AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The HiRez Music Circle => Topic started by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 12:10 am

Title: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 12:10 am
As many of you know, there are several ways to listen to good SACD and Bluray hirez (TrueHD, DTS HD MA, 24/192 linear PCM), but they either require you to put up with the average-to-good analog outputs of a universal player like the Oppo BDP-83, trust your even-riskier jack-of-all-trades AVR/AVP to do the decoding and analog playback (assuming you have the decoders) or, most recently for us audiophiles, upgrade the analog sections to much higher levels (Nuforce NE version or full analog stage mod/replacement from Modwright).   In many cases (Modwright for example) the multichannel aspects can be improved, too,  These upgrades are mainly done for pristine 2 channel performance.....the subject of this new product review.

Well, what if you are like so many of us that have already dipped our toes in digital audio and have made a commitment to a stand-alone DAC, which, ipsofacto, comes with a most musical analog stage, etc?  Why are we now using another DAC (the one in the Oppo, etc) for music listening.  Why not treat the Oppo as a wonderful $500 transport (and movie machine) and send the Hirez music to our trusty DAC of choice. 

Up until now we couldn't make that choice.  But there are options.  The first one (of two main options in this category) is a simple $219 stand-alone box that purports to 'de-embed" the stereo hirez music that is carried on HDMI and send it across an optical cable to our DAC of choice!!!  All the while providing a simple pass-through for the HDMI to continue to our AVP's and/or display devices.  Yes, I mean glorious 24/192 2 channel BlURay, or decoded SACD in 24/88.2 HiRez PCM, as well as up-to-24/192 DVD-Audio.  Well....here are my first impressions:

(Note: For those who don't wanna read this....The $219 Atlona HD570 HDMI "de-embedder" has proven to be quite the little magic box that is more than worth its price...way more. :)  )

It's called an Atlona HD570 HDMI de-0embedder.  (Note: other $100-200 products are out there from different companies, most Chinese; my investigation shows they don't fully work, at least not to 24/192 or anywhere close.  They have almost identical casing, but to no avail.   If you want my reviewed product, it's the Atlona brand).  It plugs into the wall via a typical small cell-phone-recharger-sized wallwart and has an HDMI input and an HDMI and optical digital output (and also includes an 8 channel analog output set, albeit on four miniplugs, but moot for this discussion).  I connected my Oppo BDP-83 SE's HDMI into it and then passed the HDMI through on to my home theater processor and projector. The processor needs to simply be on to handshake with the HDMI signal.  My $40 glass optical cable was connected from the Atlona to my Weiss DAC2 24/192-capable DAC.

My evaluation was among three sources of SACD/PCM and two sources of Blu-Ray. My SACD example was the Jimmy Cobb Quartet's Jazz In The Key Of Blue (Chesky). Sources were:
* Pure DSD via Oppo analog outs (Stealth Nanofiber RCA to Wyred4Sound STP SE preamp).
* 24/88.2 PCM via HDMI/Atlona, optical glass toslink to Weiss DAC2 toslink input (ASI liveline XLR's to Wyred pre)
* 24/88.2 purchased HDTracks file (song 6) played via Pure Music 1.45, Macbook server, firewire to Weiss DAC2 (Goldx 24k power-less fw cable) to pre

Amplification was done via the powerful and wonderfully musical Modwright KWA-150 monoblocks (in black anodized cases, gorgeous).  HDMI cabling was Nordost to Atlona, Bluejeans out to AVR and pj.

My evaluation of BluRay was done with 2L's Trondheim Solsteine PCM 24/192 and AIX sampler disc PCM 24/96.
* Atlona digital optical
* Oppo analog

The SACD test was interesting in that the Oppo SE analog had a slight theoretical advantage in that it was sending Direct DSD-decoded analog vs "downrez'd" 24/88.2 on the two Weiss examples. For the BluRay test the playing field was level as to resolution of the software.

On SACD the Atlona box optical out provided the most musical of the three examples, with the HDTracks file a close second. That surprised both me and my buddy listening. We assumed the tweaked music server and pure firewire approach would win out but the Atlona/optical path was as smooth and organic sounding, yet slightly more dynamic and without any hint of top end harshness or rolloff that we were worried about (jitter from optical input and Atlona decoding). Bass energy and control were identical. The Oppo's analog output was hotter, with a slight harshness on top and an overall higher noise floor. I don't know how much of this is attributed to the Stealth cables vs Livelines, but I've not noticed the Stealths ever being harsh or tipped on top. I think the differences in sample rates/resolution were far outweighed by the Weiss's cleaner, broader bandwidth and better analog stage....at considerable more $$. The Oppo analog was no slouch, but less preferred. The HDtracks/Mac server coming in second was a surprise, but it would never be noticed without realtime a/b.

On BluRay the fight was over before the opening bell stopped ringing. The Oppo had no advantages going in and it was evident from the first notes of Mark Waldrep's wonderful acoustic recordings on AIX (24/96). The differences were large and could be discerned by all but the most musically deaf listeners. Dynamics, noise floor, tonality, air, leading edges, etc. No brainers. Then as we moved into 24/192 mode (classical selections from 2L's Trondheim Solsteine disc) the gap grew larger still. The Weiss does a very nice job with 24/192, and the Oppo Sabre DACs-to-analog couldn't keep up (even in SE mode). It was most evident in string tonality. The Oppo was midfi in comparison, although prior to this test I wouldn't have guessed.

So, I can unequivocally say that the $219 Atlona is a great little box (wish it was coax instead of optical) that can do what it says, grab HDMI audio up to 24/192 and present it, with little jitter in evidence, to a DAC of your choice. As a choice for SACD-based (albeit PCM) music, it is a clear option.

I will update this review as I listen more and find out more about its pluses and minuses.  I will also post a review of another option (Shawn Fogg's 4-SPDIF board mod....same idea, just digital multichannel) in the next 30 days or so.  That option will post in a separate thread.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: eclein on 9 Jun 2010, 12:21 am
ted_b-Thanks for this info...I was wondering today if there was a device like this-how did you happen upon this? Do you have a link to a website you can post? :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 12:26 am
http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: werd on 9 Jun 2010, 12:29 am
Very interesting... thanks Ted
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 02:37 am
My buddy Rob points out that the newer Oppo BDP-80 is only $289 and does everything needed to make this Atlona box come alive as well as the BDP-83.  iI's missing DSD analog, and some IR, stereo analog and video scaler options, but is a great universal digital audio transport to marry with this Atlona. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dj_seraphim on 9 Jun 2010, 10:57 am
this looks like exactly the same box but at half the price  :)

http://www.ambery.com/2hddodtsdihd.html
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dj_seraphim on 9 Jun 2010, 11:00 am
Just noticed that you pass comment on cheaper boxes Ted, how can you be sure they are not identical?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: TomS on 9 Jun 2010, 11:15 am
Just noticed that you pass comment on cheaper boxes Ted, how can you be sure they are not identical?

From Ted's review: "(Note: other $100-200 products are out there from different companies, most Chinese; my investigation shows they don't fully work, at least not to 24/192 or anywhere close.  They have almost identical casing, but to no avail.   If you want my reviewed product, it's the Atlona band)."

I really appreciate the review Ted did on the Atlona itself, but don't really expect him to personally try all the other variants since he found one that works well.  Please let us know if you decide to test the lower priced one and it functions in an equivalent manner.  That would be icing on the cake :thumb:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 01:32 pm
Just noticed that you pass comment on cheaper boxes Ted, how can you be sure they are not identical?

The Ambery boxes don't work for my purposes, that's why I stated what I stated.  They use a different chip that doesn't pass 24/192 at all, and has trouble with anything over 24/48.  Many thanks to Chuck (emodad) and a few others who have been looking into these other boxes for some time on other forums.  We got our collective heads together and formed a consensus.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: eclein on 9 Jun 2010, 02:29 pm
ted_b-Thank you!! Bookmarked for future purchase. :thumb:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Audioclyde on 9 Jun 2010, 03:32 pm
I've been slow to get on the bluray wagon, but this could prompt me, as I have a number of SACD's that I'd love to hear again, so I'd be looking at a universal player like the Oppo's.

I don't have any HT processor in the system anymore; is that a necessity to get this gizmo to work?  Or could I hook its HDMI output directly to an HDMI input on my TV?

Thanks!

Randy
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 03:38 pm
I've been slow to get on the bluray wagon, but this could prompt me, as I have a number of SACD's that I'd love to hear again, so I'd be looking at a universal player like the Oppo's.

I don't have any HT processor in the system anymore; is that a necessity to get this gizmo to work?  Or could I hook its HDMI output directly to an HDMI input on my TV?

Thanks!

Randy

The HDMI passthru handshake (EDID) is needed..so hooking it up to your tv would work....which you'd need to do anyway, to watch anything coming from that HDMI.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Audioclyde on 9 Jun 2010, 03:43 pm
Thanks.  OK, now I can see I'll be shopping for universal BluRay players.  Although I've never used it nor currently subscribe, sure wish the Oppo's supported streaming like from NetFlix...
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 04:02 pm
UPDATE:  I have not checked one important aspect of this box's performance......that is, the ability to pass HDMI cleanly.  I want to make sure I review that aspect (is BluRay picture affected at all; or is encoded bitstreamed TRueHD or DTS HD MA passed on cleanly).  I will check later tonight or tmrw and report back.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dj_seraphim on 9 Jun 2010, 10:22 pm
The Ambery boxes don't work for my purposes, that's why I stated what I stated.  They use a different chip that doesn't pass 24/192 at all, and has trouble with anything over 24/48.  Many thanks to Chuck (emodad) and a few others who have been looking into these other boxes for some time on other forums.  We got our collective heads together and formed a consensus.  :)

Thanks for that Ted, I've checked the spec on their website and they don't specify bit rate or frequency so I think I'd probably plum for the Atlona based on your analysis.

Just to confirm, will the unit output from both outputs (hdmi and optical) at the same time?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 10:24 pm

Just to confirm, will the unit output from both outputs (hdmi and optical) at the same time?

Yes.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Russtafarian on 9 Jun 2010, 10:52 pm
Quote
The HDMI passthru handshake (EDID) is needed..so hooking it up to your tv would work....which you'd need to do anyway, to watch anything coming from that HDMI.

So if the system has no HDMI display for the disc player to "handshake" with, there is no hi-rez optical output from the Atlona?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Jun 2010, 11:52 pm
So if the system has no HDMI display for the disc player to "handshake" with, there is no hi-rez optical output from the Atlona?

If you have an HDMI player like the Oppo why wouldn't you have any HDMI processor, receiver or display?  But to answer the question: yes, if you don't have an HDMI destination this box doesn't work.  It's an HDMI-based solution (that's where the HiREZ digital resides).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Russtafarian on 10 Jun 2010, 12:20 am
That makes sense.  My system is audio only.  So the solution for making this work with my Oppo would be to get an inexpensive HDMI LCD screen for menu navigation and to handshake with the Atlona.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jun 2010, 12:47 am
I think there's even a Geffen HDMI switch that would work, the Gefen HDMI detective plus

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=8005

...but for menu navigation yours is a good idea anyway.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: JDUBS on 10 Jun 2010, 01:38 am
Nuts...I thought this was actually extracting the DSD stream and sending it to an external DAC.

Oh well.

-Jim
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jun 2010, 01:54 am
Nuts...I thought this was actually extracting the DSD stream and sending it to an external DAC.

Oh well.

-Jim

Nope, and I never said it did...plus, how would you decode DSD once it got into your DAC...do you have a Denmark Audio DAC AX24 lying around?  DSD is HDMI only (or analog).  The beauty of this is that 24/88.2 PCM into a hi-end DAC is wayyyyyyy better than DSD via an average signal path....and you get BluRay 24/192.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: JDUBS on 10 Jun 2010, 02:13 am
Nope, and I never said it did...plus, how would you decode DSD once it got into your DAC...do you have a Denmark Audio DAC AX24 lying around?  DSD is HDMI only (or analog).  The beauty of this is that 24/88.2 PCM into a hi-end DAC is wayyyyyyy better than DSD via an average signal path....and you get BluRay 24/192.

I was lured in by the title.  My bad.

Plenty of people taking the DSD stream out of (modded, obviously) players and sending it via i2s to outboard DACs, like the TPA Buffalo.

-Jim

test
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jun 2010, 02:16 am
Jim,
Plenty of DIY'ers?  This is not a DIY forum as you know.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: JDUBS on 10 Jun 2010, 02:19 am
Plenty?

Yes.

Anyway, like I said, my bad.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: JDUBS on 10 Jun 2010, 04:17 am
How does one edit their previous postings without the "Last Edit..." comment at the bottom?

You revised "Plenty?" to "Plenty of DIY'ers?" and no mention of the post being edited.

-Jim
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: skunark on 10 Jun 2010, 04:20 am
Thank's Ted for the review... You've given me something to ponder on my next HT setup....    Perhaps the AR MP1 is in my cross-hairs...
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jun 2010, 01:40 pm
How does one edit their previous postings without the "Last Edit..." comment at the bottom?

You revised "Plenty?" to "Plenty of DIY'ers?" and no mention of the post being edited.

-Jim

It was edited before yours or any other response.  You were likely typing though. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: srb on 10 Jun 2010, 02:48 pm
How does one edit their previous postings without the "Last Edit..." comment at the bottom?

The Last Edited tag only gets inserted after 60 minutes have passed.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jun 2010, 03:04 pm
I tested the HDMI pass-thru last night and couldn't detect any issues.  There is one more physical connection, of course (through the Atlona) but other than that it seems benign.

Back to Jim's (JDUBS) issue...I certainly would LOVE for this or any other plug-in style mod/fix to allow for DSD access.  To me there is nothing better than Pure DSD when listening to SACD......but the tradeoffs of always having to listen to DSD through a stock player vs sending very very good 24/88.2 (yes, wish it was 24/176.4) through a hi-end audiophile DAC are tradeoffs that are very much worth it to me...given any other midpriced alternatives (which of course does not include a significant analog stage upgrade from Dan Wright  :)  ).  And unlike most DIY solutions this also gives you full 24/192 digital access to 2 channel BluRay (Neil Young, Dave Matthews, etc) and of course DVD-Audio. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: konut on 10 Jun 2010, 06:29 pm
Excellent info, and thanks for the heads up on this piece of kit ted_b! At this point it might be useful to list those Blu-Ray/SACD players that pass SACD through the HDMI port. Does such a list exist? While googling this it appears that some universal Blu-Ray players don't pass SACD over HDMI.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 10 Jun 2010, 06:33 pm
Excellent info, and thanks for the heads up on this piece of kit ted_b! At this point it might be useful to list those Blu-Ray/SACD players that pass SACD through the HDMI port. Does such a list exist? While googling this it appears that some universal Blu-Ray players don't pass SACD over HDMI.

I'll do some looking, but keep in mind that "DSD over HDMI" is not what we're looking for...we're looking for SACD-to-PCM, then passed via HDMI (much more plentiful).  The Atlona box does not decode; so it needs PCM to capture.  (Note: Most of these players, however, are not also BlURay.)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: konut on 10 Jun 2010, 07:57 pm
Roger that. What I was finding was players that pass only analog on SACD, but nothing over HDMI.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: werd on 12 Jun 2010, 12:15 am
Hi Ted

I am wandering if this unit has any playthrough capability with usb, and also the blue ray out?. How about using your excellent skills and look at this. I am trying to but its decipher through it all.

Its new and hasnt come out yet... looks slick

http://www.denon.ca/ProductDetails/3577.asp
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 12 Jun 2010, 12:28 am
Werd,
First off, the Denon is a receiver (with BluRay player embedded) so the HDMI output goes to your tv.  There is likely no hirez audio being sent, as it is after the processor.  Also, it does not play SACD.  The USB input is not for streaming, it's for a typical USB stick/thumb drive..like most modern AVR's.  Although an interesting device, it is not really a candidate for this thread (unless you include every AVR out there). 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: werd on 12 Jun 2010, 12:42 am
yah, it only has 16 bit in and will not pass on through a coax out on the back.  Thought it might take in 24 bit through the usb and pass through out coax.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Audioclyde on 12 Jun 2010, 12:05 pm
Wife & daughters surprised me with an early FD gift last night--Oppo 83!  Playing my SACD's via it's analog outs sounds very good. 

Now I just have to buy the Atlona so I can use it with my MW Transporter!  Thanks Ted for the heads up!

Randy
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dwk on 12 Jun 2010, 03:24 pm
another  :thumb: from me. I've had it on my TODO list for a while to mod my Oppo dvd player to tap the PCM lines to be able to 'record' sacd discs for use/storage on the server. I never quite got around to that, but this makes it 'easy'.  In theory DVD-A and BluRay audio are rippable via other means, but this is perfect for transcoding sacd for use in a PC based system. Mine should be here early next week.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 12 Jun 2010, 03:29 pm
Keep in mind the transcoding would be realtime (like a vinyl rip); there is no ability to pull up the disc, metatdata, etc and rip normally.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dhwilkin on 13 Jun 2010, 10:43 pm
Just a head's up: The link to the Atlona, which Ted posted on page 1, gives a 404 page not found error now. This appears to be the updated link: http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html (http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 13 Jun 2010, 10:47 pm
Just a head's up: The link to the Atlona, which Ted posted on page 1, gives a 404 page not found error now. This appears to be the updated link: http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html (http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html)

Thanks  Changed it...they updated their website.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mikel51 on 14 Jun 2010, 01:05 am
and you can buy it through amazon for ~$25 less
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 15 Jun 2010, 07:38 pm
According to this review for SACD playback:

1st Place - 24/88.2 PCM via HDMI/Atlona
2nd Place - 24/88.2 purchased HDTracks file
3rd Place - Pure DSD via Oppo analog outs

On BluRay the fight was over before the opening bell stopped ringing.  The Oppo was midfi in comparison.

Since I don’t believe that DSD is sonically superior to 24/88.2 PCM, I will conclude that the
Oppo Sabre DAC is sonically inferior to the Weiss DAC, to the point of being midfi by comparison.

Sounds to me that we need some superior HDMI DSD DACs.  Or an alternative, something better than the Atlona, that decodes SACDs to 24/192 PCM.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 15 Jun 2010, 07:59 pm
According to this review for SACD playback:

1st Place - 24/88.2 PCM via HDMI/Atlona
2nd Place - 24/88.2 purchased HDTracks file
3rd Place - Pure DSD via Oppo analog outs

On BluRay the fight was over before the opening bell stopped ringing.  The Oppo was midfi in comparison.

Since I don’t believe that DSD is sonically superior to 24/88.2 PCM, I will conclude that the
Oppo Sabre DAC is sonically inferior to the Weiss DAC, to the point of being midfi by comparison.

Sounds to me that we need some superior HDMI DSD DACs.  Or an alternative, something better than the Atlona, that decodes SACDs to 24/192 PCM.

Agree on almost everything (especially that the Weiss's signal path is quite a bit better than a $500 player, almost regardless of Sabre DAC chip or not), but don't agree on the last comment.  The Atlona does not decode anything...the 24/88.2 decoding "choice" is a function of the mediatek chip in the Oppo.  The best DSD decode mathematically would be 24/176.4 (i.e even divisor of DSD at 2.8 or 5.6mhz).  there are a couple SACD players that dumb down DSD to that, but of course don't do BlURay or DvD-Audio.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 15 Jun 2010, 08:10 pm
"The Atlona does not decode anything...the 24/88.2 decoding "choice" is a function of the mediatek chip in the Oppo."

Thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't exactly sure what the Atlona did.  Am I correct in stating that the Oppo does the decoding but you cannot get any digital out from a SACD playing in the Oppo without the Atlona? 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 15 Jun 2010, 08:18 pm
"The Atlona does not decode anything...the 24/88.2 decoding "choice" is a function of the mediatek chip in the Oppo."

Thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't exactly sure what the Atlona did.  Am I correct in stating that the Oppo does the decoding but you cannot get any digital out from a SACD playing in the Oppo without the Atlona?

Correct, although technically HDMi is digital, and via HDMi your can do PCM or DSD.  It's ironic that there are now so many DSD decoders (via HDMI) in even mid-priced AVR's but few if any in stand alone audiophile DAC (under $12k).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Napalm on 15 Jun 2010, 08:46 pm
Correct, although technically HDMi is digital, and via HDMi your can do PCM or DSD.  It's ironic that there are now so many DSD decoders (via HDMI) in even mid-priced AVR's but few if any in stand alone audiophile DAC (under $12k).

Apparently they don't like licensing HDMI/HDCP.

Nap.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 16 Jun 2010, 03:12 am
This is just HDMI 1.1 but it has a coax digital out too - anyone try one or hear anything about it?

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=614&sf=80
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 16 Jun 2010, 04:27 am
This is just HDMI 1.1 but it has a coax digital out too - anyone try one or hear anything about it?

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/products/model.asp?pid=614&sf=80

I downloaded the user manual, but no real info.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 16 Jun 2010, 12:51 pm
One thing you did not discuss is how all of this compares to playback of the RDBK layer of the SACD through your Weiss DAC, either at 16/44.1 or upsampled to 24/176.4.  I am assuming that upsampled playback would be from a computer music server, while 16/44.1 could be from either the Oppo or computer.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 16 Jun 2010, 01:48 pm
One thing you did not discuss is how all of this compares to playback of the RDBK layer of the SACD through your Weiss DAC, either at 16/44.1 or upsampled to 24/176.4.  I am assuming that upsampled playback would be from a computer music server, while 16/44.1 could be from either the Oppo or computer.

I don't use the Oppo for redbook.  I have everything ripped to a Mac music server and external hard drive.  I never upsample, I listen natively.  The redbook layers of these same songs are not nearly as good as their SACD counterparts.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 16 Jun 2010, 06:48 pm
The recommendations from the Oppo website comparison page are:

BDP-83 Special Edition: For use with high-end audio systems via analog audio connections

BDP-83: For use with all audio systems via HDMI and digital optical/coaxial connections

Thus according to the manufacturer it would seem that the Special Edition architecture is wasted for digital out and that if your goal is digital out you are better off with the standard BDP-83.  Is this a correct interpretation and are the manufacturer's recommendations sound?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: doctorcilantro on 16 Jun 2010, 06:50 pm
So it has a pass-through for HDMi and then I could simultaneously connect the optical to my DAC> My wife likes to use the TV speakers and CDs over HDMI, simple, but oh how archaic  :icon_lol:

If you have an HDMI player like the Oppo why wouldn't you have any HDMI processor, receiver or display?  But to answer the question: yes, if you don't have an HDMI destination this box doesn't work.  It's an HDMI-based solution (that's where the HiREZ digital resides).

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: doctorcilantro on 16 Jun 2010, 06:51 pm
The standard would be better as a digital transport; the SE has the Sabre chip, thus you'd be paying for a nice onboard DAC chip that you would never use.

The recommendations from the Oppo website comparison page are:

BDP-83 Special Edition: For use with high-end audio systems via analog audio connections

BDP-83: For use with all audio systems via HDMI and digital optical/coaxial connections

Thus according to the manufacturer it would seem that the Special Edition architecture is wasted for digital out and that if your goal is digital out you are better off with the standard BDP-83.  Is this a correct interpretation and are the manufacturer's recommendations sound?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 16 Jun 2010, 07:16 pm
The recommendations from the Oppo website comparison page are:

BDP-83 Special Edition: For use with high-end audio systems via analog audio connections

BDP-83: For use with all audio systems via HDMI and digital optical/coaxial connections

Thus according to the manufacturer it would seem that the Special Edition architecture is wasted for digital out and that if your goal is digital out you are better off with the standard BDP-83.  Is this a correct interpretation and are the manufacturer's recommendations sound?

I have a whole thread and several paragraphs of reviews I did on the SE vs stock.  Net/net, the way we're using the Oppo (via HDMI and Atlona) the changes to the DAC chips and analog outs are meaningless in our scenario.  Buy the stock Oppo if using an external DAC (via Atlona or via stock optical/coax) or if using HDMI to your AVR.  Buy the SE or NE if using analog outs (NE improves even more the dedicated stereo analog out over the SE, but very little upgrade to the mch outs).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 16 Jun 2010, 07:38 pm
Your statements also seem to support the following FAQ from the NuForce website:

Question - “I am running HDMI from my Oppo BDP-83 to my AVR/AVP. Does this give me better performance?"
Answer - "Unfortunately, no. The Oppo SE and Nuforce Edition’s superior performance centers on the analog audio board. This has no impact on HDMI’s digital performance.”

The NuForce website also states that the Oppo BDP-83SE player incorporates ESS Technology’s state-of-the-art Sabre DAC, widely acknowledged as one of the industry’s best. 

The thing I’m trying to understand if the stock Oppo and an external DAC via the Atlona is sonically superior to the Oppo’s internal Sabre DAC then how can anyone acknowledge the Sabre DAC as one of the industry’s best?  I assume that the sonics that you hear are not just different but clearly significant and superior.

While the Weiss DAC2 is no slouch, I assume one would achieve similar results with many other external DACs such as those from Benchmark, Bryston, Wavelength Audio, Berkeley Audio, or Metric Halo.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: doctorcilantro on 16 Jun 2010, 07:41 pm
Because soley the DAC chip makes not the DAC.  :green:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 16 Jun 2010, 07:43 pm
Because soley the DAC chip makes not the DAC.  :green:

+100  :thumb:

For example, I'll take Dan Wright's analog stage with pretty much any DAC chip made in the last ten yrs vs the Sabre 32 and an analog stage from Onkyo.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 17 Jun 2010, 05:49 pm
On SACD the Atlona box optical out provided the most musical of the three examples, with the HDTracks file a close second.

Upon further review, does this mean that your optical disc player and toslink connections provides superior sonics to your Mac music server and software? 

Do you find this to be also true with playback of RDBK CD/Oppo digital out/Weiss DAC2 vs. 16/44.1 rip/Pure Music/Mac digital out/Weiss DAC2?  If not, would the Atlona tip the balance back to favor the optical disc player?

Since many people have reported superior sonics from a computer music server/DAC vs CD transport/DAC, do you think the problem is with the HDTracks download or the Mac music server and software?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 Jun 2010, 05:56 pm
Upon further review, does this mean that your optical disc player and toslink connections provides superior sonics to your Mac music server and software? 

Do you find this to be also true with playback of RDBK CD/Oppo digital out/Weiss DAC2 vs. 16/44.1 rip/Pure Music/Mac digital out/Weiss DAC2?  If not, would the Atlona tip the balance back to favor the optical disc player?

Since many people have reported superior sonics from a computer music server/DAC vs CD transport/DAC, do you think the problem is with the HDTracks download or the Mac music server and software?

I think the HD Tracks download is fine, and on further listening is basically identical to the Atlona realtime optical feed (Atlona seems a few percent more dynamic; HDTracks/PM seems a bit smoother...we are splitting minute hairs here and you'd never win via blind a/b..so it may simply be my subconscious...it's that close).  For redbook, this is not true...Macbook/Pure music trumps every time.  However, redbook is better via Atloan than vai Oppo analog, by a failry good margin. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: joey116 on 19 Jun 2010, 12:49 pm
Hi ted_b, please excuse the newbie question, I am using a Bryston SP2 (no HDMI) am I correct that for this device to work I would have to have my HDMI TV on? Something I would rather not do if we are listening to audio only.

Thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 19 Jun 2010, 12:57 pm
Joey116,
What is your DAC?  And yes, you'd either reed the tv on (to some non tv input maybe?) or buy something like th Gefen HDMI detective I linked back on page 1 or 2.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: joey116 on 19 Jun 2010, 01:05 pm
Thanks, I am still in the early stages of this, the external DAC has not been purchased yet, I would probably favor the Bryston BDA1, however may wait for the SP3 (pricing \ features) the fewer boxes that I end up with would be preferred.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ctle on 28 Jun 2010, 02:16 am
Hi ted_b,
Thanks for the info.
Have you been able to capture hi-rez music from SACD onto your Mac HD?

Regards,
ctle
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Jun 2010, 03:02 am
you mean PCM from the Atlona?  No, I have no real way of doing this.  I'm not a recording guru, and it would be in realtime, with the need to somehow then break the stream into song tracks.  Yuck.  I'll just spin the SACD's I own.   :o  For future purchases, if I want just the 2 channel I'll see if Bruce Brown's great DSD-to-PCM HDTracks transfers are an option, but most likely I'll buy the SACD for it's additional multichannel content anyway.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ctle on 28 Jun 2010, 03:34 am
I have an Oppo BDP 83 connected to the Portta HDMI 4 Ports Switcher with Audio Output
http://www.port-ta.com/show.asp?id=203 (http://www.port-ta.com/show.asp?id=203)
When playing SACDs my DAC displayed 24/88.2 kHz but I managed to record only 44.1 onto MBP's hard drive via Audiofile Engineering Wave Editor??? Maybe I need a hi-rez sound card to capture hirez-music?

ctle
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Jun 2010, 03:44 am
I have an Oppo BDP 83 connected to the Portta HDMI 4 Ports Switcher with Audio Output
http://www.port-ta.com/show.asp?id=203 (http://www.port-ta.com/show.asp?id=203)
When playing SACDs my DAC displayed 24/88.2 kHz but I managed to record only 44.1 onto MBP's hard drive via Audiofile Engineering Wave Editor??? Maybe I need a hi-rez sound card to capture hirez-music?

ctle

Wow, so you can get the same result from this as from the HDMI audio de-embedder? I currently use an HDMI Switch (without a digital audio out).  I didn't see a price.  What does it cost and where can you buy it?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ctle on 28 Jun 2010, 03:57 am
I purchased this unit for US$69 from ebay last week.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HDMI-4x1-HIFI-Switch-Toslink-Coaxial-Stereo-Audio-V1-3b-/260623243516?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cae5b18fc#ht_1682wt_912 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HDMI-4x1-HIFI-Switch-Toslink-Coaxial-Stereo-Audio-V1-3b-/260623243516?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cae5b18fc#ht_1682wt_912)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Jun 2010, 03:57 am
I purchased this unit for US$69 from ebay last week.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HDMI-4x1-HIFI-Switch-Toslink-Coaxial-Stereo-Audio-V1-3b-/260623243516?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cae5b18fc#ht_1682wt_912 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HDMI-4x1-HIFI-Switch-Toslink-Coaxial-Stereo-Audio-V1-3b-/260623243516?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cae5b18fc#ht_1682wt_912)

thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Jun 2010, 04:27 am
No Phil, not "same result".  The Porta, like the other non-Atlona ones I mentioned, are not capable of anything near BluRay and DVD-Audio's 24/192.  I was told 24/48 (which is what you recorded) but you say the DAC regsitered 24/88?  But yes, you save $130. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ctle on 28 Jun 2010, 04:47 am
I haven't tried 24/192 but I can confirm the Portta works with 24/88.2 and 24/96.
I got the info from this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/455769/ripping-sacds-via-spdif-at-176-4-with-a-ps3 (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/455769/ripping-sacds-via-spdif-at-176-4-with-a-ps3)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Jun 2010, 05:20 am
I haven't tried 24/192 but I can confirm the Portta works with 24/88.2 and 24/96.
I got the info from this thread: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/455769/ripping-sacds-via-spdif-at-176-4-with-a-ps3 (http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/455769/ripping-sacds-via-spdif-at-176-4-with-a-ps3)

Cool, that's where I got started on this too..  Chuck (emmodad on that forum) is who I have been working with on this Atlona find.  He confirmed that he tested a few others and they did not produce good results at 24/96 or above (sorry...should edit above post...I meant to say 24/96 not 24/48)...but maybe this one you have will!  Keep us posted!  I realize we're talking about less than $100, but if one saves a few bucks and does the same thing, let's report it.  Thanks.

By the way, does your DAC truly tell you bit depth too (i.e 24 bit, or just sample rate)?  if so, I'd love for you to trial the Atlona and completely confirm the 24 bit issue. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ctle on 28 Jun 2010, 10:00 am
My DAC is a 24/92 DAC thus I'm unable to test 24/192 DVD-A/Blu-ray disc. It displays only sample rate (96kHz)

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Jun 2010, 11:18 pm
No Phil, not "same result".  The Porta, like the other non-Atlona ones I mentioned, are not capable of anything near BluRay and DVD-Audio's 24/192.  I was told 24/48 (which is what you recorded) but you say the DAC regsitered 24/88?  But yes, you save $130.

Ted thanks - I ordered it anyway.  I ordered from Markertek a couple of weeks aback and held off on the Atlona for now.  I use the Oppo HDMI switch anyway now and figured it was worth a try with the Bryston DAC for my Modwright Oppo BDP-83.  I could always probably find a use for it eventually in the secondary basement system.  I have a Marantz DV9600 (HDMI 1.1) and can probably use it with an old Micromega DAC that stills sounds pretty decent at least on DVD-A.  $68 is an easy buy for something I can use anyway to switch HDMI
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 29 Jun 2010, 10:41 pm
Hi ted_b,

You may have finally convinced me that SACDs are a dead end if you want superior sonics.  I only wish the Atlona solution you describe was capable of 24/176.4 PCM.  I also wish that the Atlona unit had coaxial in addition to toslink output.

