Journey of my DAC 10

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Tan Raymond

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #20 on: 12 Aug 2017, 04:31 am »
Hi All,
I will keep in mind what's mentioned here and see what will happen. Will be back after the st-10 comes in. Thanks again. LOL about the comment about not being forced to listen, well then I might as well put everything in the storage room, shut it in and let it burn in for a month before bringing it out. Then, there would not be anything to compare, is there????? :-(

Tan Raymond

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  • Posts: 24
  • Retired and coming back to music after 30 years
Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #21 on: 12 Aug 2017, 04:41 am »
Hi All,
One thing I learned decades ago is, if a person is giving feedback, whether positive or negative, he/she still wants to do business with you. If you take negative feedback as "negative" and respond as such, you are not fit to be marketing, you loose rhis customer. I want to support my dealer, as he's a nice guy. He even set up my son's system for me, (I'm living abroad), so it's not trying to put down Nuprime, but other wise. I have another system to fulfil, maybe another Nuprime???

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #22 on: 12 Aug 2017, 05:46 am »
Hi All,
I will keep in mind what's mentioned here and see what will happen. Will be back after the st-10 comes in. Thanks again. LOL about the comment about not being forced to listen, well then I might as well put everything in the storage room, shut it in and let it burn in for a month before bringing it out. Then, there would not be anything to compare, is there????? :-(

 :lol:   You can listen!   

You just can keep burning it in by turning off the amp when you can't listen.  That's all. I burned it in one night while asleep by leaving the amp off.

reillyzing

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #23 on: 13 Oct 2017, 10:35 pm »
Tan Raymond, did your DAC-10 ever reach a level of performance you're happy with?

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #24 on: 13 Oct 2017, 11:25 pm »
Hi All,
Interesting pointers raised here. Will allow the dac to "run" without the amp. Fuse, not tried but may try. Bi-amp, no, unless I invest in another gear - some external cross over. There is no benefits in bi-amping. Tried and could not hear any difference. Cables, am using reasonable quality interconnects, speaker, usb, optical and digital coaxial cables. I apportioned at least 15% budget on cables. Not including room treatment at home. Thanks for all the feedback. Will come back if I get any improvements. Hope i'm still sane then.


Before you get a new fuse.  Try taking the fuse you now have and set it in the opposite direction that it now sits in the fuse holder.   If you take out a magnifying glass you will see that each of the two fuse caps are marked differently.  One cap shows the power and amp rating.  I believe it should show 2.5A on one of the caps.  The other cap will not show the amp rating and should contain a symbol that the other does not. 

Fuses are directional.  People at audio factories rarely bother with this.   With the DAC 10 it can make a difference.  Try flipping the fuse direction and let us know if you hear a difference. On mine I do.

RafaPolit

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #25 on: 14 Oct 2017, 05:15 am »
...People at audio factories rarely bother with this....
I wonder why!  :scratch: You do know that at that point the current is still AC, meaning that it will flow in both directions!!! So, let's assume that the fuse is directional: it would allow flow in one direction and block it in the other. So, if you have current to the device, and you have a'directional' fuse, reverting it will mean you will get no current.

Other than that, it will have no effect. Current is flowing BOTH WAYS!   :duh:

Stop pitching nonesense notions to users!

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #26 on: 14 Oct 2017, 06:48 am »
Ever see one of these?

   .........................   

Its tests to see if the neutral and hot were not wired in reverse. If what you say about AC were all there is to it?   There would be no need to see if the hot and neutral were reversed.

There are both voltage and current to deal with.  They are not the same things. Tubes run on voltage. Solid state depends upon current.
I am no expert.  But, electricians would get fired if they wired an AC socket backwards. AC plugs, if they are only the two pronged types will have one side wider than the other, so that it can only be plugged in the AC outlet one way.


...........................   

If you ever used an APC Back UPS?   The initial test it runs is to test the polarity of the AC outlet to see if its been wired correctly.

srb

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #27 on: 14 Oct 2017, 07:08 am »
Quite possibly the worst analogy ever.  Reversing a fuse has absolutely nothing to do with the proper wiring of an AC receptacle's hot and neutral lines.

Reversing a fuse does not change the hot and neutral wiring orientation.  If a fuse has directionality, then so does every piece of hookup wire and every circuit board trace in a component.  And guess what?  Whatever their orientation, they are all installed backwards.

I'm good with that, but obviously a huge problem for you.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #28 on: 14 Oct 2017, 04:13 pm »
Reversing a fuse does not change the hot and neutral wiring orientation.

Of course. It will not change the AC orientation. But it changes for what the AC orientation is.

Obviously... you ones who complain are unable to detect any differences.  There are those who have systems that allow for them to hear it without a problem. 

