Let's talk about Tube Rolling in the Modwright LS100 Pre

Alleye · « **Reply #40 on:** 7 Feb 2012, 04:45 am »

Hey everyone -

About 3 weeks ago, I put a pair of Psvane CV181-Ts into my LS100, and over the weekend I crossed the 100 hour mark. I thought I'd take a moment and post some of notes from the log I kept.

I listened to a lot of different music over the last few weeks, but I'd cycle through the following three albums at the noted milestones:

Yoko Kaneko - Mozart - Works from his Golden Age - 2011 MA Recordings
Greg Brown - The Live One - 1995 Hacklebarney Music
Sophia Milman - Make Someone Happy - 2007 Linus

00 Hours - Seem especially noisy with a lot of tube rush. Seems much brighter/harsh compared to the TunSols
10 Hours - Brightness seems to be fading a bit, but more harshness/tightness in mid/upper mids. More detail overall though...
40 Hours - More liquid, good separtion of instruments, micro and macro dynamics are more evident, still seems "pinched" in the upper treble, on stresses/elevated vocals soundstage seems to collapse
60 Hours - MUCH smoother, more settled - Pinched quality is gone - more air and ability to convey micro details, PRAT seems more linear from top to bottom - Sounds more like music
80 Hours - Overall balance is much more linear, the harsh upper treble is now gone - Relaxed without being muddy
100 Hours - Lush, but with more treble detail, micro details tend to be "spooky" - Very enjoyable

Overall, I like them, they sound really nice and a big improvement over stock. However, in a fit of audio nervosa, I ordered a set of the clearance Shuguang Treasure (Black Bottle) CV-181Z sets from Grant. Those arrived today, and once they have a day or so to come to room temps, I'll start the burn in there.

Again, nothing scientific, but I hope that helps

Alleye · « **Reply #41 on:** 11 Mar 2012, 08:27 pm »

Hey everyone - Finally had a chance to draft a response to my last post. As mentioned in that post, I had ordered a pair of Shuguang Treasure (Black Bottle) CV-181Z sets from Grant to compare/contrast with the Psvane CV181-Ts. Again, this wasn't scientific, and your mileage might vary, but these are my listening notes over the last 100 or so hours...

As before I'd cycle through a lot of music and then would return to the following three albums at the noted milestones:

Yoko Kaneko - Mozart - Works from his Golden Age - 2011 MA Recordings
Greg Brown - The Live One - 1995 Hacklebarney Music
Sophia Milman - Make Someone Happy - 2007 Linus

00 Hours - Seems very natural out of the gate - has good body and balance, but maybe a little closed in - seemingly more intimate.
16 Hours - I don't perceive much if any change - maybe a bit more open but probably just wanting to hear that...
38 Hours - Muddy quality starting to lift a bit, still very natural but a little cloudy/muffled
49 Hours - Treble is starting to open up, sound is more neautral/wam, natural - less hifi, but still doesn't jump out at you
60 Hours - PRAT is now better/connected top to bottom, more detail as well without being harsh - Still something there though - seems slightly veiled can't quite put my finger on it - just not totally open
90 Hours - Wider soundstage, more "shimmer" in vocals, nice body - Very easy to listen to
100 Hours- More treble detail, but never tips over and shouts certain frequencies - relaxing listen

Comparing and contrasting... Honestly, I thought there would be a bigger different between the tubes. What I did find interesting was how they reached the 100 hour mark. The Pavane smoothed out from a more harsh beginning, the BTs opened up from a more clouded beginning. I'll probably try and "side by side" these a little more in the future, but if I'd have to call it... The Psvane seem to have just a hair more energy or "go" in the upper registers, while the BTs don't sound slow, but they do seem to be a bit more relaxed.

As a result, I wouldn't say one is better than the other. They offer a very fine tone control depending on what you're ultimately looking for. Hope that helps if anyone has questions feel free to drop me a line.

Happy Listening!

dminches · « **Reply #42 on:** 11 Mar 2012, 08:48 pm »

Have you also tried a pair of $100 NOS Sylvanias or Tung Sols to compare to the Shuguang or Psvanes?

mraudio · « **Reply #43 on:** 11 Mar 2012, 10:12 pm »

Alleye...I found your comparision between the Psvane and Shuguang to be spot on with mine. Except, I preferred the Shuguang (Z) to the Psvane (T), for just the reasons you stated. I was looking for a more relaxed, warmer and more romantic sound. The Shuguang (Z) had that is spades. I also really liked the Sophia 6SN7s.