This thread has been very thought provoking but at the end of this day I am concluding that:

1. The Oppo BDP-83 SE (and probably the NuForce Edition) will always come in second (if not mid-fi) compared to your solution using a vastly superior DAC.
2. All things being equal 24/176.4 PCM is usually far superior to 24/88.2 PCM.
3. Mixing audio and video over HDMI will always result in a sonic compromise and noise or higher jitter.  This reminds me of what a Best Buy salesman in their reference home theater section tried to tell me that component video was superior to HDMI for video.
4. Thus what I really want is just the 24/176.4, 24/192, DSD64 or DSD128 digital files either as a download or on a DVD data disc.
5. The exception to this would be for multi-channel where one may be willing to compromise a stock Oppo BDP and a A/V HDMI receiver with digital room correction (or the Oppo SE/NE and high end preamp/amp w/o DRC) in order to have the superior sonics of multi-channel audio over stereo.

Fortunately I am hopeful that more record labels will offer high rez digital downloads or data discs in addition to SACD disc offerings.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: PLMONROE on 6 Jul 2010, 04:10 am
Ted, I am indebted to you! After reading this thread I just had to get one of these for my 2 channel sound system. I ordered the Altona AT-HD570 and to provide the HDMI handshaking a Sharpe LC-19SB27UT LCD TV. What a beautiful little set, terrific reception on an indoor antenna,  and it has a PC input so I can also use it as my PC monitor as well. I hooked it up to my DAC and Oppo 83 and it worked beautifully right off the bat! But alas I now have a REALLY, REALLY stupid question -- the manual says it "supports digital dolby 5.1/2 and LPCM 2 channels output through optical fiber". So do I set the little slide switch to the 5.1/2 or 2 channel position?  I tried both and both sound great! :scratch:

Paul
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 6 Jul 2010, 01:21 pm
Paul,
Thanks.  The mnaul is not very good about explaining that switch.  I would guess for our 2 channel needs that it doesn't matter (and experiments seem to support that).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Gopher on 6 Jul 2010, 05:27 pm
This is interesting to me.  If I wanted to feed my PS3 into one of these devices for the purposes of watching Blurays in 2.0 through my Minimax Sabre 32 DAC, would I run into problems with the source being set for multiple channels? 

I.e.  Can I just use an input on my DAC for movie purposes and avoid the analog out adapter to enjoy high quality 2.0 audio in my rig?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: srb on 6 Jul 2010, 05:32 pm
This is interesting to me.  If I wanted to feed my PS3 into one of these devices for the purposes of watching Blurays in 2.0 through my Minimax Sabre 32 DAC, would I run into problems with the source being set for multiple channels? 

I.e.  Can I just use an input on my DAC for movie purposes and avoid the analog out adapter to enjoy high quality 2.0 audio in my rig?

I'm pretty sure most all of the standalone stereo DACs, when fed something other than 2 channel PCM, will either emit a nasty digital noise or mute it.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 6 Jul 2010, 06:16 pm
This is interesting to me.  If I wanted to feed my PS3 into one of these devices for the purposes of watching Blurays in 2.0 through my Minimax Sabre 32 DAC, would I run into problems with the source being set for multiple channels? 

I.e.  Can I just use an input on my DAC for movie purposes and avoid the analog out adapter to enjoy high quality 2.0 audio in my rig?

I'd set the PS3 for 2.0 downmix, send HDMI through the Atlona, passes out to your tv, and then simply use the Atlona's optical out to your DAC.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Gopher on 6 Jul 2010, 08:51 pm
But if I'm down mixing it first, its not high definition audio anymore, is it?  I mean, if I were going to go that route for bluray (don't have older SACD ps3) I might as well just set it to two channel and use my PS3s optical out for movies and such? 

In fact... hmm... I'm going to try that tonight--I bet it sounds much better than the analogs.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 6 Jul 2010, 10:00 pm
But if I'm down mixing it first, its not high definition audio anymore, is it?  I mean, if I were going to go that route for bluray (don't have older SACD ps3) I might as well just set it to two channel and use my PS3s optical out for movies and such? 

In fact... hmm... I'm going to try that tonight--I bet it sounds much better than the analogs.

You are confusing me.  Your first post said that you had to keep it as multichannel (therefore a downmix is needed)
Quote
would I run into problems with the source being set for multiple channels
But the best way is to choose the hirez 2.0 LPCM layer of the Bluray for output.  This way you get pure 2.0 LPCM and grab it off the HDMI at up to 24/192.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 11 Jul 2010, 02:52 am
I purchased this unit for US$69 from ebay last week.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HDMI-4x1-HIFI-Switch-Toslink-Coaxial-Stereo-Audio-V1-3b-/260623243516?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cae5b18fc#ht_1682wt_912 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/HDMI-4x1-HIFI-Switch-Toslink-Coaxial-Stereo-Audio-V1-3b-/260623243516?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cae5b18fc#ht_1682wt_912)

I picked up my unit (shipped from Hong Kong and bought from E-Bay in Australia) from the Post Office earlier and have listened to 8 or 9 things so far.  I have a Modwright Oppo BDP-83 with the clock option into my Bryston DAC.  The DAC indicates 88.2 (and I listened upsampled to 176.4).  Definitely was better through the DAC and less PCM-like than the analog outs of the modded Oppo.  Definitely a great improvement for so little.  Thanks, again
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Jul 2010, 02:22 am
I've been doing some reading and apparently the Arcam universals (DV137 and DV139) can output 24/176.4 from SACD over HDMI.  A guy on Audiogon claims to be a legit dealer and is selling the DV137 for $600.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Jul 2010, 03:28 am
Tonight, I enabled HDMI Audio (Auto) on the Oppo BDP-83 and played a couple of 192kHz DVD-As.  I stuck in "Sinatra Live at the Sands" and the Eagles "Hotel California."  In both cases, the 192kHz indicator lit on the Bryston DAC.  I played a cut on each with no issues.  They sounded really good.  During the playing of the Eagles disc, I switched inputs on the DAC to the coaxial digital output directly from the BDP-83.  I only went back and forth for about 30 seconds on the one song and while I didn't do an in depth comparison, I could not hear any readily obvious differences in audio quality from the DAC inputs.  So, the Portta box can support 192kHz.  I don't imagine I'd see any differences in video quality between that in the Oppo but at some point I'll try a couple of Blu-Ray discs and see what I think.  So far, it's a great $69 tweak.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Jul 2010, 04:40 am
By the way, I tested a couple of minutes of video.  I had to turn my projector on and off since I never got a firmware update for it (requires you to send it away) and it does this weird thing when it switches from 1080/24 to 1080/60 (but not the other way around) and colors are off and it has a blotchy cartoon like look to it.  It registered 1080/24 and looked good after I cycled it on again.  You don't need a display on for passing hi-rez PCM from SACD or from from DVD-A, but obviously for DVD-A you need to select from the menu (some are authored to a spec that allows the audio to be changed from multi-channel to stereo via the audio button on the remote but it helps to have a display on to see that).  It's not a problem for me as I have a 19 inch LCD about 7 feet from the listening chair and I have composite video going from several sources (via a manual composite video switch) into the TV since I don't want to waste projector bulb life to navigate DVD-A or if I'm dubbing a video source to DVD from the front inputs of the DVD recorder.  Easy to turn on the 19 inch TV and monitor it.  All in all I'd say so far the Portta is great $69 tweak.  I sent them an E-Mail too as they are not on Logitech Harmony's database.  I wonder if a better power supply would do anything for the sound?  I have it plugged into my Torus power conditioner though
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: wilbur1 on 1 Aug 2010, 10:05 pm
Hi Ted - very interesting and informative. Like others it seems, I am toying with the idea of trying to take audio via HDMI and then use my current converts etc to get the best results. The new-ish Sony Sony SCD-XA5400ES presents a particular challenge in this regard, as it ONLY outputs SACD multichannel via HDMI. Without buying a new processor, therefore, the only way to have multichannel with this machine is to somehow de-embedd the audio via another means. Do you think this Altona unit would work for this!? Thanks!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 1 Aug 2010, 10:08 pm
Hi Ted - very interesting and informative. Like others it seems, I am toying with the idea of trying to take audio via HDMI and then use my current converts etc to get the best results. The new-ish Sony Sony SCD-XA5400ES presents a particular challenge in this regard, as it ONLY outputs SACD multichannel via HDMI. Without buying a new processor, therefore, the only way to have multichannel with this machine is to somehow de-embedd the audio via another means. Do you think this Altona unit would work for this!? Thanks!

I would guess it would work with the Atlona's analog outs
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: wilbur1 on 1 Aug 2010, 10:51 pm
Thanks Phil. Yes, I imagine the analoque outputs would work, but I am only interested if we can get the digital ones to work too! I'll keep researching. Thanks!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 2 Aug 2010, 12:20 am
Thanks Phil. Yes, I imagine the analoque outputs would work, but I am only interested if we can get the digital ones to work too! I'll keep researching. Thanks!

You'll need the (mini-jack?) adapters on the analog outs to the stereo interconnects.  I'm not sure but I don't think you can pass digital multi-channel.  I have the Portta HDMI switch/audio de-embedder and not tried anything except stereo SACD from the Oppo BDP-83
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 2 Aug 2010, 12:28 am
The Atlona does three things only:
1) for hirez, passes 2 channel de-embedded audio from HDMI to optical
2) HDMi pass-thru
3) de-embeds and converts up to 7.1 analog multichannel to 4 stereo miniplugs

So, no hirez digital multichannel.  But then again, unless you go to a multichannel DAC like Metric Halo (like I will) or Orpheus Prism, what the heck would you do with multichannel digital.  Me, I'll likely get a my Oppo eventually modded to Shawn Fogg's 4 s/pdif board to capture multichannel digital to a Metric halo LIO-8.  In the meantime, these less-than-$200 de-embedder boxes are wonderful non-invasive (no mod needed) solutions for full hirez 2 channel.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: john garnet on 5 Aug 2010, 11:02 am
Thankyou so much for this Ted. I went through all this 12 months ago and even bought a box from Ambery Corp and a Neil Young Blu-Ray box but gave up on it all when it was apparent that the Ambery box was not up to the task. I even sold my unopened Neil Young box :x. I've just ordered an Atlona box ($155 from Amazon) and I'll probably spring for an Oppo BDP-80 into my Brysto BDA-1 dac.

 A question: I'm going to start purchasing Blu-Ray, SACD and DVD Audio discs. Are multi-channel discs from these formats playable as 2 channel discs with no loss of resolution? Or do I have to purchase Stereo only discs? I know that SACD has both stereo and multi-channel discs. Is the Pink Floyd 30th anniversary 5.1 SACD of Dark Side Of The Moon playable as SACD stereo?

John
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 5 Aug 2010, 12:00 pm
John,
Welcome to AC!

Almost all hirez discs have a stereo layer (DVD-Audio is the biggest culprit but then it's still 80%+).  I'd choose the stereo layer rather than downmixing with your player. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: john garnet on 5 Aug 2010, 12:52 pm
Thanks Ted.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: john garnet on 6 Aug 2010, 07:28 am
On the Atlona website, there is a more advanced version of the HD570 called the HD577. This features RCA outputs in place of 3.5mm ports, coaxial as well as optical out and two HDMI inputs. Cost is about $279. Could also be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: john garnet on 6 Aug 2010, 01:33 pm
Ok, maybe a stupid question but since I've only been a 2 channel guy all my life, let's say my source is an Oppo BDP-80 whose HDMI goes into the Atlona HD 570. Now, if the hi-res is output via optical to my Bryston BDA-1 dac and I also have the multi-channel outputs of the HD 570 connected to a multi-channel analogue pre amp like a McIntosh C45, will I be able to get hi-res multi-channel sound or can the Atlona only provide hi-res stereo?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 7 Aug 2010, 01:24 am
The multichannel outs from the Atlona will work fine
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: strat95 on 8 Aug 2010, 03:26 am
On the Atlona website, there is a more advanced version of the HD570 called the HD577. This features RCA outputs in place of 3.5mm ports, coaxial as well as optical out and two HDMI inputs. Cost is about $279. Could also be worthwhile.

Good find John.  It also appears to have an optical and coaxial output.  Does this mean high rez output via coaxial too?  What is the maximum resolution that coaxial can carry?

TV

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 8 Aug 2010, 12:19 pm
Good find John.  It also appears to have an optical and coaxial output.  Does this mean high rez output via coaxial too?  What is the maximum resolution that coaxial can carry?

TV

I don't know about maximum but it won't have any trouble with 192kHz.  My Portta box passes it.  By the way, that box is a good find.  It is an HDMI switch too -

https://www.hdwise.com/manuals/PDF_files/AT-HD577_manual.pdf
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 8 Aug 2010, 01:13 pm
Wow!  Nice find of this great new box.  Looks like it also does EDID learning, meaning you wouldn't'have to have the HDMI backend connected or on necessarily, once learned.  I may just have to ask Atlona for a demo unit.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: john garnet on 9 Aug 2010, 06:22 am
Another basic question: I intend to set up a multi channel system in the near future using a multi channel analogue preamp (McIntosh C45 -music performance is most important to me, not so worried about movies). So using the Atlona into my Bryston dac is fine for stereo however, I think I would go for an Oppo BD83se for its quite decent multi channel performance. So when connecting the 7.1 analogue outs, would you connect them straight from the Oppo to the C45 or would you need to take them from the Atlona to the C45 ( HDMI from Oppo to Atlona, analogue outs from Atlona to C45)?

Thanks,
John
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Aug 2010, 10:48 am
Go straight from the SE.  Much better analog section.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: john garnet on 9 Aug 2010, 11:03 am
Thanks Ted!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jsalk on 16 Aug 2010, 05:25 pm
Wow!  Nice find of this great new box.  Looks like it also does EDID learning, meaning you wouldn't'have to have the HDMI backend connected or on necessarily, once learned.  I may just have to ask Atlona for a demo unit.  :)

Just ordered one.  Hopefully I can use it with an outboard DAC without having to have an HDMI receiver or screen on the back end.  I'll report back when it arrives.

- Jim
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: markm1111 on 17 Aug 2010, 02:36 am
Please excuse my ignorance, but I am a little confused....

How is this different to just running an optical or coax digital cable straight from the bluray player to the dac? I currently run my HDMI to the tv (makes it easy for my wife), coax digital to my Bel Canto Dac3, and optical digital to my Onkyo AVR.

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 17 Aug 2010, 02:52 am
Please excuse my ignorance, but I am a little confused....

How is this different to just running an optical or coax digital cable straight from the bluray player to the dac? I currently run my HDMI to the tv (makes it easy for my wife), coax digital to my Bel Canto Dac3, and optical digital to my Onkyo AVR.

Am I missing something?

You can't get SACD or high rez PCM converted from SACD through a coax or an optical digital out.  I bought the Port-ta HDMI switch which also de-embeds the audio (over coax or optical) and will pass 192kHz for that reason.  My Oppo converts SACD to 24/88.2kHz PCM (chip limited - some things can do 176.4) and it goes into my Bryston DAC and gets upconverted to 176.4.  So far I like it going through the DAC a bit more vs. my modded Oppo over the analog outs and I've ordered an upgraded power supply for my Squeezebox Touch which will also work on my de-embedder
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 17 Aug 2010, 03:10 am
Please excuse my ignorance, but I am a little confused....

How is this different to just running an optical or coax digital cable straight from the bluray player to the dac? I currently run my HDMI to the tv (makes it easy for my wife), coax digital to my Bel Canto Dac3, and optical digital to my Onkyo AVR.

Am I missing something?

The Atlona de-embedders also have analog outs so someone with a multi-channel input (but no HDMI) can get Dolby True HD into their system.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 Aug 2010, 03:34 am
Please excuse my ignorance, but I am a little confused....

How is this different to just running an optical or coax digital cable straight from the bluray player to the dac? I currently run my HDMI to the tv (makes it easy for my wife), coax digital to my Bel Canto Dac3, and optical digital to my Onkyo AVR.

Am I missing something?

To add to what the others stated, the standard coax or toslink is limited to redbook (16/44), lossy Dolby Digital, or DVD-Audio up to 24/912k.  It will not send PCM-converted SACD (up to 24/88.2k) or BluRay codecs like TrueHD or DTS HD MA (up to 24/192k).  Those need HDMI..which these boxes grab and de-embed.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: EDS_ on 17 Aug 2010, 04:14 am
tagged

Awesome thread. :D :D :D
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: markm1111 on 17 Aug 2010, 04:37 am
Thanks guys

Makes sense now. My bluray player isn't a universal player so it doesn't play SACD or DVD-A, but I might look into this just for the bluray audio

Cheers
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 23 Aug 2010, 11:42 pm
PS - I talked a friend into getting the Port-ta box which he just received and he told me Monoprice has the same box with their name on it and I looked at their site and it looks identical -  http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Fife on 24 Aug 2010, 05:54 am
Using the Ps3 to Porta to SA50, no issues with 24/96 or 24/192 from blu-Ray discs. Works like a charm.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Aug 2010, 04:29 pm
Positive reports of another HDMi de-embbeder, this time the Octava HDDA51 (reprinted from NAIM DAC forum):
Hi Hook and all

Today I received my modified EDID and it works Big Grin .

I now have high-resolution digital audio from my Oppo BDP-83 over SPDIF which has been de-embedded from Oppo's HDMI-output by my Octava HDDA51. I get this from both DVD-Audio and SACD.
From DVD-Audio was no issue really because that is also output over Oppo's own SPDIF. But from SACD was an issue because Oppo converts the DSD-layer into 88.2 kHz PCM but only outputs this over HDMI and this HDMI can normally only be processed by HDMI-capable devices.
The Oppo will of course also process the DSD-layer and output it over its analogue outputs. But I think the Naim DAC (esp. with XPS-2 or higher PSU) far better than Oppo's internal DSD-processor/DAC.

Since the Naim DAC cannot handle HDMI connections I have been looking for other ways of obtaining a SPDIF digital signal from SACDs to have it processed by my Naim DAC. This is were the Octava comes into play.

I bought an Octava HDDA51, which is an HDMI switch (5 input & 1 output) but which also de-embeds the digital audio from the HDMI signal and outputs it over SPDIF TosLink or COAX. Other HDDA-models are also available and I guess they will work the same way, but I have checked.

Now a little bit of theory about HDMI Frown

With the HDMI technology it is such that a source (eg. SACD-player) will only send a signal (audio or video) of a resolution it knows the receiver (TV-set, AV-processor etc) is capable of processing. So it will only send a 192 kHz audio signal if it knows for sure that the receiver will be able to process a 192 kHz audio signal. This exchange of capabilities is done during what is called the HDMI-handshake. If a HDMI-receiver is not capable of processing a high resolution signal or the handshake failed then the source will revert to a low resolution signal.

The Octava HDMI-switches will pass-on any data between connected sources and receivers, and will by default not interfere with the data that is being passed.

This all works fine if you've got two devices that have an HDMI-connection. Our Naim DAC doesn't have an HDMI-connection and many earlier type AV-processors didn't either. Normally this means you cannot receive high-resolution data from the source, even though your receiver device can process it (like our Naim DAC which can go up to 192 kHz over SPDIF), just because the receiver lacks the HDMI-connection.

This is where the special capabilities of the Octava HDDA HDMI-splitters come into play.
The Octava HDDA splitter are provided with an extra set of two chips that can replace the original ones. One chip contains the firmware which has been adapted such that the Octava now does interfere in the information exchange between source and receiver. What it does is that it now returns the capabilities of the non-HDMI device that is attached to the SPDIF coax or toslink.
These capabilities of the non-HDMI device are stored in the second replacement chip, the so called static EDID. The EDID is an industry wide standard for defining audio and video capabilities of consumer devices and is normally inbuilt in the electronics of consumer devices. The Octava HDDA splitter has an exchangable EDID-chip.

The EDID-chip that I received with my Octava HDDA51 was coded in such a way that it didn't (properly) specify the LPCM capabilities as being able to process high resolution audio.

My dealer, that supplies both Octava and Oppo BDP-83, could create an updated EDID chip with the proper LPCM high-resolution definition and now voila: high-resolution SACD output (that is 88.2 kHz LPCM because that is what the Oppo converts the DSD stream to)!!

Now I understand how all this works, I think it should be even possible for those that are also a bit handy in electronics to create update EDID chips themselves.
There are free EDID programs out there available that help you create an EDID-definition binary, which is bl****dy difficult stuff on the video side so you would need a good starting point, but is remarkably easy for the audio side of things. When you also have access to the proper E-EPROM programmer then it is quite easy to program a replacement EDID-chip.

For those that are not so handy, find a proper dealer and explain him what you want and it should be quite easy for him to do. For those looking for a good dealer, I know one who can do it and will ship also internationally. Winker

So if any questions remain, ask them.

-
aleg
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 14 Sep 2010, 02:30 am
I received the Monoprice HDMI audio de-embedder.  It does look identical to the Port-ta box.  I posted a few pictures in my Gallery.  Hopefully by the coming weekend I'll have a chance to test it to see if it can pass 192kHz audio too.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mrhyfy on 14 Sep 2010, 02:41 am
I've got the monoprice switcher,,doesn't seem to fool my oppo bdp-83 into out putting a hi- rez signal from dvd-a's or sacd's.I suspect it doesn't complete the hdmi handshake completely. Rate is limited to 48k no matter how I tweek the oppo
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 14 Sep 2010, 11:01 pm
I've got the monoprice switcher,,doesn't seem to fool my oppo bdp-83 into out putting a hi- rez signal from dvd-a's or sacd's.I suspect it doesn't complete the hdmi handshake completely. Rate is limited to 48k no matter how I tweek the oppo

I am running January (2010) firmware in the Oppo.  A bit ago, someone sent me a PM they had problems with later firmware and I believe had to adjust one of the settings.  I will be trying it probably at some point.  The Port-ta box, which sure looks identical, has no problems passing 192kHz
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 14 Sep 2010, 11:30 pm
I could be wrong but I don't think you would get output with handshake issues that was stable.  The FAQ still shows Oppo can output 24/88.2.  I'll see if I can try it a bit later.  The power supply, although it has the same output, I believe is a different Wall Wart and I want to also make sure it is the same connector/polarity (I have the other one in the box as I got an upgraded power supply for the Squeezebox Touch and it also fits the Port-ta box).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 15 Sep 2010, 02:12 am
I've got the monoprice switcher,,doesn't seem to fool my oppo bdp-83 into out putting a hi- rez signal from dvd-a's or sacd's.I suspect it doesn't complete the hdmi handshake completely. Rate is limited to 48k no matter how I tweek the oppo

I didn't have much time but I tested the Monoprice unit.  The power supply from the Monoprice unit worked on the Port-ta unit.  I plugged the Monoprice unit in and the remote from the Port-ta unit worked.  I put in an SACD and the DAC locked on the 88.2kHz signal.  I put in a 192kHz DVD-A and the DAC also locked on the signal.  While I spent less than 3 minutes, I'd have to conclude they are the same unit.

Do you have secondary audio set to off?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: NordicNorm on 15 Sep 2010, 03:56 pm
Hey Phil!

What model of Bryston DAC are you using? I've bought the monoprice box to hook up to my Oppo 980H but I just noticed my DAC will only go up to 96kHz!?

So I'm now looking to upgrade my DAC. Any recommendations/endorsements would be appreciated.

cheers,
Norm
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 15 Sep 2010, 04:24 pm
Hey Phil!

What model of Bryston DAC are you using? I've bought the monoprice box to hook up to my Oppo 980H but I just noticed my DAC will only go up to 96kHz!?

So I'm now looking to upgrade my DAC. Any recommendations/endorsements would be appreciated.

cheers,
Norm

Let's take DAC recommendations to another thread, please.  There are quite a few DACs that go to 24/192 (several I've reviewed and had inhouse).  When starting the thread, mention budget and associated equipment.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mrhyfy on 16 Sep 2010, 11:55 pm
I didn't have much time but I tested the Monoprice unit.  The power supply from the Monoprice unit worked on the Port-ta unit.  I plugged the Monoprice unit in and the remote from the Port-ta unit worked.  I put in an SACD and the DAC locked on the 88.2kHz signal.  I put in a 192kHz DVD-A and the DAC also locked on the signal.  While I spent less than 3 minutes, I'd have to conclude they are the same unit.

Do you have secondary audio set to off?


I guess  that I didn't explain myself well..it does work but my dac indicates a 48 k signal even though I have set my oppo to output up to 192 k.I'm using a matrix mini dac.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 Sep 2010, 12:10 am

I guess  that I didn't explain myself well..it does work but my dac indicates a 48 k signal even though I have set my oppo to output up to 192 k.I'm using a matrix mini dac.

No, your explanation (again) is clear...it is not working for you.  And the HDMi handshake is either signal or no signal.  48K is not the hirez signal we are expecting.  My Atlona does 88k for SACD and up to 192k for DVD-A and Bluray....as does both Phil's Porta and Monoprice. 

Do you have SACD set to PCM?  What does the DAC say.  Do you have LPCM in the Oppo set to 192k?  What does the DAC say for DVD-audio or BluRay?  Sounds like 48k in both instances? 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mrhyfy on 17 Sep 2010, 01:08 am
I have the oppo set to pcm out for sacd and hdmi. It is set for 192k max output.  If I play a dvd-a via the coax output, I read 96k on my dac.Any blu-ray ,dvd-a or sacd shows as 48k on the dac when using the monoprice hdmi switcher to coax to dac
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 Sep 2010, 01:41 am
I have the oppo set to pcm out for sacd and hdmi. It is set for 192k max output.  If I play a dvd-a via the coax output, I read 96k on my dac.Any blu-ray ,dvd-a or sacd shows as 48k on the dac when using the monoprice hdmi switcher to coax to dac

Which Oppo do you have (edit: dumb question.....does SACD and BluRay..must be BDP83)?  Do you have it set for 720P or above?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mrhyfy on 17 Sep 2010, 01:45 am
oppo bdp-83,,video set for 1080p
thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 Sep 2010, 01:52 am
oppo bdp-83,,video set for 1080p
thanks
Weird stuff.  Could it be a faulty (less than HDMI 1.2) hdmi cable?  Something set on Oppo, like HDMI audio off, etc?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mrhyfy on 17 Sep 2010, 01:58 am
I will try another cable,,,thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 17 Sep 2010, 02:09 am
I am looking at my Oppo BDP-83 setting checklist - http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-83_Settings_Checklist.pdf


SACD Priority is Stereo
Secondary Audio is Off
HDMI Audio is Auto
SACD Output is PCM
Coaxial/Optical output is LCPM
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mrhyfy on 17 Sep 2010, 02:22 am
Check on all counts,,  my switcher is the HDX 401ta,,,perhaps it's an older version??Mine does NOT have 2.0/5.1 audio led after input "4"
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=1#largeimage
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 17 Sep 2010, 02:43 am
Check on all counts,,  my switcher is the HDX 401ta,,,perhaps it's an older version??Mine does NOT have 2.0/5.1 audio led after input "4"
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

My box says HDX-401TA and does have the 2.0/5.1 audio LED after input 4.  My friend who played with the Port-ta unit claims (I have not had much time lately) that is sounds better at 5.1 and passes everything through.  The PID is 5557 on the box and it indicates on the box "Supports uncompressed high resolution audio formats such as LCPM* - where the * says must have compatible devices that support these features in order to utilize them.

When I initially contacted Port-ta via E-Mail, they were nice (answered within a couple of days) but I don't think initially they understood my question about passing hi-rez audio and via their response I have a feeling that their E-Mail reading is done via a translating program.  Both boxes register 192kHz audio on my DAC.  I just got my Monoprice unit on Monday.  I placed an order for a bunch of stuff and I figured as long as I was paying shipping anyway for $48+ it was worth it to have a back-up.  The Monoprice manual also notes it supports uncompressed audio (as does the Port-ta manual).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ctle on 17 Sep 2010, 10:10 am
I can confirm that Oppo BDP-83/Portta can do 88.2k for SACD and 192k for DVD-A and
Blu-ray.
PS3 (old model) /Portta can do 176.4k for SACD and 192k for Blu-ray (displayed on my W4S DAC2)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 Sep 2010, 01:33 pm
Thanks CTLE!!

By the way, there is a plethora of info on the PS3 as SACD player (also plays DD discs) here:
http://www.ps3sacd.com/

And a FAQ to help identify the older PS3 that is the SACD-compatible one
http://www.ps3sacd.com/faq.html#_Toc180147567
Title: Re:Monoprice/Gefen HDMI Detective/Oppo 780H not working?
Post by: NordicNorm on 30 Sep 2010, 09:04 pm
OK, what am I missing here?

I have my Oppo 780H connected to the Gefen box, which is in turn connected to the Monoprice box. I've tried both coaxial and TOSLink and get nothing?

The Oppo is set up as:

- HDMI -> LPCM
- LPCM rate -> 192kHz
- output -> RAW

The really weird thing? I can now listen to an SACD via the analog audio outputs!? It's not playing the CD layer, since the Oppo registers it as a SACD in the display window?

Is the Oppo streaming the SACD signal as LPCM through the analog out?

Very puzzling!?
Title: Re:Monoprice/Gefen HDMI Detective/Oppo 780H not working?
Post by: ted_b on 30 Sep 2010, 09:19 pm
OK, what am I missing here?

I have my Oppo 780H connected to the Gefen box, which is in turn connected to the Monoprice box. I've tried both coaxial and TOSLink and get nothing?

The Oppo is set up as:

- HDMI -> LPCM
- LPCM rate -> 192kHz
- output -> RAW

The really weird thing? I can now listen to an SACD via the analog audio outputs!? It's not playing the CD layer, since the Oppo registers it as a SACD in the display window?

Is the Oppo streaming the SACD signal as LPCM through the analog out?

Very puzzling!?

What is the Oppo 780, I forget, and Oppo doesn't even list it as a discontinued model?  What Geffen box?  If detective, then it needs top go at the end, as if it were a display or other backend.  What coax and toslink outs, the Monoprice or the Oppo?  What analog outs?  If the Oppo, then that's normal.  Please be specific.  I don't think the solution works with three HDMI cables (oppo, geffen, monoprice).  My $.02 without the above answers, is that the Monoprice box needs to be connected to the Oppo, and also connected to a true HDMi backend (display or processor, or EDID capture device). 

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: NordicNorm on 30 Sep 2010, 10:14 pm
Oppo 980H, sorry!

And yes, I'm using the Gefen HDMI Detective Plus. Isn't the Gefen a "true" EDID capture device?

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're sayng that the correct order is:

Oppo -> Monoprice HDMI audio de-embedder -> Gefen HDMI Detective (where "->" is an HDMI cable)?

Does the monoprice connect to the HDMI "in" port on the Gefen box!?

I'm assuming that the Oppo connects to the input on Monoprice and the Gefen is connected to the output of the monprice?

The coax and toslink are connected between the monprice box and my DAC.

cheers,
Norm
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 30 Sep 2010, 10:17 pm
Ah, that sounds better.  Yes, the Geffen should act as an EDID device (meaning back end of the chain).  It may need to actually hook to a real display or processor device to "learn" the EDID...dunno..check with Geffen instructions.  Also, I would connect one (coax or toslink) not both.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: NordicNorm on 30 Sep 2010, 11:56 pm
OK, I figured it out!

I had the Gefen box hooked up backwards!?

It's now working like a charm!

Thanks for your help Ted!

cheers,
Norm
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Brisso57 on 21 Nov 2010, 11:44 am
So ... just to clarify ... by purchasing the Atlona "thingy" ... I could do the same tricks with a Sony BDP-S370 as with the Oppo unit(s) discussed in this thread?

Thanks

Doug
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 21 Nov 2010, 03:14 pm
So ... just to clarify ... by purchasing the Atlona "thingy" ... I could do the same tricks with a Sony BDP-S370 as with the Oppo unit(s) discussed in this thread?

Thanks

Doug

Not exactly.  The Sony does not support DVD-Audio.  But SACD and Blu-Ray, yes.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Brisso57 on 21 Nov 2010, 07:51 pm
Not exactly.  The Sony does not support DVD-Audio.  But SACD and Blu-Ray, yes.

SACD's are what I have, so it sounds like the combo will do the trick. Excellent!

cheers

Doug
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 21 Nov 2010, 09:58 pm
Doug,
What DAC are you sending the Atlona digital out to?  Once you do, could you please confirm that the 370 also does 24/176 (the 570 and 770 have been confirmed).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Brisso57 on 22 Nov 2010, 01:30 am
Doug,
What DAC are you sending the Atlona digital out to?  Once you do, could you please confirm that the 370 also does 24/176 (the 570 and 770 have been confirmed).

Hi there

I don't actually have a S370 yet. I've been pondering the purchase as an upgrade to my current Pioneer DVD/SACD player ... which is not a blu-ray player.

Just trying to understand my options here  :-)

Doug
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 22 Nov 2010, 01:47 am
Doug,
Regardless of your player options what DAC are you using? The Atlona is only a solution for a DAC's input.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Stevo on 22 Nov 2010, 04:04 am
Many thanks for pointing out the Monoprice link earlier in this thread (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=1#largeimage).

