Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP

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CanadianMaestro

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #20 on: 21 Jan 2018, 01:16 am »
To tell you the truth, I almost never listen to the BCD-1 anymore. My listening is nearly exclusively using the BDP.

Considered selling it? Or maybe setup a second smaller rig as headphone source?

Pundamilia

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #21 on: 21 Jan 2018, 01:20 am »
Naw. I need to keep it there for my wife to use whenever she has problems with the BDP/BDA combo.

It improves WAF of the whole setup.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #22 on: 21 Jan 2018, 01:23 am »
Naw. I need to keep it there for my wife to use whenever she has problems with the BDP/BDA combo.

It improves WAF of the whole setup.

I admire strategic thinking.  :thumb:

lakeallen

Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #23 on: 21 Jan 2018, 03:20 am »
I sold off my whole computer audio set-up and now do digital exclusivity with my BCD-3. Love it, sound is fantastic. No confusing menus, settings, adjustments, PROBLEMS- just put in a CD and listen to music. It competes for time with my turntable, 40% BCD-3. 60% vinyl.  I have SACD's too and the CD layer through the BCD-3 sounds as good as SACD, this player is that good with CD in my opinion.

redbook

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #24 on: 21 Jan 2018, 05:26 pm »
I sold off my whole computer audio set-up and now do digital exclusivity with my BCD-3. Love it, sound is fantastic. No confusing menus, settings, adjustments, PROBLEMS- just put in a CD and listen to music. It competes for time with my turntable, 40% BCD-3. 60% vinyl.  I have SACD's too and the CD layer through the BCD-3 sounds as good as SACD, this player is that good with CD in my opinion.
......that's my point about having a player of this quality....never had such great  sound  in over 50 years of being a hi fi fan..... :thumb:

Tony1

Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #25 on: 24 Jan 2018, 04:07 am »
Anyone compare the sound quality of the BCD-3 vs BDP-3/BDP-3?

Grant Hill

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #26 on: 24 Jan 2018, 09:14 am »
Hi Tony1,

I think it's not easy to have these 3 available together.... maybe only James. it would be interesting, anyway I'm not expecting big differences in sound quality as the dac is the same

TJ-Sully

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #27 on: 24 Jan 2018, 10:55 pm »
Great question Tony. I am curious about this too. But i suppose it could be broken into 2 parts.
CD-laser reader vs. BDP player. If the DAC's are the same (and i'm not sure they are), maybe your question is more pointed to playback... :scratch:

BrisbaneTom

Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #28 on: 25 Jan 2018, 03:18 am »
I'd say 40% BDP1/BDA1, 60% BCD1.

I still buy a lot of CD’s, and generally use the BCD before I get the chance/time to rip them to FLAC. 

R. Daneel

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #29 on: 25 Jan 2018, 11:20 am »
@ TJ-Sully & CanadianMaestro

The question of CD transports is a complicated one.

It is not a mtter of simple extraction of 0s and 1s from the disc. Japanese manufacturers have discovered problems inherent to digital equipment long before CD was even invented. Later they also discovered new techniques to combat these problems.

A well-designed CD transport should have a stable CD drive void of vibration, mechanical components that are inert enough to be immune to vibration, laser assemblies with precise servo mechanisms, stable power supply to these servos (even grounded in some cases) etc. Some Japanese manufacturers were not happy with what was available so they made their own drives. Companies like Sony, Kenwood and Pioneer.

All of these things are expensive to make, a lot more expensive than installing a reference-level master clock which is the best you can get with a modern-day CD transport.

A few years ago, I did extensive tests on different CD transports. The results were interesting to say the least. The best-sounding and best-measuring CD transport was in fact DVD player from Pioneer. Nothing special, a cheap player bought only to do this test and compare it against a dedicated CD transport that costs literally eighty (yes, 80) times more.

