more stable.
Bryston sounds sublime when working :D
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I have BDP3 connected with wire directly to Asus RT5300, internet is fiber 300/300.
Music is on a server also connected directly to same router, music played is music stored on server or streaming from Tidal. I have ROCK installed on Intel NUC NUC7i7BNH Baby Canyon connected wired to same router.
ROON is preferred because I also use Lumin D1 and JBL Extreme in two different rooms, very easy to use same interface and just switch zones. It looks good, is easy to use and you can pretty much set it up to show you the music you want to play in a very intuitive way, and the music never stops if "radio" is activated, ROON keeps picking music when playlist ends8)
Lumin D1 and JBL is stable, BDP3 keeps stopping. BDP3 and ROON is playing, but the "Lock "on BDA3 stops and there is no sound, the light on USB is still green.
BDP3 is uncertified, maybe this is why??
When time aloes Im gonna try using only AES/EBU maybe this is more stable.
Bryston sounds sublime when working :D
I am not familiar with Lumin and JBL Extreme and the like as my setup is far more simpler than what you described. I guess as long as it works for you, fine. :|
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Regardless, I have absolutely zero interest in doing anything to make Roon sound better or to use it period.
I sometimes wonder if we had Roon if it would keep people from playing the Hamilton soundtrack non-stop. Some variety of musical tunes in the house would be good.
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I sometimes wonder if we had Roon if it would keep people from playing the Hamilton soundtrack non-stop. Some variety of musical tunes in the house would be good.
You've definitely got me curious about the Hamilton soundtrack. :lol: That Good?
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You've definitely got me curious about the Hamilton soundtrack. :lol: That Good?
Apparently :D .
It's not to my tastes other than one song but everyone else seems to love it.
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I am not familiar with Lumin and JBL Extreme and the like as my setup is far more simpler than what you described. I guess as long as it works for you, fine. :|
Lumin D1 is a streamer just like Bdp3, but built in dac and a very good app, JBL Extreme is a portable Bluetooth music box.
I hope I get the problems with BDP3 and BDA3 sorted out because I like the sound from these boxes.
At the price though I really think the interface and ease of use is far behind the competition.
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Lumin D1 is a streamer just like Bdp3, but built in dac and a very good app, JBL Extreme is a portable Bluetooth music box.
I hope I get the problems with BDP3 and BDA3 sorted out because I like the sound from these boxes.
At the price though I really think the interface and ease of use is far behind the competition.
Maybe those other products are like receivers containing every bell and whistle. To do so, they may sacrifice that last level of sound quality. Maybe Bryston focused on sound quality over bells and whistles. As far as I am concerned, when one uses products like Roon, you would have to design your own product around Roon and not your own product. I appreciate the fact that the BDPs allow me to conveniently access my entire digital library. The things Roon can do may be stretching these machines too far. The fact that these units sound best using Manic Moose with MPD is fine with me. When I look at the performance and cost, the BDPs are winners. :thumb:
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No problem understanding your point of view gbaby, BDP is a fantastic sounding player :thumb:
But as the title in this thread says "BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready".
I just wish they made it certified, and that it would work flawlessly in ROON mode.
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No problem understanding your point of view gbaby, BDP is a fantastic sounding player :thumb:
But as the title in this thread says "BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready".
I just wish they made it certified, and that it would work flawlessly in ROON mode.
Hi Folks,
The Certification does not change the performance - its just the bureaucratic aspect of the relationship - we have to submit a BDP to them anytime we make a change in the model number. That's been done and an official "certification' will be forthcoming - but nothing will change from the current version of ROON running on the BDP-3.
ROON runs perfectly on my systems at home and we have a lot of our customers running ROON as well.
james
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Thanks for the clarification James.
Dont know why ROON fails in my setup??
Flashdrive and DLNA client works flawlessly, as does HDMI from Appletv4.
With ROON the USB connection between BDP3 and BDA3 fails after about 10(+-) songs.
I have not updated the fw on BDA3, but this should not make a difference?
Is there a specific USB on the BDP3 I should use?
For now I use Manic Moose, till I figure out why ROON is unstable.
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Thanks for the clarification James.
Dont know why ROON fails in my setup??
Flashdrive and DLNA client works flawlessly, as does HDMI from Appletv4.
With ROON the USB connection between BDP3 and BDA3 fails after about 10(+-) songs.
I have not updated the fw on BDA3, but this should not make a difference?
Is there a specific USB on the BDP3 I should use?
For now I use Manic Moose, till I figure out why ROON is unstable.
