Floorstandin Keelin?

audioslave · « **on:** 15 Jul 2004, 07:09 pm »

Mike,
I just spoke to Lonewolf because I told him I was interested in some new floorstanders. I currently have the Paradigm Studio 100 V.2 and am looking for something different. He asked me to talk to you about the new floorstanding Keelin. Could do you tell me about it? I listened to his pair of bookshelf Keelin's and they sounded good. Could you tell me what the price is and some specifications? It would also be great if you could post a picture like you did with the Floorstanding Eilish. Thanks!

Shamrock Audio · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Jul 2004, 08:46 pm »

Quote from: audioslave

Mike,
I just spoke to Lonewolf because I told him I was interested in some new floorstanders. I currently have the Paradigm Studio 100 V.2 and am looking for something different. He asked me to talk to you about the new floorstanding Keelin. Could do you tell me about it? I listened to his pair of bookshelf Keelin's and they sounded good. Could you tell me what the price is and some specifications? It would also be great if you could post a picture like you did with the Floorstanding Eilish. Thanks!

Hi,

I haven't completed the floorstanding version of the Keelin. There are a few things about the Keelin that make doing so more complicated than the Eilish.

Placing the tweeter at ear height is far more important to an MTM than to an MT. While it sounds simple enough to make the base an appropriate height, this will force the purchase of a second sheet of veneer for every set we make. This presents us with 2 problems:

1.) Matching the two sheets of veneer.

2.) The additional cost that will have to be passed on to you.

In terms of #1, for cosmetic (grain matching), purposes we follow the grain of the veneer up one side, across the top, and down the other side of the cabinet. This assumes that we leave the bottom of the floorstander unfinished - something we don't do on our other cabinets. However, we only have a total of 96" of linear grain to work with. Because of the requirement to have the tweeter of the Keelin at an average ear level of say, 36", the total cabinet height would be about 46 1/2" tall. It would require an additional 7 1/4" to cover the top, and then another 46 1/2" to the floor. This requires 100.25" where only 96" are available. While there are options for dealing with this, such as shortening the cabinets or using a solid wood endcap, none are very desireable for one reason or another.

As for #2, the requirement for 2 sheets of veneer (no matter how we solve #1), combined with a substantial increase in the cost to ship will obviously be passed on to you. This would likely push the price of a set of floorstanding Keelin speakers close to the $1k mark, perhaps over. Now, I have to be real up-front and say that I don't view the Keelin as a $1,000 speaker. I can sleep at night selling the Keelin as a well-engineered standmounted MTM at $750. I don't think I could sell the speaker for $1k or so, and remain at peace.

In response to those who brought up the whole floorstanding issue in the first place, I recently offered a poll so folks could have a say in the products we make for them.

We asked:

"Would you purchase a set of Eilish or Keelin speakers if they were floorstanding? Comments welcome!"

The poll options were:

a.) Yes, that would make all the difference to me.
b.) No, that makes no difference to me.
c.) Maybe, but I have other concerns. (Please comment)

As I write this there have been 512 people who have viewed that thread. Of that 512, 10 people have bothered to answer. Of that 10, 7 answered a.) Yes, that would make all the difference to me.

We therefore developed and introduced a floorstanding Eilish. We tried hard to keep the cost down and even offered introductory pricing that is only $100 over the standmounted version. Do date, we have not sold a single pair of floorstanding Eilish speakers, and in fact have only received 1 phone-call and 0 other inquiries regarding them.

It is not my intent to spew any sour grapes. Rather, we make every effort to invest our resources wisely. When we make what at this point appears to be an unwise decision, that means that we aren't able to do something else. So far, it appears as though there are merely a few people who think it would be a good idea for us to make floorstanders as an option. Not good enough for them to spend their money on, but good enough for us to.