I am sorry... its not that you have bad ears.  Its just that certain things have not yet been established in your systems that would make you able to hear it.

And... I do not know why.  For, I can demonstrate it and repeat it on my current system and with others I have had before. The only way to solve the problem would be to visit your listening room and see what you have and, what it is you can hear from it. 

I used to sell audio and had the freedom to audition various pieces of equipment over Sundays when the shop was closed.  I was surprised how some speakers would allow for hearing details that others simply muted...   And,  the same could hold true with electronics.  That is the problem I believe.

Tan Raymond

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  • Retired and coming back to music after 30 years
Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #29 on: 16 Oct 2017, 02:21 am »
Hi All,
Thanks for keeping this thread alive and full of ideas. I must confess that I tried some and not all worked. However, the main culprit, high pitched harshness is now gone and system is settling down. Thanks again. I will be back home to my country end this month to collect my ST-10. Will come back to the forum after running it for a while to give feedback.

dburna

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #30 on: 16 Oct 2017, 02:47 am »
Question for DAC10 owners: I have been researching the DAC10 and it looks like a fantastically flexible solution as the centerpiece of a digital-only audio rig.  I love the way they implemented the volume control on this.  However, I have one issue: this uses a SABRE DAC chip (9018, correct?).  I have rarely liked most SABRE implementations -- I had heard that it is non-trivial to get the best out of the architecture.  It's not a chip you can just "drop in" a board and expect great results.  Yes, I know that few chips are, but my impression is that SABRE is harder than others.  I have heard a couple SABRE DACs that I liked, but most of them are for bigger $$$ than the NuPrime.

So, the question: has the DAC10 really eliminated the "SABRE glare" that plagues many other implementations?  It doesn't have a steely or hard upper midrange/treble?  Would like to hear one of these before taking the plunge.  Is there anyone in the Chicago area that has one of these and would be willing to host a short listening session?

Thanks,  -dB

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #31 on: 16 Oct 2017, 05:00 am »
Not steely, or hard...

rustydoglim

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #32 on: 16 Oct 2017, 10:43 am »
Question for DAC10 owners: I have been researching the DAC10 and it looks like a fantastically flexible solution as the centerpiece of a digital-only audio rig.  I love the way they implemented the volume control on this.  However, I have one issue: this uses a SABRE DAC chip (9018, correct?).  I have rarely liked most SABRE implementations -- I had heard that it is non-trivial to get the best out of the architecture.  It's not a chip you can just "drop in" a board and expect great results.  Yes, I know that few chips are, but my impression is that SABRE is harder than others.  I have heard a couple SABRE DACs that I liked, but most of them are for bigger $$$ than the NuPrime.

So, the question: has the DAC10 really eliminated the "SABRE glare" that plagues many other implementations?  It doesn't have a steely or hard upper midrange/treble?  Would like to hear one of these before taking the plunge.  Is there anyone in the Chicago area that has one of these and would be willing to host a short listening session?

Thanks,  -dB

Someone once told me that we are the only implementation that he knows that does not have the "Sabre glare".
I don't know about this so called "glare" (we rarely compare devices from other brands, we just focus on making our own devices sound authentic) and don't want to get into any bragging. What I can say is this:  DAC-10 has been bought by hundreds of audiophiles worldwide who have good ears, and have been reviewed by many, and received top awards. 
I kept telling people don't go chase after the latest chip.  DAC chips no longer determine the performance of the DAC, because they are all pretty good (very little audible difference between ESS 9018, 9028, 9038).  A distributor just wrote to me saying that DAC-10 still sounds better than CDP-9 (which uses ESS9028)

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #33 on: 23 Oct 2017, 04:02 am »
I wonder why!  :scratch: You do know that at that point the current is still AC, meaning that it will flow in both directions!!! So, let's assume that the fuse is directional: it would allow flow in one direction and block it in the other. So, if you have current to the device, and you have a'directional' fuse, reverting it will mean you will get no current.

Other than that, it will have no effect. Current is flowing BOTH WAYS!   :duh:

Stop pitching nonesense notions to users!

There is more!   AC Polarity 102....  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ac-cord-polarity-does-it-matter

As for you Rafa?  Please..  Stop pitching close minded notions to users!  Please...get an education before you are quick to mock what you do not understand. 

In a GOOD system in the USA, AC polarity is audible when its reversed.  In a DULL system?  You can do what ever you please, and you will hear no differences.  Power cords -nada.  Fuses - nada.   In a GOOD system?  A real eye opener! 

 If you would only learn a few needed good things you may find yourself someday with a very revealing transparent system.