Picked up one of the units and it worked perfectly to split off the HDMI connection off of the XBox into video and digital audio output.
I'll be pairing the monoprice unit with the Oppo BDP-93 in the next couple of days, and plan to use it for the SACD and DVD-A into the W4S DAC-2.

Great find!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 22 Nov 2010, 04:57 am
Many thanks for pointing out the Monoprice link earlier in this thread (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=1#largeimage).

Picked up one of the units and it worked perfectly to split off the HDMI connection off of the XBox into video and digital audio output.
I'll be pairing the monoprice unit with the Oppo BDP-93 in the next couple of days, and plan to use it for the SACD and DVD-A into the W4S DAC-2.

Great find!

It sounds better with no HDMI cable connected to the output (of the audio de-embedder) for both myself and a friend of mine.  So you may want to compare.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 22 Nov 2010, 05:03 am
It sounds better with no HDMI cable connected to the output (of the audio de-embedder) for both myself and a friend of mine.  So you may want to compare.

Phil,
??  So it doesn't need to do a handshake?  Wow, weird.  Of course that means you need a separate player for your movies, etc (i.e real HDMi stuff
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mgalusha on 28 Nov 2010, 02:31 am
I finally started pulling the data off my SACD's last night. Oppo BD-83 > Atlona 577 > ESI Juli@ S/PDIF > Audacity.

So far it's going very well, I've done about 6 of them so far. Not fast since they record in real time but I just start the disc and set a timer to remind me a couple minutes before it's done. Depending on the recording the silence finder in Audacity works pretty well, a little quirky but I think I've got a good handle on it now. If you are planning on doing this one thing to note is that Audacity doesn't have 88,200 as a sample rate in the pull down. Just select other and type it in.

I'm wishing I had an old PS3 so I could get 176.4 but even at 88.2/24 the results are very good. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Nice to get some use out of my 60 or so SACD's.  :thumb:

PS, anyone have an old PS3 they want to trade for an amp. :)

mike
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Nov 2010, 02:48 am
Phil,
??  So it doesn't need to do a handshake?  Wow, weird.  Of course that means you need a separate player for your movies, etc (i.e real HDMi stuff

No, it works fine (with the HDMI cable from the player) just connected to the Port-ta box.  I have the Oppo HDMI switch and i've just been swapping the HDMI cable.  I'll have Oppo BDP-93 here early next week and it will eventually go to the bedroom system (after I play with it for a bit in the main system).  It sits on the other side of the wall to the main system and I already have a bunch of cables going back and forth (and pyramid infrared repeaters to remote control it).  So I can either take the extra HDMI out of the BDP-93 or just leave the BDP-93 in the Marantz SR6003 in the bedroom and the output of that to the Port-ta box.  It's not much of any inconvenience to swap the cables.  The Port-ta also works well as an HDMI switch for movies and disconnecting the output is easy too.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Nov 2010, 02:53 am
Mike - thanks for the update on the recording.  I'm going to be working with a friend of mine in a couple of months to finally build a PC I can also use as a music server with the Squeezebox Touch (right now I'm just using some WMA lossless stuff I had on an external hard drive with an old XP machine I had done for an old Zune player).  I'll likely be getting the same sound card.  My friend has tried a whole bunch of the them.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Nov 2010, 05:07 am
Mike,
Great news that you are ripping these, even at 24/88.2k.  What do you end up with, a cue file and wav file, or have you gone the extra steps of breaking them into extra songs.  I had a couple of album sized wav files and used EAC's silence finder (along with a copy of the album notes to know song length and metadata) and made a cue file easily..which then could be broken up via Foobar, etc.  I ended up with FLAC song tracks.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mgalusha on 28 Nov 2010, 01:45 pm
Phil,

I took an old Dell desktop and rebuilt it with XP as it turns out the Juli@ drivers for win 7 don't support recording from the S/PDIF input or if they do I can't find a way to enable it. Searching around turns out I'm not the only one with this problem and it appears they just didn't bother with the new drivers.

It worked first try with the rebuilt xp box. I have nothing on the box except Audacity and foobar. No anti virus, screen savers and power saving all disabled. I want nothing to interrupt the recording. I'm saving the files to a large usb drive and then plug the drive into my main machine to split the large wave files into tracks. My main desktop has a quad core and 8gb of ram, so the splitting/saving/tagging process is worlds faster than on the old P4 desktop I'm using for capture. Of course I won't hit the internet with this machine. ;)

Ted, as you can tell by the above, I am breaking them into tracks. After cutting the wav I convert them to Flac using the converter in dbPoweramp as it will use all 4 cores and does 4 tracks simultaneously. I the use mp3tag to add the metadata and artwork.

Oh and like Phil, with the Atlona HD577 I don't have anything connected to the HDMI output. I did connect it to the TV when it arrived to learn the handshake and it has no trouble remembering. I have the oppo sitting on my desk with the Atlona on top of it.

mike
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Nov 2010, 03:25 pm
Mike, thanks.  I'll keep following it as it is not that far off when I plan on doing the PC (probably will start to order stuff in late January or early February and hopefully get it together shortly thereafter - always like to monitor if anything will come out of CES new).  I did do some searches on it and will try to see if anything comes of it.  I may contact the company before I get started too.  Here is some things I found (not sure if anything is of great use):
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/422726/esi-juli-windows-7

http://www.fixya.com/support/t4410403-upgraded_os_win_7_but_install_sound

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=57269

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/ESI-JULI-Setup-Configuration-h

http://driverscollection.com/?H=Juli@&By=ESI


Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mgalusha on 29 Nov 2010, 03:14 pm
Phil,

Thanks for the links, I had read most of them already. There is no problem with the win7/64bit drivers for playback or recording from the line in. ESI seems to have omitted the SPDIF input from the devices presented to the OS. At least that is the conclusion I reached as interrogating the devices in Audacity shows the spdif input but lists it as unavailable. It simply doesn't show up in the OS as an input.

As it turns out, I rather like having a dedicated machine for the capture, nothing to contend with the process. I forgot I was recording yesterday and it kept capturing at 88.2/24 for 4 hours, apparently without any issues. Had to do some clean up on that track. ;)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 19 Dec 2010, 11:12 pm
"could you please confirm that the 370 also does 24/176"

I can confirm that it does.  BDP-S370>Monoprice HDX-401TA (set for 5.1, NOT 2ch.  When it's set for 2ch on my setup, SACD limited to 44.1, Blu-Ray limited to 48)>s/pdif from Monoprice>TacT 2.2x>(down the chain, amp & speakers).  When set up along these lines, I get 24/176 for SACD.  DAD not compatible with the Sony 370.  Good luck.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 20 Dec 2010, 04:48 am
Do you mean DVD-A is not compatible with the Sony?  DAD (audio only DVD) should be compatible with any DVD player (although there may be older ones that will only put out 48kHz).  The ones (discs) I have all put out 24/96 stereo.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 20 Dec 2010, 05:30 am
Yes, DAD's are an audio-only DVD-video title (video_ts) and playable on any DVD player.  They are 24/96.  HDAD's are dual sided and have a DVD-Audio (audio_ts) side that plays 24/192, but again the DVD-V side will play on all DVD players.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 20 Dec 2010, 12:14 pm
Yes, DVD-A, not DAD.  My mistake.  Typing while distracted.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 20 Dec 2010, 01:48 pm
I need some help from you folks who have gotten 24/192 out of the Sony S370 on Blu-Ray material.  From my post above, I've been able to configure my setup to deliver 24/176 from SACD's.  Didn't try a Blu-Ray until late last night and I can't anything over 16/48 off of a Blu-Ray (SACD still putting out 24/176).  For those of you with the S370 (or 470,570, etc.), would you mind sharing your audio settings for the Sony with me.  I'm sure it's something simple that I'm just too dense to see, but I would very much appreciate the help.  BTW, if there's another setting besides the audio settings that needs to be made, like my Momoprice setting described above, I'd be grateful for that info as well.  Thanks very much.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 20 Dec 2010, 03:00 pm
Jaywills,
I have neother the Sony nor the Monoprice, but wanted to say that once you get the blu-Ray HDMi setting correct you'll find there are not a lot of 24/192 2 channel offerings on Blu Ray yet.  Neil Young's stuff, some things from 2L and a few others, but it's not predominant.  I haven't checked downmixed hirez standard movie content, though, cuz that stuff I listen to in multichannel with standard HDMI-to-processor.

Let us know when it works.  By the way, it's strange that setting the HDMI-to-coax for 2 channel only produces 44k in SACD.  I can;t even imagine how that is happening.  Even worst case multichannel downmixing (ugh!) would not produce 44k.  Anybody with a Monoprice (I'm now gonna go buy one as the instigator here) please chime in.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 20 Dec 2010, 03:32 pm
Thanks, Ted, I didn't know that about the paucity of 24/192 Blu-Rays.  The Monoprice thing I discovered purely by accident.  It comes with a remote that has two buttons, one for 5.1 and the other for 2 channel.  When I had the Monoprice set to 2 channel, all I could get out of SACD's was 44.1, regardless of the Sony's settings.  When I changed the Monoprice via the remote (there's no button for that on the unit itself, IIRC), I was rewarded with 24/176 for SACD playback (and the sound difference between the two is immediately noticeable).  I'll post when I resolve my issue.

If anyone else reading this thread has an answer about the Sony's settings to the question I posted earlier, I'd appreciate reading your input.  Thanks.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: golfugh on 20 Dec 2010, 03:47 pm
Sounds like 2-channel out of the Sony is reading the CD layer through the Monoprice.  Setting in the Sony (bitstream vice PCM)??
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 20 Dec 2010, 03:52 pm
Thanks, Ted, I didn't know that about the paucity of 24/192 Blu-Rays.  The Monoprice thing I discovered purely by accident.  It comes with a remote that has two buttons, one for 5.1 and the other for 2 channel.  When I had the Monoprice set to 2 channel, all I could get out of SACD's was 44.1, regardless of the Sony's settings.  When I changed the Monoprice via the remote (there's no button for that on the unit itself, IIRC), I was rewarded with 24/176 for SACD playback (and the sound difference between the two is immediately noticeable).  I'll post when I resolve my issue.

If anyone else reading this thread has an answer about the Sony's settings to the question I posted earlier, I'd appreciate reading your input.  Thanks.  Cordially,

Yes - leaving the Monoprice on 5.1 is better.  I believe I posted that earlier.  I don't know what it does - perhaps just passes it through
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 20 Dec 2010, 04:01 pm
So, leaving the Monoprice in 5.1 is the recommended setting!  Thanks Phil A (again).

So.....just a friendly reminder to make sure your SACD setting (for this threads purpose, i.e 2 channel to your DAC) to default to 2 channel SACD, and make sure you choose the 2 channel layer/title for your BluRay and DVD-Audio stuff.  If not you could end up hearing either downmixed multichannel (ugh!) or worst case only the front l/r of a 5.1 mix (ugh ugh).  Obviously for all else, like HDMI pass through for movies, etc....choose the mutlichannel layer/title.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 20 Dec 2010, 04:26 pm
I briefly tried HDMI pass through for movies with Blu-Ray with the Port-ta box and got no sound (passing it from the coax out to my pre/pro coax input).  I have not tried anything else except 2-channel SACD which is where I have set the default on my Modwright Oppo BDP-83.  I have the BDP-93 on the other side of the wall in the bedroom system and have the 2nd output of my Marantz SR6003 going to an HDMI cable to the main system so at some point I'll see how that goes.  I did not have tons of time doing stuff with the BDP-93 (way behind on so much) but did look at the picture on my 100 inch main screen and did listen to 2 channel SACD via analog.  I'm hoping to be able to pass through the signal to the Port-ta box for audio the way I have things connected now so that when I do have a pre/pro with HDMI I'll be able to try lots of things.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: PaulFolbrecht on 3 Jan 2011, 06:34 pm
I have a Sony 5400 presently at Modwright for the full upgrade.

I also have a Mac Mini/Minimax DAC system.

I saw this thread and ordered a Atlona HD570 immediately.

SACD on the Modwright vs. the Minimax via the Atlona box should be interesting.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 3 Jan 2011, 06:47 pm
I have a Sony 5400 presently at Modwright for the full upgrade.

I also have a Mac Mini/Minimax DAC system.

I saw this thread and ordered a Atlona HD570 immediately.

SACD on the Modwright vs. the Minimax via the Atlona box should be interesting.

Paul,
The 5400 is not a candidate for this. The 5400 does not do DSD-to-hirez PCM conversion.  The HDMi outputs are for DSD (stereo, multichannel) only, unless it's a cd.  If the EDID handshake were to work and force PCM (some reports it does) then reports are that it downrez's all the way to 44k. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: PaulFolbrecht on 3 Jan 2011, 07:54 pm
Paul,
The 5400 is not a candidate for this. The 5400 does not do DSD-to-hirez PCM conversion.  The HDMi outputs are for DSD (stereo, multichannel) only, unless it's a cd.  If the EDID handshake were to work and force PCM (some reports it does) then reports are that it downrez's all the way to 44k.

I was thinking, as I was about hit "Place Order", perhaps I should read the whole thread. :)

It turns out I do have an Oppo 83 (non-SE) as well.  It is the family DVD spinner and nothing more.  So, I can still do the "experiment".
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 3 Jan 2011, 08:18 pm
I was thinking, as I was about hit "Place Order", perhaps I should read the whole thread. :)

It turns out I do have an Oppo 83 (non-SE) as well.  It is the family DVD spinner and nothing more.  So, I can still do the "experiment".

Yes!  Oh, and the 5400 is still a slight possibility (after reading a few other forums) but it's a crapshoot...there is no actual setting for DSD vs PCM.  It's almost as if you are reliant on what the HDMI backend forces.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 22 Jan 2011, 10:09 pm
Thanks for answering these questions from a board newbie.     :D

I'm getting ready to setup using an (unopened) Oppo BDP-83SE and an Atlona 577.  My questions are:

(1)  Is anyone using a Logitech Transporter as their DAC in this scenario and if so, what bit rates are you connecting at?
(2)  Has anyone used a Sony BDP-S770 as the SACD transport in this scenario?  What bit rates would the Atlona be able to de-embed from SACD?

The reason I ask is that just about everything I own and care about on DVD-Audio I've already ripped an archive copy of and can play through another method.  If I could get 24/176 from my SACD collection (which would be my goal) through the Sony S770's HDMI, I would have no real reason to open the Oppo box...and would probably just sell it outright.

Thanks again.  Great board and thread here.


Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 23 Jan 2011, 03:01 am
Thanks for answering these questions from a board newbie.     :D

I'm getting ready to setup using an (unopened) Oppo BDP-83SE and an Atlona 577.  My questions are:

(1)  Is anyone using a Logitech Transporter as their DAC in this scenario and if so, what bit rates are you connecting at?
(2)  Has anyone used a Sony BDP-S770 as the SACD transport in this scenario?  What bit rates would the Atlona be able to de-embed from SACD?

The reason I ask is that just about everything I own and care about on DVD-Audio I've already ripped an archive copy of and can play through another method.  If I could get 24/176 from my SACD collection (which would be my goal) through the Sony S770's HDMI, I would have no real reason to open the Oppo box...and would probably just sell it outright.

Thanks again.  Great board and thread here.

Welcome to AC and the HiRez Circle.   Sorry I didn't see your post until now; somehow my Moderator status (or even a contributor on this thread) did not kick out an email notification??

Anyway:
1) The Transporter will only do up to 24/96 via it's digital inputs (or streaming for that matter)
2)  yes, the Sony 770 (as well as the 370 and 570) all do 24/176k assuming you set the SACD as PCM and not DSD (set up menu).  The only thing the Oppo will do for you is multichannel DVD-Audio (since you've ripped, like me, all your good 2 channel DVD-Audio).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 24 Jan 2011, 05:43 pm
Anyway:
1) The Transporter will only do up to 24/96 via it's digital inputs (or streaming for that matter)
2)  yes, the Sony 7750 (as well as the 370 and 570) all do 24/176k assuming you set the SACD as PCM and not DSD (set up menu).  The only thing the Oppo will do for you is multichannel DVD-Audio (since you've ripped, like me, all your good 2 channel DVD-Audio).

Thanks...assuming you mean the S770 I think that's the way I'm going then...I had already decided to go buy a W4S DAC-2 a while back so this just sealed the decision making process for me.

As far as ripping my 2-channel DVD-A, yeah I've ripped everything that's worth ripping (IMHO).  There's an awful lot out there that's really not worth it (and not just from a musical taste viewpoint).  Stuff out there purporting to be hi-res that's nothing more than redbook engineered onto a DVD-A disc and called "24/96 hi-resolution."  Sometimes it's not even semi-decent redbook quality.  The same can be said for some of the early SACD releases too.

On the other hand, a few of the 24/48 DVD-A I decided to give a spin turned out much better than I expected them to (the LOTR soundtrack, for example).  Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Jan 2011, 07:06 pm
Oops, yes edited it to mean "Sony 770".  Let us know how it works out, please.  Thx
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Jan 2011, 02:15 am
Phil A, etc....I need some feedback.

I have someone over on the CA forum that is saying that Monoprice is telling him that if the backend handshake is done by a display device or some HDMI backend that itself is not capable of 24/192k then the HDMi de-embedder will only show 48k.  ?  is this true?  Does anyone here that is using a de-embedder have it handshake with a device that is not itself capable of 24/192 audio (i.e not a hirez receiver, etc)?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Jan 2011, 03:03 am
Nevermind, directly plugged in my Sammy DLp pj (i.e bypassed reciever) and all is well.  Oppo sending 24/88 SACD as normal.  Monoprice is sending bad info, or their box does not do what mine does..??  And mine has no EDID capture capability, just simple handshake.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: metronet on 29 Jan 2011, 08:07 am

yes, the Sony 770 (as well as the 370 and 570) all do 24/176k assuming you set the SACD as PCM and not DSD (set up menu).

I still don't get how 176khz is achieved... perhaps you could help me understand:

1) With the monoprice HDMI switch in 5.1 the 24bit/176khz output is in 2 channel stereo?
2) Does that mean it is reading the 5.1 track from the disc and down-mixing to 2 channel?
3) Are you alluding to that this is a bug of the monoprice switch that it can output highRes content via the digital output while others are normally disabled or mute?  :D

Thanks,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 29 Jan 2011, 02:19 pm
Ted - missed the question.  Been breaking in a new preamp (Modwright 36.5DM) over the last few days.  Yes they (Monoprice) are given bad info.  I can tell the device works as well when I tried sending DSD or PCM from the BDP-83 to the Integra DTC 9.8 pre/pro.  When I've forgotten to remove the switch it will lock and on off the signal as the audio is being stripped to the coax output and it will only let the video through.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 29 Jan 2011, 02:27 pm
I still don't get how 176khz is achieved... perhaps you could help me understand:

1) With the monoprice HDMI switch in 5.1 the 24bit/176khz output is in 2 channel stereo?
2) Does that mean it is reading the 5.1 track from the disc and down-mixing to 2 channel?
3) Are you alluding to that this is a bug of the monoprice switch that it can output highRes content via the digital output while others are normally disabled or mute?  :D

Thanks,

1) I don't have 24/176.4 (just 88.2) with the Oppo but I set the player to output stereo SACD converted to PCM and I've found 5.1 seems to sound better.  They both (2 channel or 5.1 channel) will pass the 2-channel hi-rez but the 5.1 seems to sound better to me.

2) I have not tried mulit-channel SACD.  Am taking it to a 2 channel DAC so for me there is not a point.  The purpose of using such a device is to use the good 2-channel output stage in your DAC.

3) For hi-rez SACD and DVD-A (except that the Oppo does it on DVD-A) due to copy protection output for hi-rez digitally for SACD was with HDMI (a one way digital connection) and not until HDMI version 1.2 and later.  This allows one to pass hi-rez via a normal digital output.

PS - welcome to the forum
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: metronet on 29 Jan 2011, 06:39 pm

3) For hi-rez SACD and DVD-A (except that the Oppo does it on DVD-A) due to copy protection output for hi-rez digitally for SACD was with HDMI (a one way digital connection) and not until HDMI version 1.2 and later.  This allows one to pass hi-rez via a normal digital output.

PS - welcome to the forum

Phil A, thank you for the informative reply. It's much appreciated.

If I understand it correct, the monorprice HDMI switch basically just outputs hi-rez via SPDIF. I guess what I am trying to confirm is the maximun resolution of it - is it 88.2 or 176? This could very much be the perfect solution for me to finally enjoy my SACD collections in it's hi-rez format closes to it's original.

Thanks,

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 29 Jan 2011, 07:20 pm
Phil A, thank you for the informative reply. It's much appreciated.

If I understand it correct, the monorprice HDMI switch basically just outputs hi-rez via SPDIF. I guess what I am trying to confirm is the maximun resolution of it - is it 88.2 or 176? This could very much be the perfect solution for me to finally enjoy my SACD collections in it's hi-rez format closes to it's original.

Thanks,

I know the thread is long but I posted way back that it has passed 192kHz from DVD-A
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 29 Jan 2011, 08:21 pm
Phil A, thank you for the informative reply. It's much appreciated.

If I understand it correct, the monorprice HDMI switch basically just outputs hi-rez via SPDIF. I guess what I am trying to confirm is the maximun resolution of it - is it 88.2 or 176? This could very much be the perfect solution for me to finally enjoy my SACD collections in it's hi-rez format closes to it's original.

Thanks,

Metronet, my initial review post (I'm the OP) stated clearly (I hope) that these de-embedders are for PCM'd SACD (24/88 or 24/176 depending on your player), DVD-A (up to 24/192, although you really don't need this box for that, cuz in most cases a player's own coax may suffice) and BluRay (up to 24/192).  They are stereo only (meaning no digital multichannel output except of course HDMI) and they don't downmix or do any processsing other than de-embed.   
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: metronet on 29 Jan 2011, 10:46 pm
Metronet, my initial review post (I'm the OP) stated clearly (I hope) that these de-embedders are for PCM'd SACD (24/88 or 24/176 depending on your player), DVD-A (up to 24/192, although you really don't need this box for that, cuz in most cases a player's own coax may suffice) and BluRay (up to 24/192).  They are stereo only (meaning no digital multichannel output except of course HDMI) and they don't downmix or do any processsing other than de-embed.

Your explanation is very much appreciated. That was exactly what I needed to know. I have a questions: Since the bitstream output is embedded in the HDMI.

Does that mean technically if I use a HDMI sound card (like the Asus Xonar HDAV1.3) I should be able to capture the digital 24/176 PCM and digitally store them for playback in other transports?

Thanks,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 31 Jan 2011, 08:12 am
Fired up my recently acquired Atlona hd577 for first time.  Mixed experience.  On DVD-A from Cambridge Audio 650bd (same mediatek chip as Oppo) went to 24/192 via hdmi & spdif co-ax, but I definitely prefer dvd-a with ca 650 as transport & spdif direct into cyrus dacx.  Tighter, more extended into bottom end, at least. We'll see if bedding in changes this over time.

Some issues - 1. then played a blue ray disc & screen had deep green all over it.  Went through all menus & couldn't see anything amiss 2. changed the hdmi cable over & then couldn't get hdmi audio out of 48khz, despite shutting down & re-setting edid.  3. then went to hdmi input 2 & reset everything again: eureka! 24/192 etc back, plus a real non-green hd image on blu-ray.

So what was that all about?  I sense instability here!  I haven't gone back to input 1 yet.  But, sacd is next - I need to get one, or more ...
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 6 Feb 2011, 02:18 am
First post here. I am hoping to get a little help with this setup. Everything is working as expected except for SACDs. I have tried every SACD I own--all three of them. The 176 light on the Moon DAC comes on but there is no sound. Like I said, everything else works--Blu-Ray discs in the Sony player, 192 kHz downloads playing on the netbook--all good. Any ideas? I have futzed with the settings on the Blu-Ray player and think I have covered all of the bases there. Thanks all :)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=42414)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 6 Feb 2011, 08:19 pm
Hi.  Sorry for all your troubles (btw, that Paul on AVS is something!  Seems he doesn't know what I'm writing about so he badmouths it.  Too bad for him.  The Oppo SE is exactly what should be compared becuase we're trying to see if the de-embedder solution via one's own DAC is a BETTER sound that using a well-reviewed analog output like the dedicated Oppo 83 SE.)

Try this:
make sure the Sony BluRay player's SACD is set for PCM, NOT DSD.  And the 176 sample rate will not like your 96k DAC.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 6 Feb 2011, 08:43 pm
I noted earlier, while the Monoprice box will pass 192kHz from DVD-A, I had the Sony BDP-BX37 outputting 176.4kHz (from SACD) and the DAC lit up but I got no sound (and I confirmed my settings with another member too) so I just have the Oppo back outputting 88.2kHz and being upsampled to 176.4kHz with the DAC in the main system.  I put the Sony on the computer system doing DSD direct to a Pioneer 1120 and am happy.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 6 Feb 2011, 09:06 pm
Try this:
make sure the Sony BluRay player's SACD is set for PCM, NOT DSD.  And the 176 sample rate will not like your 96k DAC.
Thank you for the reply Ted. I have the BDP set to output PCM, and I am auditioning a Moon 100D DAC this weekend--it can do sampling frequencies up to and including 192 kHz. I think there are revelations in Phil's post from today. I wonder if the SACD / 176 / lights on but no sound issue occurs with the Atlona box the way it appears to occur with the Monoprice unit.

Thanks again,

Ross
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 7 Feb 2011, 03:57 pm
Oops--I didn't really phrase that as a question...

The Monoprice de-embedder is known to have an SACD / 176 / lights on but no sound issue. Does the same issue occur with the Atlona AT-HD577?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 8 Feb 2011, 06:39 pm
Anyone? I will be ordering a 577 if it's confirmed to work. I have reread this thread and others on the CA site and I'm still unsure. Thank you :)
The Monoprice de-embedder is known to have an SACD / 176 / lights on but no sound issue. Does the same issue occur with the Atlona AT-HD577?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 8 Feb 2011, 06:54 pm
Ross, Dunno.  I have the original 570 box and an Oppo.  Phil or others might be able to chime in.  Dunno why it wouldn't, but then again wondering what is the issue with the Monoprice since Phil and others said it was identical to their full-functioning Porta.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mgalusha on 8 Feb 2011, 07:13 pm
I have the 577 and it seems to work fine with my BD-83 but that is only 88.2. One thing in the diagram posted is the optical from the de-embedder to the DAC. Most Toslink interfaces will not support above 96Khz, so even if you can get 176.4 from the Atlona or Monoprice it's likely it won't be passed.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 8 Feb 2011, 07:33 pm
Thanks--I don't recall trying coax from Monoprice to DAC. I will try that tonight and will report.

It would be great if I could get the Monoprice working correctly. The Atlona 577 looks like a cool gizmo and all but it would cost me over CDN $300.00. That would buy a lot of music!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 8 Feb 2011, 08:34 pm
My Atlona 570 is toslink only and does 24/192 from BluRay (Oppo) beautifully.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 8 Feb 2011, 09:39 pm
I have been able to get full 192kHz from either the Port-ta/Monoprice boxes from DVD-A from the Oppo BDP-83.  From SACD I of course get 88.2.  When I tried the Sony Blu-Ray player the DAC showed I was getting 176kHz from SACD but I got no sound.  As noted, I confirmed my settings with another member and the DAC showed it was receiving the signal but I got no sound.  I finally moved the Sony BDP-BX37 to the office system and pass DSD to a Pioneer 1120.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Russtafarian on 8 Feb 2011, 09:47 pm
I've been following this thread because I eventually want to set up a digital connection for SACD playback. 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but given the ultrasonic noise issue with SACDs, do you really want them resampled to 176khz?  SACD players have low pass filters to keep the DSD noise above 40khz from trickling into the audible range.  Since there's only noise and no music in that range (from DSD files), wouldn't 88khz be a better choice for resampling SACDs to PCM?

Russ
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 8 Feb 2011, 11:43 pm
I've been following this thread because I eventually want to set up a digital connection for SACD playback. 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but given the ultrasonic noise issue with SACDs, do you really want them resampled to 176khz?  SACD players have low pass filters to keep the DSD noise above 40khz from trickling into the audible range.  Since there's only noise and no music in that range (from DSD files), wouldn't 88khz be a better choice for resampling SACDs to PCM?

Russ

I've seen that elsewhere.  My DAC upsamples the 88.2 to 176.4kHz.  I just would have liked to hear it for myself.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 8 Feb 2011, 11:44 pm
Eureka! I ran Monoprice to DAC with coax instead of optical and we're locked and loaded on 176.4. I tried a couple of TOSlink cables including one from the UHF Magazine's store.

http://uhfmag.com/Digital.html (http://uhfmag.com/Digital.html)

No love with optical, but rock-solid with coaxial. Happy camper now am I.

Thanks for the good info and for this great site!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: golfugh on 9 Feb 2011, 12:01 am
Quite a few toslink inputs are limited to 24/96.. Wyred DAC being one.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: newzooreview on 9 Feb 2011, 03:32 am
My FiOS box (Motorola) outputs 5.1 high resolution audio over HDMI (for almost all of my HD channels).

Will any of the devices discussed here (Altona or Monoprice, primarily) allow me to strip that 5.1 digital audio and output it via digital coax to my two-channel DAC?

I would love to get my FiOS TV sound onto my main stereo vs. my crappy Bose 321 system.

Sorry if this has been addressed, but I couldn't see the answer. Most everything seemed to focus on inputs to the Altona/Monoprice that are already two channel.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 9 Feb 2011, 03:40 am
I did try plain old Dolby Digital and could not get 5.1 into the preamp/processor with the Port-ta/Monoprice box from the coax output.  Is there a way in the set-up for the FIOS box to output 2-channel PCM?  That has been verified with SACD and DVD-A.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: JDUBS on 12 Feb 2011, 09:25 pm
Finally...REAL SACD ripping exists!

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-Linux-yes

I've got one of the earlier PS3s packed up somewhere.  Need to drop linux on it and give this a shot with an SACD or two.

Now, I need to convince Rob at Pure Vinyl to incorporate .DFF playback.

-Jim
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 12 Feb 2011, 09:33 pm
Finally...REAL SACD ripping exists!

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-Linux-yes

I've got one of the earlier PS3s packed up somewhere.  Need to drop linux on it and give this a shot with an SACD or two.

Now, I need to convince Rob at Pure Vinyl to incorporate .DFF playback.

-Jim

Let us know how it goes (prolly a new thread really).  I don't know Linux but from what MR Wicked has posted it seems it's not quite a full solution yet, right?  Would be cool to get DFF files and even convert them to 24/384 (for playback on M2tech Young DAC, etc).  If you get a few send me a PM and I'll give you my dropbox info so we can test a couple files (I have the 24/384-capable M2Tech young DAC here for now, and a converter to move DSD to very hirez PCM).  ;)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 13 Feb 2011, 11:43 pm
Ted - Waiting on my W4S DAC before I give my Atlona 577 the final test.

Just a quick question though...when you're using your Atlona 570, how is it stationed or mounted in your system?  Is it mounted into a rack mount or is it placed on a shelf?  If the latter, do you think one would need to be concerned with vibration control?  :D

I know a DAC has no moving parts per se...just curious what you think.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 13 Feb 2011, 11:54 pm
My Atlona is hanging by a thread.  Not a good situation.  It sits behind my Macbook (music server) on a shelf but is precariously close to the edge cuz the damn HDMI cables (I hate HDMI cable connections) are too stiff and lift the box up (was worse with one of them being huge Nordost one; i now use the nice DH labs swivel cables but it's still a PITA).  I guess in my case I don't worry about vibration cuz the thing hangs in space.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 14 Feb 2011, 12:31 am
Thanks for the quick response.   Once I get it running properly, I was thinking about getting a 1-2" thick cutting board, painting it black (no Stones pun intended) and screwing the Atlona down onto it.  Wouldn't consider doing it of course until I'm sure I've got everything wired and settled.

Again, I don't think vibration would affect the Atlona...but I guess I'm old-fashioned about things like this.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 18 Feb 2011, 12:35 am
Welcome to AC and the HiRez Circle.   Sorry I didn't see your post until now; somehow my Moderator status (or even a contributor on this thread) did not kick out an email notification??

Anyway:
1) The Transporter will only do up to 24/96 via it's digital inputs (or streaming for that matter)
2)  yes, the Sony 770 (as well as the 370 and 570) all do 24/176k assuming you set the SACD as PCM and not DSD (set up menu).  The only thing the Oppo will do for you is multichannel DVD-Audio (since you've ripped, like me, all your good 2 channel DVD-Audio).

Ted - Having a bit of a problem.  I have the Atlona 577 and the Sony 770 hooked up now.  The Atlona was hooked up to an HDMI monitor and received a video signal from the Sony just fine so I'm guessing a handshake has been achieved since there's a 176.4 indication on the DAC-2.  I have made all the changes on the Sony I can see to change: output PCM over HDMI,  choosing SACD layer (not CD layer of hybrid), SACD 2-Channel (not multichannel), everything I can see to change in the setup menu (no changes made to DD or DTS settings).  When I play a redbook CD on the Sony through the Atlona I get sound just fine (at 44.1 of course) so it's not an interconnect issue.

