[Bigfishhk]

Anyone here using tube amps and ProAc speakers?

I am considering picking up a pair of Response 2.5's. I heard them in the past briefly with solid state amps and liked them. I did wonder how tight the bass was though but didn't have time to hear them further.

Currently I have all tubed Rogue 99 magnum pre amp and Rogue Stereo 100 (100 watts per ch) power amp.

The potentially 'compromised' placement of these rear ported speakers in my system would not be ideal being around 18-20" from the wall and quite close to side walls- see pics

if you have had experience running these speakers maybe you could lend me your thoughts on pairing with the Rogue amps and with the 'compromised' placement in terms of affecting the bass and the imaging.

And in general how would you describe bass quality of these speakers?
many thanks

Tom

[mresseguie]

Anyone?

[hibuckhobby]

The placement is going to impact the bass far more than the topology of the amplifier.
If the rear port is too close to the wall, it will reinforce the bass in certain frequencies.
A solid state amp will not change that.  You have excellent gear in the Rogue equipment.
Try a pillow behind the speaker if you feel the bass is compromised by location.
regards,
Hibuck....

[twitch54]

in a word ...... that speaker placement is horrible.

[sunnydaze]

I completely agree with hibuck and twitch.

I once owned the Response 2.5 and I couldn't believe the big potent bass they put out -- especially considering their size.  And I had them out in free space, in a large room, with lots of air around them.  (view my avatar to see how they were placed)

I own a Rogue Atlas Magnum so I can state with confidence that your Rogue amp will drive them beautifully.  With the 2.5 positioned properly the pairing would produce big, tight, impactful bass.  Your amp is not the problem.  Your placement is.  I'd put big bux on you having serious LF problems --> bloated and overpowering.

[sunnydaze]

Regarding imaging......

Big rack in middle and on the speaker plane means you'll likely get a confused center image and inadequate center fill.

Tightness on the wall behind them means depth and layering will virtually be non-existent.

Tightness on side walls means you'll likely get much smearing d/t reflected sound, and there will be little imaging outside speaker boundaries, if at all.

Out in space, the 2.5 are able to do these things admirably.

[Bigfishhk]

Regarding imaging......

Big rack in middle and on the speaker plane means you'll likely get a confused center image and inadequate center fill.

Also, tightness on the wall behind them means depth and layering will virtually be non-existent.

Out in space, the 2.5 are able to do these things admirably.

Agreed placement is compromised but for practical reasons in my NY apt,  it is what it is! I can pull the whole rack back 4",  and the speakers forward by 4" so they are not level to each other to improve a bit.

Given your experience with R2.5. do you think that approx 20" placement from the wall behind will be problematic and would foam plugs/ pillows be some sort of remedy? 

I have the opportunity to audition a pair and buy or return if they don't work out. However returning them would end up costing me several hundred bucks so I'm doing some research!

thanks for your insights.

Tom

[roscoe65]

I don't think you are going to get any appreciable improvement in this system as it currently is arranged.  To say the placement is "compromised" is an understatement.  You have about $6,000 of equipment in a two-dollar room.  You are also asking about bass quality with a subwoofer located just off the to right of the system - I am confused.

Before you spend money on new speakers you should address the room, otherwise you're pissing away money.  I'm not sure about how much control over the room you have, but this is what I would do:

1.  Empty the room as much as possible to give yourself clear workspace.  Add back in only the necessary furnishings that define the room's function, e.g., sofa, desk and chair, etc.  Get rid of the extra speakers and other equipment and remove the guitar from the wall (for now).  You want to start with a clean slate.

2.  I would ditch the TV unit and wall-mount the TV.  I would then use a lowboy style equipment rack that does not reach the level of the tweeters.  It should be as narrow as reasonably feasible. 

3.  Install room treatments in corner areas of the alcove.  This will help counteract the near-wall speaker placement and tame bass buildup in the corners.

4.  Pull the speakers at least a few inches into the room.  Even giving them a bit more space will help.

Frankly in your room I would think about using small monitors with a pair of subwoofers.  You can separate the imaging and soundstaging needs from the bass needs.

[roscoe65]

Several replies were posted while I was writing my last post.  Given that this is a NYC apartment with the accepted challenges, my advice would continue to be to go with a smaller standmount and one or two high quality subwoofers such as rythmik.  You will stand a better chance of controlling bass in your challenging space.

I would also commit to near-field positioning for serious listening.  You'll find it more satisfying in your circumstances.

[sunnydaze]

Given your experience with R2.5. do you think that approx 20" placement from the wall behind will be problematic and would foam plugs/ pillows be some sort of remedy? 

Having not used them that tight on walls, hard for me to say.   I do know they put out prodigious bass, so based on that, I'd still be leery of tight placement.

