what power cords to use for Reference 20

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rustydoglim

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #40 on: 8 Oct 2017, 05:19 pm »
Ok, regardless of the power cord, electricity goes into the power supply. I don't want to get into this debate about electrons on power cord.

But this is what's happening inside the amp - the amp board gets its clean (keeping AC low noise is important, but decent power strip filter will do the job) DC power from the capacitor board, which in turn gets DC power from the power supply, and the switching power supply does a whole bunch of stuff to your AC (chopping it up into pulses is one thing) - so still think that the movement of electrons on the power cord matters ? Hell no. This is like pumping gas into your car. How fast the fuel pump works have nothing to do with your car's performance.
Furthermore, there is an array of capacitors for the amp board.  That's your big reservoir of DC current.
And through our R&D, we found out that an array of capacitors in different sizes and polarity arrangement makes a difference in how fast the current gets discharged to supply the amp.

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #41 on: 8 Oct 2017, 06:15 pm »
Jason...

I think because my power cords are triple shielded (avoiding noise) may be the real reason....   Good ones do not have to cost 500.00. 

I just tried two different brand power cords running to my ST10.  Both sounded good.  One gave a clearer upper range sound.
The other cord was not yet burned in. Could it be they effect what we hear?


Reasonably priced Pangea power cords are what I have chosen and have been happy with.  Factory direct makes the prices come down... 
Pangea is Audio Advisors own brand... http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=25





Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #42 on: 9 Oct 2017, 01:09 am »
Michael Fremer (contributing editor of Stereophile Magazine) was giving a tour of his testing facility.  I cut to the section where he began to speak about
what power cords can produce...


https://youtu.be/H07NpWk_Xf8?t=14m51s

rustydoglim

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #43 on: 9 Oct 2017, 10:44 am »
We are an engineering company.  Sure, I never say that you won't hear any difference with an expensive power cord, but the effect is not what we can "understand" and we are not in the business of making "subjective" hearing test.  What I objected is the unscientific theory people put out.  Usually this is the case since nobody can explain the difference in hearing, they made up some theory. 
I suspect it is due to better shielding on expensive cord. Perhaps we can try to wrap a copper foil on the standard power cord and let one of you guys evaluate.

By the way, his video also mentioned about vinyl and CD. Some people swear that vinyl will always sound better than digital music, and there is no such thing. Mark Waldrep from AIX is an expert recording engineer and he gave a very good explanation. It all depends on how it was recorded.  Basically we need to compare apple to apple. 

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #44 on: 9 Oct 2017, 05:12 pm »
I have a theory as well.   Sure they have to try to come up with an explanation as to why it sounds better.  Better to say they do not yet know why it does.  But that when certain things are followed the better results can be demonstrated and repeated.

I believe also there may be an issue with the use of solid core wire or combination with litz wire is at work, as well.  Stranded wires that are in close proximity develop a type of noise to the sound as the current is passed through.   Litz wire, or solid core, eliminate this "undefined" noise. 

Records are mixed differently than digital.  Records have to limit the dynamic range to prevent the stylus from jumping out of the groove for one. And, usually the bass gets mixed in mono to keep the tracking under control.   And,  from what I understand,  the closer to the center of the record the mix has to be altered to accommodate what takes place with the cartridge interaction. 

Records always do something to the sound and its often times a pleasant form of alteration on the better records made.   Digital when recorded well can leave the performance bare and naked... On a good system, digital offers the most realism possible.  I am a musician.  Having heard actual live performances up close allows me to know that what digital causes to come out of the speakers is much closer to what I used to hear when playing live.   Playing with a rubber surround holding the stylus in place automatically alters and modifies the actual sound of what was recorded. 

RafaPolit

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #45 on: 10 Oct 2017, 04:57 pm »
We are an engineering company.  Sure, I never say that you won't hear any difference with an expensive power cord, but the effect is not what we can "understand" and we are not in the business of making "subjective" hearing test.  What I objected is the unscientific theory people put out.  Usually this is the case since nobody can explain the difference in hearing, they made up some theory. 
I suspect it is due to better shielding on expensive cord. Perhaps we can try to wrap a copper foil on the standard power cord and let one of you guys evaluate.