No matter how I change the settings, when I try to playback the SACD layer on the Sony I get a 176.4 throughput display on my DAC but no sound.  And here's where I'm thinking the problem lies - no matter how I change the setups (including re-boot and disc re-insertion) the video output of the Sony shows it playing back a 2 channel DSD.  Maybe I'm missing something here (or perhaps the Sony firmware been changed to prevent the PCM output over the HDMI connection?).

Any ideas anyone here could offer would be appreciated.  Thanks.

P. S. I do have an unopened Oppo BDP-83SE I can try out, but I'd rather use the Sony if possible.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 18 Feb 2011, 02:04 am
I'm not an expert in the 770, but some have found toslink to be a problem over 96k.  Is your connection toslink or coax?  If the DAC is showing 176.4k then I can't imagine the player is sending DSD.....the 176.4k is from the player's bitstream info.  Can you try a DVD-V wtih 24/96PCm or something that has 96k and see if anything over 44k will play?   I'm still suspicious of the digital cable. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 18 Feb 2011, 02:11 am
I'll try a DVD-V tomorrow.  The cable is a Grover Huffman coax digital cable.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Feb 2011, 02:16 am
I'm not an expert in the 770, but some have found toslink to be a problem over 96k.  Is your connection toslink or coax?  If the DAC is showing 176.4k then I can't imagine the player is sending DSD.....the 176.4k is from the player's bitstream info.  Can you try a DVD-V wtih 24/96PCm or something that has 96k and see if anything over 44k will play?   I'm still suspicious of the digital cable.

Ted, I had the same problem with the Sony BDP-BX37 (same as the 370) as I reported a bit earlier with the Monoprice/Port-ta box via coax.  I got the DAC to read 176.4kHz and show it is is locked on and it got no sound.  When I switched the HDMI cable to the Oppo BDP-83 it immediately registered 88.2kHz and sound came out.  I know the Monoprice/Port-ta box was able to pass 192kHz from a DVD-A and I got sound.  I confirmed the settings for my Sony BDP-BX37 with another member here earlier in the thread.  So I don't know what the issue is.  I only tried a few SACDs and all had the same issue.  So I just moved the BDP-BX37 to the office system where I can do DSD direct to a Pioneer 1120.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 18 Feb 2011, 02:19 am
And here's where I'm thinking the problem lies - no matter how I change the setups (including re-boot and disc re-insertion) the video output of the Sony shows it playing back a 2 channel DSD.
I'm one of the people Ted mentions who had trouble with TOSlink over 96 kHz. I switched to a coax connection from de-embedder (MonoPrice in my case) to DAC and now have 176.4 glory from my SACDs, which are played on a Sony BDP-S370. The player shows 2 channel DSD just like yours, and it works. Spotlessly.

Hope this helps,

Ross

EDIT: Oops--I see you are already using a coaxial cable  :oops:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Feb 2011, 02:32 am
Ross - just curious and perhaps anyone who has a Sony can chime in - what firmware are you running and how do you check the firmware version?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Feb 2011, 03:28 am
Also, at some point, when I can get to it (perhaps a few weeks - too many new audio things lately and it's already holding up a new computer I want to get to digitize audio files), I'll try the Sony with the Emotiva XDA-1 in the basement system.  I picked up the XDA-1 from Fedex last night and just hooked it up literally 5 minutes ago.  I hooked it up to an old Oppo DV-980H along with the Monoprice HDMI audio de-embedder.  I don't see a read-out of the resolution on the Emotiva or a manner in which to display it (have not read anything yet) but it sounds really good so far and I am impressed for $299.  I don't have anything super audiophile in the basement system - an Onkyo 1000 and an old pair of B&W P6 mains.

Obviously some have reported getting 176.4kHz from the Sony Blu-Ray players and others, myself included, have been able to see a DAC registering 176.4kHz but got no sound.  I use a Bryston DAC in the main system and it shows the frequency being locked in but I get no sound.  Also, I have the Port-ta/Monoprice De-embedder but others are reporting the same problem of no sound from the Atlona De-embedder.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 18 Feb 2011, 04:51 am
Obviously some have reported getting 176.4kHz from the Sony Blu-Ray players and others, myself included, have been able to see a DAC registering 176.4kHz but got no sound.  I use a Bryston DAC in the main system and it shows the frequency being locked in but I get no sound.  Also, I have the Port-ta/Monoprice De-embedder but others are reporting the same problem of no sound from the Atlona De-embedder.

Phil - When you were trying out the Sony and it was playing back/registering 176.4, do you recall if the Sony display (not your settings, the display) was indicating you were playing back a 2-channel DSD file?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Feb 2011, 05:10 am
Phil - When you were trying out the Sony and it was playing back/registering 176.4, do you recall if the Sony display (not your settings, the display) was indicating you were playing back a 2-channel DSD file?  Thanks.

No - but I can't imagine it wouldn't say that as the set-up menu has always been set to DSD 2-channel.  I don't hate multi-channel but probably around 90% of the time I prefer 2-channel SACD vs. multi-channel and all my players are always set that way.  It is easier to listen to what I prefer that way
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 18 Feb 2011, 05:54 am
I'm not an expert in the 770, but some have found toslink to be a problem over 96k.  Is your connection toslink or coax?  If the DAC is showing 176.4k then I can't imagine the player is sending DSD.....the 176.4k is from the player's bitstream info.  Can you try a DVD-V wtih 24/96PCm or something that has 96k and see if anything over 44k will play?   I'm still suspicious of the digital cable.

No - but I can't imagine it wouldn't say that as the set-up menu has always been set to DSD 2-channel.  I don't hate multi-channel but probably around 90% of the time I prefer 2-channel SACD vs. multi-channel and all my players are always set that way.  It is easier to listen to what I prefer that way

I couldn't sleep for all the thinking this through.  Not the King's English, but it fits tonight. :)

Ted - I ran a few tracks of my DVD-V of Elton John's 2000 Ephesus concert through the Sony.  The DAC-2 shows it's receiving a 48k bitstream when playing this back.  No hiccups, no issues with it.  (As an aside, it sounds better through the DAC-2 than I can ever remember hearing it before, even in 2-channel.)  Can you suggest a DVD-V that should playback 24/96?  I'm not sure if I own any.

Phil - Thanks...that's what's happening to me.  I'm showing 2-channel DSD all the time, even with all the settings set to PCM.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Feb 2011, 11:30 am
I couldn't sleep for all the thinking this through.  Not the King's English, but it fits tonight. :)

Ted - I ran a few tracks of my DVD-V of Elton John's 2000 Ephesus concert through the Sony.  The DAC-2 shows it's receiving a 48k bitstream when playing this back.  No hiccups, no issues with it.  (As an aside, it sounds better through the DAC-2 than I can ever remember hearing it before, even in 2-channel.)  Can you suggest a DVD-V that should playback 24/96?  I'm not sure if I own any.

Phil - Thanks...that's what's happening to me.  I'm showing 2-channel DSD all the time, even with all the settings set to PCM.

Neil Young's Greatest Hits is a 24/96 DVD for one.  I have a bunch of Classic Records 24/96 DVDs too and a couple from Chesky Records.

I think the DSD 2-channel (could be wrong as I have not played much with my player) is just to show you selected the 2-channel mix of the SACD.  There is a separate setting for the player to output DSD or PCM from SACD.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 18 Feb 2011, 11:49 am
Ross - just curious and perhaps anyone who has a Sony can chime in - what firmware are you running and how do you check the firmware version?
Hi Phil,

The 370 is at M03.R.695

HOME > Setup > System Settings > System Information

I wonder if Sony could kill our fun with a firmware update?

Cheers,

Ross

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Feb 2011, 01:34 pm
Ross - thanks.  I'll check when I'm home and have a chance.  I'm just searching/grasping for straws as to why some have the problem with a DAC showing it is getting 176.4kHz and having no sound with different audio de-embedders and someone else getting it.  What DAC are you using?

I picked up my Sony Blu-Ray/SACD at Costco with a coupon probably just over 2 monts ago.  I set the player up as I thought it should be (sitting basically right near my modded Oppo BDP-83 so I could easily swap the HDMI cables into the audio de-embedder) and got the 176.4kHz lock indicated on the DAC and then just switched the HDMI cable and where I got no sound out of the Sony, I immediately got sound from the Oppo and the DAC indicated 88.2kHz.  I drove myself crazy for about a week and changed all the setting to almost every other combination possible with no results.  I then confirmed my setting with someone here (probably several pages back) and again got the 176.4kHz lock indicated on the DAC but no sound. 


Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: old_bassist on 18 Feb 2011, 01:49 pm
What DAC are you using?
I'm using a http://simaudio.com/moon100D.htm (http://simaudio.com/moon100D.htm). Liking it more and more every day.

Cheers,

Ross
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 18 Feb 2011, 02:18 pm
Another variable in all this is the backend HDMI.  In the case of the 577 it doesn't need one or care (once correct EDID is set up and stored).

Other DVD-V's with 24/96 are Neil's Live At Massey Hall (not the bluray), Sugar Mountain, etc....and as Phil said, HDAD or DAD's from Classic like Muddy Waters Folk Singer, Cannonball Adderley's Somethin Else, etc.    Oh, and BluRay's should show up 24/192 like the ones from 2L.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 18 Feb 2011, 03:35 pm
...The 370 is at M03.R.695

HOME > Setup > System Settings > System Information

I wonder if Sony could kill our fun with a firmware update?

Cheers,

Ross

Ross - That's my contention I guess.  The other possibility (though unlikely since I'm not the only one having this issue) is that my coax isn't up to snuff.  The only way to know that is to try out one of the 24/96 DVD-V discs everyone has suggested.  I'll probably try to grab one soon.  In the meantime, I'll probably break out the Oppo BDP-83SE soon and see if I can connect at 24/88.2 with a 2-channel SACD. 

Phil/Ted - Would it mean anything if in theory if I am able to connect (and get sound) at 24/88.2 with a 2-channel SACD and 24/192 with a 2-channel DVD-A with my (currently unopened) Oppo?  Wouldn't that say that the problem is NOT my coax?  Just curious...

Thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 18 Feb 2011, 03:38 pm
yeah, if you can connect 24/88 Oppo SACD (PCM) and/or 24/192 BlURay from either player then coax is fine.  I gotta assume it is (I was more concerned it was toslink before you confirmed coax).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 18 Feb 2011, 07:49 pm
This question probably shows that I don’t have complete understanding of Hirez so apologies in advance.  I listen to digital through a Modwright Transporter streaming my CD collection from an iMac.  The CD layer of my SACDs has been ripped to the iMac and that’s the way I listen to them.  In the same room as the Transporter there will be next week an OPPO BD-93 used for home theater.  I understand from reading this thread that the Transporter is limited to 24/96 resolution, but would there be any advantage to using the OPPO as a transport for SACDs played through an Atlona HD577 into the Transporter as a DAC?  By streaming the ripped CD layer of my SACDs to the Transporter I’m hearing them at lower resolution of CDs (is that 16/44?)  Using the OPPO > Atlona > Transporter would I hear this music at the higher resolution of the SACD layer?  Are SACDs 24/96 or something higher?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 18 Feb 2011, 08:04 pm
This question probably shows that I don’t have complete understanding of Hirez so apologies in advance.  I listen to digital through a Modwright Transporter streaming my CD collection from an iMac.  The CD layer of my SACDs has been ripped to the iMac and that’s the way I listen to them.  In the same room as the Transporter there will be next week an OPPO BD-93 used for home theater.  I understand from reading this thread that the Transporter is limited to 24/96 resolution, but would there be any advantage to using the OPPO as a transport for SACDs played through an Atlona HD577 into the Transporter as a DAC?  By streaming the ripped CD layer of my SACDs to the Transporter I’m hearing them at lower resolution of CDs (is that 16/44?)  Using the OPPO > Atlona > Transporter would I hear this music at the higher resolution of the SACD layer?  Are SACDs 24/96 or something higher?

I am by no means the expert here...but YES it will work and YES there will be a significant upgrade to your sound, but you will be subject to the 24/96 limitation of your Transporter.  SACDs by nature are 24/176.4 (imitation of the Oppo output over HDMI for SACD is 88.2) and DVD-As (which the Oppo will play) are up to 24/192.

If I've mis-spoken here, I'm sure Ted will set the facts straight.  :=D

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 18 Feb 2011, 08:08 pm
This question probably shows that I don’t have complete understanding of Hirez so apologies in advance.  I listen to digital through a Modwright Transporter streaming my CD collection from an iMac.  The CD layer of my SACDs has been ripped to the iMac and that’s the way I listen to them.  In the same room as the Transporter there will be next week an OPPO BD-93 used for home theater.  I understand from reading this thread that the Transporter is limited to 24/96 resolution, but would there be any advantage to using the OPPO as a transport for SACDs played through an Atlona HD577 into the Transporter as a DAC?  By streaming the ripped CD layer of my SACDs to the Transporter I’m hearing them at lower resolution of CDs (is that 16/44?)  Using the OPPO > Atlona > Transporter would I hear this music at the higher resolution of the SACD layer?  Are SACDs 24/96 or something higher?

SACD's are a proprietary 1 bit DSD, (they are NOT by nature anything 24 bit)....which roughly approximates 24/176 (or 24/352) depending on who you talk to.  That's a debate for another thread.  But anyway.....SACD's are downrez'd nicely in players like the Oppo to 24/88.2k.  If you properly use the de-embedders discussed here (i.e have an HDMI back end they handshake with, etc) then yes sending that 24/88.2k to the TP's digital inputs would make perfect sense.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 18 Feb 2011, 11:28 pm
Thanks Ted.  Is the only way to get that 24/88.2 output from the OPPO via HDMI?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 19 Feb 2011, 12:00 am
Thanks Ted.  Is the only way to get that 24/88.2 output from the OPPO via HDMI?

Yes, other than already decoded via analog outs of course. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 19 Feb 2011, 12:20 am
Hooked up my Oppo BDP-83SE to the Atlona 577 and the DAC-2 about an hour ago.  Set everything up as described here.  Fired right up on the first try.  First thing I tried was the Japanese SACD of Aja by Steely Dan.  Then the Modern Cool SACD by Patricia Barber (MFSL).  I am pretty familiar with both of these discs...or so I thought.  The differences pre vs. post just about knocked me down.

Tried others out and here's what the DAC-2 displayed:
DVD-V:         48k (Elton John Live At Ephesus 2000)
Redbook CD:  41k
DVD-A:         96k (Yes Magnification), and 192k (Neil Young Harvest)

I could not tell a TON of difference between using a toslink connection and a coax connection, but then again it's just been an hour.  It will be a long night, I can already tell.   :D

My bet is that my problem with getting the Sony S770 to work is either in the firmware or my settings and is not with my digital cables.  I will try again later this weekend, but the sound I'm getting from SACDs on the Oppo is greatness right now.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 19 Feb 2011, 12:26 am
Hi Phil,

The 370 is at M03.R.695

HOME > Setup > System Settings > System Information

I wonder if Sony could kill our fun with a firmware update?

Cheers,

Ross

Mine (for the BDP-BX37) is showing M03.R.197
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 19 Feb 2011, 12:27 am
I will try again later this weekend, but the sound I'm getting from SACDs on the Oppo is greatness right now.

It's MY b-day today but this is still is a great b-day gift...knowing you finally got there.   :beer:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 19 Feb 2011, 12:39 am
Ted, Happy Birthday - mine was the 12th.

I just updated the firmware on my Sony - it now says M03.R.742.  Sometime over the weekend, I'll move the Sony back from the office system to the main system and try again.  I have a manual switch for the network port the player is connected to.  I normally leave it connected to position A for the internet radio on the Pioneer 1120.  Position 'B' is for Blu-Ray and position 'C' is for computer when I update virus protection on the laptop once a week.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 19 Feb 2011, 12:56 am
Phil, thanks!

Another piece of Sony DSD BluRay info, coming from the SA-CD.net forum (and you Sony owners probably already know this).
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Rt-Ift1frOAJ:www.sa-cd.net/showthread/54680//y%3Fpage%3Dfirst+sony+370+DSD+off&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com

So, on some Sony models the analog outs don't work if DSD is on (so that's worth checking if you think your Sony player is still sending DSD).  And there is a setting on page 23 called DSD ouput mode.  I assume everyone ahs that mode "off"?  Sorry, stupid questions I know.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 19 Feb 2011, 01:03 am
Ted - yes I had it off.  I confirmed what I had my setting on earlier in this thread with another member.  Perhaps the new firmware will resolve the issue.  The DAC was getting a signal and it was locked on.  I just got no sound from the DAC's analog outs.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 19 Feb 2011, 01:05 am
It's MY b-day today but this is still is a great b-day gift...knowing you finally got there.   :beer:

THANKS so much for all the help!  Happy Birthday!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mike_h on 20 Feb 2011, 02:18 pm
Dear All

I am considering purchasing an Altona HD570 unit for the following purpose:

I have a Sony bdp370 which I use primarily for Bluray and DVD. I have an old Denon multichanel AV receiver (model AVR3802) which has no HDMI input, but does have a set of analoge (RCA) multichannel inputs. At the moment I listen to 5.1 dolby digital or dts via optical.

In order to obtain an improvement in sound quality (ie. to hear the high-res multichanel tracks available on blurays) I propose to feed an LPCM multichannel signal from the Sony to the Atlona de-embeder and use the analogue outs from the 557 to my amp. If this works, I would also be
interested in having a dabble in the world of SACD (which I understand would also be transmittable via this set up).

The HDMI signal passing through the device is of no interest to me as I have only on video source (sony) and one video destination, a projector, which are connected directly.

I propose to use the device for one purpose - to convert LPCM HDMI audio signal to analogue.

I have no detailed understanding of the world of Hi-res audio. I would be therefore be very grateful if someone could take the time to advise:

1. Will the unit deliver the required result?
2. Will the new set up deliver a decent improvement in sound quality for the price? Perhaps I am asking, is the digital to analogue conversion taking place in the Atlona going to be a significant improvement over standard resolution via optical? Has anyone tested the quality of the analogue outs?
3. are there any other issues I should be aware of?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 20 Feb 2011, 05:24 pm
Mike, Welcome to AC!!

No, the setup you describe will NOT work because you will have no HDMI out destination (to complete the required handshake).  Second, you mentioned first the 570 (my older passive device( and then later the 577 (newer more expensive active device that captures EDID).  Which would it be?  Why do I ask?  Because the 577 would work with no HDMI backend if and only if you first connected it to a legit HDMI receiver back end and had it "learn" and store the handshake, a capability the 570 or Monoprice devices can't do.  Without this capture of the handshake these devices can't properly work in everyday mode unconnected to an HDMi backend.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mike_h on 20 Feb 2011, 07:44 pm
Hi Ted

Thanks for the quick reply. I meant to refer to the 570 model only. I had heard about the handshake issue. I noticed on Atlona's website

http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-HDMI-1.3-Audio-De-Embedder-with-3D-Support.html
 
highlighted in red is a note:

"Note: For the applications where the HD570's HDMI output will not be connected to the display, please contact Atlona Support to apply a firmware patch prior purchasing the product."

So perhaps this would address this problem for the 570? I will ask Atlona.

If this does not yield results then I would consider buying the 577 model, and using a friend's HDMI receiver once to teach the 577 the handshake. Would that do the trick?

If one of these ideas is practicable, do you have any idea of the sound quality from the analogue outs? (if these are no good then I will not be buying either product)

Many thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 20 Feb 2011, 07:49 pm
Ted - your knowledge on this topic is a great and appreciated resource, thanks again for your generous assistance.  This thread has got me thinking about further explorations of hirez, like checking out what music is available on blue-ray music disks and all the other topics in The HiRez Music Circle.  If there is enough music I'm interested in, there may be a new DAC in my system in the near future, one that is capable of 24/192.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 20 Feb 2011, 08:28 pm
Mike, I gotta assume the analog outs on the 570 are only ok, not great.  The box is all of a circuit board, so the analog outs are likely of midfi quality.  That being said, they are better than the 370's (i.e none!) and provide you the flexibility to later get a DAC and listen via better analog stages.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 21 Feb 2011, 02:58 am
Well that didn't take long - finding out what's available of interest to me in HiRez.  One look at the HD Tracks site convinces me to pursue HiRez.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 22 Feb 2011, 02:10 am
No better results for me after updating firmware.  Again I connected the Sony BDP-BX37 to the HDMI audio de-embedder in the main system.  The DAC did register 176.4kHz was being received (from the SACD disc) but again got no sound.  Just for laughs since I just got the Emotiva DAC and I dragged the player down to the basement system and hooked it up to the HDMI audio de-embedder and got no sound.  I changed inputs to the HDMI audio de-embedder via its remote and put the the SACD disc into the Oppo DV980H and got sound.  So I guess I'm condemned :lol: to pass DSD from the BDP-BX37 to the Pioneer 1120 in the office system.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: armitage on 22 Feb 2011, 05:24 am
Hi,

I bought a Atlona 577 based on what I could read on this website and some other boards.

I use it plug to my Panasonic VT2 display and fed by an Oppo BDP-93. The sound is outputted to my 24/192 capable stereo DAC.

At first, I got some issue as on multi-channel content I was getting only the L/R channels and not the stereo downmix… I could not solve it at first with the EDID learning function of the Atlona. Finally, after messing arround in the setting of my TV and unplugging/replugging the Atlona, I could memorize an EDID forcing a stereo downmix (however I could not reproduce on the second HDMI input, thus I am not sure what I did for it to work and will surely never touch the EDID on the HDMI1 input of the Atlona).

Now that everything plays fine, I am just wondering as old_bassist if I am getting 24/192 as my DAC does not display the input rate.

From what I could gather from other boards, regardless of what the display plugged to the Atlona input capability, 24/192 would be correctly sent through the Atlona to the DAC.
Is this assertion correct?

If so, I do not understand while if I raise the volume on my TV, I got the music playing properly when playing 24/192 content as I am pretty confident that my display cannot do it. Should not I get no sound or static on the TV if 24/192 is really send by my Oppo.
Can somebody clarify the situation, tell me if I am likely getting 24/192 or if I did something wrong when setting up the Atlona and the Oppo?

Thanks in advance for your advice,

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 22 Feb 2011, 04:34 pm
As always, let me preface by saying that Ted and Phil are by far the big experts here.  But my understanding from everything I've read here is that Oppo players pass SACD at 88.2.  That's what my BDP-83SE does.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 22 Feb 2011, 04:57 pm
That's correct, the chip in the Oppo is limited to 24/88.2 PCM from SACD
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 22 Feb 2011, 05:09 pm
Guys, thanks.  But his issue isn't whether the Oppo does 24/88 SACD but is he really getting 24/192 from his bluray listening?  He is concerned, given that his tv (HDMi backend) is playing actual music when turned up...that it clearly isn't 24/192 capable and that maybe he's really just de-embedding/listening to 16/48 or something.  His DAC (Emotiva) has no sample rate indicators, apparently.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 23 Feb 2011, 12:24 am
I have not tried 24/192 in the basement yet.  Been breaking in the Emotiva I got a few days ago for the secondary.  I guess I'll try a DVD-A in the Oppo DV980H later and see if sound comes out of the Emotiva XDA-1 after passing through the Monoprice HDMI audio de-embedder.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 24 Feb 2011, 04:58 am
I tried a 24/192 DVD-A in the basement system via the Oppo DV980H going through the Monoprice HDMI audio de-embedder and into the Emotiva DAC and it played and sounded good.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 24 Feb 2011, 05:06 am
Yep...I've tried all variants of the DVD-A and if the recording itself has any quality whatsoever, the sound is at its best through HDMI.   :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 24 Feb 2011, 07:13 am
Why would the 24/192 dvd-a sound superior via hdmi, as compared to spdif coax?  Less jitter? Haven't picked up a difference myself.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: armitage on 24 Feb 2011, 10:37 am
Thank you for all the responses.

teb_b summarized well my issue.
As what is reporting Phil A, 24/192 is sounding good on my Emotiva DAC. I am just not seeing why my TV is outputting some sound when plugged on the backend of the Atlona if the Atlona pass effectively 24/192 to the DAC.

Could someone be so nice as to try to raise the volume on the display linked to their de-embedder and see if some sound is coming when playing hires audio?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 24 Feb 2011, 05:08 pm
Why would the 24/192 dvd-a sound superior via hdmi, as compared to spdif coax?  Less jitter? Haven't picked up a difference myself.

Generally, I'd guess there should be more jitter via HDMI.  When I first got my Port-ta HDMI audio de-embedder (they make the Monoprice one and it is identical - see my gallery for pics side by side) from E-Bay Australia I played probably a few things on 24/192 DVD-A from both the coax out of my Oppo BDP-83 and the coax out of the de-embedder.  Both were hooked to different coax inputs of my DAC.  I didn't do extensive listening.  Perhaps pieces of 4-6 songs and could not hear a difference.  I was concerned it might degrade the sound.  Since I probably have only around 65 DVD-As, it was not the biggest concern in the world.  I told my friend about the de-embedder (he was going to buy an expensive SACD player but tried the de-embedder and scrapped those plans) and he claimed after listening that the audio out of the coax from the de-embedder sounded a bit better to him.  I'd imagine something like the BDP-83 is designed with the thought in mind that many people will use just an HDMI hook-up and they may not pay as much attention to the design around the coax output.  I do prefer my Marantz DV9600 as a transport for CDs into the DAC over the Oppo BDP-83.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Feb 2011, 05:17 pm
SPDIF is not a great connection either (although HDMi has purportedly more jitter) and to Phil's point, not sure these midpriced players have paid any special attention to the coax output quality.  All that being said, I'd still go coax from the player for DVD-Audio 2 channel..fewer connections....although few players other than the Oppos allow that....it's still supposed to be that MLP is protected from coax output.   :wink:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 24 Feb 2011, 06:25 pm
Ted - when you say you'd still go coax from the player for DVD-A 2 channel, I'm wondering how that relates to my earlier questions and your responses on Feb 18 and 19.  Based on that I was planning on buying an Atlona HD577 to go between my Oppo and Modwright Transporter used as a DAC so I could listen to the higher resolution SACD layer of my SACDs.  Currently I hear the CD layer streamed via an ethernet cable from my Mac.  I'm also planning on buying some DVD-As. Does what you said above mean I could just go straight from the coax output of the Oppo directly to the Transporter and get the same result?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Feb 2011, 06:37 pm
Ted - when you say you'd still go coax from the player for DVD-A 2 channel, I'm wondering how that relates to my earlier questions and your responses on Feb 18 and 19.  Based on that I was planning on buying an Atlona HD577 to go between my Oppo and Modwright Transporter used as a DAC so I could listen to the higher resolution SACD layer of my SACDs.  Currently I hear the CD layer streamed via an ethernet cable from my Mac.  I'm also planning on buying some DVD-As. Does what you said above mean I could just go straight from the coax output of the Oppo directly to the Transporter and get the same result?

The only hirez available from the Oppo player's native coax output is DVD, both DVD-V (max 24/96) and DVD-A (max 24/192, normally protected from going coax but Oppo and others somehow get around it).  Redbook/cd of course is also available from coax, but BluRay and SACD are not!  The only way to get hirez from BluRay and SACD is either via the player's average quality analog outs (where the player does the DAC work) or via HDMi, de-embedded by one of these boxes, and then into your quality DAC (or directly via HDMi into an HDMi-based AV processor/receiver, also usually an average-at-best analog stage).  So....no, you can't send SACD out coax and expect anything but the SACD's 16/44.1 redbook layer (if it has one, often does).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 24 Feb 2011, 07:23 pm
I see, thanks for that very clear explanation that even an old analog novice to digital audio and HiRez in particular can understand.  Since stumbling into this last week I’m excited about HiRez.  I’ve been reading a lot in your circle but still have questions.  Not sure if this circle is the place to ask, but here’s one.

I want to start downloading from HDTracks and other sources.  So far all the titles I’ve looked at are available in FLAC only.  Since I use a Mac and iTunes my understanding is I can’t use FLAC, but I was thinking of getting Pure Music or something similar which can read FLAC natively I guess is the term.  Then I read Wayne1’s response in this short discussion and I’m not sure how it effects what I’m trying to do:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91091.0

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Feb 2011, 08:16 pm
I see, thanks for that very clear explanation that even an old analog novice to digital audio and HiRez in particular can understand.  Since stumbling into this last week I’m excited about HiRez.  I’ve been reading a lot in your circle but still have questions.  Not sure if this circle is the place to ask, but here’s one.

I want to start downloading from HDTracks and other sources.  So far all the titles I’ve looked at are available in FLAC only.  Since I use a Mac and iTunes my understanding is I can’t use FLAC, but I was thinking of getting Pure Music or something similar which can read FLAC natively I guess is the term.  Then I read Wayne1’s response in this short discussion and I’m not sure how it effects what I’m trying to do:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91091.0

Personally I would convert the FLAC to something native to iTunes like Apple lossless or AIFF so that, when using Pure Music, you can simply navigate through iTunes via an iPod touch, phone or iPad (via free Remote app).  FLAC use by Pure Music is outside the iTunes library and somewhat of a hassle IMO.  So, if on a pc, use DB Poweramp to convert, if on a MAC use one of their programs like Max.

Don't get me wrong, I like FLAC, but only to store/archive cuz it's smaller than AIFF or WAV, and holds metadata about the song/artist/time/artwork etc very easily.  I do all my tagging, ripping and converting on a pc cuz the utilities are better...and all my listening on a MAC cuz the OS is better suited for audio IMO (a real debate worthy of another thread, not this one).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 24 Feb 2011, 08:54 pm
Okay will do, didn't know about converting FLAC to AIFF.

Don't think Pure Music will do anything in my situation if I understand Wayne1's comment in the link above.  He says "To use the Logitech Touch (Transporter in my case), you must use SqueezeBox Server. That is your music control program. iTunes has absolutely nothing to do with the Transporter. Exit the program. There is no need for it. Pure Music will not do anything with the Touch.  The Touch, along with SqueezeBox Server, will stream native 24/96 without you having to do anything."

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Feb 2011, 09:10 pm
Okay will do, didn't know about converting FLAC to AIFF.

Don't think Pure Music will do anything in my situation if I understand Wayne1's comment in the link above.  He says "To use the Logitech Touch (Transporter in my case), you must use SqueezeBox Server. That is your music control program. iTunes has absolutely nothing to do with the Transporter. Exit the program. There is no need for it. Pure Music will not do anything with the Touch.  The Touch, along with SqueezeBox Server, will stream native 24/96 without you having to do anything."

Oh, you are using the Transporter (I know it well cuz I was Dan Wright's first customer and major beta tester with the incredible modded Modwright Transporter, and started one of the largest threads on AC, the MW TP thread)!  Ok, well don't convert then. :)  SqueezeBox Server and the Transporter will play FLAC just fine, up to 24/96.  Youa re good to go...

Ok, back to the HDMi de-embedder discussions. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 24 Feb 2011, 09:56 pm
Got it, I'll be playing my SACDs on the Oppo into the AT-HD577 via HDMI with a coax digital cable from the HD577 into the Transporter used as a DAC.  HDMI cable from the HD577 on to my surround sound receiver and from there to the video display. 

For anyone shopping for the Atlona AT-HD577 I've found it pretty cheap at some unfamiliar places like $239 from ramelectronics.net or $200 from hdtvsupply.com

Amazon has it for $251 via Electronic-Depot

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Feb 2011, 10:16 pm
Hear Clifford brown,
if you are going to be connected to your HDMi surround sound reciever/pro, and youa re going to be using the tried-and-true Oppo, then why spend the $$ on the Atlona?  Why not the $45 Monoprice, since you don't need EDID capture capabilities, and the Monoprice/Oppo combo is well documented as working?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 24 Feb 2011, 10:39 pm
I thought the Monoprice had optical digital output only like the HD-570.  My Oppo is in my home theater rack quite a distance from the Transporter, and I have a long coax digital cable that will reach.  But thanks for pointing this out, especially if the Monoprice has coax, and also since I could buy a log toslink cable for less than the cost differecnce on the de-embedders.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 24 Feb 2011, 10:53 pm
HCB,
It has both

(http://images2.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/55572.jpg)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 25 Feb 2011, 05:42 pm
Thanks Ted, was hoping this would be the one.  But Monoprice technical on-line help says the HDMI device the pass through is connected to needs to be turned on for it to pass the audio from either the toslink or the coaxial port.  Does anyone have experience with this switch/de-embedder to confirm this is true?  I don't want to turn the display on when listening to HiRex music. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 25 Feb 2011, 05:50 pm
Thanks Ted, was hoping this would be the one.  But Monoprice technical on-line help says the HDMI device the pass through is connected to needs to be turned on for it to pass the audio from either the toslink or the coaxial port.  Does anyone have experience with this switch/de-embedder to confirm this is true?  I don't want to turn the display on when listening to HiRex music.

Only the pre/pro/receiver needs to be on (as you stated, that's what is connected to the de-embedder, right) not the display device.  I don't need my pj on, just my Denon receiver on mute (which I use as a processor)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 25 Feb 2011, 05:58 pm
Okay that's better, yes it will be connected to the receiver in the HT system.  Looking forward to listening to HiRez, thanks for this circle!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: iceace on 28 Feb 2011, 09:46 pm
Super interesting circle, this is just what I was looking for.