RafaPolit

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Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #34 on: 23 Oct 2017, 02:08 pm »
...Please...get an education before you are quick to mock what you do not understand. ...
Hahahahaha  :lol: this coming from the person saying: there is no science behind this, its unexplainable "magic", but trust me, I can hear it.

I'm out of here, good luck convincing the world you can hear a difference when you reverse fuses or that putting a small feather underneath a window clears the high end and tightens up the bass!

Rafa.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #35 on: 23 Oct 2017, 04:53 pm »

Enjoy your science.... and giving scientists a bad name amongst those who have ears to hear.

One thing you should know.  In the USA we freely interchange "polarity"  with the word "phase."   AC phase orientation is what the real issue is.


 

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #36 on: 23 Oct 2017, 04:56 pm »
Hahahahaha  :lol: this coming from the person saying: there is no science behind this, its unexplainable "magic", but trust me, I can hear it.

I'm out of here, good luck convincing the world you can hear a difference when you reverse fuses or that putting a small feather underneath a window clears the high end and tightens up the bass!

Rafa.

If they would sit down and listen with a GOOD system they will convince themselves.


006.9

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #37 on: 23 Oct 2017, 05:23 pm »
If they would sit down and listen with a GOOD system they will convince themselves.

Do you realize how arrogant this sounds? There are plenty of people with good ears and GOOD systems (many better than yours) who can't hear a difference when they reverse a power supply fuse or reverse polarity on an AC circuit.

Genez

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #38 on: 23 Oct 2017, 06:02 pm »
Do you realize how arrogant this sounds? There are plenty of people with good ears and GOOD systems (many better than yours) who can't hear a difference when they reverse a power supply fuse or reverse polarity on an AC circuit.


Sorry...  Its not arrogance.  I and others witness to it.   We have proven it by demonstrating it and its repeatable.

This may be the problem.  You have to have not just one fuse changed. For, if half the fuses in a system are reversed?   How are you going to detect only one being switched?  It requires isolating and testing for each component's AC orientation first... and making sure all components are consistent to one another.   

Then placing all the fuses in one direction. Then changing the entire system's fuses to the opposite direction. In the mean while? Having half?  Or a third of the fuses opposed to one another?   Nothing can be detected when only one fuse is reversed while too many are already hurting the system.

How do you isolate and test each component?   Get a voltmeter. Ground the black wire to the outlet ground, or a pipe.   Then test for the component chassis AC level with the red probe by touching a part of the chassis that is not insulated.  I find on the bottom the bolt for a transformer works, or removing one screw from the chassis and touching bare metal.  Some components have metal screws on the chassis that are not painted.


 In the USA... You'll need a cheater cord - some cheap computer cord with the ground prong removed allowing you to plug it in upside down in the outlet. 

Write down the voltage reading for when the AC cable is correctly plugged in.
   Then turn the plug upside down in the outlet and note the voltage reading.  The lower reading will be the correct AC orientation.  Some components differences will be more extreme than others. When the lower reading is established?   And, you find all units have been wired correctly?    Then make sure all fuses go in in one direction as the others.  The caps on standard fuses are marked in a consistent fashion.  One cap will have the ratings listed, and the other cap with usually have a symbol or more.

That's just the beginning.   Some fuse holders are snap in types at the IEC socket.  Others screw into a receptacle.  That needs some experimentation to determine how to get both kinds consistent in fuse orientation.

If all your components show the lowest voltage reading with the power cord plugged in as it should be?   Without having to be turned upside down?  Then you have something to work with in determining both fuse effect, and power cord effect.

Trouble is?  Even very good manufacturers do not always determine the correct AC orientation. Why?  I have witnessed to this with three high end pieces of equipment so far. One made in the USA.   One made in Germany.   And,  one made in the orient.  All high end companies.  Its frustrating to witness to. 

When I find that kind of problem?  Turning the fuse in the opposite direction to the other components fuses helps create a better balance in sound... though it would sound even better if the AC orientation was corrected to begin with. 

With my "reputable" German made component, I had to go inside and reverse the AC wires that lead out from the back of IEC socket running to the on and off switch in the front of the chassis.  It was hand assembled.  So, I can see how someone might get that confused if they were very tired that day.

Having the correct AC orientation within a component  does have a definite positive effect of the sound. 

The other problem can be.... people buy cables to compensate for harshness.  These will tend to dull the sound when things are being corrected.   



006.9

Re: Journey of my DAC 10
« Reply #39 on: 23 Oct 2017, 06:22 pm »
What exactly, in the actual physical world, IS a directional fuse? How do you make a fuse that passes AC "better" when inserted one way than in the other. Forget listening tests. Tell me at least in theory how to make one, even a bad one. How do you fabricate it and put the arrow on it? And how, when designing and fabricating, do you know the arrow goes one way and not the other?