By the way, his video also mentioned about vinyl and CD. Some people swear that vinyl will always sound better than digital music, and there is no such thing. Mark Waldrep from AIX is an expert recording engineer and he gave a very good explanation. It all depends on how it was recorded.  Basically we need to compare apple to apple.

And this, on top of great sounding equipment, is why I stick to NuPrime: no bullsh*t technical nonsense, but true scientific approach to selling your products!

Thanks for chiming in here, I'm getting tired of all this Voodoo claiming to change the flow of electrons to produce better sound!  WTF! :(

Thanks Jason!

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #46 on: 10 Oct 2017, 05:03 pm »
And this, on top of great sounding equipment, is why I stick to NuPrime: no bullsh*t technical nonsense, but true scientific approach to selling your products!

Thanks for chiming in here, I'm getting tired of all this Voodoo claiming to change the flow of electrons to produce better sound!  WTF! :(

Thanks Jason!

Forget the scientific explanations for a moment...     

What if?  You simply get better sound and can not explain why?   Not having the scientific reason will invalidate the improvement?

Is that what you wanted to express?

RafaPolit

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #47 on: 10 Oct 2017, 05:21 pm »
What I want to express is that if  the company that makes them has no scientific reason, then the result is a fluke and they cannot guarantee nor claim the improvements they are selling.  If somethings improves sound, a manufacturing company either finds a scientific solution and approach to it, or its not really repeatable.

What I want to express is that a lot of companies are willing to charge you $1000 for a foot of cable claiming all sorts of wonders.  And I know how most minds think: since you already spent that money, you would feel foolish to admit to spending all that money and not having any improvement.  So, you start thinking to yourself: wait, maybe it is improving, I think I can hear more brights, tighter bass, etc.

What I want to express is that you really can't, but your mind will trick you into thinking that you do to justify that you just spent the value of a car for two meters of cable.

That's what I want to express and have done so since we started these discussions.

What I want to express is that if you are happy with that, good for you.  But I'm not spending my money until I get some real scientific logic behind it.

Lets use the car analogy more: if I tell you to come to my gas station, pay 10x the value of gas for MY gas, which has untold unproven improvements that will make your car run smoother and prolong the life of your motor.  I cannot explain why, nor can I prove it, but please, just believe me, and, of course, pay me 10x the value.  Would you do it?  If you do, let me know where you live, I may actually change my profession. 

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #48 on: 10 Oct 2017, 05:50 pm »
There is a point of no return.. How can a thousand dollar cable make your two hundred dollar amp sound better than it should?  Its nonsense after a certain level of improvement is reached.  What we need are competent cables.  Not "effects" cables.  I found that Audio Advisor's Pangea line makes a very honest, high quality power cable for a fraction the others are asking.

Problem is this.   There are millionaires out there who want to fancy themselves as having the best in the world.  They think this life is all there is to be and want it all now. So?  Some manufacturers will cater to this exclusive crowd.  A crowd that many times want to feel they can make the common man envious of them.  For them , they get the twenty thousand dollar cables (that no one else ever gets to hear.) Obviously, the manufacturer only sells a limited number.  But, with such a huge profit margin, some can chalk it up as a good second income while they keep a real job somewhere else.

There is an ENVY market out there!  For example... in the 80's?  When CD players first came out they mostly sounded like crap.  But?   Some found some ways to improve what was being offered. Fine.  But others began creating units and charging three thousand dollars for the ENVY crown so they could claim having the best in the world. Yet?  It was crap sounding by today's standards of excellent DAC's will produce at a fraction of what they paid. 