My TV only accepts up to 48 kHz sample rate as input over HDMI. It does accept 24 bits though. As far as I understand, this means that I will get the benefit of 24 bits, but not get any higher sample rate (88/176/192) by using the Atlona or the Porta/Monoprice boxes, because the TV will do the HDMI handshake and limit the sample rate to 48 kHz.

I checked the newest TV models from Sony and Samsung, and they have exactly the same spec. So this problem would likely apply to most people trying to use such a solution with a TV. I don't have a HT receiver, only a 2 channel stereo where I'd like to get high def sound from SACD and Bluray played on PS3 into my Hegel HD10 DAC.

Is it worth it to get the $40 Monoprice box in order to increase bit rate from 16 to 24? How important is the increased sample rate versus the increased bit rate in HD sound?

What would be the best solutions out there to get 192 kHz also, or at least 88 kHz? I guess I could get the Atlona 577 or the Monoprice + Grefen detective, and then go to a local shop to capture the EDID of a receiver which accepts 192/24. I think this could work with SACD, but with Bluray I need the TV to be connected through HDMI to get the picture, and then I fear the TV would interfere in the handshake and still limit the sample rate to 48 kHz.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 2 Mar 2011, 11:29 pm
Would you say that if you want to take SACD and Blu-ray hi rez directly to your DAC that the Oppo BDP-95 is a waste and the Oppo BDP-93 would provide identical sonics for half the price?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 3 Mar 2011, 12:17 am
Would you say that if you want to take SACD and Blu-ray hi rez directly to your DAC that the Oppo BDP-95 is a waste and the Oppo BDP-93 would provide identical sonics for half the price?

Can't exactly answer that as I have not heard the BDP-95 analog outs to say if it is better that way but I do have a modded BDP-83 (I also have a 93 in the bedroom system) and can tell you on some things I do like the de-embedder into the DAC vs. the SACD going into analog outs on the preamp.  There are positives and negatives.  Many times the high frequencies are a bit better from the SACD via an analog connection but the overall presentation may also be better going through the DAC).  I have not compared the 93 to the 83.  My modded BDP-83 does have a clock upgrade and also an upgraded power supply.  The BDP-95 does have better power supplies as well (probably a better transport too?).  I'd have to guess that it might be a hair better but not twice as good.  I like it well enough going through the DAC that I have another unit in the secondary basement system connected to a new Emotiva DAC.  I'd have to hear a player before I'd take the plunge.  I'm using an old Oppo DV980H in the secondary basement system with it.  I talked a friend out of buying a $3k SACD player.  He's using an Oppo BDP-83SE (which I think he said he'll sell and go with the BDP-93) for now with the de-embedder
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 3 Mar 2011, 12:25 am
Would you say that if you want to take SACD and Blu-ray hi rez directly to your DAC that the Oppo BDP-95 is a waste and the Oppo BDP-93 would provide identical sonics for half the price?

My take would be yes, a waste of money.....but only if I am answering your question directly, i.e you are taking it directly to your DAC.  Phil brings up analog outs, which was not in your questions...but yes, then it becomes a question of whether your DAC and its analog stage and power supply is better than the DAC, analog stage and power supply signal path of the 95.  Mine, no brainer...I have a wonderful Weiss DAC2 and am demoing one or two of several other hi-end DACs that eat these players for lunch....but that's logical...I paid several hundred lunches more for them.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 3 Mar 2011, 03:05 am
I'm basically in agreement with Ted.  I'd put my money in a DAC vs. a more expensive player that may give you marginally better results.  I even bought an Emotiva DAC for the secondary basement system I'll probably not use all that much for audio (mainly used for daytime sporting events on weekends and the DAC will force me to do something with the PS3 sitting there like put some music on the hard drive).  The DAC can be used for multiple sources and has no moving parts like a transport.  I even spent multiple times on a better power supply for the HDMI audio de-embedder than what I spent on the HDMI audio-de-embedder itself.  Ted just explained it better and also while Ted paid several hundred lunches more, I probably ate several hundred lunches more pondering what to do. :lol:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 7 Mar 2011, 07:58 pm
So a SACD capable PS3 with the Monoprice box will allow 24/176.4 digital output and an Oppo BDP-93 with the same Monoprice box will allow 24/88.2 digital output.  I know not all PS3 units are capable of SACD playback but I believe all Oppos can playback SACDs.  Does this mean that even the cheapest Oppo 970HD would work with the Monoprice box?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 8 Mar 2011, 12:25 am
So a SACD capable PS3 with the Monoprice box will allow 24/176.4 digital output and an Oppo BDP-93 with the same Monoprice box will allow 24/88.2 digital output.  I know not all PS3 units are capable of SACD playback but I believe all Oppos can playback SACDs.  Does this mean that even the cheapest Oppo 970HD would work with the Monoprice box?

As noted in recent pages, I have not been able to get 24/176.4 with a Sony Blu-Ray player.  The DAC showed it receiving the signal but I got no sound.  I also tried with a DAC in the secondary basement system.  As long as the 970 converts DSD to PCM you should be fine.  I am using an old Oppo DV980H in the basement right now with an HDMI audio de-embedder.  The DAC (Emotiva) does not show sampling rate but I can tell it is higher quality than CD so I'd assume I'm getting 88.2
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 8 Mar 2011, 12:34 am
Phil, I've been trying to figure out the problem you're having with your Sony and 24/176.  The only thing I can think of is do you have the hdmi video out of the monoprice connected to any hdmi/digital video screen?  As I understand it, some setups require the video part of the "handshake" to be made before the audio is audible/playable.  Mine is connected to an old Samsung flat panel computer monitor with a DVI-hdmi adapter.  Before I had the video connected as well, I got no sound out of the monoprice from the Sony, although my TacT DAC showed the 24/176 lock.  Please forgive me if i'm telling you stuff you already know/have tried.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 8 Mar 2011, 12:45 am
Phil, I've been trying to figure out the problem you're having with your Sony and 24/176.  The only thing I can think of is do you have the hdmi video out of the monoprice connected to any hdmi/digital video screen?  As I understand it, some setups require the video part of the "handshake" to be made before the audio is audible/playable.  Mine is connected to an old Samsung flat panel computer monitor with a DVI-hdmi adapter.  Before I had the video connected as well, I got no sound out of the monoprice from the Sony, although my TacT DAC showed the 24/176 lock.  Please forgive me if i'm telling you stuff you already know/have tried.  Cordially,

Jay - I did not need anything connected on the output to get the signal from the Oppo BDP-83 so I assumed I did not need anything.  I really don't recall if I tried it with something connected with the Sony.  I know I have it both ways with the Oppo and I thought it sounded better with nothing connected.  When I want to watch a movie, I have an HDMI cable to the pre/pro.  If I had to guess, I'd say I did not try an HDMI cable out.  I have some other audio stuff to get to but do appreciate the input and if I get a chance over the next week or two I'll give it another shot.  So if I turn the pre/pro on with his HDMI that should be enough?  I'd hate to turn on the projector just to listen to an SACD.  I do have a 19 inch LCD around the bend not far from the listening chair and I guess at some point I could get a cheap HDMI cable from the pre/pro to it.  The pre/pro is about 6-7 feet from the de-embedder and then the TV is perhaps 12-14 feet on the other side of the room.  I use the TV for DVD-A menus or set-up from either the Oppo or the Marantz DV9600 (I use as a CD transport) and I have a cheap composite video switch and also have a camera on the front door hooked to it so if it is not Publisher's Clearing House I know it is not worth answering the door :lol:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 8 Mar 2011, 02:04 pm
Phil, I think the HDMI pre/pro turned on itself is all that is needed since it "handshakes" as well, no need to fire up your PJ, too.  I've noticed that the Sony doesn't do the initial "handshake" as well as the Oppo through the Monoprice.  As a result, I always choose the Oppo first with the Monoprice and have it establish the "handshake" and then switch the Monoprice over to the Sony. 

IIRC, there is some chatter on the internet about the Monoprice "saving" the initial handshake info once the video link first is established, so that the video part of the connection is not necessary after that first link up when you get sound.  I've not tried it since my setup (Sony + Oppo>Monoprice>DAC & monitor) works satisfactorily for me.  Good luck.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: CorsePlus on 10 Mar 2011, 04:52 am
This topic has been very interesting.
Am I correct is saying that the digital output from the de-embedder (eg Atlona HD570) is stereo, even if SACD is 5.1 surround sound?
Where has this mix come from or are you just getting the front channels? The HD570 appears to be able to simultaneously output up to 8 analog signals.
I have  a Sony BDP-S370 which allows the user to select PCM over HDMI, but how do you control the sample rate? I thought that this depended on the upstream HDMI device, eg  a TV which will handshake with the BD player or some other source of EDID.
Regards.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Mar 2011, 05:37 pm
Phil, I think the HDMI pre/pro turned on itself is all that is needed since it "handshakes" as well, no need to fire up your PJ, too.  I've noticed that the Sony doesn't do the initial "handshake" as well as the Oppo through the Monoprice.  As a result, I always choose the Oppo first with the Monoprice and have it establish the "handshake" and then switch the Monoprice over to the Sony. 

IIRC, there is some chatter on the internet about the Monoprice "saving" the initial handshake info once the video link first is established, so that the video part of the connection is not necessary after that first link up when you get sound.  I've not tried it since my setup (Sony + Oppo>Monoprice>DAC & monitor) works satisfactorily for me.  Good luck.  Cordially,

Jay - thanks for the info.  I'm behind on audio stuff but will give it a shot probably next week after I get done with some cables I'm looking at.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 13 Mar 2011, 06:23 pm
This topic has been very interesting.
Am I correct is saying that the digital output from the de-embedder (eg Atlona HD570) is stereo, even if SACD is 5.1 surround sound?
Where has this mix come from or are you just getting the front channels? The HD570 appears to be able to simultaneously output up to 8 analog signals.
I have  a Sony BDP-S370 which allows the user to select PCM over HDMI, but how do you control the sample rate? I thought that this depended on the upstream HDMI device, eg  a TV which will handshake with the BD player or some other source of EDID.
Regards.

Hi and welcome to AC!   :thumb:

The de-embedders output 2 channel coax and/or toslink, but only when you choose the 2 channel layer on the player side.  The 5.1 layer (layer is wrong term but you get the idea) can be chosen and sent out the multichannel analog outs, yes.  The sample rate of SACD is 24/88 for many players (oppos, etc) and 24/176 for the Sony's and a few others.  This is determined by the DSD-to-PCM decoder chip in the player, period. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 13 Mar 2011, 07:19 pm
I've had the Monprice in my system for a week and it works great.  All my SACDs have been ripped to my Mac (the "CD layer") and streamed to the Modwright Transporter, so I have not heard the "SACD layer" in about a year.  Now I'm spinning the SACDs on an Oppo connected to the Monoprice, and from there via coax to the Transporter used as a DAC.  Definitely more clarity and "air" in comparison to the streamed CD layer, I'm lovin' it.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 14 Mar 2011, 07:13 am
"The sample rate of SACD is 24/88 for many players (oppos, etc) and 24/176 for the Sony's and a few others.  This is determined by the DSD-to-PCM decoder chip in the player, period."

Ted_b: do we have any sense of the sound quality of this dsd-pcm conversion, say in the oppo, cambridge media chip? ie. is there much of a sq fall away cf. to the dsd?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 14 Mar 2011, 07:13 pm
Quote
So a SACD capable PS3 with the Monoprice box will allow 24/176.4 digital output and an Oppo BDP-93 with the same Monoprice box will allow 24/88.2 digital output.  I know not all PS3 units are capable of SACD playback but I believe all Oppos can playback SACDs.  Does this mean that even the cheapest Oppo 970HD would work with the Monoprice box?

Eureka! :D - let me answer my own question.  I figured the most I had to lose was $50 for the Monoprice box, so what the hell. 

Following the procedure for taking SACD directly to my DAC,  I hooked up my Oppo 970 to the Monoprice and Monoprice to LCD monitor using some HDMI cables.  At first, nothing but snow on the screen, then later I saw some glimpses of the Oppo label on the screen and saw the 24/88.2 LED on my DAC. 

It was still too intermittent, so I took the Monoprice box upstairs to see if it worked with a Windows computer and TV via HDMI.  Voila it worked, so I substituted the Oppo 970 for the Windows computer and voila again it worked, that is video and audio to my TV. 

So taking the Oppo 970 and Monoprice back downstairs and hooking them up to the LCD monitor and DAC as before and voila, a rocksteady HDMI handshake and 24/88.2 output to my DAC using the 5.1 switch on the Monoprice remote.  When the Monoprice remote is switched to stereo I just get 16/44.1.

Hopefully in a few weeks when I can borrow a Sony PS3 I will evaluate if I can get 24/176.4 output to my DAC.  I also ordered some Monoprice HDMI cables just in case the cause for my shaky start was using perhaps inferior HDMI cables.  I only wish the music and audio industry would make it easier for us to get what we want, but in the meantime at least I have an excellent solution.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Brandon B on 16 Mar 2011, 01:33 am
Has anyone used the monoprice box to capture the 24/88.2 or 176.4 to a computer file yet, or is everyone just streaming it to their DAC?

I have a launch model PS3, and will probably nab one of these if I can rip my SACDs' 2 ch stuff to my computer.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 16 Mar 2011, 02:40 am
Has anyone used the monoprice box to capture the 24/88.2 or 176.4 to a computer file yet, or is everyone just streaming it to their DAC?

I have a launch model PS3, and will probably nab one of these if I can rip my SACDs' 2 ch stuff to my computer.
Mike (mgalusha) has, I believe.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 16 Mar 2011, 03:21 am
I seem to have lost the video from my Oppo 970HD thru the Monoprice and to my monitor.  All I see now is snow but I still have audio.  Hopefully the Monoprice HDMI cables will clear up this problem since changing the Oppo settings is not possible without a monitor. I prefer not to drag this setup upstairs just to get a video handshake again.  Audio works fine as long as the Monoprice and monitor are connected by HDMI.

Quote
Has anyone used the Monoprice box to capture the 24/88.2 or 176.4 to a computer file yet, or is everyone just streaming it to their DAC?

Yes, I am capturing my SACDs to my Korg MR-2000S recorder.  My initial impression is that I prefer capturing the 24/88.2 PCM output at 24/176.4.  The higher resolution just seems to provide more air and superior musical tone.  Initially I thought I would just capture SACDs at 24/88.2 but the higher resolution sounds better.  I'm not sure why the higher resolution sounds better but perhaps it's just upsampling like using a dCS Scarlatti Upsampler.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 25 Mar 2011, 07:54 pm
I have a brand new Oppo BDP-93 and a monoprice box on the way.
I'm curious if anyone has ever confirmed that the latest gen Oppo players really output 24bit data (coax or HDMI) ??
Earlier Oppo players would truncate 24bit data down to 16 bits.
I have already confirmed that the BDP-93 will output 96/192k data (even from copy protected DVD-A's) over coax but I have no way of knowing the bit depth.

Anyone have a DAC that shows bit depth with Oppo and/or the HDMI de-embedder ??

Thanks
Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Robin Hood on 28 Mar 2011, 05:39 pm
This is the information posted on the Stereophile website a few years ago:

"DSD is converted to 24-bit/88.2KHz. This is the nominal cycling rate for a DSD to PCM conversion. This signal can't be passed over digital coaxial or optical.

DVD-Audio is truncated to 16-bit/192KHz at 2.0 Stereo when outputting over optical or coaxial. This is a hardware limitation. HDMI will support 24-bit/192Khz multi-channel over HDMI. The multi-channel analog is also performed at the same bit and cycling rate.The hardware is not designed for 24-bit over optical or coaxial. The physical ability to drive the signal is not present in the hardware transmitter. It will be 16-bit maximum."

So assuming you plan to use a HDMI splitter you should still get 24-bit audio from the newer Oppos.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Mar 2011, 05:48 pm
I have a brand new Oppo BDP-93 and a monoprice box on the way.
I'm curious if anyone has ever confirmed that the latest gen Oppo players really output 24bit data (coax or HDMI) ??
Earlier Oppo players would truncate 24bit data down to 16 bits.
I have already confirmed that the BDP-93 will output 96/192k data (even from copy protected DVD-A's) over coax but I have no way of knowing the bit depth.

Anyone have a DAC that shows bit depth with Oppo and/or the HDMI de-embedder ??

Thanks
Todd

This is not exactly true.  Earlier Oppos would ONLY truncate to 16 bit DVD_Audio from optical/coax so as to get around the MLP protection issues.  That's history.  Furthermore, Oppos never truncated to 16 bits via HDMI 1.1+, which is the vehicle that this thread is about.  Yes, the latest Oppo's do 24/192 via HDMI (SACD at 24/88.2k)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mgalusha on 28 Mar 2011, 06:08 pm
Has anyone used the monoprice box to capture the 24/88.2 or 176.4 to a computer file yet, or is everyone just streaming it to their DAC?

I am doing this. I use the Atlona 577 to break out the spdif from hdmi. My first batch were done using the coax spdif inputs on an ESI Juli@ card and recording that with Audacity. As the box that card was in went away I had to buy a new one, which doesn't not have a PCI slot for the Juli@ card. In place of this I bought a TC Impact Twin IEE 1394 (firewire) box and a PCI-E 1394 card for the computer. I switched to using Reaper for the recording, I like it much better than Audacity and it's very inexpensive for what you get.

With this setup I've found the Toslink connection between the Atlona and the TC better than the coax connection.

As I'm using an Oppo BD83 as the source I'm limited to 88.2Khz but the results are pretty good and am finally getting some use out of my 60 odd SACD's, most of which have not been played in years.

mike
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 28 Mar 2011, 10:08 pm
This is not exactly true.  Earlier Oppos would ONLY truncate to 16 bit DVD_Audio from optical/coax so as to get around the MLP protection issues.  That's history.  Furthermore, Oppos never truncated to 16 bits via HDMI 1.1+, which is the vehicle that this thread is about.  Yes, the latest Oppo's do 24/192 via HDMI (SACD at 24/88.2k)

Thanks Ted.
I'll just have to give it a try (soon) since my de-embedder will be waiting for me when I get home and see ho it sounds Vs the Oppo's internal DAC.
BTW: to anyone interested, the BDP-93 will play stereo 24/96/192k FLAC files on a data disc (CD or DVD), USB or SATA hard drive !!
I downlaoded some test files from Linn music and burned to DVD (works perfectly).

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 28 Mar 2011, 10:50 pm
So, is it true that the current Oppo (& CA) Mediatek chip outputs less than 24bit via its spdif co-ax with dvd-a?  My dac is certainly displaying 96 & 192 sample rate, but doesn't show bit depth (how many do?).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 31 Mar 2011, 12:22 am
Bump!  Just checking I read earlier post correctly:

So, is it true that the current Oppo (& CA) Mediatek chip outputs less than 24bit via its spdif co-ax with dvd-a?

My dac is certainly displaying 96 & 192 sample rate, but doesn't show bit depth (how many do?).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 31 Mar 2011, 01:42 am
Current Oppos (mediatek chip) do 24 bit via coax.  Oppo confirmed it and it is why I posted it a few posts earlier here.  However, this thread is about HDMI.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 13 Apr 2011, 02:12 am
O.K. so I borrowed my brothers Cambridge audio 840C CD player/DAC.
It shows not only sample rate but bit depth also.

With the coax output from the Oppo BDP-93, the DAC inputs (2 of them) read 24bit/96k or 24bit/192k when playing a DVD-A (used Steely Dan Gaucho for 96k & Eagles Hotel california for 192k).
When I connect the mono price box via HDMI to the same DAC inputs.
I could only get the 24/96k disc to lock. I suspect that the monoprice box/HDMI has too much jitter or poor signal quality to lock (same was true for any optical connection direct from Oppo or thru Mono box).
I tried all combinations of audio settings on the oppo and it will not work @ 192k sample rate with Monoprice sw box.

Next came the surprise and what I think will be argued a bit but I popped in a stereo SACD (Time out by Dave Brubeck) and I got 20bit/88.2k for input from the Monoprice box...
Again, no comination of setttings on the Oppo would change this.

I would gather that the Oppo does not convert SACD to 24bit/88.2k but only 20 bit/88.2k and for myself see no reason to continiue with the monoprice box !!

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Apr 2011, 03:08 am
I am not sure which Monoprice box you are using.  I also have not had the time to try the BDP-93 but have already tried the BDP-83 and it does pass 192kHz with the Monoprice box.  I also have the Port-ta box (PET4000) who makes the unit for Monoprice.  I used the Eagles Hotel California for one of my tests too.  It had no trouble locking on 192kHz.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Apr 2011, 03:15 am
Below are the links for the Monoprice and Port-ta boxes.  The Port-ta has been confirmed all over to pass more than 96kHz as in the link below.  Also below is a picture of the Porta and Monoprice boxes together.


http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2


http://www.port-ta.com/products/203.html


http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/32607-SACD-playback-into-Generic-2ch-DAC/page4



(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=35723)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Apr 2011, 03:28 am
O.K. so I borrowed my brothers Cambridge audio 840C CD player/DAC.
It shows not only sample rate but bit depth also.

With the coax output from the Oppo BDP-93, the DAC inputs (2 of them) read 24bit/96k or 24bit/192k when playing a DVD-A (used Steely Dan Gaucho for 96k & Eagles Hotel california for 192k).
When I connect the mono price box via HDMI to the same DAC inputs.
I could only get the 24/96k disc to lock. I suspect that the monoprice box/HDMI has too much jitter or poor signal quality to lock (same was true for any optical connection direct from Oppo or thru Mono box).
I tried all combinations of audio settings on the oppo and it will not work @ 192k sample rate with Monoprice sw box.

Next came the surprise and what I think will be argued a bit but I popped in a stereo SACD (Time out by Dave Brubeck) and I got 20bit/88.2k for input from the Monoprice box...
Again, no comination of setttings on the Oppo would change this.

I would gather that the Oppo does not convert SACD to 24bit/88.2k but only 20 bit/88.2k and for myself see no reason to continiue with the monoprice box !!

Todd

The Cambridge Audio is apparently also known to show incorrect bit depths - http://www.whathifi.com/forum/computer-based-music/24-bit-music-popcorn-hour-and-cambridge-audio-840c
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 13 Apr 2011, 05:54 am
I am not sure which Monoprice box you are using.  I also have not had the time to try the BDP-93 but have already tried the BDP-83 and it does pass 192kHz with the Monoprice box.  I also have the Port-ta box (PET4000) who makes the unit for Monoprice.  I used the Eagles Hotel California for one of my tests too.  It had no trouble locking on 192kHz.

I have the same monoprice box that you have (clone of the porta box).
It does pass 192khz into another DAC that I have as I reported in an earlier post on this page. I was mainly interested in what bit depth the monoprice box was passing along (and no one on this forum could confirm) ? As I stated it does pass 24bit data (96k sample DVD-A) but the cambridge unit will not lock @ 192k suggesting poor signal quality or very high jitter from the de-embedder??
Why would the Cambridge circuit show 24bit for DVD-A (96k) and 20 bit/88.2k for SACD both from the same output of the monoprice box??
I thought the Oppo players were converting DSD to 24/88 ??
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Apr 2011, 10:43 am
If you look at the previous link and read the posts it will explain that the bit depth readout is not always accurate on the Cambridge.  I have a modded BDP-83 and all I can say is that going through the DAC I prefer the PCM vs. the SACD in most cases with an exception here or there.  I have a BDP-93 but it is in the bedroom system.  It's on my to do list to try it with the box as I might want to the 2 HDMI outs at some point (I swap cables to play movies in the main system).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 13 Apr 2011, 12:57 pm
I know of a few folks who record the stream from the Monoprice, and it is definitely 24 bit.  Your Cambridge may be having issues with 192k due to voltage issues and the sensitivity of the DACs clock.  Of the many DACs I've eval'd over the past year at least 3 of them had problems with 192k signals from my Atlona, but the majority are very stable and sound great.  Of the 3 that didn't pass, 2 of them were fine with coax at 192k, one wasn't...
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 13 Apr 2011, 07:56 pm
I know of a few folks who record the stream from the Monoprice, and it is definitely 24 bit.  Your Cambridge may be having issues with 192k due to voltage issues and the sensitivity of the DACs clock.  Of the many DACs I've eval'd over the past year at least 3 of them had problems with 192k signals from my Atlona, but the majority are very stable and sound great.  Of the 3 that didn't pass, 2 of them were fine with coax at 192k, one wasn't...

Again, I'm not saying the monoprice box does not do 24bit (read my posts and you will see it does) !!
On SACD however I do NOT get the same bit depth with monoprice box (all else the same) ?? I guess the Oppo's DSD to PCM conversion could be missing the status bit needed to tell the Cambridge DAC's what the bit depth is  (if in fact it is really 24bit/88.2k)??
As far as 192k goes, since I have no problem with that coming right out of the Oppo's coax, the fact that the HDMI de-embedder won't lock is just a measure of quality for the monoprice box !!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 13 Apr 2011, 08:11 pm
Again, I'm not saying the monoprice box does not do 24bit (read my posts and you will see it does) !!
On SACD however I do NOT get the same bit depth with monoprice box (all else the same) ?? I guess the Oppo's DSD to PCM conversion could be missing the status bit needed to tell the Cambridge DAC's what the bit depth is  (if in fact it is really 24bit/88.2k)??
As far as 192k goes, since I have no problem with that coming right out of the Oppo's coax, the fact that the HDMI de-embedder won't lock is just a measure of quality for the monoprice box !!
Todd, sorry I wasn't clear; I was referring to Oppo SACD captures (the above recording being done from the SACD-HDMi-Monoprice feed). 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 30 Apr 2011, 08:02 am
Phil A: "As noted in recent pages, I have not been able to get 24/176.4 with a Sony Blu-Ray player.  The DAC showed it receiving the signal but I got no sound."
Phil, I've had this same issue, when I got a Sony BDP-S370 for sacd conversion to 176.4, with an Atlona 577.  My CA650BD (Oppo chipset) is fine with 88.2 conversion & sound out of dac, but with the Sony the dac shows the 176 conversion - but no actual sound signal. Did you sort your problem with this?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 30 Apr 2011, 12:18 pm
Phil A: "As noted in recent pages, I have not been able to get 24/176.4 with a Sony Blu-Ray player.  The DAC showed it receiving the signal but I got no sound."
Phil, I've had this same issue, when I got a Sony BDP-S370 for sacd conversion to 176.4, with an Atlona 577.  My CA650BD (Oppo chipset) is fine with 88.2 conversion & sound out of dac, but with the Sony the dac shows the 176 conversion - but no actual sound signal. Did you sort your problem with this?

James - no not yet.  Someone suggested several pages back that turning on my Integra pre/pro to allow a handshake might solve it.  I have the Sony (same model as you but it is labeled as BDP-BX37) but it is in the office system with a Pioneer 1120 where I can pass DSD.  It is on my to do list when I get a chance to try this.  What I noticed with my Port-ta box (same as Monoprice), it seems to sound better with my Oppo with nothing hooked up to the HDMI out.  While I get 88.2 with the Oppo, I can upsample it in my DAC and when I get to re-try the experiment, I want to be able to spend time.  Might be a few more weeks or so until I get to it.  Have been doing some outside stuff and just got a digital coax cable to evaluate.  I actually am very pleased withe quality of 88.2 into the DAC.  It sounds better to me than my modded Oppo BDP-83.  If I can get it a little better, that would be great too
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 30 Apr 2011, 09:07 pm
I think I have this straight, but perhaps someone with more experience could confirm it?

If I buy the Monoprice box to take the signal from my Oppo 83, will I still need to connect the HDMI output of the Monoprice to something (will a HDTV only work?  will a Geffen HDMI Detective only work too?)   Is the highest resolution for SACD's this way 24/88.2?  Will the Monoprice pass 24/192 from DVD-A's and/or Blurays with a 24/192 recording?

Thank you!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 30 Apr 2011, 09:10 pm
I think I have this straight, but perhaps someone with more experience could confirm it?

If I buy the Monoprice box to take the signal from my Oppo 83, will I still need to connect the HDMI output of the Monoprice to something (will a HDTV only work?  will a Geffen HDMI Detective only work too?)   Is the highest resolution for SACD's this way 24/88.2?  Will the Monoprice pass 24/192 from DVD-A's and/or Blurays with a 24/192 recording?

Thank you!

It's covered many pages back.  With the Monoprice box (product ID 5557) from the Oppo you don't need anything connected to the output (in fact I think it sounds better with nothing connected to the output).  It does pass 192kHz from DVD-As.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 30 Apr 2011, 09:21 pm
Thanks, but do I ever need to hook the Monoprice up to an HDMI device for a "handshake"?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 30 Apr 2011, 09:36 pm
The Oppo passes 192k from DVD-A's from it's coax out, regardless of HDMI de-embedding.  And I can't imagine the Monoprice box does not need a handshake to be initially learned (although i wasn't aware it had that capability).  Certainly my Atlona box does (HD-570) and is what HDMi looks for.  Phil has become the de-embedder specialist more than me though, so I can't argue.  It's just atypical.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 30 Apr 2011, 09:38 pm
The Oppo (BDP-83SE) manual says some commercial DVD-A's will not pass more than 48 kHz through the coax output.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 30 Apr 2011, 09:39 pm
Thanks, but do I ever need to hook the Monoprice up to an HDMI device for a "handshake"?

I use the Port-ta box (same as Monoprice and they make it for Monoprice - Googel Port-ta PET4000) every week with the BDP-83 with no handshake and I also use the Monoprice box in the secondary basement system with an old Oppo DV980H with no handshake as well
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 30 Apr 2011, 09:41 pm
I have not tried every DVD-A made, but I own over 60 and I have not had one where the BDP-83 would not sent the full resolution over coax to my DAC
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 30 Apr 2011, 09:46 pm
Thanks so much!  It seems to good to be true   :thumb:  I'll be checking out the Rega and AVA DAC's in the next couple of months.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 1 May 2011, 02:34 am
Thanks Phil, hope you sort it eventually.  Meanwhile, I'm still chipping away at different ways through this no sound pass-through of displayed 176.4 from Sony into Atlona 577.  I just don't fundamentally 'get' the concept of having the dac clearly receive the 176, but has no signal to give to the pre. Explanations?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 1 May 2011, 02:38 am
Thanks Phil, hope you sort it eventually.  Meanwhile, I'm still chipping away at different ways through this no sound pass-through of displayed 176.4 from Sony into Atlona 577.  I just don't fundamentally 'get' the concept of having the dac clearly receive the 176, but has no signal to give to the pre. Explanations?

I had the same thing.  I'll try to catch up and try it with the pre/pro taking a handshake perhaps next weekend.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 6 May 2011, 12:58 pm
Here is some great info from a de-embedder thread on Computer audiophile.  Pacwin claims that yes, the HDMI processor on the back end IS important (i.e capturing or using the EDID must be from a processor capable of 24/176 if you wanna do 24/176.  So borrow one, capture it, and be done).  Other info too, especially about getting a Sony to work.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Atlona-HD577-Audio-De-embedder-Experiences-Sony-BDP-S370-and-Samsung-PS50C550-HDMI-endpoint
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 6 May 2011, 01:54 pm
FWIW, I establish the initial handshake with my OPPO player and then use the de-embedder switch to change over to the Sony (I use the Sony for SACD and the OPPO for everything else).  About as often as not, when I try to use the Sony first, I can't get a feed until I get the OPPO to handshake.  Seems odd and I have no idea why this pattern has developed, but, if I start with the OPPO, then switch to the Sony, I have no problems getting 176 sound out of SACD's.  Good luck.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 6 May 2011, 02:29 pm
FWIW, I establish the initial handshake with my OPPO player and then use the de-embedder switch to change over to the Sony (I use the Sony for SACD and the OPPO for everything else).  About as often as not, when I try to use the Sony first, I can't get a feed until I get the OPPO to handshake.  Seems odd and I have no idea why this pattern has developed, but, if I start with the OPPO, then switch to the Sony, I have no problems getting 176 sound out of SACD's.  Good luck.  Cordially,

Thanks - it's on my list to try later this weekend.  I just need to move the Sony from my office system.  Do you notice a difference in sound quality from SACDs between the Oppo vs. the Sony feeding your DAC?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 6 May 2011, 05:11 pm
"Do you notice a difference in sound quality from SACDs between the Oppo vs. the Sony feeding your DAC?"