I typically see used 2.5's in the $1500 to $2100 range.   They are a good speaker but IMO, based on my experience with them and other speakers, you can do better and cheaper.   By "better" I mean sonically and in getting a more appropriate room fit.

If it were me, I'd consider other options.  I'd be seriously targeting front ported speakers.  I'd also be looking at something smaller -- monitors or smaller floor standing 2-ways (or single driver, or coaxial driver), sized up to mid thigh or hip.  No bigger.  Something like VA Bach or the old Coincident Conquest or the smaller JM Reynauds (Trente, Twins, Appegione).  To just name a few,  many other good options.

Also look into Omegas.  Like virtually all speakers, they perform best with a lil air around them, but in my experience still sound great in tight quarters.   I have a pair of 7 XRS in a 10 x 10 room, tight on walls.  Tone is good, but staging / imaging is probably compromised.    They will never match slam, weight and scale of 2.5, but they are coherent, lightning quick, resolving, and image like crazy.  Completely different speaker that presses different buttons.

I just throw these out as "for examples".   I have owned or heard them all, and keep in mind my recs are based on my tastes, and what I feel is more appropriate for your room size. 

(what are your room dimensions?   Looks smallish and tight in photo)

If you are set on a "bigger" speaker here's a local pair.  Never heard them but they are front ported and based on all the buzz, I'd consider them.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-tekton-design-enzo-2017-02-03-speakers-11360-bayside-ny

Reported to produce big bass.   May not be "room appropriate" for you.  Nor "neighbor appropriate" either....living in NYC apartment!

It's rear ported but you may want to consider  Silverline Sonatina.  I owned it and loved it.  It is sweet, musical and immersive, easy to drive, and physically smaller than the 2.5.   I much prefer it sonically to the 2.5.  But that is my taste, others may disagree.  They have gotten ridiculously cheap on the used markets, especially the early versions (v1, v2), and IMO well worth the $$.

This pair at $675 was an absolute steal!

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-silverline-audio-sonatina-2017-01-06-speakers-75202-dallas-tx?refsource=hifishark

Here's a local pair ..... you can take the LIRR to check them out.

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649332009-silverline-audio-lafolia-sonatina-sr17-5-speaker-surround-system/

He doesn't state v1 or v2, or if he's willing to split up the package, but I'd look into it.
(I don't see pics of the Sonatina but the Sonata appears to be v1)
A good price on Sonatina v1 is about $1000.   I'd take this in a heartbeat over the 2.5.  But again, that's me.

[sunnydaze]

all good points from Roscoe!     

[sunnydaze]

Another highly regarded speaker.  Front ported.  Reported to work very well in "smallish / medium" rooms.  Bass is not overpowering.  VG price.  Local to OP.  No direct personal experience.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-aerial-accoustics-model-6-outstanding-3-way-spk-2017-02-05-speakers-11050-2468-port-washington-ny--2

[Bigfishhk]

Several replies were posted while I was writing my last post.  Given that this is a NYC apartment with the accepted challenges, my advice would continue to be to go with a smaller standmount and one or two high quality subwoofers such as rythmik.  You will stand a better chance of controlling bass in your challenging space.

I would also commit to near-field positioning for serious listening.  You'll find it more satisfying in your circumstances.

thanks for all the feedback.. I have a Rythmik sub. Hoped to get rid of it to free up space and work with just 2 near full range speakers. I maybe need to rethink my approach.

[Bigfishhk]

Another highly regarded speaker.  Front ported.  Reported to work very well in "smallish / medium" rooms.  Bass is not overpowering.  VG price.  Local to OP.  No direct personal experience.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-aerial-accoustics-model-6-outstanding-3-way-spk-2017-02-05-speakers-11050-2468-port-washington-ny--2

again thanks for the helpful feedback..I will take a look.

[sunnydaze]

What are your room dimensions and listening preferences?

Knowing them, it's easier to provide more appropriate recs and feedback.

[Bigfishhk]

the listening area opens up into a living - dining space. the overall total space is 20ft deep x 30 ft wide (600 sq ft). the ceiling height over the Tv/ listening area is 10 ft and it opens up to 14ft so the average is 20 x 30 x 12 ft so it's quite a big open space.

where the listening position is the speakers are 7ft apart and about 9 ft from listening position.

I listen to it all- blues, electronic, rock, pop, dub reggae, folk and classical..

My current speakers are Salk Song Towers which are very good.  However they don't quite have the heft, esp in the bass for my space. See pics below

[Bigfishhk]

If it were me, I'd consider other options.  I'd be seriously targeting front ported speakers.  I'd also be looking at something smaller -- monitors or smaller floor standing 2-ways (or single driver, or coaxial driver), sized up to mid thigh or hip.  No bigger.  Something like VA Bach or the old Coincident Conquest or the smaller JM Reynauds (Trente, Twins, Appegione).  To just name a few,  many other good options.

