Talk me out of an AVR? ** Room correction, I/O, Power(?), BUDGET!**

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neekomax

Hi again. It's been approximately some years.  :o

Currently running a 2.3 system with KEF Q100 and three distributed subs, a DSPeaker Dual Core as DAC/Pre (and room correction), with TAD Hibachi monos as power amps in a medium sized space. 

I'm wondering if something with Audessy, HDMI I/O, sub outs with bass management, and lots of flexibility wouldn't be easier and better in all than what I have going. I could sell the DSPeaker unit to fund something like a Marantz NR-1508 http://echohifi.com/details/11462/Marantz_NR-1508 ... My question is: What would I be giving up? So many features and options with the AVR route! I know it's the less 'cool' route, but, f*#k it, I'm all about value at this point; I'm kinda broke, but I still want to improve my audio life if I can, you know?

Isn't something with Audessy, crazy I/O, decent D/A conversion, and multichannel potential a better way to go in the end for the $$? As cool as the DSpeaker is, it doesn't *see* my subs and provide proper crossover, timing, etc, the way something like a good AVR can. In-room bass excellence is very important to me. I want want impact AND precision, without sacrificing the quality and power in the upper registers.

Am I missing something? Love to know your thoughts. Cheers.

zoom25

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Treat your room. Best investment.

neekomax

Treat your room. Best investment.

Fair enough. Let's say I've done so, or am willing to. What about the benefits of better I/O, streaming capabilities, multichannel options, and the like? As much as I agree with your suggestion, it only addresses one aspect of my situation, and it assumes that room treatments can actually supplant good room correction DSP. I think it's probably a combination that's going to be best, but if you think otherwise, I'm interested to hear about it.

mresseguie

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Neekomax,

I may have a solution for you. I own a Nuforce AVP-18 that I bought from John Casler back in January (I think) 2014. I actually used it for about six months before boxing it up and putting it in a closet. It has sat there ever since. There's nothing wrong with it. It's not being used because I realized I'm not interested in HT; I'm only interested in 2-channel audio. Look up its specs and reviews to decide if it fits your needs.

I will happily sell it to you for a low price because I'm not going to use it again and my son has no need for this either. The sole consideration is that you must wait until February for me to ship it because it is in Oregon and I am in Taiwan. Yeah, it's kinda far to walk or drive.  :nono:

Michael

Geez. I've got a Selah Audio Ancora center speaker that's boxed up as well. It's the first one Rick made.

bacobits1

Absolutely agree, treat your room.
Best change I have done in7 years.

zoom25

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Ideally, you should be using room design build (which isn't possible unless you're building from the ground up) and room treatment (which is possible) to address acoustical problems.

Even the mastering guys with Trinnov, which is one of the best room correction software and hardware out there, prefer to use room treatment as much as possible. They will only use the Trinnov to address subtle problems in the bass region. If you use room correction to fix the response across the frequency response, you might not like the results.

Finished products can get expensive and still not fully solve things. If you can DIY and/or get some help, that'd be the most economical.

Use something like 3-4 layers of Roxul Safe N Sound (9"-12"). That will actually get deep into the bass and remain flat without all kinds of peaks and nulls.

The worst thing with room treatment you can do is stick those 2-3" panels across the rooms. They barely reach the low mids and don't have any absorption in the bass region. What that creates is a lifeless sound. You want your room sounding smooth top to bottom.

All my speakers, especially the Amphions, just go to another level with proper treatment. Your brain than has to do less processing as well. It's more enjoyable.

zoom25

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As for Marantz, I have their PM6004 and CD5004 and have heard the other multichannel models at home. I know they go well with your KEFs as I've heard that combo before. However, Marantz is warm, rolled off in the top end and not that detailed. With some gear, it can actually work out well, but still wouldn't recommend it whole heartedly. Please audition if possible.

Just to be explicit, decent room treatment will far exceed room correction via software. We sometimes consider only FR but forget that sound is actually pressure changes. Room treatment will help control pressure changes evenly throughout.

neekomax

Ideally, you should be using room design build (which isn't possible unless you're building from the ground up) and room treatment (which is possible) to address acoustical problems.

Even the mastering guys with Trinnov, which is one of the best room correction software and hardware out there, prefer to use room treatment as much as possible. They will only use the Trinnov to address subtle problems in the bass region. If you use room correction to fix the response across the frequency response, you might not like the results.

Finished products can get expensive and still not fully solve things. If you can DIY and/or get some help, that'd be the most economical.

Use something like 3-4 layers of Roxul Safe N Sound (9"-12"). That will actually get deep into the bass and remain flat without all kinds of peaks and nulls.

The worst thing with room treatment you can do is stick those 2-3" panels across the rooms. They barely reach the low mids and don't have any absorption in the bass region. What that creates is a lifeless sound. You want your room sounding smooth top to bottom.