My order of preference:

1. Shuguang CV-181Z
2. Sophia 6SN7
3. Psvane CV-181T
4. Sylvania Bad Boys (I have both short and tall bottles and couldn't tell a difference)
5. RCA Red Base

These are of course, in "MY" system, and is what "I" was looking for and I sure didn't try ALL of what's available. YMMV.

Dr.J · « **Reply #44 on:** 25 Sep 2012, 09:42 pm »

Hi, on the Grant Fidelity web site, it suggests that the Shuguang CV-181z and and Psvane CV 181-T are the same tubes and yet you're suggesting differences. As far as I know, the Shuguang CV-181z is no longer available; is this correct?

thanks,

John

Toon · « **Reply #45 on:** 24 Nov 2013, 02:32 am »

Like many of you, I am using a NOS Mullard 5AR4 rectifier tube in my LS100. However, this article - http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue68/5R4GYS.htm - has made me want to try a Phillips 5R4GYS (which Parts Connexion are offering for $40, cheaper than Upscale Audio). The writer claims they're "totally compatible" with the 5AR4, but other comments I've read suggest otherwise - anyone know whether it's safe to use in the LS100? Thanks.

mraudio · « **Reply #46 on:** 24 Nov 2013, 03:58 pm »

I had asked Dan before about using a 5R4 and he said it was fine, however "most" 5R4s would be too tall for the unit and the hood wouldn't close. You would have to leave the cover off or have Dan punch a hole in it.

Not sure about the 5R4 you ask about, maybe Dan will see this and respond.

Wig · « **Reply #47 on:** 24 Nov 2013, 05:05 pm »

If you're looking for that classic Mullard sound with better dynamics, you have to try the $40 Genalux Gold Lion. It smoked my Mullard and Create Synergy 5AR4.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1341498195&&&/5AR4-GZ34-Rectifier-Tubes

Wig

DaBoss · « **Reply #48 on:** 24 Nov 2013, 10:55 pm »

Thanks Wig. That forum link was of great interest to me. I have been looking into buying a Mullard recently. I went ahead and purchased the Genalux Gold Lion based on the comments in the thread. Its always nice to get impressions from other audiophiles.

dminches · « **Reply #49 on:** 24 Nov 2013, 11:34 pm »

The sound of the GZ34 is unique due too the very low voltage drop. It don't think you will get the same dynamics with a 5U4G or 5R4.

33na3rd · « **Reply #50 on:** 25 Nov 2013, 03:40 am »

Quote from: Toon on 24 Nov 2013, 02:32 am

Like many of you, I am using a NOS Mullard 5AR4 rectifier tube in my LS100. However, this article - http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue68/5R4GYS.htm - has made me want to try a Phillips 5R4GYS (which Parts Connexion are offering for $40, cheaper than Upscale Audio). The writer claims they're "totally compatible" with the 5AR4, but other comments I've read suggest otherwise - anyone know whether it's safe to use in the LS100? Thanks.

I myself, would hesitate to try a 5R4GYS in my LS100.

Before I got my LS100, I was running a PrimaLuna Dialogue 3 with a pair of those same Philips 5R4GYS. The 5R4GYS's have a wonderful midrange and presence, but my Philips GZ34's (Mullards) have superior bass & drive. I had a transformer failure while running the 5R4GYS's in the PrimaLuna. A coincidence? Probably, but I have no intention of inserting a 5R4GYS into my LS100 and repeating that experience. (Yes, I am superstitious).

I wouldn't put tubes in that I don't know for certain will work optimally.

I do understand that there are many different tubes with different names that work the same. You've got a 12AU7, you can try a CV4003, 7316, 5184A, or 6189. Now some people have stuck 12BH7's into the 12AU7 slot and had good results, some not. Unless it says in the owner's manual, or Dan says so, I wouldn't try tubes that are not specifically approved.

And, as gorgeous as the case of the LS100 is, why would you want to have a hole put into the cover? I also think that running this particular unit without the cover is a mistake. All that gorgeous aluminum when screwed together helps absorb & dissipate vibrations & heat.

I must say that I'm curious about these new New Sensor/Genalex 5AR4's. I've tried some some of their other offerings, and was pleasantly surprised! Some of their tubes give NOS a run for their money.

JerryH · « **Reply #51 on:** 15 Dec 2013, 08:11 pm »

I've been comparing the Genelex to a metal base GZ34 and a Blackburn Mullard CV593. The Mullard was sweet but lacked dynamics and bass. The Genelex pretty much was the equal to the Dutch metal base GZ34. It is a touch warmer and I like the tone better. To be more specific, my go to reference is Coltrane Giant Steps alternate takes 24/192 through the modded Oppo 95. The sax is more full bodied and the bass a touch deeper. It sounds like a different mike in the recording like going from a condenser to Shure 57 on the sax. To my ear, I prefer the Genelex but it's a very close comparison. The metal base GZ34 was causing a buzzing in the transformer that didn't affect the output but kinda bugged me. Dan had suggested the tube as the culprit and he was right.
Bottom line is the Genelex is a really worthwhile alternative and specially at $40. I got mine from Cyroset.