To be honest, I'm not sure that I do.  While I >think< I hear an improvement, that may just be the halo effect from seeing the "176" on the DAC display instead of the 88.  i don't have copies of any of the SACD's I own, so instantaneous a/b'ing can't be done.  Given what I've read about aural memory, I suspect that I might "forget" what I heard from the OPPO by the time I switch the SACD from it to the Sony.  If I can lay my hands on a copy of one of my SACD's with which I'm familiar, I could cue both the OPPO and the Sony up for a/b comparison via the HDMI switcher.  I'll post if I do and hear a repeatable difference.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 6 May 2011, 05:23 pm
Jay - thanks, I might have one duplicate (I think I have both the stereo and multi-channel "Kind of Blue" so I can play them both in stereo) if I get around to trying it.  What I get from the Oppo sounds good.  I have to get around to do the comparison anyway sooner or later as I'm likely going to move my Oppo BDP-93 from the bedroom system and put my modded BDP-83 in the bedroom system.  Will make it a bit easier with the 2 HDMI's (but it is not a huge deal swapping HDMI cables).  I probably can borrow copies of SACDs I have if I feel it is worth it.  If it works, next time one of my friends comes over, I'll ask him to bring some of what I have.  It sounds so good now, and I've been busy with non-audio stuff that I've put it off.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 7 May 2011, 02:16 am
Jaywills, I set my Atlona 577 up much the same, with Cambridge establishing edid & Sony switchable.  But, no go!  Sony just registers 176.4 on dac display, with no sound. CA 650BD is fine, at 24/88.2.

Would have thought CompAudiophile solution of suggested receiver with 24/192 would also mean no CA sound at 24/88.2?  I'm just using TV as hdmi endpoint.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 7 May 2011, 11:58 am
Good morning, James, sorry to hear about your difficulties.  While I'm not familiar with the Atlona, when checking its owner's manual, I noticed that its s/pdif output is "two channel only."  On the Monoprice I'm using, when I select "2-channel," I get no sound either; it must be switched to 5.1 (for reasons that remain mysterious to me) in order for me to get two-channel sound out at 176.  If you have a spare toslink cable, which I'm inferring will do multi-channel from the Atlona info cited above, you might try connecting with it to see if that gives you some relief.  Sorry not to be able to be more helpful.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jaywills on 7 May 2011, 12:03 pm
BTW, James, I recall from the Atlona instructions that the rear panel DIP switches must be used to establish the edid for each source separately.  While I suspect that you've already pursued that, I thought I'd mention it as well in case it had been overlooked.  Good luck.  Cordially,
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 9 May 2011, 12:49 am
I gave the Sony another shot tonight.  I located two identical HDMI cables as well.  I started with the Oppo.  Played fine and the DAC displayed 88.2kHz.  After that I tried the Sony.  The DAC displayed 176.4kHz but like before no sound.  I connected an HDMI cable to the pre/pro and turn that on and did get sound.  However, as reported much earlier in the thread, to me what I hear sounds degraded with an output cable.  I listened to a bunch of things, including sinking the two copies of Kind of Blue (and swapping them too).  Not much difference and to me once I removed the cable to the pre/pro and turned it off the Oppo sounded better.  Definitely was a strange experience though.  I hope the BDP 93 works out.  It will probably be a few weeks but I think I'm going to be putting that in the main system (from the bedroom system) and move the modded BDP-83 to the bedroom (or perhaps sell it).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: adol290 on 17 May 2011, 04:40 pm
Phil,

Can you please explain your hardware flow.

When playing a DVD-A from your blu-ray player,
  you output HDMI to the monoprice
  output SPDIF from monoprice to BDA-1
 
  Output from the BDA-1  with ?

  into which pre/pro
  which inputs on the pre/pro

 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 17 May 2011, 04:59 pm
I use both sets of analog outs on the BDA-1.  The main system backs to the bedroom system (my system pics are in my gallery).  The balanced analog outs from the BDA-1 go into my Modwright LS36.5DM preamp.  The RCA outs go to the bedroom system.  I have 4 sources hooked to the BDA-1.  HDMI Audio De-embedder, Squeezebox Touch, Marantz DV9600 universal which I use as a CD transport and I have a modded Oppo BDP-83.  Since I prefer going through the de-embedder for hi-rez PCM extracted from the Oppo into the BDA-1, I'm likely going to move (or sell) the modded BDP-83 to the bedroom system and move the BDP-93 I have in the bedroom system into the main system.  The BDP-93 has the two HDMI outs so I can have one going to the pre/pro and one to the DAC.  Yes, the de-embedder is a switch but it seems to sound a bit better with nothing connected to the output to me (I also have an upgraded power supply for the de-embedder - anything that will work for the Squeezebox Touch will work it it - I have the Channel Islands - ciaudio.com).  I also have a small 19 inch LCD monitor about 6 feet from my chair (attached a pic so you can get an idea).  I have a switch into that so I can view things like DVD-A menus without turning on the projector or change settings on the Oppo or Marantz (connected composite video to it.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19403)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 17 May 2011, 05:05 pm
Hope it helps and I wasn't too confusing.  I have a composite video switch on the little TV and I can view a picture of my front door (I have it piped all around with a 5.8G wireless sender receiver and then hardwired to different rooms) and can also change or view menus.  I used to have a DVD recorder hooked to it as well and it make it easy when I dubbed something from an old mini-DV camcorder so I could view without turning on the projector.  I have a lot of equipment in the main system.  Behind the couch in the rear center of the photo is my Bryston 6BSST which drives the center and surrounds and an old Marantz monoblock for the rear center.  That sub on the far side of the room is a Rel Strata II for the rear Thiel Power Points - you can see one above the tree
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: adol290 on 17 May 2011, 05:29 pm
Thanks,

Help's a lot.  I was looking at going Hirez, but my pre/pro is not up to par for the job.

I am running an Integra 9.8(used for movies/concerts), hardly good enough to do it justice.

I would have to get a good pre - like the BP26, plus the BDA-1.

My blu-ray is the marantz BD8002. I was looking at upgrading to the Oppo 95.

So, a costly upgrade at this point.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 17 May 2011, 05:31 pm
Phil,
I think I now understand why you can run the Monoprice without an HDMi cable on the backend.....your Oppo ALREADY has a handshake with its second HDMi cable.  !
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jjc1 on 17 May 2011, 06:49 pm
I use both sets of analog outs on the BDA-1.  The main system backs to the bedroom system (my system pics are in my gallery).  The balanced analog outs from the BDA-1 go into my Modwright LS36.5DM preamp.  The RCA outs go to the bedroom system.  I have 4 sources hooked to the BDA-1.  HDMI Audio De-embedder, Squeezebox Touch, Marantz DV9600 universal which I use as a CD transport and I have a modded Oppo BDP-83.  Since I prefer going through the de-embedder for hi-rez PCM extracted from the Oppo into the BDA-1, I'm likely going to move (or sell) the modded BDP-83 to the bedroom system and move the BDP-93 I have in the bedroom system into the main system.  The BDP-93 has the two HDMI outs so I can have one going to the pre/pro and one to the DAC.  Yes, the de-embedder is a switch but it seems to sound a bit better with nothing connected to the output to me (I also have an upgraded power supply for the de-embedder - anything that will work for the Squeezebox Touch will work it it - I have the Channel Islands - ciaudio.com).  I also have a small 19 inch LCD monitor about 6 feet from my chair (attached a pic so you can get an idea).  I have a switch into that so I can view things like DVD-A menus without turning on the projector or change settings on the Oppo or Marantz (connected composite video to it.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19403)
Phil, how do you connect the HDMI output to the DAC? I have an older Oppo with an HDMI output which I wud like to connect to my BDA1 and maybe get sacd music. What imput wud I use on the BDA1? Is there a cable with HDMI on one end and a digital connector on the other end?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 May 2011, 01:12 am
You use the HDMI audio de-embedder.  Monoprice product ID 5557.  I have an old Oppo DV980H in the secondary basement system connected to an Emotiva DAc as well
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 May 2011, 01:14 am
Phil,
I think I now understand why you can run the Monoprice without an HDMi cable on the backend.....your Oppo ALREADY has a handshake with its second HDMi cable.  !

Ted - no I'm using the BDP-83 - just one HDMI out.  I want to use the 93 so I don't have to swap cables
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 May 2011, 01:15 am
Thanks,

Help's a lot.  I was looking at going Hirez, but my pre/pro is not up to par for the job.

I am running an Integra 9.8(used for movies/concerts), hardly good enough to do it justice.

I would have to get a good pre - like the BP26, plus the BDA-1.

My blu-ray is the marantz BD8002. I was looking at upgrading to the Oppo 95.

So, a costly upgrade at this point.

 I use an Integra 9.8 for movies too
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 May 2011, 01:16 am
Monoprice de-embedder - http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 21 May 2011, 07:27 am
In Aust's Stereonet this is significant - a long running thread of someone using atlona 577 from sony & oppo, & then attempting to record, finally gives up because of poor dsd conversion quality!:

"This morning I plugged my BDP-S370 into my Thor PS10, and re-tried the 24/176.4 capture of track 5. Still the same result, jaggies.
I'm resigned to the fact that the BDP-S370 is a compromise for SACD playback. As is the Oppo.
It's taken significant time and energy to this point in pursuing this capture method, and my conclusion is that the DSD2PCM conversion chip/step in the players is critical to the end result. I could continue on by finding a player with a better conversion chip for this capture task, such an Arcam universal (which is reported to support 24/176.4 pcm output for sacd playback) - but that would mean throwing more money at this, with no certainty that the Arcam is an ideal solution - it may well have it's own compromises.
Interestingly, before I started zenelectro did warn me that what I get will only be as good as the dsd2pcm step in the players, and the filtering used. That turned out to be very true. But I forged on anyway, and have learned alot in the process.
So I'm officially abandoning the capture method, as a means of backup. And after seeing the compromise made on the digital signal, I'm also abandoning this method of playing back sacd's into generic 2ch dacs. My investment in this gear isnt completely wasted, as my backups of Bluray discs has been clean. And I'll be able to use it, for extracting Bluray music to PCM files, or for playing back Bluray concerts into my 2ch dac as opposed to my receiver.
I will be pursuing extraction of DSD files from SACD's, using sacd-ripper and a sacd capable PS3. I'll probably start another thread on this.
Case closed."
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: tubesguy2 on 4 Jun 2011, 01:46 pm
Just wanted to thank you folks for this thread. I had briefly looked at it when Ted first posted, but the notion of spending roughly $700-750 on a new Oppo and the Atlona kept me from getting really interested. (I only have about 20 SACDs to rip.)

Last weekend I chanced to read the last few pages, and caught the references to the Monoprice box.  Hmm, that was more like it, price-wise.  Then I started thinking about a suitable player, and saw that the Oppo 670HD was being used. Hey, I knew that I had a 670 at one time and had lent it to a neighbor (she's way cute, what can I say?) so I went down to the basement box storage area and discovered that it was in fact a 670HD.  So over to the neighbor (with a Denon for replacement loan), and I've got my SACD recording station for  a total outlay of $45.

Took a bit of screwing around with setup for the 670HD (hint: there is none, the PCM settings in the menu are without effect on the SACD/PCM conversion/streaming) and a quick re-read of a couple of posts (Monoprice box set to 5.1) and I'm in business.

I'm going to use my Alesis Masterlink to rip to its CD24 format (AIFF) and then on to the computer for conversion to FLAC and playback via a Squeezebox Touch. Not sure at this point when and how best to label the tracks, but I'll give it a shot this weekend.

Thanks again, boys. - Pat
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 5 Jun 2011, 08:34 pm
Gang,
Those of you who own the Atlona 577 I need your help.   

I got a message from a very grateful de-embedder user over on Steve Hoffman's forum.  He has had great success with the original Atlona 570 (the one I reviewed that started this craze) but is hitting a bump with the newer 577. 

He says:
"Now, I have a question: I've been using the Atlona HD570 with an Oppo BD-83 since you first recommended it with great results.
This weekend, I'm trying out the HD577, but I can only get "half" resolution from it. My DAC reports Blu-Ray at 48k and SACD at 44k. Do you think I'm missing a setting somewhere in the Oppo? Or perhaps I got a bad 577?"


Is this where he needs to set it for 5.1 or something?  Thx
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: kdbrink on 5 Jun 2011, 08:49 pm
That was me! This is officially my first post on AudioCircle.

Thank you Ted!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: mgalusha on 5 Jun 2011, 10:26 pm
My AD/DA converter shows 88.2 when I feed it from the 577. I'm using a TC Electronic Impact Twin. I get better results using optical from the 577 than with coax. The TC is connected to the PC using IEEE 1934, using Reaper for the recording. Reaper shows 88.2 as well, hopefully it's not lying to me.  :?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dwk on 5 Jun 2011, 11:51 pm
Mike,
 Is there a 'recording with Reaper 101' that shows your basic flow out there. I've been using Reaper for a while, but basically as a VST host to apply DSP xovers (their ReaRoute virtual ASIO driver is great for that), so just processing input to output with no file IO.  I'm finally on the brink of getting set up with my Atlona 570 and Oppo 970 (at least I think it's a 970), so if I can do the recording with Reaper that would be ideal. I would guess it's straightforward enough aside from track splitting, but since we have a single digital library and like to play it on random with the squeezebox, the splitting is unavoidable.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 15 Jun 2011, 02:00 am
I just wanted to confirm what has already been reported for the cheap little Monoprice box; with the Oppo as a source, it will de-embed SACD or DVD-A (DVD-V and CD too, if you want) without being hooked up to a HDMI receiver, just the Oppo as a source.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jjc1 on 15 Jun 2011, 06:55 pm
You use the HDMI audio de-embedder.  Monoprice product ID 5557.  I have an old Oppo DV980H in the secondary basement system connected to an Emotiva DAc as well
Phil, don't know if I ever thanked you. I got the Monoprice, used my old Oppo as a transport, connected the Monoprice to my BDA1 with Kimber digital cable then BDA1 tio my amp. The sound was great. When I connect the Oppo directly to my amp, the sound is detailed but very thin. Thru the Monoprice and BDA1, the sound is full, rich and detailed.
Thanks again for the tip.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 15 Jun 2011, 07:18 pm
Phil, don't know if I ever thanked you. I got the Monoprice, used my old Oppo as a transport, connected the Monoprice to my BDA1 with Kimber digital cable then BDA1 tio my amp. The sound was great. When I connect the Oppo directly to my amp, the sound is detailed but very thin. Thru the Monoprice and BDA1, the sound is full, rich and detailed.
Thanks again for the tip.

That's OK - that's what places like this are here for.  If I get a chance this weekend, I may swap my modded BDP-83 and put it in the bedroom system (so I can play all formats I need) and move the BDP-93 from the bedroom system to the main system and take advantage of the dual HDMI outs for music and movies
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 20 Jun 2011, 04:03 am
Well I swapped the BDP-93 from the bedroom system (was a good dusting opportunity anyway :D) and I did not try every combination but I could not get it to work with the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder in the same manner as the BDP-83 works.  I tried a bunch of different settings and had the de-embedder on the HDMI 2 output.  I even tried setting the BDP-93 so HDMI 2 was the primary output.  So perhaps (I did not try it) it needs a handshake with the BDP-93?  I'd be curious if anyone else has been able to use a de-embedder with the newer Oppos without the handshake.  For me with the BDP-83, it's nice when I want to hear SACD that I don't need the handshake.  Unhooking the HDMI cable into the de-embedder and hooking up one to the Integra 9.8 to watch a Blu-Ray is not that big a deal as the area is very easy to get to.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Marius on 20 Jun 2011, 09:42 am
HI!,

Just getting familiar with all the new options and problems...
would this be your Port-ta box: http://www.port-ta.com/products/203.html? Couldn't find the modelnumber in the topic-thread. I'd use it for DVD-A and SACD audio. Does SACD audio go through the hdmi? Never realized that before.

Greetings,
Marius

PS - I talked a friend into getting the Port-ta box which he just received and he told me Monoprice has the same box with their name on it and I looked at their site and it looks identical -  http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 20 Jun 2011, 11:30 am
HI!,

Just getting familiar with all the new options and problems...
would this be your Port-ta box: http://www.port-ta.com/products/203.html? Couldn't find the modelnumber in the topic-thread. I'd use it for DVD-A and SACD audio. Does SACD audio go through the hdmi? Never realized that before.

Greetings,
Marius

The model number and that link are in the thread.  It's a long thread though.  Port-ta makes the Monoprice box as well which is here:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5557&seq=1&format=2

I have both of them and they are identical.  I use one in the main system (with a Bryston DAC) and one in the basement system with an Emotiva DAC.  I have a (modded) Oppo BDP-83 in the main system and an old Oppo DV980H in the basement system.  Here are pictures I previously posted of the Port-ta and Monoprice boxes:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=35723)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=35722)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=35721)





Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dwk on 23 Jun 2011, 01:21 pm
Okay, I tried going through the thread for insight on my problem, but without a search-within-thread feature it's tough.

I'm running an Oppo 981HD into an Atlona 570, then optical output to a Behringer SRC2496 which is slaved to the word clock of my audio interface (Steinberg MR816 set to either 44.1 or 88.2 in my tests). I'm doing this because I run fixed-rate DSP crossovers on the pc and need to normalize to a single sample rate.  Monitor is an Acer 1080p w/ hdmi input.

I'm 99% certain that when I first hooked it up, the SRC2496 showed 88.2k for the input rate for SACD as expected. After reconfiguring and recabling, I'm now showing 44.1.  This occurs regardless of whether the word clock is set to 44.1 or 88.2. I *think* I have the configuration exactly the same as it was originally, but I guess it's possible that I switched something up.

This is occurring even on non-hybrid SACD-only discs, so it doesn't seem to be a problem with picking the redbook layer.

So, my question is whether there is any valid handshake scenario that would result in the Oppo sending PCM over HDMI but down-rezing to 44.1.  It seems to me that the only way this could happen is if the EDID info indicated that the device was limited to 44.1, but since the Atlona is in the loop I didn't think this should happen.

My suspicion is actually that the Oppo is outputting 88.2 but that the SRC2496 is failing to lock at full rate and is instead locking at half-rate (the 8420 SRC chip used in the Behringer gear is known to have issues over 48k, but I was hoping that it was going to work), but it seems worth exploring whether there is a potential problem in the HDMI setup.

If I can't figure this out the next step is to send the optical output from the Atlona straight to the audio interface and slave to the incoming optical signal and see what happens. This isn't really an ideal situation since it means having multiple configurations in my audio processing stack and manually switching based on sample rate, but it should confirm where the problem lies.

The only other standalone SRC unit that will slave to a word clock that I've been able to find is $800, so if the Behringer doesn't work I've either facing shelling out for the better unit, or having to manually switch configurations for each source - neither of which is particularly attractive. Blah.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Aleg on 23 Jun 2011, 01:51 pm
I myself don't use the Atlona but the Octava and I don't know the Atlona.

But I wonder if the Atlona has been modified to work outside the HDMI specs, because if I understand correctly normally an HDMI device should check with attached HDMI devices what the highest resolution is they can process. The Atlona as a switch would normally only pass on the request and the reply between both devices.

So my guess would be that it needs to have that succesfull handshake first with a high-res capable device.

Did you ever had it connected to a high-res capable hdmi devices in the past to let it complete the handshake?

The Octava I use has a modified firmware chip that causes it not to pass on the handshake request (at least for the audio IIUC) but process it against its own EDID chip.  I modded the EDID chip to suit my own requirements.

-
aleg
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dwk on 23 Jun 2011, 03:05 pm
Well, I guess that is a bit interesting. I was pretty sure it originally worked at 88.2 which implied that the audio handshake was working somewhere. However, when going through my monitor menus the volume control was greyed out - apparently my particular model doesn't have speakers, so I'm not sure what capabilities would be negotiated.

Fortunately I happened to have a Panny XR57 in the rack, and was able to loop through that. Voila - 88.2k, and based on 5 minutes of playing the SRC2496 seems to lock just fine (although it's only outputting 44.1 since I reconfigured in a debugging attempt). (Straight, No Chaser sounds pretty darn good even resampled down to 44.1)

So, I guess I'll have to see whether the Atlona will remember once it's initialized, or whether I'll have to keep the receiver in the loop for now. 

Thanks for the suggestion, Aleg.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 11 Jul 2011, 12:03 am
I went to the Capital Audiofest the last couple of days (capitalaudiofest.com).  One the rooms was everythingaudio.net.  I had a discussion with John Gatski, about de-embedders.  He does have an Atlona and also an Oppo Player and has had a variety of players with it.  He happened to have one of these - http://www.markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/Audio-Signal-Conversion/DaySequerra/ADAC-2.xhtml?ATI-ADAC-2

He uses it with the optical out just to read bit depth (and he said the DAC is not bad but he does not use it - has a Benchmark so he may use the headphone out on occasion and uses it primarily to test bit depth).  He advised that the Sony players only do 16 bit.  So those of you with a Sony are only getting 16/176.4.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 13 Jul 2011, 02:54 am
Here in Oz, it's accepted the Sony s370 gives 16/ with optical - but, for example, "SACD playback with the player option set to LPCM via the HDMI output is 24 bit/176.4kHz from the Port-ta's coaxial digital output."
Has this group measured the coax dig out?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 13 Jul 2011, 03:06 am
I am not sure of the particulars but the unit he uses to measure does have a coax input.  I'd assume (but can't be sure) that he measured it with the coax input.  At the Capital Audiofest I also spoke to the Integra rep who was using a closed-out Integra DPS 6.9 into the big pre/pro.  This is a DVD universal player.  I did read the manual and it does indicate it can output 176.4kHz.  There is less than 100 left in their warehouse.  I ordered one from my local dealer (with tax and shipping was a few dollars over $300).  I figured I could always find a place for it somewhere and it is not a horrible price.  If I find it works with the de-embedder, I may drop John Gatski a line and since he is local to me see if I can bring over the Integra and see what it outputs.  If so, I can talk to him more.  I personally could not get the Sony to work without a handshake and I thought it did not sound as good as the Oppo.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jjc1 on 13 Jul 2011, 04:00 pm
I just wanted to confirm what has already been reported for the cheap little Monoprice box; with the Oppo as a source, it will de-embed SACD or DVD-A (DVD-V and CD too, if you want) without being hooked up to a HDMI receiver, just the Oppo as a source.
I can't get my Oppo/Monoprice combo to de-embed CD..it works fine de-embeding SACD and DVD-A. Is there a setting I'm missing in the Oppo menu?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 13 Jul 2011, 07:07 pm
I can't get my Oppo/Monoprice combo to de-embed CD..it works fine de-embeding SACD and DVD-A. Is there a setting I'm missing in the Oppo menu?

Oppo handles DVD-A and cd both just fine via its own optical or coax.  No reason to de-embed.  My de-embedding thread is meant for SACD and Blu-Ray, both highly protected (up until recently. as you know I now rip SACD to DSDIFF  :) ) hirez formats only available via HDMI.  CD is available anywhere digital outs are seen, and in the case of Oppo, and documented here quite a few times, DVD-Audio is available via Oppo's digital outs too.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 14 Jul 2011, 02:03 am
Ripping sacd to dsdiff - is there mac anything yet to achieve this? The obvious way to go, when it's possible.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 14 Jul 2011, 02:19 am
Ripping sacd to dsdiff - is there mac anything yet to achieve this? The obvious way to go, when it's possible.

No, it's a PS3 with 3rd party firmware...ISO rip and/or DIFF extract, or take ripped ISO and do Diff extract via Windows tool.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95396.0
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: HumanMedia on 14 Jul 2011, 06:08 am
Ripping sacd to dsdiff - is there mac anything yet to achieve this? The obvious way to go, when it's possible.

I do it in a Windows Virtual machine (running on Mac OSX).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 14 Jul 2011, 11:04 am
So, get a ps3 with right firmware.  Probably not that many to go around.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 14 Jul 2011, 01:41 pm
Please take the SACD ripping discussion over to the link I sent.  Thx
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 19 Jul 2011, 03:03 am
I am not sure of the particulars but the unit he uses to measure does have a coax input.  I'd assume (but can't be sure) that he measured it with the coax input.  At the Capital Audiofest I also spoke to the Integra rep who was using a closed-out Integra DPS 6.9 into the big pre/pro.  This is a DVD universal player.  I did read the manual and it does indicate it can output 176.4kHz.  There is less than 100 left in their warehouse.  I ordered one from my local dealer (with tax and shipping was a few dollars over $300).  I figured I could always find a place for it somewhere and it is not a horrible price.  If I find it works with the de-embedder, I may drop John Gatski a line and since he is local to me see if I can bring over the Integra and see what it outputs.  If so, I can talk to him more.  I personally could not get the Sony to work without a handshake and I thought it did not sound as good as the Oppo.

I picked up the Integra DPS-6.9 tonight and about a half hour back I ran through the set-up menu and have an SACD playing with the player going into the Port-ta de-embedder with no handshake and it registers 176.4kHz on the Bryston BDA-1 DAC.  The player is of course not broken in, and I have not done comparisons to how it sounds passing PCM vs. the BDP-83, but from what I hear, I have every reason to believe I'm getting 24/176.4kHz, especially after hearing the Sony BDP-BX37, which after I did a handshake to get it to work, took me 60 seconds to hear it was not as good as what I was getting from the BDP-83.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 19 Jul 2011, 03:39 am
btw - the Integra DPS-6.9 also has a nice display of track read-out for those interested.  You can change the color on the menu too.  I have a 19 LCD about 7 feet from the listening chair (the first pic below is the entrance to the room to show the proximity of the LCD to the chair) which I main got for DVD-A menus so I would not need to turn on the projector.  I then hooked a camera to the front door and piped it all around (I have manual switch behind the TV) so I can see if it is worthwhile to answer the door and I also have the Marantz DV9600 universal going into it (to set-up things).  The 2nd pic is a read-out of what the DPS-6.9 displays.  So far, with about 45 minutes of listening, I'm happy with it.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=19403)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48980)



Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 19 Jul 2011, 04:16 pm
I did exchange an E-Mail with John Gatski of everythingaudio.net.  He has, as noted, an Atlona HDMI de-embedder and the ATI device that reads word length.  He indicated that the Oppo (80 and 83SE) truncate the PCM word length via their SPDIF ports.  It is interesting that when I first got my Port-ta de-embedder and was verifying it could pass 192kHz, I only listened to a couple of things for a few minutes but thought that it was actually a bit better going through the de-embedder.  I talked a friend of mine into getting the de-embedder to use with his DAC vs. getting an expensive SACD player and when we were exchanging E-Mails, he noted he thought the coax output of the Oppo (he has the 83SE) was not that great and I noted to him when I tried it with my Oppo (modded BDP-83), I noticed some differences, though minor and after a very brief listen.  I attributed it to the coax output of the Oppo (and it didn't make a great difference to me as when I listened to stuff I turned on the system via the Harmony remote and selected HDMI audio where everything was going through the de-embedder) and apparently it is the word length difference.

John also indicated that he has tested the "current Sony BD, Yamaha universal and others ... and that "most truncate the word length on DSD to PCM."  As I noted, I only had a short time with the Integra right out of the box.  It did sound good and did light up 176.4kHz on the DAC via the de-embedder with no handshake.  After it breaks in and I get a chance to do more with it, I will be offer a more informed opinion and I might see if John would be willing at some point to let me bring over the Integra and test it.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: kdbrink on 20 Jul 2011, 03:07 am
Has anyone tried using the Atlona with a DirecTV box? I'm getting a lot of digital noise (sound cuts in and out) via the HDMI output from the satellite box.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: kdbrink on 27 Jul 2011, 02:34 am
Fired up my recently acquired Atlona hd577 for first time.  Mixed experience.  On DVD-A from Cambridge Audio 650bd (same mediatek chip as Oppo) went to 24/192 via hdmi & spdif co-ax, but I definitely prefer dvd-a with ca 650 as transport & spdif direct into cyrus dacx.  Tighter, more extended into bottom end, at least. We'll see if bedding in changes this over time.

Some issues - 1. then played a blue ray disc & screen had deep green all over it.  Went through all menus & couldn't see anything amiss 2. changed the hdmi cable over & then couldn't get hdmi audio out of 48khz, despite shutting down & re-setting edid.  3. then went to hdmi input 2 & reset everything again: eureka! 24/192 etc back, plus a real non-green hd image on blu-ray.

So what was that all about?  I sense instability here!  I haven't gone back to input 1 yet.  But, sacd is next - I need to get one, or more ...

I'm getting this green screen with my HD577. Anyone have any idea what's going on?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 27 Jul 2011, 08:11 am
I think I eventually figured out it was the order of power on - try bluray player on first, then atlona on second.  Good luck with its temperamental nature!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: kdbrink on 30 Jul 2011, 01:48 am
I think I eventually figured out it was the order of power on - try bluray player on first, then atlona on second.  Good luck with its temperamental nature!

Because I'm using the Atlona also as a HDMI switch, I'd like to leave it on at all times.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 7 Aug 2011, 11:05 pm
I am trying to see if I can arrange to get my Integra player over to Everything Audio Network as the DAC says 176.4kHz from SACD via the HDMI audio de-embedder and it sounds good and I want to verify it passes 24 bit vs. 16 bit.  Apparently John Gatski tests this capability as a regular part of his review.  I noted earlier about Sony players that will only pass 16 bit.  He just reviewed the Sony BDP-S1700ES (www.everythingaudio.net) and found:


“I tested the BDP-S1700ES high-resolution audio capability through the digital SPDIF and HDMI outputs by plugging the HDMI output into the Altona HDMI-to-SPDIF converter and then plugging the Altona SPDIF output into the ATI ADAC — with it visual word-length and sample-rate indicators. Using LPCM 24/96 audio tracks that I had burned to DVD-V and from AIX Records high-res audio DVD-Vs (the Sony does not play DVD-As), I found that the player would only pass 16-bit/96 kHz audio — not 24/96. And the SPDIF port spit out only 16/48; the copy-protect scheme at work again.”

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Pluto on 21 Aug 2011, 12:48 pm
Having read through this long topic with great interest, may I ask for a summary of the state of the Sony art? That is to say, where do we now stand regarding the extraction of PCM from an SACD played on a current Sony Blu-ray machine, accompanied by an Atlona HD577 de-embedder?

As I understand it, Oppo OK but only 88.2kHz. Sony, theoretically 172kHz but ???. Any other options? As I see it, with the gathering momentum and increasing availability of hi-res files, there are distinctly sensible limits to the level of investment for the "ripping SACD" project and time, for this format, seems to be rapidly running out.
Title: Should I upgrade my DAC?
Post by: efhjr on 26 Aug 2011, 04:57 pm
Wow, amazing thread!

I love listening to audio on my Oppo BDP-95. It's the best digital sound I've ever had. But thinking it could be even better is hard to ignore, especially since I have quite a few DVD-As and SACDs. I've currently got the Oppo and a Maverick Audio DAC (which only accepts up to 96 kHz, I believe).

So, I could buy a Monoprice splitter and end up with this:

Oppo --> HDMI 2 output to Monoprice 5557 splitter --> Coax into Maverick Audio DAC (only accepts up to 96 kHz)

Should I replace the Maverick with an Emotive XDA-1 to get the full, rich buttery hi-fi goodness?
Title: Re: Should I upgrade my DAC?
Post by: srb on 26 Aug 2011, 05:36 pm
Should I replace the Maverick with an Emotive XDA-1 to get the full, rich buttery hi-fi goodness?

I would wait a bit.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with the XDA-1, but I think its extra value over other DACs in its price range lies more in having remote control, balanced outputs and 1U full-width rack-mountable enclosure.  I didn't think the sound quality itself was much better than other $300 - $400 DACs.
 
There is always the promise of a better DAC for the buck around the corner that is often more marketing hype than substance, but I would at least wait for the feedback on the soon to be shipped Schiit Bifrost DAC.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Should I upgrade my DAC?
Post by: efhjr on 26 Aug 2011, 05:43 pm

There is always the promise of a better DAC for the buck around the corner that is often more marketing hype than substance, but I would at least wait for the feedback on the soon to be shipped Schiit Bifrost DAC.

Thanks for that info -- the Bifrost looks interesting. You make very good points about the Emotiva, and those are things I'm not interested in.

Just to clarify -- if I can get 192 kHz out of the Oppo, but my current DAC only accepts 96 kHz, it'll be an improvement over the RCA audio output, right? But if I get a 192-capable DAC I'll hear the full potential of the audio output?

I wonder what the Maverick would do if I fed it 192 kHz?
Title: Re: Should I upgrade my DAC?
Post by: Phil A on 26 Aug 2011, 06:26 pm
Thanks for that info -- the Bifrost looks interesting. You make very good points about the Emotiva, and those are things I'm not interested in.

Just to clarify -- if I can get 192 kHz out of the Oppo, but my current DAC only accepts 96 kHz, it'll be an improvement over the RCA audio output, right? But if I get a 192-capable DAC I'll hear the full potential of the audio output?

I wonder what the Maverick would do if I fed it 192 kHz?

For DVD-A you can get 192 from the Oppo but for SACD 88.2
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 26 Aug 2011, 06:28 pm
Having read through this long topic with great interest, may I ask for a summary of the state of the Sony art? That is to say, where do we now stand regarding the extraction of PCM from an SACD played on a current Sony Blu-ray machine, accompanied by an Atlona HD577 de-embedder?

As I understand it, Oppo OK but only 88.2kHz. Sony, theoretically 172kHz but ???. Any other options? As I see it, with the gathering momentum and increasing availability of hi-res files, there are distinctly sensible limits to the level of investment for the "ripping SACD" project and time, for this format, seems to be rapidly running out.