All my speakers, especially the Amphions, just go to another level with proper treatment. Your brain than has to do less processing as well. It's more enjoyable.

Yeah, man, I hear you. I might try and knock together a couple of bass traps using the Roxul stuff as you suggest. I still want to pursue the AVR thing as well if I can get a good deal on something that solves a few of the other issues mentioned.

I'll start looking for a good DIY bass trap tutorial/guide that I might base a build off of.

artur9

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I have some treatments in my room.  My room correction software ends up doing almost nothing.

I have RoomPerfect and it says it's doing 6% correction. 

I measured my room with REW and aligned my subs etc.  Then I told REW to give me the PEQ settings to use.  It gave me 3 PEQ filters.  So, for me, room treatments means I don't need all that fancy AVR stuff.

If I were you I'd take the money and buy subs, lots of subs ;-)

P.S.  My treatments are all DIY Roxul SafeNSound based.  If you like, you could even make them movie poster or other attractive art.

neekomax

I have some treatments in my room.  My room correction software ends up doing almost nothing.

I have RoomPerfect and it says it's doing 6% correction. 

I measured my room with REW and aligned my subs etc.  Then I told REW to give me the PEQ settings to use.  It gave me 3 PEQ filters.  So, for me, room treatments means I don't need all that fancy AVR stuff.

If I were you I'd take the money and buy subs, lots of subs ;-)

P.S.  My treatments are all DIY Roxul SafeNSound based.  If you like, you could even make them movie poster or other attractive art.

Interesting, thank you. How did you decide where to place your treatments?

Mr Peabody

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I use a Marantz 1605 in a 3.0 set up driving Revel in-wall.  I had an Onkyo in the same set up prior to the Marantz, in my opinion the Marantz sounded much better.  The Onkyo sounded like a receiver where the Marantz has a more natural sound quality, more tonally rich.  In my set up I don't notice it being rolled off on the top.

In my main room, not the one above, I have acoustic panels made from Corning 703, it definitely makes a difference, giving the sound stage better focus and overall frequency response. 

I forget the price, Anthem does now have a stereo preamp, I believe sub-out, with their ARC room correction built in.  The ARC is said to be one of the best room EQ softwares, it does require use of a laptop and downloading the free software to run it though.

If only using this for music, and "poor", I'd look used and try to get a receiver with more true power.  Some of those AVR's give power ratings with one channel driven and other not so ethical ratings.  The Marantz at 50 watts is fairly true, and you are using a sub, I just like having reserve for headroom.  My Marantz has bottomed on Blu-ray LFE when the Dynamic Range thing was on.  Of course, adding a sub would cure this as well.  Buying used and not needing leading edge surround decoding etc. you could maybe get one of the more top end receivers a few years old.

JLM

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Your current 2.3 system concept should be nearly ideal for audio use.  What do you mean by "the DSPeaker doesn't 'see' the subs"?  Didn't you set up using the microphone?  What subs are you running?  What exactly are you 'needing' to improve?

Yes, another vote for room first.  No amount of bandaids (treatment, signal processing, or speakers) can fix a truly bad room.  Please describe your room. 

I use a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core as a DAC, preamp, and bass DSP and love it in my $7000 USD 2.1 system (have owned 'better' gear in the past).  Picked up Schiit Freya (balanced tube preamp) and Gungnir MB (balanced R2R DAC) last spring and ended up sending them back.  They made 10% of my Redbook library sound better, but 30% worse no matter how I configured the three pieces.  And a couple of audio buds have tried going 'down' to an AVR from audiophile separates and are now bailing out due to reduced sound quality.  It's as hard to get good bass response as it is trying scaling back gear and being satisfied.

When we built 13 years ago I got a Cardas Golden Cuboid shaped well insulated basement study (audio front, office rear).  Added six GIK 244 panels (at first side/front wall reflection points and front corners after much experimenting) to little effect (but work wonders elsewhere).  DSP is intended to tweak, to be a finishing touch to flatten frequency response for a single location, nothing more.  That is how I use it in my near-field listening with a single sub (am very satisfied with the results).  Note I have two pair of speakers that I occasionally alternate and use the 4 DSP settings on the DSPeaker for each pair of speakers, with and without the sub.  Was considering a 3 or 4 sub swarm like you apparently have, but with DSP am quite satisfied with just one.  Have always believed that bass is foundational and not optional in true hi-end sound reproduction.

artur9

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Interesting, thank you. How did you decide where to place your treatments?
REW helped me to decide where to put the absorbers.

My treatments are mostly behind me, to stop reflections from the wall, according to Toole, I think.  Then I have replaced some ceiling tiles with better sound absorbing ones.  On the left of my room there's no wall so no reflections from that side.

JLM

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Yes Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" is an audiophile must read. 

maty

Hi,

I really LOVE my cheap tweaked KEF Q100. It is the first thing I would do with yours, implement my modifications.

