Narrowing soundstage with toe-in?

rockadanny · « **on:** 13 Oct 2016, 06:50 pm »

Listening near field I'd like to narrow my soundstage a but without moving my seat or speakers. Can this be done strictly with speaker toe-in adjustment? Perhaps with more toe-in?

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 07:01 pm »

It may be done w/toein, in my experience w/dynamic speakers toein made the image stronger but not the soundstage deeper, if the room is wide not toein may enlarge the soundstage according the speaker ymmv.

Folsom · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 07:37 pm »

Too much will simply give you comb filtering.

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 07:38 pm »

I listen to vinyl in my studio via the near field method. Toe in (probably depending on speakers) will connect the left to the right channel for proper musical "sweeps" and other types of stereo fun. I'm not really sure if you can change the sound field, but you can change the sweet spot. I have mine set up so that 2 people can hear almost perfect stereo. Yes, it can be done.

If you start playing with the toe in angle keeping your present sitting position, you are going to discover that there really is only a small range of toe in angle that is ideal, other angles will leave you wanting more.

Wayner

Folsom · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 07:45 pm »

I think the short answer is you'd have to get closer.

Wayner · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 08:29 pm »

It also depends on how far apart they are now....

rajacat · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 08:34 pm »

I have a system with 18" wave guides, compression tweeters, distributed bass and a 15" mid woofer. Among wave guide fans it's assumed that a 45 degree toe-in is best for imaging. I go against the establishment and prefer that the tweeters fire to the outside of my ears on the respective sides. I find that the imaging is actually better and the soundfield is more immersive than with extreme toe-in.
Maybe this has something to do with the size of my room (34' x14'-6" x 7'-8"). There is about 10' between the L and R drivers. I have a non tested speculative theory that perhaps the drivers are best pointed at the opposite rear corners thereby allowing the longest room dimension to be of some influence thereby reducing the effects of the side walls. According to this theory a square room would have the drivers pointed 45 degrees.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #7 on:** 13 Oct 2016, 09:34 pm »

Quote from: rockadanny on 13 Oct 2016, 06:50 pm

Listening near field I'd like to narrow my soundstage a but without moving my seat or speakers. Can this be done strictly with speaker toe-in adjustment? Perhaps with more toe-in?

It depends on your tweeters dispersion and how much you already have them toed in.

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Oct 2016, 12:13 pm »

Quote from: Wind Chaser on 13 Oct 2016, 09:34 pm

It depends on your tweeters dispersion and how much you already have them toed in.

+1

I listen critically near-field across the 13 foot room width and far-field from my desk chair located 6 feet further straight back.

One pair is set up 10 feet apart, 5 feet forward of the chair, with the speakers aimed to cross roughly 18 inches in front of the listening spot (severe toe-in, the effect is almost a blend of far-field and headphone). Any further spread/moving forward/toeing in and the center of the soundstage disappears (recording dependent).

My other pair is set up 8 feet apart, 7 feet forward of the chair, with the speakers aimed directly at the listening spot. Again, any further spread/moving forward/toeing in causes the center of the soundstage to disappear (recording dependent).

Compared to near-field, far-field is only acceptable for casual listening. It's just good sound at the opposite end of the room, no imaging.

rockadanny · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Oct 2016, 11:26 pm »

Quote

Compared to near-field, far-field is only acceptable for casual listening. It's just good sound at the opposite end of the room, no imaging.

Exactly what I am discovering in my new room, no matter how I set up. So I have settled on near field. It is taking some time to get used to this, coming from a far/medium field environment in my old space. Specifically with hard-panned left/right stereo jazz recordings from the 50s/60s. Especially when Coltrane blows as he is so powerful - I wish they would have consistently stuck whomever was soloing in the middle of the image. Distracting. I disliked it in my old setup as well. Just seems more pronounced, harder to ignore, in the near field being closer to the speakers.

rockadanny · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Oct 2016, 11:31 pm »

Quote

If you start playing with the toe in angle keeping your present sitting position, you are going to discover that there really is only a small range of toe in angle that is ideal, other angles will leave you wanting more.

I found this out last night. I am set up in an equilateral triangle with not much room to push the speakers further apart so that is why I was wondering if I could accomplish via more toe-in. They are only slightly toed-in and that seems to be the best position, all considered.

rockadanny · « **Reply #11 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 03:04 pm »

Kablam!

I've been fussing with my new setup since we moved in four months ago. Sound was OK, even good at times, but always bothered by some anomaly. Continuously schlepping speakers and subs, moving seat forward, back, even up! (on risers) yet never fully satisfied ... until last night. Yanked the risers out from under the chair and moved it to precisely/exactly (measured carefully this time) equilateral triangle near field and ... BAM! It all locked in and I am in heaven! Sounds better than ever before, even better than my old place. Balanced sound top to bottom with nice soundstage width and depth. FINALLY! BAM!

It is SO weird sitting near field (can see my knees at bottom of picture). I must keep my eyes closed while listening until I get used to being so close visually to my speakers.

Mains placed via Cardas room setup method; and nearly 7 foot equilateral triangle; with excellent GIK treatments all around (picture below shows seat pulled way out from current position).

ArthurDent · « **Reply #12 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 04:10 pm »

Cool rockad, but I still don't see a chair for me, or any of your other AC buddies ?

rockadanny · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 04:24 pm »

Ha! Well, audiophilism can be a lonely hobby

Actually, there is an additional chair behind the catbird seat, set up just right for a wall-of-sound experience. It is about the same position as you see in the second picture above.

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #14 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 06:19 pm »

Quote

Kablam

Why dont you try the same ratio but move the system to match where your chair is in the last photo. WARNING -- Hold on to your brain cells.

Rocket Ronny

rockadanny · « **Reply #15 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 06:41 pm »

Ugh! What a GREAT idea! Oh man, why didn't that occur to me before. Thanks!

mcgsxr · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 06:41 pm »

Near field can be excellent indeed.

I sat 8 feet from my Maggies for a year. THAT was imposing when I opened my eyes, but was the best distance I could conjure.

You might want to play around with the placement of your panels on the wall too, to suit the new locations. I would experiment with floor placement first and then optimize to save holes in the walls!

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #17 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 07:12 pm »

If I take the Cardas recommendations according to their calculators I would be 82 inches from the tweeters and they would be 82 inches apart. I will try that but dang they will be in my personal space!

Right now I have them 96 inches apart and 108 inches from my ears so w can peacefully coexist. So this will be a leap of faith for me to try but relatively easy to do.

Did you notice you turned down the volume with them so close?

rockadanny · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 07:29 pm »

Yes, turned down the volume at least -3db, which is a very nice benefit.
VERY close, I know. Scary close, but cannot argue with the results to my ears/brain.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Oct 2016, 07:30 pm »

Do the speakers disappear?