Price serves a purpose.  Sometimes those who wish to be the envy of the world are willing to pay a ENVY tax, and pay much more than everyone else for something that will become obsolete in a few years only to be replaced by something at a fraction of the cost that sounds better. 

rustydoglim

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #49 on: 10 Oct 2017, 07:13 pm »
I will use the following actual customers example to illustrate that it is very important to avoid "Buyer Remorse"

Case 1: Years ago, it was discovered that Lexicon put a case over the exact OPPO device, with a change in power supply, and then mark up something like 10X the cost. A customer who bought that also owns NuForce amp and commented that he is ok paying for it because he likes the brand. Ok, if you have the money and you think that the small improvement is worth 10X, that's ok. Lots of people pay more than $10,000 for the Apple Watch 1, gee, what do you do with it ?

Case 2: Just few months ago, a DAC-10H customer wrote to me saying that his dealer talked him into buying a $2000 speaker cable and he can't tell the difference.

My point is telling the truth is important. And then let people decide.  We always tell people that the performance of Ref 20 is incremental over ST-10, but that X% is enough to justify 2 to 3X the price.
BTW, it is a known scientific fact that litz wire carries high frequency better due to transmission principles. You can buy industrial litz transmission cables for cheap.

Armaegis

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #50 on: 10 Oct 2017, 11:39 pm »
If I had enough loose money lying around that I could drop $2k on a power cord and not blink if it didn't produce a change, yeah sure whatever.

If $2k were doable with a bit of saving and my system costs $4k in total... you know what, two grand buys quite a few concerts and a nice evening out on the town for the whole year.

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #51 on: 10 Oct 2017, 11:55 pm »

BTW, it is a known scientific fact that litz wire carries high frequency better due to transmission principles. You can buy industrial litz transmission cables for cheap.

Where can you find it?  I could only find wire manufacturers who would sell in bulk minimums of great amounts when all I needed was about forty feet. 

Litz wire is more about than just about the high frequencies. Its ability to preserve the leading edge and time arrival seems also to be a plus.

rustydoglim

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #52 on: 13 Oct 2017, 10:35 pm »
There are suppliers on alibaba.com that sell in a spool that is cheap enough to give it a try:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Pure-Silver-9999-Stranded-Litz-Wire_60529490981.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.226.6d3da21uZnXLo
I didn't look close enough whether it is a good fit.  Seems pretty good, someone could make a speaker cable with nice connector and mark up 1000%.  $0.09 per meter, minimum order 610 meters (a lot more than your 40 feet, but hey, it is very cheap to get the whole spool)

Armaegis

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #53 on: 14 Oct 2017, 01:57 am »
There are suppliers on alibaba.com that sell in a spool that is cheap enough to give it a try:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Pure-Silver-9999-Stranded-Litz-Wire_60529490981.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.226.6d3da21uZnXLo
I didn't look close enough whether it is a good fit.  Seems pretty good, someone could make a speaker cable with nice connector and mark up 1000%.  $0.09 per meter, minimum order 610 meters (a lot more than your 40 feet, but hey, it is very cheap to get the whole spool)


Is that actually per meter? because I think that makes it cheaper than raw silver...

In any event, starting at 26awg you'll need at least 16 wires to bring down to 14awg if you're making speaker cables.

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #54 on: 14 Oct 2017, 03:51 am »
Is that actually per meter? because I think that makes it cheaper than raw silver...

In any event, starting at 26awg you'll need at least 16 wires to bring down to 14awg if you're making speaker cables.

Copper litz sounds fantastic in the right system.  Not sure what silver would cause. What I have been listening with for my speakers is the equivalent of somewhere around 12-10awg.   The 26awg may be good for rewiring tweeters to the crossover.  I appreciate knowing its industrial litz I should be looking for.   Just having the thin silk serve wrap causes the least coloration.  Litz's sound can be manipulated by its wrap.  Its why the "Ground Control" pigtails are made from both litz and bits of shrink wrap.   Leave the Litz naked except for a few pieces of small shrink wrap to hold the hot and return together to keep the cables organized per speaker.  It will look ugly,  but surprisingly neutral sounding.  Headphone cable maker Q-Audio covers its cables with silk.  No plastic wraps.  I had one set of Litz speakers cables covered in a rubberized covering and it dulled the sound. 

kaka89

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #55 on: 15 Oct 2017, 01:53 am »
I used to believe cable won't make much difference, but I recently upgraded my speaker cable from $20 (cheapest I can find in Hong Kong) to $40/pair (a pre-made HIFI cable from Taiwan), and I can hear a huge difference between two. I am sure the difference is measurable.