Try to cut > 130 Hz.

Do not buy Marantz NR-1508.

Without photos, diagrams of your room and without measurements, I can say little more.

neekomax

I use a Marantz 1605 in a 3.0 set up driving Revel in-wall.  I had an Onkyo in the same set up prior to the Marantz, in my opinion the Marantz sounded much better.  The Onkyo sounded like a receiver where the Marantz has a more natural sound quality, more tonally rich.  In my set up I don't notice it being rolled off on the top.

In my main room, not the one above, I have acoustic panels made from Corning 703, it definitely makes a difference, giving the sound stage better focus and overall frequency response. 

I forget the price, Anthem does now have a stereo preamp, I believe sub-out, with their ARC room correction built in.  The ARC is said to be one of the best room EQ softwares, it does require use of a laptop and downloading the free software to run it though.

If only using this for music, and "poor", I'd look used and try to get a receiver with more true power.  Some of those AVR's give power ratings with one channel driven and other not so ethical ratings.  The Marantz at 50 watts is fairly true, and you are using a sub, I just like having reserve for headroom.  My Marantz has bottomed on Blu-ray LFE when the Dynamic Range thing was on.  Of course, adding a sub would cure this as well.  Buying used and not needing leading edge surround decoding etc. you could maybe get one of the more top end receivers a few years old.

Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, I've heard good things about Anthem and ARC. I don't own a Windows laptop however, so that would add to the cost of that idea. Thought of it though.

I have a few amps laying around, so that's why I could do something like a pre/pro as mressegui suggests; the KEFs like power for sure. And it seems good power is always something one can add as needed with new class D stuff etc.

neekomax

Your current 2.3 system concept should be nearly ideal for audio use.  What do you mean by "the DSPeaker doesn't 'see' the subs"?  Didn't you set up using the microphone?  What subs are you running?  What exactly are you 'needing' to improve?

I have run the DSPeaker calibration with the current setup. I've had it for a long time, and I think I'm pretty handy with it as this point. I try different things now and then, like running it to 500 Hz or just 100 Hz, playing with sub gains and sub cutoffs, etc. What I mean by saying it doesn't 'see' the subs is that, since I'm using it as my DAC and Preamp, I can only use the 2.0 config. Therefore it sees my entire setup as one pair of speakers, and can't do timing delay correction for any of the subs, which I would think is important, and it can't provide a mains to sub crossover the way something with bass management can. So the KEFs run full range, which isn't optimal at reference levels. I would run them crossed at 120Hz as Maty suggests, but no can do at the moment.

Subs are Martin Logan Grotto servo sub (10", sealed), playing down from 55 Hz, and two Pinnacle Subsonic Jrs (dual opposed 6.5", sealed) playing from 70 Hz down). 

rollo

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Hi again. It's been approximately some years.  :o

Currently running a 2.3 system with KEF Q100 and three distributed subs, a DSPeaker Dual Core as DAC/Pre (and room correction), with TAD Hibachi monos as power amps in a medium sized space. 

I'm wondering if something with Audessy, HDMI I/O, sub outs with bass management, and lots of flexibility wouldn't be easier and better in all than what I have going. I could sell the DSPeaker unit to fund something like a Marantz NR-1508 http://echohifi.com/details/11462/Marantz_NR-1508 ... My question is: What would I be giving up? So many features and options with the AVR route! I know it's the less 'cool' route, but, f*#k it, I'm all about value at this point; I'm kinda broke, but I still want to improve my audio life if I can, you know?

Isn't something with Audessy, crazy I/O, decent D/A conversion, and multichannel potential a better way to go in the end for the $$? As cool as the DSpeaker is, it doesn't *see* my subs and provide proper crossover, timing, etc, the way something like a good AVR can. In-room bass excellence is very important to me. I want want impact AND precision, without sacrificing the quality and power in the upper registers.

Am I missing something? Love to know your thoughts. Cheers.

   Over the years , 50 of them to be exact the most effective way of improving ones sound without spending money is ???
Well your room, set up and listening chair location. Looking at your photo  in your avatar shows me issues with basic set up.
Try moving furniture, seating, minor treatment [ homemade] cable management. everything makes a difference.
If you like you can PM me with a some more photos and I would be more than happy to help. Free of course.


charles

JLM

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Yeah, I've heard good things about Anthem and ARC. I don't own a Windows laptop however, so that would add to the cost of that idea. Thought of it though.

Yeah had also heard good things about Anthem, but one of the guys who is sorry for dropping down to an AVR bought an Anthem and is now in the hunt for audiophile grade pre/power amps.  Would you be satisfied?  Depends on your existing gear, budget, and priorities.

lokie

Quote
My treatments are all DIY Roxul SafeNSound based.  If you like, you could even make them movie poster or other attractive art.

Can you post some pictures? i would love to see how you do this.

Thanks.