Welcome to the forum.  If you read the last few pages you only get 16 bit from the Sony but 24 bit from Oppo.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: kdbrink on 29 Aug 2011, 12:24 am
I just checked the Atlona site and it seems that the AT-HD577 has been discontinued and "replaced" by the AT-HD570. I wonder if they got tired of tech support inquiries about green screens.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 29 Aug 2011, 01:01 am
There are also a couple of other choices no one has talked about that I recall:


http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=hae100pr

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/627261-REG/Kramer_FC_46_FC_46_HDMI_Audio_De_Embedder.html



Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Pluto on 31 Aug 2011, 10:41 am
Welcome to the forum.  If you read the last few pages you only get 16 bit from the Sony but 24 bit from Oppo.
Thank you for that. And my next question in trying to cut to the core of this monster thread concerns...

...the differences between the Atlona and Monoprice de-embedders. OK - the Monoprice unit does not incorporate the ability to remember and subsequently "synthesize" an HDMI endpoint but what is the real-world implication of this?

If I get an Oppo player (thanks for reminding me about the 16/24 bit thing) and Monoprice de-embedder, will this do the job or is there more besides?

I'm grateful for your indulgence - I'm seeking clarity from this huge thread while seeking to achieve what, in an ideal world, ought to be a simple task!
:duh:
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 31 Aug 2011, 03:25 pm
I use a BDP-83 in the main system with the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder and it requires no handshake.  I also have and am currently using (and hope to have it eventually tested for 24 bit vs. 16 bit, an Integra DPS-6.9 universal.  It is an old DVD universal and is being closed out.  The DAC registers 176.4kHz and it requires no handshake.  There are not many left and if it is confirmed I am getting 24 bit, I'll try to get one for the secondary basement system.  The Sony I have required a handshake to work with the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder and I currently have it in the office system for Blu-Ray and passing DSD to a Pioneer 1120 receiver.  I have to re-visit the Oppo BDP-93 again at some point.  It is in the bedroom system not hooked to the de-embedder.  When I briefly had it there I could not get it to output sound via the de-embedder and I probably have to try alternative settings.  I have an old Oppo DV980H in the secondary basement hooked to the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder as well.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Pluto on 1 Sep 2011, 07:17 am
I use a BDP-83 in the main system with the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder and it requires no handshake

...I have to re-visit the Oppo BDP-93 again at some point...I could not get it to output sound via the de-embedder and I probably have to try alternative settings.

Would appreciate further analysis of this aspect. I'm surprised that there appears to be any functional difference between two Oppo units of such similar vintage.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Marius on 1 Sep 2011, 08:03 am
HI,

Bluecoast offers SACD downloads in Dsdiff format. Any thought on how to play these files through my BDA directly or is that not possible? http://bluecoastrecords.com/dsd-info (http://bluecoastrecords.com/dsd-info) Would like to skip the Disc-burning now that I have the BDP1...

Marius
sorry if this has been discussed already or elsewhere, please point me to that then...I'll ask on the Bryston forum also.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 1 Sep 2011, 12:04 pm
Would appreciate further analysis of this aspect. I'm surprised that there appears to be any functional difference between two Oppo units of such similar vintage.

Someone told me I may just have to set the HDMI output to PCM on the BDP-93.  I had the 93 in the main system for a few weeks (but never tried it with the de-embedder at that point) when I first got it and then decided to take it out of the bedroom system and try it with the HDMI audio de-embedder to see if I could use both HDMI outs (one going to the pre/pro and one to the de-embedder) and not swap HDMI cables (which is not a huge deal as I have the cable going to the pre/pro just sitting behind it).  I don't recall what combinations of settings I tried.  The BDP-83 was never an issue.  I just plugged in the cable to the de-embedder and got sound.  I hope to get the Integra DPS 6.9 tested before the end of September.  I know I get 176.4kHz and it sounds great but I want to confirm I'm getting 24 bit vs. 16 bit.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 1 Sep 2011, 01:28 pm
HI,

Bluecoast offers SACD downloads in Dsdiff format. Any thought on how to play these files through my BDA directly or is that not possible? http://bluecoastrecords.com/dsd-info (http://bluecoastrecords.com/dsd-info) Would like to skip the Disc-burning now that I have the BDP1...

Marius
sorry if this has been discussed already or elsewhere, please point me to that then...I'll ask on the Bryston forum also.

Marius,
This is an HDMi de-embedder thread.  I'd be happy to discuss on another thread. (BDP won't play native DIFF files, must be converted to PCM as I do all my SACD rips....see SACD rip with PS3 thread)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Marius on 1 Sep 2011, 01:43 pm
Sorry for that, did not realize because of the thread title....no mention of HDMI or deembedder there  :scratch:

since diff files are sacd (that's what Blue Coast states) I thought to be on topic. Again, sorry for being off-topic.

I did see the PS3 thread, just thought to see another option. Apparently not   :cry:

Greets,
Marius

Marius,
This is an HDMi de-embedder thread.  I'd be happy to discuss on another thread. (BDP won't play native DIFF files, must be converted to PCM as I do all my SACD rips....see SACD rip with PS3 thread)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 1 Sep 2011, 01:54 pm
No problem, sorry for the title..  Back when this started it was the ONLY option.  SACD ripping was not invented yet (thanks Mr Wicked).  I'm now doing nothing but ripping.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Marius on 1 Sep 2011, 02:04 pm
;-)
time flies when your having fun.
are there any pictures for that setup? or Schemes? I'll check the topic again, but there's a lot of it, so if you could point me to those?

Marius

No problem, sorry for the title..  Back when this started it was the ONLY option.  SACD ripping was not invented yet (thanks Mr Wicked).  I'm now doing nothing but ripping.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 1 Sep 2011, 02:08 pm
I'm in the midst of developing a primer, with screen shots.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Marius on 1 Sep 2011, 02:18 pm
great, got it on Notify now.

Thanks,
Marius

I'm in the midst of developing a primer, with screen shots.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Claude on 18 Sep 2011, 02:00 pm
Thanks Ted for this great thread.

I have a two questions (to everybody):

1. Has anyone successfully used the procedure with the Oppo 93? Which de-embedder was used?

2. Has anyone compared the quality of the Oppo DSD-PCM conversion with the Foobar SACD plugin conversion (by playing a PS3 SACD rip on the PC and burned to DVD-R on the Oppo)? Both do DSD --> 24/88, so it would be interesting to know if there are differences.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 18 Sep 2011, 02:05 pm


2. Has anyone compared the quality of the Oppo DSD-PCM conversion with the Foobar SACD plugin conversion (by playing a PS3 SACD rip on the PC and burned to DVD-R on the Oppo)? Both do DSD --> 24/88, so it would be interesting to know if there are differences.

Thanks.

No, but I've ripped almost 60 SACD's so far via PS3 and the resultant DIFF-to-PCM conversion (via Audiogate or Saracon) is quite a bit better than the de-embedder.  I still think the biggest issue is jitter via HDMI, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 18 Sep 2011, 02:53 pm
Yes - HDMI has jitter.  A portion of it can be eliminated if your DAC re-clocks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 23 Sep 2011, 10:26 pm
I finally managed to make it over to John Gatski's place of everythingaudio.net to test my Integra DPS-6.9 (non-Blu-Ray) universal player.  I knew it did 176.4kHz from my DAC from SACD but it does truncate word length to 16 bit with SACD and everything else.  He had an Oppo BDP-80 hooked to the de-embedder so we could swap in and out the same discs.  I believe except for Oppo players, everything he has tested truncates to 16 bits.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Quiet Earth on 23 Sep 2011, 11:20 pm
Interesting. I'm wondering if there is a consensus on how good the actual DSD to PCM conversion is in many of the players that are available as SACD transports.  And, if the conversion process itself is the biggest obstacle in getting really good sound out of the SACD format.

I saw a post made by HumanMedia (on AA) that said,  "Keep in mind that the on-the-fly PCM conversion of most players is VERY rough and flawed. For example at least one Sony player adds noise to the PCM signal (even in areas where there is digital silence) and the Oppo players add excessive gain and the PCM signal clips."

I would like to learn more about that if I can.

FWIW, I recently purchased one of the HDMI de-embedders and a few SACDs. I am using an Oppo BDP-83 for the transport and my DAC will lock onto the 88.2kHz coming out of the de-embedder. (It does truncate to 18 bits however.) It sounds pretty good to me so far, but I need to buy some more SACDs to get a feeling for whether or not it is a big improvement over a well done CD.

It is certainly fun though!  :thumb:

(Still learning . . .  :thumb: )



Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jjc1 on 24 Sep 2011, 02:48 am
Interesting. I'm wondering if there is a consensus on how good the actual DSD to PCM conversion is in many of the players that are available as SACD transports.  And, if the conversion process itself is the biggest obstacle in getting really good sound out of the SACD format.

I saw a post made by HumanMedia (on AA) that said,  "Keep in mind that the on-the-fly PCM conversion of most players is VERY rough and flawed. For example at least one Sony player adds noise to the PCM signal (even in areas where there is digital silence) and the Oppo players add excessive gain and the PCM signal clips."

I would like to learn more about that if I can.

FWIW, I recently purchased one of the HDMI de-embedders and a few SACDs. I am using an Oppo BDP-83 for the transport and my DAC will lock onto the 88.2kHz coming out of the de-embedder. (It does truncate to 18 bits however.) It sounds pretty good to me so far, but I need to buy some more SACDs to get a feeling for whether or not it is a big improvement over a well done CD.

It is certainly fun though!  :thumb:

(Still learning . . .  :thumb: )




     I am using an older OPPO 970H as a transport with a de-embedder thru theBryston BDA1 and the sound of SACD is very good. I also have the BDP1 which has excellent sound but I was so impressed by the OPPO, DE-embeeder and BDA that I just bought some more SACDs.  I never thought I would buy another CD after listening to the BDP1.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 24 Sep 2011, 03:30 am
John Gatski of everythingaudio.net uses an ATI ADAC2 to test the output of players - http://www.atiaudio.com//files/pdf/ATI%20ADAC-2%20Brochure%20033009.pdf

If one is testing by other certain other methods (this is a very long thread and it has been discussed) you can get bad bit rate reading.  The BDP-83 does 24 bit.  John has tested it.  He had a BDP-80 on his kitchen table set-up with the Atlona de-embedder and a portable DVD player for screen set-up and we tried a variety of discs.  I have a BDP-93 in the bedroom system.  It also does 24 bit.  I have an old Oppo DV-980 in the basement system which also will do 24 bit.  I'd love to get an ATI ADAC2.  I do use a one-third octave RTA for room set-up which wasn't what most people would define as cheap but it is cheap vs. the ATI ADAC2 which is $1.5k list (streets for about 10% off of that).

I may hook both my DV980H and the Integra in the secondary basement system to the de-embedder (assuming I can find rack space for it).  I also might try moving the BDP-93 to the main system.  Last time I briefly tried it, I was not able to get it to work with de-embedder but I did not try every combo of settings.  If I was able to have one HDMI output going to the de-embedder and one going to the processor it would save swapping cables (when I watch a Blu-Ray) but it is a simple process and not hard to get to.

John Gatski indicated he is getting a BDP-1 for review and while I am not quite ready, I eagerly await his analysis.  He does what he does for a long time and has equipment like the ATI ADAC2 that allows him to tell it like it is.  I looked all around for cheaper alternative and apparently they don't exist.  There are other brands that do what the ATI unit does like Drawmer but they cost about the same.  I did find a under $100 sampling frequency read-out device but nothing that can do what I'd like.

Ted has interesting stuff going on the PS3 and ripping SACDs.  I do have one in the secondary basement system that basically at this point I am not using.  It is there for back-up when and if my old Samsung 2500 can't read a particular disc but the Samsung is probably not going to stay long term, particularly if I end up going 3D in the secondary basement system with a new projector.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Claude on 29 Nov 2011, 09:17 am
1. Has anyone successfully used the procedure with the Oppo 93? Which de-embedder was used?

I'm pushing this thread to repeat the question if someone has done this with an Oppo 93 or 95. Some posts above indicated that there might be a difference between the Oppo 83 and the 93 in that respect.

I just discovered that the Oppo 93 does only output 24/48 maximum through S/PDIF when playing Blu-ray discs (while there is no such limitation for DVD-A). I have a couple of Naxos Blu-ray Audio discs with 24/96 sound that I would like to hear in full resolution through my DAC (Electrocompaniet ECD-1). So this would be another reason to try the de-embedder route.

Thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Claude on 29 Nov 2011, 10:09 am
I'm also quoting this old post, which apperently has not been answered yet. I also have no HDMI home theatre receiver, the only HDMI receiving devices being two TVs (Samsung and Sony) and a Samsung computer monitor (which accepts audio, as it has an analogue output).

Does the de-embedder procedure require a handshake with a HDMI device capable of accepting a 24/88 PCM signal in order to work with an Oppo?

Super interesting circle, this is just what I was looking for.

My TV only accepts up to 48 kHz sample rate as input over HDMI. It does accept 24 bits though. As far as I understand, this means that I will get the benefit of 24 bits, but not get any higher sample rate (88/176/192) by using the Atlona or the Porta/Monoprice boxes, because the TV will do the HDMI handshake and limit the sample rate to 48 kHz.

I checked the newest TV models from Sony and Samsung, and they have exactly the same spec. So this problem would likely apply to most people trying to use such a solution with a TV. I don't have a HT receiver, only a 2 channel stereo where I'd like to get high def sound from SACD and Bluray played on PS3 into my Hegel HD10 DAC.

Is it worth it to get the $40 Monoprice box in order to increase bit rate from 16 to 24? How important is the increased sample rate versus the increased bit rate in HD sound?

What would be the best solutions out there to get 192 kHz also, or at least 88 kHz? I guess I could get the Atlona 577 or the Monoprice + Grefen detective, and then go to a local shop to capture the EDID of a receiver which accepts 192/24. I think this could work with SACD, but with Bluray I need the TV to be connected through HDMI to get the picture, and then I fear the TV would interfere in the handshake and still limit the sample rate to 48 kHz.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 29 Nov 2011, 11:31 am
Long thread but the prior question has been answered.  My Oppo BDP-83 requires no handshake with the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jjc1 on 29 Nov 2011, 05:17 pm
Neither does  my OPPO 970h require a handshake.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: AVnerdguy on 29 Nov 2011, 05:35 pm
I'm pushing this thread to repeat the question if someone has done this with an Oppo 93 or 95. Some posts above indicated that there might be a difference between the Oppo 83 and the 93 in that respect.

I just discovered that the Oppo 93 does only output 24/48 maximum through S/PDIF when playing Blu-ray discs (while there is no such limitation for DVD-A). I have a couple of Naxos Blu-ray Audio discs with 24/96 sound that I would like to hear in full resolution through my DAC (Electrocompaniet ECD-1). So this would be another reason to try the de-embedder route.

Thanks

I've tried it with the 93 but was unsuccessful. I followed all of the procedures from the posts to no avail. Then I started experimenting. After many hours I had to quit. I tried briefly again when the frustration level died down but no satisfactory results. That was a few months ago. I recently picked up some new gear (BDP-1/BDA-1, AVA 600R, and upped my DSL to 12Mbps) and I will be back in the rack installing equipment so I started researching again. I have 2 weeks off for the holidays so I'll have plenty of time to experiment.  I will have done more research by then and hopefully I will get favorable results. If I get this resolevd I'll post.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 30 Nov 2011, 02:09 am
I'm pushing this thread to repeat the question if someone has done this with an Oppo 93 or 95. Some posts above indicated that there might be a difference between the Oppo 83 and the 93 in that respect.

I have successfully used a de-embedder with the 83SE and now with a 95.  Now that I can rip my DVD-As and SACDs to hi-rez, using the de-embedder with the physical disc seems like a bit of a downgrade to me.  I use the USB ports on my 95 to play 24 bit (88.2/176.4) FLAC files directly into my WFS DAC-2.  Greatness...all my DVD-As have been ripped for awhile now -- and I cannot rip my SACD discs quick enough.

If you're contemplating an 83SE vs. a 95, grab the 95.  I happen to have an 83SE that I'll sell if anyone would rather have it.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Claude on 30 Nov 2011, 10:56 am
Thanks to all of you.

@AVnerdguy and djmckaytx:

Which de-embedder have you been using with your Oppo 93/95? It seems that not every player/de-embedder combination is working.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 30 Nov 2011, 11:37 am
I've tried it with the 93 but was unsuccessful. I followed all of the procedures from the posts to no avail. Then I started experimenting. After many hours I had to quit. I tried briefly again when the frustration level died down but no satisfactory results. That was a few months ago. I recently picked up some new gear (BDP-1/BDA-1, AVA 600R, and upped my DSL to 12Mbps) and I will be back in the rack installing equipment so I started researching again. I have 2 weeks off for the holidays so I'll have plenty of time to experiment.  I will have done more research by then and hopefully I will get favorable results. If I get this resolevd I'll post.

I had trouble and was not able to get it to work with my BDP-93 (which I have in the bedroom system).  I have no trouble with the 83 in the main system nor with the DV980H I have in the basement system (which I also use with a de-embedder.  I may at some point revisit the 93 (usually when I dust it is a good time :green:)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 1 Dec 2011, 12:00 am
Thanks to all of you.

@AVnerdguy and djmckaytx:

Which de-embedder have you been using with your Oppo 93/95? It seems that not every player/de-embedder combination is working.

I'm using the Atlona (577 if memory serves).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jjc1 on 1 Dec 2011, 06:09 pm
I have successfully used a de-embedder with the 83SE and now with a 95.  Now that I can rip my DVD-As and SACDs to hi-rez, using the de-embedder with the physical disc seems like a bit of a downgrade to me.  I use the USB ports on my 95 to play 24 bit (88.2/176.4) FLAC files directly into my WFS DAC-2.  Greatness...all my DVD-As have been ripped for awhile now -- and I cannot rip my SACD discs quick enough.

If you're contemplating an 83SE vs. a 95, grab the 95.  I happen to have an 83SE that I'll sell if anyone would rather have it.  Hope this helps.
  I assume you rip SACDs with a Play Station? From what I've read here, it seems that is the only way.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: AVnerdguy on 1 Dec 2011, 06:20 pm
Thanks to all of you.

@AVnerdguy and djmckaytx:

Which de-embedder have you been using with your Oppo 93/95? It seems that not every player/de-embedder combination is working.
I have the Altona AT-HD570. It was the current version when I purchased - about 6 mo. ago I believe.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 1 Dec 2011, 06:43 pm
Since I started this thread i thought I ought to tell you why I have been responding less and less.

I have been 100% dedicated to the Mr Wicked project (I am a beta tester) of doing true SACD DSDIFF and ISO ripping.  It uses the PS3 as per my other threads about it.  I have completed version 1.2 of a word doc or pdf that walks you through "SACD ripping For Dummies".  i'll send it to anyone who needs it.  PM me your email addy.

I am evaluating the Mytek DSD DAC.  I'll write up soon.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 2 Dec 2011, 08:54 pm
  I assume you rip SACDs with a Play Station? From what I've read here, it seems that is the only way.

That's correct.  I have invested in 2 PS3s that can do the job (now carefully maintained and cooled).  The sound is greatness...much better than de-embedding.  You can get the details from ted_b if you're interested.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: djmckaytx on 2 Dec 2011, 08:56 pm
I have been 100% dedicated to the Mr Wicked project (I am a beta tester) of doing true SACD DSDIFF and ISO ripping.  It uses the PS3 as per my other threads about it.  I have completed version 1.2 of a word doc or pdf that walks you through "SACD ripping For Dummies".  i'll send it to anyone who needs it.  PM me your email addy.

Really appreciate everyone's hard work on this.  It is a dream come true for me...really.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: donny619 on 2 Dec 2011, 11:41 pm
Thank you everyone that has contributed to this post. Has anyone tried Gefen's product equivalent to this thread?

http://www.gefen.com/gefentv/gtvproduct.jsp?prod_id=8202

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/include/prod_html/closeup/gtv-auddec-closeup.shtml

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: natf on 28 Feb 2012, 06:53 pm
Hello to all! This is my first post here....

My setup is: OPPO BDP-83, DAC Zhaolu D2.5C, preamplifier Rotel RC-980BX and so on.

I carefully read all this thread and it seems to me that:

1. With the Monoprice de-embedder I can obtain on its digital output port up to 24/192 with DVD-Audio and 24/88.2 with SACD
2. With OPPO BDP-83 the Monoprice doesn't need a device connected on the HDMI output port for handshaking and it sounds even better with no device attached
3. The Monoprice sounds better if 5.1 audio is selected on it

Is this all right?

Now I have some questions for you:
1. What kind of HDMI cable should I use to connect OPPO and Monoprice? A 1.4 compliant cable should be good for this? Is an HDMI cable with audio return channel required for better working?
2. My DAC seems to be able to directly decode DSD streams in input; did someone try to avoid DSD2PCM internal OPPO conversion and try to de-embed a DSD stream instead of a PCM stream in input to the Monoprice? does it works?
3. I would like to mantain a direct connection between OPPO and the DAC, for audio CDs and for DVD-Audio. Provided that my DAC has a coax input and a toslink input which combination should be better (toslink from Monoprice to DAC and coax from OPPO to DAC or the opposite)? I'm asking this because Phil stated that coax out from OPPO has PCM word length truncated
4. What are the best settings on OPPO? I was thinking of Secondary audio set to off, HDMI audio set to auto, SACD out set to DSD (in order to try to de-embed DSD streams)

Many thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jacobacci on 1 Mar 2012, 02:00 pm
Hi all, also my first post here.
I have been trying to get audio deembedding (Atlona 570) to work for a few days now and I have not been very successful.
My setup is as follows:

Oppo BDP 83 -> Atlona HD570 -> Weiss DAC202

As the Oppo 83 apparently needs a HDMI end device to handshake with, I have bought a Gefen HDMI Detective Plus, as I don't have an AVR in my audio only system.

I have tried the following:

If my Onkyo SC5507 AVR is connected after the Atlona, everything works fine. The Oppo handshakes and the Atlona outputs 88.2khz over Toslink to the DAC.

If I remove the Onkyo and put the Gefen in its place, no sound at all. I have programmed the Onkyo's EDID into the Gefen (using the procedure in the Gefen manual and getting all the correct blinking and permanent LED signals). I have also tried programming on of the Gefen's preprogrammed EDIDs into memory. But no joy. The Atlona is staying silent.

I have tried putting the Gefen the other way around (HDMI in / out). Still silent.

Has anyone got this setup to work?
Much appreciate any support.
Thanks a lot and regards from Switzerland

Rudi
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jacobacci on 2 Mar 2012, 07:17 am
Thought I had it solved, but not quite.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 2 Mar 2012, 01:10 pm
I use the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder with a BDP-83 and don't need a handshake.  I've also used the de-embedder with an old Oppo DV980H in the secondary basement system and do not need a handshake.  I've not been able to get the BDP-93 to work under the same circumstances, although I have not exhausted every combination.  I have the BDP-93 in the secondary basement system and at some point I'll experiment more.  It's not a big deal in the basement system as I have the BDP-93 going into an Onkyo 1008 so if it needs a handshake I can always try the second HDMI out.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: natf on 2 Mar 2012, 01:23 pm
I use the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder with a BDP-83 and don't need a handshake.  I've also used the de-embedder with an old Oppo DV980H in the secondary basement system and do not need a handshake.  I've not been able to get the BDP-93 to work under the same circumstances, although I have not exhausted every combination.  I have the BDP-93 in the secondary basement system and at some point I'll experiment more.  It's not a big deal in the basement system as I have the BDP-93 going into an Onkyo 1008 so if it needs a handshake I can always try the second HDMI out.

Hello Phil, I would appreciate some help from you regarding my questions.... Can you help me please? Expecially about choosing the best connections between OPPO, Monoprice and the DAC.
Thanks again
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dminches on 2 Mar 2012, 02:04 pm
I couldn't get it to work with the BDP-95 either.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 3 Mar 2012, 01:26 am
Hello Phil, I would appreciate some help from you regarding my questions.... Can you help me please? Expecially about choosing the best connections between OPPO, Monoprice and the DAC.
Thanks again

You don't need an HDMI 1.4 cable (all it really gives you is ethernet from end to end).  I'm use a short Pangea HDMI cable I got at Audio Advisor.  Seems to work well and not tons of money.  I've not taken a DSD stream with either the main system DAC (Bryston) or basement system DAC (Emotiva) as they don't decode DSD.  I prefer coax to toslink from the de-embedder.  I have the coax output of the BDP-83 in the main system and the BDP-93 in the basement system connected to the DAC.  In the main system I prefer my Marantz DV9600 (DVD universal) as a CD transport.  I have a modded BDP-83 in the main system and while there are positives and negatives, I prefer using the de-embedder into the DAC and then the preamp (Modwright LS36.5 DM).

Here's a checklist for the BDP-83 with default settings - http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-83_Settings_Checklist.pdf
For audio, I have secondary audio off and of course the LPCM rate to 192k
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 3 Mar 2012, 01:31 am
I couldn't get it to work with the BDP-95 either.

At some point I'll try the BDP-93 in the basement system and try the handshake on HDMI 1 to the Onkyo 1008.  I'd like to know as I'm thinking about moving in a couple of years and may end up using the Onkyo as a HT processor and use the built in amps for the height channels and back channels.  I'd like to be able to have just something like one player for hi-rez and Blu-Ray.  I'm kind of in the very beginning stages of looking at things down the road.  With my thinking now, I'm going to be simplifying the main system a bit.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jacobacci on 3 Mar 2012, 04:35 am
Thanks to the friendly folks at Gefen Switzerland, the problem has been solved for me.
The Gefen HDMI Detective Plus does NOT work. The Gefen GTV-HDMI-2-HDMIAUD-CO HDMI to HDMI Plus Audio Converter DOES.
The issue seems to have been that the Oppo BDP-83 imperatively needs an HDCP capable HDMI endpoint in order to handshake. EDID alone is not sufficient. This condition was fulfilled with the Onkyo connected, but not with the HDMI Detective Plus connected. The Detective supplied the correct EDID, but not the HDCP endpoint.
The HDMI to HDMI Plus Audio Converter seems to reliably supply the HDCP endpoint without anything else connected to its output.
I had not been aware about the EDID and HDCP issues being totally separated and independent. The guys at geffen were the first to explain this to me clearly and to propose a solution that solves the issue at the root of the problem.
Using the Oppo 83 as source, the Berkeley Alpha DAC reports 88.2khz/24bit.
Using the Sony S770 as source, the Berkeley Alpha DAC reports 176.4khz/24bit.
Finally I can deembed SACD in my audio only system. THANKS
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 3 Mar 2012, 11:51 am
I did not see bit depth on the Berkeley Alpha DAC.  The Sony 70 series truncates it to 16 bit.  The BDP-83 does not require a handshake with the Port-ta/Monoprice de-embedder.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: zootallures on 3 Mar 2012, 10:36 pm
Hello everybody. First post here as well.

Here's a report on what has worked for me, and what hasn't. BTW, I'm a 2-channel guy and don't have any surround equipment. My initial intent was to use an Oppo BDP-93 as a SACD transport and run the signal to an outboard DAC.

I just received/hooked up my Monoprice HDMI 4-Port Switcher–Product-ID 5557 yesterday and have had but an hour or two to test things. I have the HDMI-2 out from my Oppo BDP-93 to the 5557, then take the 5557's coax-out to a digital coax-in on a Cambridge 840C. The 840C lists the digital-in's bit depth/sample rates on its' screen.

What the setup can do:
• Output 24/88.2 from physical SACD disks via the 5557
• Output up to 24/96 from physical DVD-A disks via the 5557
• Output 24/88.2 and 24/96 FLAC files that reside on a USB flash drive via the 5557

What the setup can't do:
• Output 24/192 from physical DVD-A disks via the 5557
• Output 24/192 FLAC files that reside on a USB flash drive via the 5557

When 24/192 files/disks are attempted, the 840C doesn't see a valid signal and I get mostly silence with occasional "bits" trying to break through. However, these occasional sounds tell me that the 840C is receiving some sort of signal.

Since the 840C has no trouble receiving the 24/192 signal via the Oppo's own coax-out when playing DVD-A's or USB-residing files (and the fact that the 840C has two digital inputs) it doesn't bother me too much, as I only need to select input 1 or 2 on the 840C depending on what I'm trying to play.

When I first hooked up the 5557, I did take one of its HDMI outs and plugged it into my Samsung HDTV plasma (in place of the Oppo's HDMI-1 cable). Afterwards, I totally removed the HDMI cable from the 5557 and replaced the Oppo's HDMI-1 cable to the plasma. It does not seem to need it anymore. Since I did not initially attempt to hook it up without the 5557-to-HDTV connection/handshake, I cannot comment as to its necessity (sorry).

The only thing I may be missing are higher SACD rates (I'm new to hi-res, so I don't even know what the typical recording rates might be) or 24/192 blu-ray material. I don't have any verifiable blu-ray material to test at this point however.

I would like to solve the playing of higher-rate SACD's or 24/192 material via the 5557. When time permits, I'll definitely need to read through this entire thread. Thanks everybody... for being part of this great discussion.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: zootallures on 3 Mar 2012, 11:49 pm
This post has been deleted by the author.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: zootallures on 4 Mar 2012, 02:18 am
My initial post above has been corrected.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 4 Mar 2012, 03:31 am
I assume you mean Monoprice Product ID 5557?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 4 Mar 2012, 04:21 am

When 24/192 files/disks are attempted, the 840C doesn't see a valid signal and I get mostly silence with occasional "bits" trying to break through. However, these occasional sounds tell me that the 840C is receiving some sort of signal.

The only thing I may be missing are higher SACD rates (I'm new to hi-res, so I don't even know what the typical recording rates might be) or 24/192 blu-ray material. I don't have any verifiable blu-ray material to test at this point however.

I would like to solve the playing of higher-rate SACD's or 24/192 material via the 5777.

All SACD's are output as 24/88k by the Oppo BDP93 so you are good to go there.
I also had similar issues with the Cambridge 840C DAC inputs that will not lock on the output of the Monoprice box when fed 192khz sampling rates.
Just like you I tried inputing the Oppo coax output into the Cambridge and it will lock/play 24/192k content (all I tried were DVD-A discs).

Since that time I aquired a Bryston BDA-1 DAC that has no problem with the 24/192k output from the Monoprice de-embedder but for most content use the coax out from the Oppo. The Oppo coax limits to 48khz when playing Blu Ray audio content but the de-embedder works fine for that also...

P.S. I never had any issue with the Oppo/Monoprice box connected without a handshake from TV (Oppo outout on HDMI 1 with Monoprice  HDMI output not connected). Must be a setup issue with the Oppo or could be when both HDMI outputs are used ??

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jacobacci on 4 Mar 2012, 08:49 am
@zootallures:
The conversion from DSD (on the SACD) to LPCM is done differently by different players, as they use different chipsets. I use the Oppo 83 and the Sony S770 in my setup. Deembedding is done with a Gefen box (a few posts up).
The Oppo converts DSD to 88.2khz/24bit. The Sony converts to 176.4khz. There is an open debate, whether the Sony outputs 16 or 24bit. My Berkeley Alpha DAC shows 24bit, others have determined it is 16bit (maybe padded with 0s to 24bit?).
Some people are of the view that the conversion quality of the Oppo is substantially better than that of the Sony (even though it is only 88.2khz). I am fairly new at actually using this, and I haven't been able to really compare the quality.

@moderator: With all the user experience that has been acquired with different setups, would it be good to pull together a table of what works and how and make that a sticky? Also a poll on the quality differences would be great.

Thanks
Rudi
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 4 Mar 2012, 02:01 pm
All SACD's are output as 24/88k by the Oppo BDP93 so you are good to go there.
I also had similar issues with the Cambridge 840C DAC inputs that will not lock on the output of the Monoprice box when fed 192khz sampling rates.
Just like you I tried inputing the Oppo coax output into the Cambridge and it will lock/play 24/192k content (all I tried were DVD-A discs).

Since that time I aquired a Bryston BDA-1 DAC that has no problem with the 24/192k output from the Monoprice de-embedder but for most content use the coax out from the Oppo. The Oppo coax limits to 48khz when playing Blu Ray audio content but the de-embedder works fine for that also...

P.S. I never had any issue with the Oppo/Monoprice box connected without a handshake from TV (Oppo outout on HDMI 1 with Monoprice  HDMI output not connected). Must be a setup issue with the Oppo or could be when both HDMI outputs are used ??

Todd
Todd - would you mind sharing your settings (and connections) on the BDP-93 that enable it to work without a handshake.  I have not exhausted all combinations but have not gotten mine to work with no handshake (have not even tried it with a handshake).  I've had the BDP-83 for a bit and never had an issue.  When I try the BDP-93 in its place, it just has not worked so far.  Some have had the same issue with the BDP-95.  Thanks
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 4 Mar 2012, 02:06 pm
The Sony converts to 176.4khz. There is an open debate, whether the Sony outputs 16 or 24bit. My Berkeley Alpha DAC shows 24bit, others have determined it is 16bit (maybe padded with 0s to 24bit?).