No service manual for the Pioneer made it impossible to discover why this is but then I saw something about "Perfect Playability" feature. According to Pioneer, all of their machines, at least of this generation, can play all discs, no matter how badly damaged. Needless to say, all of my discs are in perfect condition, but this means there is some kind of processing inside that deconstructs, interpolates and then reconstructs the original dana. Obviously, this has to include audio syncing as well. Now of course, this system was designed for video primarily  but obviously, it affects audio as well because the square-wave on the oscilloscope was essentially textbook-like. Only the slightest artifacts are visible at maximum magnification.

But no matter how good the transport is, errors can still creep in once the signal leaves the S/PDIF generator within the CD transport. If the input receiver chip inside the DAC has nothing to combat this, this will only get worse when it reaches the actual D-A conversion. In fact, I'd say that the quality of the input receiver chip is probably more critical than the entire CD transport.

The Pioneer DVD is as good of a CD transport as I have heard and I already have a Bryston BDP-2 with the BUC-bord installed.

In all fairness and interest of full disclosure, our tests were inspired by Lampizator website, their Pioneer DVD player modification page in particular.

As for modern-day CD transports, they are pretty much gone. Unless you want to spend a fortune which is something I wouldn't do myself, even if I had the Money. It appears to me the best one comes from Onkyo, namely the C-7000R. It belongs to their top-level range and has some interesting features. It is a CD player in fact but all analogue circuitry can be switched off leaving only the digital outputs active. It has a balanced AES/EBU output and thermally-stable clock. More importantly, the clock feeds the digital outputs directly with a shielded wire thus bypassing the circuit board completely.

For what it's Worth.

Cheers!
Antun

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #30 on: 25 Jan 2018, 01:04 pm »
Hey Antun, nice to hear from you, long time. Thanks for the description/explanation. In the end, if I hear no diff, I don't go for a transport vs straight-to-preamp. Simple as that. No tech manuals, jitter measurements, etc. Just my reliable ears.
Who says great-sounding gear had to cost thousands? DVD player... :duh:

cheers

mr_bill

Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #31 on: 25 Jan 2018, 04:36 pm »
@ TJ-Sully & CanadianMaestro

The question of CD transports is a complicated one.

It is not a mtter of simple extraction of 0s and 1s from the disc. Japanese manufacturers have discovered problems inherent to digital equipment long before CD was even invented. Later they also discovered new techniques to combat these problems.

A well-designed CD transport should have a stable CD drive void of vibration, mechanical components that are inert enough to be immune to vibration, laser assemblies with precise servo mechanisms, stable power supply to these servos (even grounded in some cases) etc. Some Japanese manufacturers were not happy with what was available so they made their own drives. Companies like Sony, Kenwood and Pioneer.

All of these things are expensive to make, a lot more expensive than installing a reference-level master clock which is the best you can get with a modern-day CD transport.

A few years ago, I did extensive tests on different CD transports. The results were interesting to say the least. The best-sounding and best-measuring CD transport was in fact DVD player from Pioneer. Nothing special, a cheap player bought only to do this test and compare it against a dedicated CD transport that costs literally eighty (yes, 80) times more.

No service manual for the Pioneer made it impossible to discover why this is but then I saw something about "Perfect Playability" feature. According to Pioneer, all of their machines, at least of this generation, can play all discs, no matter how badly damaged. Needless to say, all of my discs are in perfect condition, but this means there is some kind of processing inside that deconstructs, interpolates and then reconstructs the original dana. Obviously, this has to include audio syncing as well. Now of course, this system was designed for video primarily  but obviously, it affects audio as well because the square-wave on the oscilloscope was essentially textbook-like. Only the slightest artifacts are visible at maximum magnification.

But no matter how good the transport is, errors can still creep in once the signal leaves the S/PDIF generator within the CD transport. If the input receiver chip inside the DAC has nothing to combat this, this will only get worse when it reaches the actual D-A conversion. In fact, I'd say that the quality of the input receiver chip is probably more critical than the entire CD transport.