For now, the Keelin will remain a standmounted speaker for the reasons outlined above. I apologize if this disappoints anyone. However, I don't see it as being a $1k speaker, and there doesn't appear to be any real interest anyway.

audioslave · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Jul 2004, 09:55 pm »

Thanks for the detailed and very honest reply, Mike. It is indeed refreshing to see someone like you offering a great product at very affordable prices.
Having listened to the Keelins at our NY Audio Rave against speakers costing two and a half times (2k-and even 3k range) as much, I believed the Keelins were an incredible value for the money, being slightly bested by much more expensive speakers. A lot of us at the rave could not believe that this speaker was being sold for $750! If you had doubled the price-tag, I still believe that a consumer would be getting his money's worth.
As far as you having a slow start with the floor-standing Eilish, perhaps if more people were aware of Shamrock Audio, their interest would be peaked. I myself had never heard of Shamrock Audio till Chris was kind enough to bring them to our meeting. Needless to say, I, as well as other members, were quite impressed with the fantastic build quality and the overall sound. With some patience, perseverance, and steadfast integrity in this competitive industry, I am sure that you will have continued success in your business.
Hopefully in the near future, I will have the opportunity to give the Keelins a second listen, that is if Chris will invite me over(hint, hint )

Rocket · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Jul 2004, 01:48 am »

Hi,

To be honest i can't believe that you guys in the states don't snap up these great looking speakers. To have an excellent designed speaker like the keelin or eilish would be great.

At the price of the speakers they are a bargain imo. Come and live in Oz and find out how expensive hifi is here. Typically we pay 2 - 3 times the cost of a product compared to the states whilst our wages are similiar.

If shipping wasn't such a limiting factor (i should know importing dacs etc cost a fortune) i'd buy a pair just to have a listen to.

best wishes and good luck mike.

regards

rocket

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Jul 2004, 09:54 am »

Mike,

Rocket · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Jul 2004, 11:28 am »

Hi Chris,

I think the problem is that many audiophiles or new ones prefer name brand components. It may have something to do with status.

To me at the end of the day i have to take consideration of how much a product will cost me and how it sounds. I moved away from mass produced products many years ago as i couldn't afford them. In the last couple of years i've gone for direct internet sales.

Last night i went to my local hifi dealer (who sells bel canto) and met a person who had an aksa 100 amplifier. Interestingly he said he gave up on the amp as it never Sounded right to him. He also had an n.e.w. dc-66 battery amp which i have had (this is the amp that is sitting at the dealers shop as we speak). I personally thought that the n.e.w. wasn't as good as the aksa amp. The aksa had much better dynamics and didn't sound soft like the n.e.w. The customer had a stock aksa whilst i had the nirvana version.

He then proceeded to trash my perpetual technologies products. Oh well at least we agreed that vinyl sounds great.

regards

rocket

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Jul 2004, 11:50 am »

Quote from: Rocket

Hi Chris,

I think the problem is that many audiophiles or new ones prefer name brand components. It may have something to do with status.

Rod....you hit it right on the head !!! Excellent point !!! Its too bad people can't try new things , they would be surprized by whats out there . I know I was by my Keelin purchase !!!!

Rocket · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Jul 2004, 12:50 pm »

Hi Chris,

It would cost me $750 at least just to build the cabinets for a speaker
like shamrock produce.

In fact my war audio speakers (cabinets) cost me $500au for piano black finish and about $350au for the cabinet. A well designed speaker with good quality xover will sound So much better than mass produced speakers any day.

Unfortunately most people will go for mass produced components all the time. I remember going to war audio several years ago and everybody indicated the N.E.W. were the best amps in the world. Now bel canto are! I do like their amps and if i had a spare $5000au i could buy an amp but i don't.

Anyway i'm removing my amp boards tomorrow (aksa) and sending them to hugh for the nirvana plus upgrade.

best wishes

rocket

Shamrock Audio · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Jul 2004, 10:11 pm »

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your kind and supportive comments. I really do appreciate them.

It's true that consumers tend to purchase products from companies they feel they know. That's why advertising is so agressive - no matter what the industry. We could put our products right next to a brand name - the consumer may like our product better - but will bet their money on the brand name better than 95% of the time. It's just a reality. It's also expensive.