Hi Xinon
That's a Chris question for sure - will let him answer.
james
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Thankyou James.
Tried again now.
Played one album, no problems after 12 tracks.
Trying to provoke the problems by changing songs after about 10sec on each song.
Changed to next album played 10sec, changed song again and played for 10 sec, changed to album in 24/88, small static pop and no sound, BDA3 still locked in 44. Tried one album in 16/44 ROON skipped thru all songs and lights on the left (lock lights on BDA3) is off.
Changed Zone to Lumin, it plays as normal.
Change Zone back to Bryston, skipped all songs on album and stops.
Tried to turn ROON of and on again in BDP Services menu, still the same.
Turned playback ROON on and go to service menu an turn ROON on, this time not working still.
Restart BDP3, ROON is now playing songs as normal, but there is no sound and Lock lights on BDA3 is of.
Turn BDA3 off and on, still the same.
Change input on BDA3 to HDMI, works no problem.
Change USB Cable to USB2 on BDA3, still the same problem.
Start MPD, play from flash drive everything is working.
Start ROON ready again, and now its working???
Tried 6-7 different songs from 16/44 to 24/192 even some DSD songs no problem, but I know its a matter of time before same happens, so stick to Manic Moose for the Bryston.
I still have the BDA1, will try this next time, but now I want to listen to music :thumb:
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I might have found the problem, at least I hope so.
Changed the ethernet cable to the one I use for Appletv, this wire is not connected directly to the router, but via a switch. I also changed the USB cable from an Oyade I just bought to Nordost Blue Heaven. Maybe the ethernet cable or the USB cable was faulty, because now it has played nonstop for 4 hours straight.
Looks like Bryston was not to blame after all :duh:
Been frustrating troubleshooting, but now sweet music is again restored in my main system :thumb:
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I might have found the problem, at least I hope so.
Changed the ethernet cable to the one I use for Appletv, this wire is not connected directly to the router, but via a switch. I also changed the USB cable from an Oyade I just bought to Nordost Blue Heaven. Maybe the ethernet cable or the USB cable was faulty, because now it has played nonstop for 4 hours straight.
Looks like Bryston was not to blame after all :duh:
Been frustrating troubleshooting, but now sweet music is again restored in my main system :thumb:
Chris asked me to send you a bill for $1,500.00 for his time. :lol:
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Chris asked me to send you a bill for $1,500.00 for his time. :lol:
Good I didn't have to send it in then :o
:lol: :lol:
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Good I didn't have to send it in then :o
:lol: :lol:
I have already wasted the company's time, probably more than once. :oops:
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I have already wasted the company's time, probably more than once. :oops:
Me too, James should have a medal for his patience :thumb:
Not many CO would do what he does on this forum, thats one of the reasons we love Bryston.
Happy to report that BDP3 and BDA3 have played flawlessly since I changed the cables, who says cables doesn't matter :lol:
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Looks like I was quick to believe trouble was over :?
Today same problem, but now I can't even choose USB in service menu.
USB light is green on BDA3, but not "lock" light, and of course no sound.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173862)
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Hooked BDP3 up in my other room to McIntosh C2600, here I can use USB again.
Maybe problem is BDA3?? I try to upgrade firmware this weekend.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173881)
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Hooked BDP3 up in my other room to McIntosh C2600, here I can use USB again.
Maybe problem is BDA3?? I try to upgrade firmware this weekend.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173881)
Have you tried just power cycling the BDA-3? also the BDA-3 has multiple USB inputs and the BDP won't see it if the BDA isn't on the correct USB input. Is it a BDP-Pi? The BDP-Pi needs to be rebooted to see a USB DAC.
Chris
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Have you tried just power cycling the BDA-3? also the BDA-3 has multiple USB inputs and the BDP won't see it if the BDA isn't on the correct USB input. Is it a BDP-Pi? The BDP-Pi needs to be rebooted to see a USB DAC.
Chris
I have BDP3 and BDA3, and have had some problems lately with dropouts in ROON mode.
Small static pop and no sound when using USB.
If you read my earlier posts I try to explain what is happening.
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@Chris:
also the BDA-3 has multiple USB inputs and the BDP won't see it if the BDA isn't on the correct USB input.
Is there a preferred USB input on the BDA (to connect from the BDP) or are you referring to the selection of the switch/button on the front?
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So, take away power on both BDA3 and BDP3, hook together and power up.
Play music for about 1hour, small static pop and no music, did not skip song just playing from playlist!