The Pioneer DVD is as good of a CD transport as I have heard and I already have a Bryston BDP-2 with the BUC-bord installed.

In all fairness and interest of full disclosure, our tests were inspired by Lampizator website, their Pioneer DVD player modification page in particular.

As for modern-day CD transports, they are pretty much gone. Unless you want to spend a fortune which is something I wouldn't do myself, even if I had the Money. It appears to me the best one comes from Onkyo, namely the C-7000R. It belongs to their top-level range and has some interesting features. It is a CD player in fact but all analogue circuitry can be switched off leaving only the digital outputs active. It has a balanced AES/EBU output and thermally-stable clock. More importantly, the clock feeds the digital outputs directly with a shielded wire thus bypassing the circuit board completely.

For what it's Worth.

Cheers!
Antun

Very interesting Antun and thanks for sharing!
What model # was the Pioneer DVD player?
Bill

R. Daneel

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #32 on: 26 Jan 2018, 08:09 am »
Hey Antun, nice to hear from you, long time. Thanks for the description/explanation. In the end, if I hear no diff, I don't go for a transport vs straight-to-preamp. Simple as that. No tech manuals, jitter measurements, etc. Just my reliable ears.
Who says great-sounding gear had to cost thousands? DVD player... :duh:

cheers

Thanks mate!

LOL yes, a DVD player! Isn't that just hilarious!

The first mistake people make is they go to the very limit of their budged and start their search from there. They should decide on a reasonable sum to spend and go from there if they're not happy.

Cheers!
Antun

R. Daneel

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #33 on: 26 Jan 2018, 08:41 am »
Very interesting Antun and thanks for sharing!
What model # was the Pioneer DVD player?
Bill

Hi Bill!

I will check and let you know. It's the basic model I believe. The only reason I got a Pioneer is because it had a coaxial digital output. Usually, players of this price have an optical output.

But remember that more expensive models aren't necessarily better because a digital output and CD transport functionality isn't what DBD players are about. So, the most basic model might be as good as the top model if you intend to use it as a CD transport only. In fact, things might get worse with higher-end models because they usually include more signal processing and circuit boards that are more complex.

Cheers!
Antun

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #34 on: 26 Jan 2018, 11:37 am »

The first mistake people make is they go to the very limit of their budged and start their search from there. They should decide on a reasonable sum to spend and go from there if they're not happy.

Cheers!
Antun

Aim high, go low (if possible).... :lol:

R. Daneel

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #35 on: 26 Jan 2018, 12:19 pm »
Aim high, go low (if possible).... :lol:

LOL! Yeah, that's the ticket!!

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #36 on: 26 Jan 2018, 12:29 pm »
LOL! Yeah, that's the ticket!!

Sometimes, realizing is too late...   :duh:

veloceleste

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #37 on: 26 Jan 2018, 09:29 pm »
.
« Last Edit: 22 Aug 2023, 08:19 pm by veloceleste »

TJ-Sully

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #38 on: 27 Jan 2018, 12:51 am »
good one fellas! I have an old Carver CD player i bought with my student loan when i was in my third year of university.
It cost about $1000 and that was a ton of money for me back in the early 90's. The fine gentleman, Rick,  from Magic Forest Audio in Fredericton, let me borrow his new nakamichi CD player  - and truck it up to his competitor - to run and A/B test against the Carver. The Carver won.  I still have it, and lug it out from time to time - and run it's SPDIF coax digital out to my BDA2.....and it sounds friggin' awesome. but i agree w/ Mr Bill, it's more than simply transporting 0's and 1's...

TJ

R. Daneel

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Re: Time Spent: BCD vs. BDP
« Reply #39 on: 20 Feb 2018, 07:51 am »
Very interesting Antun and thanks for sharing!
What model # was the Pioneer DVD player?
Bill

Hi Bill!

I checked the model number on the Pionner DVD player. It is DV-2022. Like I said, a very cheap player.

Cheers!
Antun