All of us are buried under tons of advertising every day. From the spam in your email, to the credit card offers in your mailbox. From the billboards along the road, to the garage sale signs on the corner. From the commercials you now pay to receive on tv, to the banner ads you pay your ISP for the privelidge of reading. Even the logo in the center of the steering wheel of your minivan is there to keep that company's name in the forefront of your mind. Advertising is the lifeblood of business worldwide.

So, what really matters in business - the advertising or the product? Well, does anyone remember the pet rock? Was it the advertising or the product that made it successful?

Perhaps we should ask how we measure success? Is success measured strictly by financial criteria? Companies are viewed as successful if they make lots of money, not if they make a little less money but provide more jobs. If you invest your money in a stock, you do so for the purpose of making a profit, right?

Any company that uses outside money becomes indebted to those who invest in their company. The fundamental purpose of the company is now to provide a return on that investment. Whatever product or service that company provides is little more than a means to an end - the end being the goal of forever increasing the return on investment for those who have invested in the company. If you want to know why the prices go up while the quality goes down, or why your job is downsized, or why whole companies are moved overseas, this is the reason. It's not so much that the companies aren't profitable, it's the incredible pressure on them to be even more profitable.

Now, I make loudspeakers. I think I make good loudspeakers. I need to tell the world that I make good loudspeakers. Therefore, I need to advertise. That means I need money, and lots of it. Where do I get the money? From other people. What's in it for them? The potential for profit. Can I convince them to invest their money with me because I'm going to make my products better than they absolutely have to be for the money I charge? Not likely! From the very outset I will be under pressure simply make my products "good enough" to sell at a given price-point. My purpose for being in business is no longer about making what I consider to be an honest product that I can sell honestly, my whole purpose is to maximize profits for the investors.

Don't get me wrong, they deserve to make money on their investment. After all, they're providing me with the means to be in business at all. What's at issue here is the required change in focus that goes with it.

So, how do I measure success for my company? I measure success by each and every customer that chooses to do business with us. We're not a perfect company making perfect products. However, we strive to be an honest company making honest products.

When you make the decision to make a purchase from us, we understand the leap-of-faith that such a purchase requires. After all, we're not right next door to any of you and we don't distribute our products through your local dealer. Therefore, we're asking you to pony-up your hard-earned money with a company you've barely heard of, on a product you've likely never seen or heard, and then we ask you to do this at arms-length! We know we're asking a lot from you!

Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to make your dealings with us as pleasant and painless as possible. Foremost is that you know that whatever happens you can believe what we tell you, and that we'll take care of you - even if that means returning every penny you spent with us including any shipping charges you may have incurred.

In the end, we have to deliver the goods. We must deliver a product that will stand on its own merits against nearly anything you wish to compare it to. We have no control over the equipment you'll be using it with, what you may be comparing it to, or the envorinment where it will be placed. Yet, we have to so impress you with what we've done that you will decide to keep them over anything else you may be considering. If we drop the ball anywhere in that process and lose the sale, we purposely stack the deck so that we are the ones who stand to lose. We lose the sale, we lose the shipping charges both ways, we lose a percentage for credit card processing, we lose a higher percentage to credit your account if we refund your money. Further, we lose a perfectly good set of speakers because they are now used merchandise and can't be sold as new.

This is our 11th year of continuous operation. In all that time we have had 1 set of loudspeakers returned to us by a client, and then it was simply a matter of personal preference. I would be lying if I said we don't make mistakes. Over the years we have made some whoppingly big mistakes. It's how we handle those things that go sideways that makes all the difference. Because I own the company and am not obligated to outside investors, I can make decisions based on what's in your best interest, rather than on what's in their best interest.

That ability doesn't come cheap. One of the costs is the funds to market and promote the company and our products. We're now back where we started.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Jul 2004, 04:18 am »

Thanks for your comments Mike !! Continued success for many more years !!