ANY THOUGHTS ON TRIANGLE CELIUS 202'S?
Friend has pair he wants to sell me! they are front ported and nice sounding. Not however the huge spacious sound of the Proacs!!

[sunnydaze]

No direct experience with Triangle.  I shy away from metallic tweeters.  Just my preference.  I tend to favor body, richness, musicality and tone over hyper-detail and hi-fi'ish artifacts.  Not saying Triangles are the latter, I just surmise they don't fit my preferences based on all the comments / reviews I've read over the years.

But you are able to personally listen to them.  Let your ears decide.

[sunnydaze]

Just saw your pics.....nice looking place!    Tall ceilings, open plan.  Love it.   

What part of town?   I lived in the West Village for 10 years.

Your space is much bigger than I imagined from initial pic.  So I now sense it can accommodate something bigger than I initially thought.  But you gotta be able to bring speakers forward towards listener!  Any reason you can't?   I don't see a doorway.  It doesn't look like an area of foot traffic that would be blocked.  It doesn't look like anything would be blocked.  TBH, I see no practical reason to not bring them closer.  Is it strictly a visual preference or WAF issue?

Personally, I'd love to have your space.  I'd have a ball playing around with different speakers and placements.  Then again, I'm single so I can do whatever I want.

Looks to me like you have plenty of room to bring speakers towards listener.   If possible, I'd locate them about where the box is on the L wall.....right about where the half wall ends.  That would eliminate any sidewall reflections on that side.   You'd still have a R sidewall, but it would actually be further away than speaker's current location in that kindof "alcove".  Maybe just a GIK panel (or something similar) on that wall.  May not even need any treatment. 

This should really open up your soundstage.  Depth, width and image secificity should improve noticeably.   It would also help relieve any bass overload problems.

Increasing speaker distance to front wall means you will be closer to drivers.  This means complex multi-driver speakers will not work so well.  They need some distance to listener to blend properly, and produce a coherent soundfield. 

This more nearfield listening position means more direct sound / less reflected sound ==> more purity, less smearing.  Take the room out of play.  You may also find you don't need as large a speaker as when you sit further away.  You may be able to put your sub back into the area where your speakers have vacated.

Personally, I would try this first with current gear before buying another speaker.   Never heard Salks but based on their reputation, I'm fearful that the options you are considering may be a lateral or backwards move......at least in terms of upper bass on up.

If you are able to position the Proacs as I've suggested, what is distance from baffle to wall behind them?  To my eye it looks about 3 or 4 feet?  If so, there's a good chance they will work nicely.

Are you saying that when you use your Rhythmic sub with your Songtowers your have indadequate LF response?

[roscoe65]

the listening area opens up into a living - dining space. the overall total space is 20ft deep x 30 ft wide (600 sq ft). the ceiling height over the Tv/ listening area is 10 ft and it opens up to 14ft so the average is 20 x 30 x 12 ft so it's quite a big open space.

where the listening position is the speakers are 7ft apart and about 9 ft from listening position.

I listen to it all- blues, electronic, rock, pop, dub reggae, folk and classical..

My current speakers are Salk Song Towers which are very good.  However they don't quite have the heft, esp in the bass for my space. See pics below

That image puts things in a different perspective.  You are trying to fill a pretty large volume of space.  Monitors may not fit the bill.  At the same time, you need to be neighbor-friendly.  Those two factors tell me you should be looking at sensitive floor standers.  I would also be looking at changing the layout a bit.  I think you can do this without sacrificing much space.

Speakers:

I am biased, but I would look at the new Omega 1.5 way speakers.  These run about 97 or 98 dB efficiency with good midbass output.  A lot of time when we want "bass weight" we really want midbass weight.  Louis offers a 30 home trial, and since he is just up the tracks in Connecticut you may even be able to audition them (there are also a few of us locally who own Omega speakers).  The advantage of these is that you don't have to crank them to 11 to get dynamics and impact.

Layout:

I would treat the small alcove as a built-in shelving unit.  I do this in my own living room and have painted it dark as a background to my HT setup.  It looks great.  Run the shelves from the sidewall to sidewall of the alcove.  It will give you a lot of shelf space and allow you to wall mount some room treatments behind the speakers.  Your room is very big and very live.  You will probably benefit from treating the wall in the immediate area of the speakers, including the sidewall next to the left speaker.

I would also pull the speakers out in front of the new shelving so they are in front of the alcove.  This will allow you to move the speakers a bit to the right, which will minimize the interaction with the left half wall and also allow for a slightly wider placement.  You'll likely also want to treat the right corner.