The old cheap cable is a lot louder in HF but missing mid range, it felt like the tweeter was doing all the work. The new cable is a lot more balance than the old one. When I hook up both cable to my left and right speaker to compare them at the same time, the old cable is much louder in HF and I even doubted my new cable wasn't making any sound!

Sciences tell us cable cannot make difference to a certain range of frequency because it is a passive device. From this experience, it tells me it is not true. Manufacture can make a cable that sounds different. Of course, I was comparing a very poor cable to a solid cable, I am not sure the difference would be that much on cable that cost > $500.

https://imgur.com/a/DxjOf



I am using Nuprime DAC-9/STA-9 with Focal 926. I once thought the brightness was coming from the gears because both brands are known to be "bright". It troubles me for a while until I tried this new cable, I am finally satisfy with the combo now :D

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #56 on: 15 Oct 2017, 03:35 am »
I noticed they were smart and marked the speaker cable for direction.  Once it burns in it will become directional.  I have accidentally reversed direction of my speaker cables and heard an immediate difference.  If your system is transparent enough you will notice these sort of things.

I am assuming that your new cable is solid core?  From what I can see from their web page, its copper core with silver plating.  (thank God for Google Translate!)   Wink2

kaka89

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #57 on: 15 Oct 2017, 05:46 am »
I noticed they were smart and marked the speaker cable for direction.  Once it burns in it will become directional.  I have accidentally reversed direction of my speaker cables and heard an immediate difference.  If your system is transparent enough you will notice these sort of things.

I am assuming that your new cable is solid core?  From what I can see from their web page, its copper core with silver plating.  (thank God for Google Translate!)   Wink2

My cable is SP-550 (http://www.mps96.com.cn/prod_view.aspx?TypeId=108&Id=336&FId=t3:108:3)
It is copper core, no silver plating because it is their cheapest cable. I choose the cheapest model because I wasn't expecting cable can bring much difference to my system. I was wrong.

Most of their copper cable do have silver plating, starting around USD $100. Maybe I will try them someday.

Nuprime's pricing is very reasonable compared to these cables... :)

Genez

Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #58 on: 15 Oct 2017, 06:42 am »
My speaker cables are not silver plated and sound just fine.   I just thought yours might have the silver.  Copper is supposed to sound warmer.

slash71

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Re: what power cords to use for Reference 20
« Reply #59 on: 15 Oct 2017, 03:42 pm »
I used to believe cable won't make much difference, but I recently upgraded my speaker cable from $20 (cheapest I can find in Hong Kong) to $40/pair (a pre-made HIFI cable from Taiwan), and I can hear a huge difference between two. I am sure the difference is measurable.

The old cheap cable is a lot louder in HF but missing mid range, it felt like the tweeter was doing all the work. The new cable is a lot more balance than the old one. When I hook up both cable to my left and right speaker to compare them at the same time, the old cable is much louder in HF and I even doubted my new cable wasn't making any sound!

Sciences tell us cable cannot make difference to a certain range of frequency because it is a passive device. From this experience, it tells me it is not true. Manufacture can make a cable that sounds different. Of course, I was comparing a very poor cable to a solid cable, I am not sure the difference would be that much on cable that cost > $500.

https://imgur.com/a/DxjOf



I am using Nuprime DAC-9/STA-9 with Focal 926. I once thought the brightness was coming from the gears because both brands are known to be "bright". It troubles me for a while until I tried this new cable, I am finally satisfy with the combo now :D

Hi all,

same as @kaka89 I recently roolout my previous  speaker cables with these ones:



I like the combination of DAC-10 + ST-10 combo, it plays very well (I love it) before the change but, with new wiring, I perceive a "beautiful" difference in sounds, instruments and voices that match and give more space and are more in tune overall.
bass are stump!   :) nice work ..

@RafaPolit :  no scientific reason to hear this.. don't worry ..