Toon · « **Reply #52 on:** 20 Dec 2013, 09:42 pm »

Thanks for the responses. I checked with Dan whether the 5R4GYS would be compatible and he wasn't sure, but I mistakenly thought that the LS100 was taller than it is; the tube is too big to fit, and I'm not running it without the lid on. The heads-up about the Genalex is brilliant news and, as I also get the transformer buzzing sporadically, something I must try.

Also curious whether anyone's tried the pretty new Psvane CV181T Mk2 tubes? As others have reported, my Black Treasures didn't last as long as expected (18 months of moderate use, plus another 6 months from swapping them right to left; the LS100 only uses half of the tube so I'd anticipated a doubling of tube life, but not to be) so, as much as I loved their sound, I went for the Psvanes to replace them. Only got a few hours on them but very impressed - straight out of the box they're close to the BTs (which needed a lot of running to sound their best), and the bass is actually better.

toddc2 · « **Reply #53 on:** 19 Dec 2015, 04:33 pm »

I just picked up a used LS100 to pair up with my KWA150! When I opened it up to look at the tubes I got really excited to see Tung-Sol 6SN7's and a Mullard GZ34 installed. My joy was short lived when I discovered all three tubes were made in Russia. So the search for NOS tubes is on....

Brent Jessue has the 1960's MullardGZ34 in stock, so I assume all is good there. Is there a specific tube to be looking for? His are 4 notch....

And now to the sticker shock of sourcing Tung-Sol round plates. At $525, I'm VERY hesitant. He does have some late 60's triangular plates at a much lower price, has anyone tried this tube?

JackD · « **Reply #54 on:** 19 Dec 2015, 06:24 pm »

Todd

Is there any reason you want round plate Tung Sol other than their reputation, they are not an "end all" tube. In fact their GTB's sound pretty close for around $75. I would call Andy Bowman at Vintage Tube services and talk to him. His prices are generally lower and his inventory bigger. Let him know what type of 'sound" you are looking for and he can guide you to a 6SN7 tubes that fits your needs and budget. I prefer Hytron and Raytheon to Tung Sol and some prefer other brands. Same with the GZ34, as those prices are driven my inventory availability and reputation. None of the NOS rectifiers from Mullard are not good tubes. Even the ones made at the Matsushita factory in Japan are very good. If you haven't, might want to read through this thread from a couple of years ago.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread

toddc2 · « **Reply #55 on:** 19 Dec 2015, 07:12 pm »

Quote from: JackD on 19 Dec 2015, 06:24 pm

Todd

Is there any reason you want round plate Tung Sol other than their reputation, they are not an "end all" tube.

Nope, this AC thread started me off on the TS path, but there's not much of a chance of me spending that kind of money on them.

I appreciate the guidance and reference to the head-fi thread!

Todd

JackD · « **Reply #56 on:** 19 Dec 2015, 07:47 pm »

Todd

I have one of the 60's Mullard GZ34's as well as the one they made in Japan. I honestly can't hear a difference between the two in the LS-100. The only difference may be how long one lasts compared to the other, but that would be years out before it even was thought to be an issue. Glad the link helped. It is the opinion of others in the audio and reviewing business, but many times there is a consensus on the sonic signature of a particular brand or tube. Your other gear, especially speakers, may determine the basic flavor of the 6SN7 tube that will work best for you. To some extent you can "flavor" the LS-100 with those two tubes.

toddc2 · « **Reply #57 on:** 19 Dec 2015, 10:12 pm »

I ended up ordering the 1960's Mullard GZ34 and the 1940's RCA VT-231 black plates. I want a lush mid-range while keeping the bass tight and it looks like the RCA's will be a great start. Thanks for the help!

Todd

JackD · « **Reply #58 on:** 19 Dec 2015, 10:46 pm »

Sounds great Todd. Just so happens I have a NOS pair of the 40's RCA VT-231's with the smoked glass coming in the mail from a dealer on AK. I already had the early 50's ones labeled 6SN7GT, but for what I paid for this pair I thought I would give them a try. Glad everything worked out. I think you will really enjoy the LS-100. Even with the new production tubes it was pretty good.

jimbones · « **Reply #59 on:** 21 Dec 2015, 03:42 pm »

Im using RCA grey glass in my ls100. Love it. I am considering Black Treasure Cv181z and not sure if I will regret it