Everything still looks normal in BDP3, but no sound, what do I try next?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173921)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173922)
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Hi Xinon
Maybe Chris could connect remotely an see what is going on.
james
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Hi Xinon
Maybe Chris could connect remotely an see what is going on.
james
In service mode now.
Service id 22
Do you need more?
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In service mode now.
Service id 22
Do you need more?
That should be fine - just have to wait for Chris to see this.
james
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No luck in updating BDA3, maybe the old model with wrong Bootloader.
Restarted everything now, if it stops playing I set in service mode again.
Is this a BDA3 from early 2015 with old Bootloader?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=173926)
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Service id 82
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Ok leave it in service mode and I am sure Chris will get to as soon as he sees this.
I will email him as well.
james
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Thanx.
It is now in service mode
ID 30
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Is anyone using a digital processor between their BDP and their DAC?
I'm considering a BDP-1 for my main system, and my digital signal chain would be as follows:
Bryston BPD-1 > AES/XLR > miniDSP DDRC-22D (re-clocks all incoming signals to 96/24 for Dirac Live processing) > Coax Digital > Esoteric SA-50 DAC
Does anyone know if this would cause any issues?
Also, is anyone using a router/wireless extender that's connected to wi-fi to hard-wire their BDP to Ethernet? I don't have hard-wired ethernet running into the room my main system is in.
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Also, is anyone using a router/wireless extender that's connected to wi-fi to hard-wire their BDP to Ethernet? I don't have hard-wired ethernet running into the room my main system is in.
I use a Netgear AV200. Works perfectly with my BDP. Runs through a wall outlet and ethernet CAT cable from my BDP.
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Is anyone using a digital processor between their BDP and their DAC?
I have a Lyngdorf DPA-1 between my DAC (Gungnir) and the BDP-1. BDP-1 -> AES -> DPA-1 -> Coax -> Gungnir.
DPA-1 doing crossover, RoomPerfect processing. Sounds supercallifragilicious.
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I use a Netgear AV200. Works perfectly with my BDP. Runs through a wall outlet and ethernet CAT cable from my BDP.
I have a Lyngdorf DPA-1 between my DAC (Gungnir) and the BDP-1. BDP-1 -> AES -> DPA-1 -> Coax -> Gungnir.
DPA-1 doing crossover, RoomPerfect processing. Sounds supercallifragilicious.
Excellent, thanks guys.
Both using the BDP-1 as a Roon endpoint?
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I do not use Roon. I playback FLAC from attached drives with MPad control.
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Both using the BDP-1 as a Roon endpoint?
I use my BDP-1 in MPD mode, being remotely fed from MinimServer. I tried Roon but it had no value for me.
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hi, folks!
i'm using Roon now for the first time. :oops:
i loaded my folders and it seems that Roon adds (and plays!) songs that i never loaded to my folders... :scratch:
anyone out there who cn tell me what i did wrong??
thanks,
al.
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Preferences -> Storage
Check the folders you have selected. Perhaps you have some default folders selected there. Are you logged into Tidal?
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hi, Zoom!
no Tidal connections that i am aware of...
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I'm posting because I'm having ]two issues with my BDP-3. I've tried to email James, Mike and Chris, but have not gotten a response (unusual in my experience).
Since February, Quboz will play, then stop, then resume. The longer it plays the more frequent this becomes. It had been working fine until then.
As of a few days ago, when I began using Roon a little more (running from a headless MacMini), the BDP will not switch back to MPD from Roon mode. The first time this happened, although powering down and powering up did not resolve it, restarting the BDP-3 from the menu did get MPD back on. However, having switched again to Roon mode, it now will not switch back to MPD. I’ve gone through Services a number of times, and MPD will not shut off when unchecked, but the BDP continues to be locked in Roon mode. I upgraded firmware in late May - so don’t know if this has something to do with it.
My BDP is in service mode, ID 26
'm a long standing Bryston user. SP1.7 bypass, BDP-3, BDA-3, BOT, 6B-ST, 4NRB, Vandersteen 5's, and very much enjoy tracking this group.
davidtgoh@gmail.com
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i loaded my folders and it seems that Roon adds (and plays!) songs that i never loaded to my folders... :scratch:
Do you have a streaming service enabled for Roon, and also have Roon Radio turned on?
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I had something similar only it was with SharePoint
BDP2 updated to S2.45 2022-05-26
MPD worked fine until I switched to SharePoint (which did work)
However I could not re select MPD I tried rebooting as well as unplugging BDP remained locked on SharePoint.
I finally reloaded the firmware and MPD. Is working again.
David