Thanks
Rudi

Rudi - I looked at the page on the Berkeley Alpha DAC and did not see where bit depth is displayed (only sampling frequency).  John Gatski of everythingaudio.net has tested many of the players including the Sonys and they only output 16 bit.  He has an ATI ADAC2 which shows bit depth.  I've brought one of my players over his house (my Integra - which does 176.4 and sounds worlds better than the Sony I have which will only work with a handshake and the Integra only does 16 bit.)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jacobacci on 4 Mar 2012, 05:27 pm
Phil,
You are absolutely right. Sorry, I misread the 1.24 reading in the display as being filter 1 and 24bit, but reading the manual I see the 24 has nothing to do with bitdepth. Clear case of RTFM.
Have the tests by John Gatski confirmed the Oppo to be 24bit? Overall which player do you (and others of course) think to be the best sounding?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 4 Mar 2012, 05:51 pm
Phil,
You are absolutely right. Sorry, I misread the 1.24 reading in the display as being filter 1 and 24bit, but reading the manual I see the 24 has nothing to do with bitdepth. Clear case of RTFM.
Have the tests by John Gatski confirmed the Oppo to be 24bit? Overall which player do you (and others of course) think to be the best sounding?

Yes - John has confirmed the 24 bit from the Oppo players.  When I was over his house (probably around the end of last summer) to test my Integra DPS6.9 (which sounded really good to me - had heard it at the Capital Audiofest last July and the Integra room was next to the EverythingAudio.net room and I figured I could also use it somewhere so I grabbed one on close-out - it is HDMI 1.2 and the manual just says 176.kHz) he had an Oppo BDP80 set-up with the Atlona de-embedder on his kitchen table and I was able to see first hand.  He has tested many of the players and so far only the Oppo passes 24 bits. 

Unfortunately the ATI ADAC2 (http://www.atiaudio.com//product.aspx?id=96) costs around $1.5k (kind if expensive for a hobbyist and John Gatski uses a Benchmark DAC and told me the ADAC2 is just OK for music playback - nothing special) and I've done extensive searches and the only other thing that apparently does something similar I could find (I'm sure there are mega buck things that can do it) was made by Drawmer and was around the same price point (each unit can do up to 192kHz).

He (John) probably has not tested things like the Arcam DV137 and DV139 (DVD universals like my Integra) but has tested most other things.  I almost considered grabbing one of the DV137s on close-out but it was around double what the Integra ran me ($300) and at the price point of the Integra it was a no brainer as I can find a use for it somewhere as I have a fair amount of SACDs and DVD-As. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 4 Mar 2012, 06:05 pm
Phil,
You are absolutely right. Sorry, I misread the 1.24 reading in the display as being filter 1 and 24bit, but reading the manual I see the 24 has nothing to do with bitdepth. Clear case of RTFM.
Have the tests by John Gatski confirmed the Oppo to be 24bit? Overall which player do you (and others of course) think to be the best sounding?

Rudi, I use a Bryston DAC in the main system and have an Emotiva in the secondary basement system.  I have a bunch of players capable of being used with the de-embedder including a Sony BDP-BX37 (same as the 370), Integra DPS6.9, Oppo DV980H, (modded - mainly for analog but it has a different clock than the stock) BDP83 and I have a BDP93 which I have not gotten to work yet.  I have not tried all combos in all systems.  For a bit, I had the 980H in the bedroom system without a de-embedder into a Marantz SR6003 where I tried passing both DSD and converting to PCM.  The Marrantz was good on both and from limited listening could not tell much of a difference at all.  Overall, I'd say that the BDP83 is a bit better transport than the DV980H and the Sony was probably at the bottom.  The Integra, even though it only does 16 bit (but 176.4kHz) is probably pretty close to the DV980H.  I'd like to get the BDP-93 working with the de-embedder.  I swap out HDMI cables when I want to use the BDP-83 for a movie and I have another cable sitting there than goes to the pre/pro.  The transport on the BDP93 seems a bit smoother than the BDP83.  At some point I'd like to have more things, including hi-rez, digitized (been looking for the right PS3 off and on to rip - see the thread about the PS3).  I was retired at one point for almost 6 years and hopefully in a bit over two, it will be for good.  It will allow me the time I need to consider a move and also do more with audio.  I always have a backlog of music to listen to (including SACDs - and have another one the way from CD Japan). 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: zootallures on 4 Mar 2012, 08:00 pm
Phil—
Yes, I meant the Monoprice Product-ID 5557. Sorry for the confusion.

Todd—
Thanks for your input. I too believe that there's no need for a handshake with the Oppo BDP-93/Monoprice 5557/outboard DAC combo. After the removal of the HDMI-1 cabling from the Oppo to the HDTV and without any Monoprice 5557 HDMI-out cabling—plus a few shutdown/restarts in a variety of order—the setup just works with SACD, DVD-A, and USB HDD/flash drive files.

Also, IMO and with regards to my system, SACD's into the 840C at 24/88.2 sound great. Deep bass, slam, tightness, sparkle, air around the instruments, staging, and overall PRAT are all there. Of course the quality of the recordings will ultimately determine these things.

I also agree that using the Oppo's own coax-out whenever you can is a good move. I suspect that removing a cable and another box from the signal path—especially when they don't do anything—has got to benefit the ultimate outcome.

Rudi—
Thanks as well. What I find strange about the 16 vs 24 bit-depth issue in my setup is that standard CDs over the HDMI/Monoprice connection show up as 24/44.1 on the 840C. However, when going directly out of the Oppo's coax into the 840C, they signal reads 16/44.1. As a matter of fact, when I first turn everything on—and without any shiny disc in the Oppo or USB device connected—the 840C reads 24/44.1 from the Monoprice input. Do either of these units (Oppo or Monoprice) automatically resample any signal over HDMI to 24 bit or, perhaps, does this have to do with some sort of HDMI spec?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 4 Mar 2012, 09:55 pm

Rudi—
Thanks as well. What I find strange about the 16 vs 24 bit-depth issue in my setup is that standard CDs over the HDMI/Monoprice connection show up as 24/44.1 on the 840C. However, when going directly out of the Oppo's coax into the 840C, they signal reads 16/44.1. As a matter of fact, when I first turn everything on—and without any shiny disc in the Oppo or USB device connected—the 840C reads 24/44.1 from the Monoprice input. Do either of these units (Oppo or Monoprice) automatically resample any signal over HDMI to 24 bit or, perhaps, does this have to do with some sort of HDMI spec?

I believe the upsampling is a function of going the digital input of the Cambridge unit.  It could be that the Oppo coax out it the limiting factor.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 4 Mar 2012, 11:50 pm
Todd - would you mind sharing your settings (and connections) on the BDP-93 that enable it to work without a handshake.  I have not exhausted all combinations but have not gotten mine to work with no handshake (have not even tried it with a handshake).  I've had the BDP-83 for a bit and never had an issue.  When I try the BDP-93 in its place, it just has not worked so far.  Some have had the same issue with the BDP-95.  Thanks

I only have used HDMI #1 on the BDP-93 so start there.
If I have to use the TV for a setup/connection, the HDMI cable from TV is connected to the Monoprice box HDMI output (I have no issues with cable connected to TV or not).
The BDP-93 has everything set to stereo (I'm a 2 channel guy) and PCM output (HDMI #2 OFF).
 It is mandatory to have the SACD output set to PCM !!
Make sure the HDMI output setting have audio turned ON (I think it can be turned off in two places).

I can't think of any other audio settings.

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 5 Mar 2012, 12:02 am

Todd—
Thanks for your input. I too believe that there's no need for a handshake with the Oppo BDP-93/Monoprice 5557/outboard DAC combo. I also agree that using the Oppo's own coax-out whenever you can is a good move. I suspect that removing a cable and another box from the signal path—especially when they don't do anything—has got to benefit the ultimate outcome.

 What I find strange about the 16 vs 24 bit-depth issue in my setup is that standard CDs over the HDMI/Monoprice connection show up as 24/44.1 on the 840C. However, when going directly out of the Oppo's coax into the 840C, they signal reads 16/44.1. As a matter of fact, when I first turn everything on—and without any shiny disc in the Oppo or USB device connected—the 840C reads 24/44.1 from the Monoprice input. Do either of these units (Oppo or Monoprice) automatically resample any signal over HDMI to 24 bit or, perhaps, does this have to do with some sort of HDMI spec?

Yes, no handshake needed with Monoprice box.

I have the same issue with bit depth on the cambridge 840C DAC inputs.
I believe this is the monoprice box just adding the extra (blank) bits but I'm not sure.
I tried this with a Sony BDP and it also reported 24 bit on everything (SACD's included) and it has been proven that those players (even better ones than I have) do not output 24 bit data.
Also I have been told (on this board) that the Cambridge player does not always read the correct bit depth.

If you use the Oppo/monprice for SACD and Blu ray audio, you can use the Oppo coax for everything else and you are all set....

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 5 Mar 2012, 12:58 am
I only have used HDMI #1 on the BDP-93 so start there.
If I have to use the TV for a setup/connection, the HDMI cable from TV is connected to the Monoprice box HDMI output (I have no issues with cable connected to TV or not).
The BDP-93 has everything set to stereo (I'm a 2 channel guy) and PCM output (HDMI #2 OFF).
 It is mandatory to have the SACD output set to PCM !!
Make sure the HDMI output setting have audio turned ON (I think it can be turned off in two places).

I can't think of any other audio settings.

Todd

Todd - thanks.  It's been a while but I thought I did all that (and then some).  I'll give it another shot at some point.  In my main system, I had both the BDP-83 and BDP-93 connected at one point and went back and forth and the BDP-83 worked with no issues and no matter what I tried I could not get the BDP-93 to work.  I just had a funny thing where the BDP-83 did not worked and I swapped the Port-ta box in the main system to the Monoprice box (made by Port-ta) in the basement and it is working.  It happened once before and the last time I switched from input 2 to input 3 on the Port-ta box and it started working.  Stuff is strange.  The BDP-93 at the moment is in the basement system and I'll try different things there first.  I'd like to get it working (even if I have to change settings (e.g. turn on an HDMI output) to watch a movie.  At some point, I envision simplifying the system a bit and it would be nice to just leave everything connected, although it is not that big a deal to swap HDMI cables as I have one going to the pre/pro and one to the de-embedder.  I have mine set to stereo too.  I do have the secondary basement and bedroom systems.  I do listen sometimes in multi-channel but probably more than 90% it is in stereo.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Claude on 8 Mar 2012, 07:17 pm
What the setup can do:
• Output 24/88.2 from physical SACD disks via the 5557
• Output up to 24/96 from physical DVD-A disks via the 5557
• Output 24/88.2 and 24/96 FLAC files that reside on a USB flash drive via the 5557

What the setup can't do:
• Output 24/192 from physical DVD-A disks via the 5557
• Output 24/192 FLAC files that reside on a USB flash drive via the 5557

Thanks a lot for your report.

As you wrote, some of your tests are mainly interesting from a theoretical point of view, because apart from the first in your list (SACD), the Oppo can do the same directly with the S/PDIF output.

Unlike other DVD-A players, the Oppo does not restrict the resolution of the S/PDIF output when playing DVD-As (at least those discs I have tried). It works with 24/96 and 24/192.

Same with FLAC files, obviously.

Where the HDMI deembedder method is also interesting, is when playing Blu-ray discs. Through S/PDIF, the resolution is downsampled to 24/48 by the Oppo, while the full resolution of audio-only BDs (Naxos, 2L) can be output through HDMI, if the connected deembedder can cope with it.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: simon wagstaff on 9 Mar 2012, 01:16 pm
Don't know if this is off-topic but I am going to start here. Does anybody have any experience yet or knowledge of the somewhat new NAD DD390? it supposedly can be had with an HDMI input which I assume does the same thing as the de-embedder?  I am very curious about this integrated amp/DAC.  it would certainly be swinging just about totally opposite from my AVA U70 tube amp.

:)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Mar 2012, 01:39 pm
Thanks a lot for your report.

As you wrote, some of your tests are mainly interesting from a theoretical point of view, because apart from the first in your list (SACD), the Oppo can do the same directly with the S/PDIF output.

Unlike other DVD-A players, the Oppo does not restrict the resolution of the S/PDIF output when playing DVD-As (at least those discs I have tried). It works with 24/96 and 24/192.

Same with FLAC files, obviously.

Where the HDMI deembedder method is also interesting, is when playing Blu-ray discs. Through S/PDIF, the resolution is downsampled to 24/48 by the Oppo, while the full resolution of audio-only BDs (Naxos, 2L) can be output through HDMI, if the connected deembedder can cope with it.

Claude, yes, that (DVD-A and BluRay) is what I said in my initial post when I wrote the review.  We have gotten quite a ways away from that, but the original intent of the de-embedder was to bring good (albeit downsampled PCM) SACD sound to your DAC, as well as full rez 24/192 BluRay, which married with Oppo's nice "jailbroken" 24/192 capture of DVD-A makes for a nice inexpensive solution.

Simon, where did you read that the HDMi inputs on the NAD c390DD are for de-embedding SACD's?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 9 Mar 2012, 01:54 pm
Don't know if this is off-topic but I am going to start here. Does anybody have any experience yet or knowledge of the somewhat new NAD DD390? it supposedly can be had with an HDMI input which I assume does the same thing as the de-embedder?  I am very curious about this integrated amp/DAC.  it would certainly be swinging just about totally opposite from my AVA U70 tube amp.

:)

From looking at their website it does appear so - http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-390DD-Direct-Digital-Powered-DAC-Amplifier
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Mar 2012, 03:00 pm
Yes, Phil and Simon, you are right.  Short of what I'm doing (rippping SACD's to native DSD and playing them back on a native DSD DAC) this approach of having simple 2 channel HDMI de-embedding part of the integrated amp, is a nice one (and an optional board for only those who need it).  Reduces addtl connections, etc.  Let's hope the HDMI video passthru is not needed to complete the handshake.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: simon wagstaff on 9 Mar 2012, 04:54 pm
it's a pretty new unit and seems to be under the radar a bit. As I understand it functions as a DAC and digital amplifier like the M2 but with lower output, 150 watts. Everything stays in the digital domain until the  "output transistors". there is an optional HDMI board and also an analogue input board. I am mainly interesting in hi rex 2 channel, surround is fun, but only sometimes, to me. I would only be interested in upgrading my DAC if I could play SACD, DVD-A and blu ray through it. I guess to integrate it into my home theater I would need the HDMI board and the analogue input board. It looks very interesting but not much information out there. It is on the NAD website and here is an early review that I don't think says anything about the HDMI input board.

http://www.audiovideo2day.eu/en/article/9541/
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 9 Mar 2012, 06:52 pm
Interesting - still awaiting Ted's Mytech DAC review and also what the Levinson No.560 Digital Audio Processor (with DSD and HDMI) will be like.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: simon wagstaff on 10 Mar 2012, 02:27 pm
Not to go too far afield but I just noticed on the NAD website that the M51 DAC/pre-amp also includes 2 hdmi inputs and one (pass through) output standard. I am guessing the pass through is required to get the handshake?

They do claim that they can get stereo sound from blu-ray.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: natf on 19 Mar 2012, 05:20 pm
Ok, I just received the Monoprice and installed it with my Oppo BDP-83.

First strange thing: when i connected the HDMI cable (1.4a 28AWG) to the Oppo, without having connected it to the Monoprice, the coax digital output of the Oppo became mute and the mute led on DAC was on... is it normal?

By the way, I made the first attempt with coax cable directly from Oppo to DAC and toslink from Monoprice to DAC.
Everything was fine, the HDMI logo on front panel of OPPO was on and I listened to a SACD, a DVD-A and an audio CD but coax from OPPO to dac again in mute mode.
Next I decided to change connection, because I preferr coax into DAC but when I disconnected coax from OPPO and connected it to Monoprice I didn't listening anything from DAC; HDMI logo on front panel of OPPO became off and never turned on from then on. I also swapped Monoprice input port from 2 to 4 (in order to use only rear panel connections)

I tried to reset the OPPO to default values and reconfigure it, disconnect Monoprice from power, but nothing, I reverted to the first working configuration but it didn't work anymore; I also tried to swap hdmi cable ends but nothing.
Furthermore the OPPO had the coax output in mute even with the HDMI cable disconnected.

I know this is a disordered way to make tries but I had not so much time; now I can't know what to do and I'm not at home because of my work. I disconnected all from the power since yesterday evening, maybe this could be help? it seems that OPPO went crazy for something...

Can someone help me?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dwk on 19 Mar 2012, 05:57 pm
Not to go too far afield but I just noticed on the NAD website that the M51 DAC/pre-amp also includes 2 hdmi inputs and one (pass through) output standard. I am guessing the pass through is required to get the handshake?

They do claim that they can get stereo sound from blu-ray.

I just picked up an M51, and unfortunately I can confirm that having a monitor on the pass-thru port is needed to get hi-res over hdmi. I have an Oppo DV-981HD that I use to play SACD, and with no monitor connected it came through as 44.1. Adding the monitor, I got 88.2 as expected.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Trazom on 21 Mar 2012, 05:53 pm
HI everybody
this is my first post so sorry if I repeat / am out of tune etc.

I have just bought a Oppo 95 and an octava 51 (mod) - attached it to my dCS purcell/delius - the dCS "sees" the 88.2 SACD/PCM signal from Oppo - but then goes mute.

Have tried to attach the TV at octavia - no result.

Does anybody here have some experience with dCS and Oppo 95 / octava or other HDMI converter?

Thank you all - wishing you a wonderful evening
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: simon wagstaff on 23 Mar 2012, 01:25 pm
I just picked up an M51, and unfortunately I can confirm that having a monitor on the pass-thru port is needed to get hi-res over hdmi. I have an Oppo DV-981HD that I use to play SACD, and with no monitor connected it came through as 44.1. Adding the monitor, I got 88.2 as expected.

Monitor issue doesn't bother me one bit. I am very curious to see what you have to say about the sound of this unit.

thanks!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 25 Mar 2012, 04:43 am
Ok, I just received the Monoprice and installed it with my Oppo BDP-83.

First strange thing: when i connected the HDMI cable (1.4a 28AWG) to the Oppo, without having connected it to the Monoprice, the coax digital output of the Oppo became mute and the mute led on DAC was on... is it normal?

By the way, I made the first attempt with coax cable directly from Oppo to DAC and toslink from Monoprice to DAC.
Everything was fine, the HDMI logo on front panel of OPPO was on and I listened to a SACD, a DVD-A and an audio CD but coax from OPPO to dac again in mute mode.
Next I decided to change connection, because I preferr coax into DAC but when I disconnected coax from OPPO and connected it to Monoprice I didn't listening anything from DAC; HDMI logo on front panel of OPPO became off and never turned on from then on. I also swapped Monoprice input port from 2 to 4 (in order to use only rear panel connections)

I tried to reset the OPPO to default values and reconfigure it, disconnect Monoprice from power, but nothing, I reverted to the first working configuration but it didn't work anymore; I also tried to swap hdmi cable ends but nothing.
Furthermore the OPPO had the coax output in mute even with the HDMI cable disconnected.

I know this is a disordered way to make tries but I had not so much time; now I can't know what to do and I'm not at home because of my work. I disconnected all from the power since yesterday evening, maybe this could be help? it seems that OPPO went crazy for something...

Can someone help me?

Thanks in advance
What were your Oppo settings? - http://watershade.net/wmcclain/BDP-83_Settings_Checklist.pdf
Did you get Monoprice product ID 5557?
What DAC?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 25 Mar 2012, 07:57 am
Somewhat off topic, but a recent "HiFiNews" (UK) in review of Primare BD32 focused on the Mediatek chip shared by Oppo, Cambridge, Primare etc - it says there is 'bug' (my words) re the bass management. To achieve optimum bass signal you need to set no trim to 'small' ie. all 7 to 'large', & allow the disk to dictate ouputs, 2.1, 5.1 etc. A channel on 'small' or 'off' leads to 'small' for all, regardless of setting. Just a contribution ('spanner in the works'!) re Oppo settings.  Needs to be explored.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: wisnon on 25 Mar 2012, 10:18 am
Monitor issue doesn't bother me one bit. I am very curious to see what you have to say about the sound of this unit.

thanks!

Massive thread on the M51 here: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/40413-nad-m51-has-arrived/page__st__90
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: simon wagstaff on 25 Mar 2012, 12:21 pm
Massive thread on the M51 here: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/40413-nad-m51-has-arrived/page__st__90

Thanks for that! Basically it is three pages of some Aussie guys wondering when theirs will show up and one guy who has one saying "it sounds great"

:)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: wisnon on 26 Mar 2012, 10:11 am
and this?

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=39384&highlight=m51
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: simon wagstaff on 26 Mar 2012, 01:36 pm
Yep, I am on that thread. Much more useful, they seem to like it but I can't seem to find too much about the HDMI input and sound quality, one guy didn't seem to like it as much as the usb.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dwk on 26 Mar 2012, 04:09 pm
Monitor issue doesn't bother me one bit. I am very curious to see what you have to say about the sound of this unit.

thanks!

Sounds fantastic in my early listening on redbook over optical. Less sure of the HDMI sound - doesn't seem to have quite the same sense of transparency, and transients seem a bit muted in comparison. This is preliminary though, since I haven't had a chance to do a real A/B with familiar material.  Haven't tried USB at all yet.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: wisnon on 27 Mar 2012, 05:22 am
Yep, I am on that thread. Much more useful, they seem to like it but I can't seem to find too much about the HDMI input and sound quality, one guy didn't seem to like it as much as the usb.

Thanks!
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/40613-nad-m51-listening-impressions/
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: wisnon on 30 Mar 2012, 08:53 pm
Tips from a Scandi dealer on getting the best from the M51:

I got something to tell you the about them (M2 M51 C390dd) to guys that have them, try to isolate them from other components electricaly with a good screened powercable preferable with filtering in it or in the powerstrip. Doing that should produce clerly better sound, i was experimenting with different setups and that i noticed about them. Also burn in time was 300 h(M2) before i really started smiling like an idiot! Also if you can dont bother shutting them down expecially the first 2 weeks, they usually sound better after 45 minutes.

I ´d love for anyone to try some of that stuff.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: intermediatic on 30 Sep 2012, 03:43 pm
Alright, here's my contribution to the fray.

I have an OPPO BDP-95, the monoprice 5557 box, and a Cary Xciter DAC connected to a Cary SLP-03 preamp which feeds two adcom 545 MK II power amps, each of which feeds one B & W 603s3 speaker as well as to B & W ASW 608 subs (two subs! always better than one).

Let's try listening to Dark Side of the Moon, blu-ray disk from the Immersion set, shall we? This is supposed to be 96/24.

After a bit of tweaking, I do have it coming out of my DAC. I MUST start with the TV on, although unlike say the King Crimson DVD-A which MUST have the TV on the entire time, once I'm out of the setup menu (which is irritating since apparently I have to choose stereo mix EVERY time I play the disc), the TV goes blank. Thank you PF.
 
Anyway, I've set the Oppo to send audio over HDMI as LPCM not bitstream since the Xciter cannot decode bistream.

Again, DSotM is set to stereo mix, not 5.1.

When I have the Monoprice on 2 channel, it outputs at 48khz. If I have it set to 5 channel it outputs at 96khz.

What gives?

That said, at least on this disc, I can't really see much difference between the BDP-95 analog output and the DAC doing the decoding.

On the other hand, if I have a normal CD, I give the edge to the Cary DAC over the BDP-95.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 1 Oct 2012, 09:00 pm
Well this may confuse things even more.  On the 2 Blurays I've tried so far (Steven Wilson's new live one and Schubert Complete Overtures on Naxos - this one is audio only), the LPCM stereo track comes out as 96 kHz, but the DTS-HD 5.1 comes out 48 kHz whether I select 2ch or 5.1ch on the Monoprice.  I don't have any TV hooked up at all, and have an Oppo 95 also.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 1 Oct 2012, 09:08 pm
Well this may confuse things even more.  On the 2 Blurays I've tried so far (Steven Wilson's new live one and Schubert Complete Overtures on Naxos - this one is audio only), the LPCM stereo track comes out as 96 kHz, but the DTS-HD 5.1 comes out 48 kHz whether I select 2ch or 5.1ch on the Monoprice.  I don't have any TV hooked up at all, and have an Oppo 95 also.

Not surprising.  The Monoprice is not a DTS decoder.  The core DTS is indeed 48k (DTS2496 is a misonomer, in that the 96k piece is only an out-of-core add-on and only available through a decoder for DTS codecs).  The LPCM track is 96k (no decoding needed of course).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 1 Oct 2012, 09:32 pm
I do have the Oppo set to output LPCM over HDMI; shouldn't that decode the DTS-HD in the Oppo?  According to the Oppo manual, set that way it should output in LPCM up to 7.1 in 24/96 and 5.1 to 24/192?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 1 Oct 2012, 09:37 pm
I do have the Oppo set to output LPCM over HDMI; shouldn't that decode the DTS-HD in the Oppo?  According to the Oppo manual, set that way it should output in LPCM up to 7.1 in 24/96 and 5.1 to 24/192?

Yes,. but DTS HD decodes down to 48k in multichannel.  Not sure about DTS HD MA (which claims an "up to 24/192").
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: django11 on 1 Oct 2012, 09:58 pm
HI everybody
this is my first post so sorry if I repeat / am out of tune etc.

I have just bought a Oppo 95 and an octava 51 (mod) - attached it to my dCS purcell/delius - the dCS "sees" the 88.2 SACD/PCM signal from Oppo - but then goes mute.

Have tried to attach the TV at octavia - no result.

Does anybody here have some experience with dCS and Oppo 95 / octava or other HDMI converter?

Thank you all - wishing you a wonderful evening

 Welcome to AC.  Sorry that it took me 6 months to reply...
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 1 Oct 2012, 10:00 pm
Yes,. but DTS HD decodes down to 48k in multichannel.  Not sure about DTS HD MA (which claims an "up to 24/192").

Thus my confusion, since these discs are DTS-HD MA.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ti_punch on 6 Oct 2012, 01:58 pm
Hello everybody,

Which is the best option for Oppo BDP-93, Atlona or Monoprice ???
Is that functions too when the TV is switch off  ??? (For SACD)
Thanks a lot
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Brisso57 on 16 Nov 2012, 06:53 am
Hi
I've done a quick search but can't find mention of the Dynalink A3830.

https://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au/viewprod?productid=A3830

Has anyone here examined /evaluated that unit?

Thanks

Doug
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Claude on 16 Nov 2012, 08:37 am
Which is the best option for Oppo BDP-93, Atlona or Monoprice ???
Is that functions too when the TV is switch off  ??? (For SACD)

I use a Port-ta which is identical to the Monoprice and it works fine with the Oppo 93.

I need to switch on the TV connected to the Port-ta to make a handshake once if the de-embedder was off before, but can then turn it off for the rest of the listening session.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 16 Nov 2012, 04:25 pm
I have both the Port-ta and identical Monoprice units (have one in a secondary system) with upgraded power supplies.  Anything that works with the Squeezebox Touch can be used as a power supply.  The BDP-83 requires no handshake.  The BDP-93 does.  I have the 93 in a secondary system for now but tried it without the handshake like the BDP-83 in the main system to no avail
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dminches on 29 Nov 2012, 02:58 am
So, the CI Audio VDC-SB works with the monoprice unit?  I had no idea.

Has anyone found a device that works with the BDP-95?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 29 Nov 2012, 03:21 am
So, the CI Audio VDC-SB works with the monoprice unit?  I had no idea.

Has anyone found a device that works with the BDP-95?

I assume it is going to be the same as the BDP-93.  When I first got the BDP-93, I had it in the main system for a couple of weeks along side the modded BDP-83 in the main.  The BDP-83 works without a handshake with the Monoprice/Port-ta unit.  I was not able to get the BDP-93 to work that way.  I did not try the BDP-93 with a handshake in the main system.  I moved it to the bedroom system (no de-embedder).  I decided to move things around about a year and a half back and move the BDP-93 to the basement system.  It does work, but requires a handshake (going into my Onkyo 1008 rec'r).  I may buy the 105 in a couple of months and use it in the main system.  But my days of using a de-embedder are probably numbered as I'm working towards digitizing the music collection, including SACDs. 
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dminches on 29 Nov 2012, 12:38 pm
My need for the de-embedder has also waned once I got the Modwright tube modes on my BDP-95 in my main rig.  However, I did set up a second system which has a BDP-83 and a Cary Xciter DAC as the sources.  So, I would like to use the Cary for SACDs and DVD-As.  With the 83 the de-embedder works great.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 29 Nov 2012, 02:29 pm
As I mentioned to David in another forum, my 95 works fine with the Monoprice, no handshake (although some Blurays only play at 48).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: dminches on 29 Nov 2012, 03:43 pm
Rob, it is very strange that we are getting different results with the 95.  When you say "no handshake" you mean that the HDMI output of the monoprice is not connected to anything?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: cheap-Jack on 29 Nov 2012, 03:57 pm
HI.
Hi
I've done a quick search but can't find mention of the Dynalink A3830.

https://www.audiovisualdevices.com.au/viewprod?productid=A3830

Has anyone here examined /evaluated that unit?

Thanks

Doug

I got one from an OEM which built such HDMI-RCA converters in China to feed direct to my stereo audio.
It also got VGA O/P for PC monitor & RCA stereo jacks O/P, which the Dynalink does not have.

It sounds pretty good with deep defined bass which I love.

But the price is cheaper cheaper.

Any readers want to buy it, I can arrange bulk ordering for a quantity discount. Send me a PM.

c-J
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 29 Nov 2012, 04:01 pm
Rob, it is very strange that we are getting different results with the 95.  When you say "no handshake" you mean that the HDMI output of the monoprice is not connected to anything?

exactly.  Oppo is set to PCM out for SACD.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: uncouth on 29 Nov 2012, 05:05 pm
Has anyone had any experience with a device such as the OP describes and the Oppo BDP-103 ? I'd like to get my SACD's through to a Bryston BDA-2.

Thanks for any info.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 29 Nov 2012, 05:11 pm
Has anyone had any experience with a device such as the OP describes and the Oppo BDP-103 ? I'd like to get my SACD's through to a Bryston BDA-2.

Thanks for any info.

I'm the OP.  :)  And yes, most any of these ($50 Monoprice, etc) will work with the Oppo 103 to de-embed HDMi to 88k PCM (still debatable whether Oppo strips off bits to 16 or leaves them at 24) as long as you set the Oppo's SACD menu setting to PCM.  Frankly, ripping them to DSD (PS3 thread of mine) and then using Audiogate to convert to PCM is a longer-term better approach cuz then you have the DSD files for later use on the BDA-2 when it goes DSD-capable...and short-term you have the ability to convert above 88k (i.e 24/176k) and knowing it is full 24 bit.  More work, though.  :)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: uncouth on 29 Nov 2012, 05:39 pm
I'm the OP.  :)  And yes, most any of these ($50 Monoprice, etc) will work with the Oppo 103 to de-embed HDMi to 88k PCM (still debatable whether Oppo strips off bits to 16 or leaves them at 24) as long as you set the Oppo's SACD menu setting to PCM.  Frankly, ripping them to DSD (PS3 thread of mine) and then using Audiogate to convert to PCM is a longer-term better approach cuz then you have the DSD files for later use on the BDA-2 when it goes DSD-capable...and short-term you have the ability to convert above 88k (i.e 24/176k) and knowing it is full 24 bit.  More work, though.  :)

Thanks ted_b :)

I did read your PS3 thread and that was my initial "project" - though I figured that approach was indeed much more involved. As luck would have it, I have one original PS3 in my possession so perhaps I'll give things a go tonight and see if that's something I can manage on my own. If not, I'll revisit this topic.  Thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 29 Nov 2012, 05:42 pm
Uncouth,
I sent you a PM with all the links.  Make sure your PS3 is SACD-capable and has firmware 3.55 or below.  Downgrading firmware is not yet possible (for this project) until the newly discovered LV0 keys are implemented (I keep watching for news).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: uncouth on 29 Nov 2012, 07:25 pm
Uncouth,
I sent you a PM with all the links.  Make sure your PS3 is SACD-capable and has firmware 3.55 or below.  Downgrading firmware is not yet possible (for this project) until the newly discovered LV0 keys are implemented (I keep watching for news).

Got it, many thanks. Yes, it's SACD capable and has the old firmware. Hopefully it's not beyond my technical capabilities. I'll report back once I give it a go.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Russtafarian on 29 Nov 2012, 07:28 pm
Quote
I'm the OP.    And yes, most any of these ($50 Monoprice, etc) will work with the Oppo 103 to de-embed HDMi to 88k PCM (still debatable whether Oppo strips off bits to 16 or leaves them at 24) as long as you set the Oppo's SACD menu setting to PCM. 

I'm doing this right now.   Oppo 103 > HDMI > Monoprice unit > S/Pdif > Benchmark DAC2.  The DAC2 has indicator lights for sample rate and bit depth.  When playing SACDs, I get the 88K and both 16 and 24 bit lights.  According to John Siau at Benchmark, both bit depth lights means higher than 16 but lower than 24. 

BTW, this setup does not require a connected HDMI monitor to work.

I found this quote from 6moons' review of the Burson Conductor DAC interesting (http://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/4.html (http://6moons.com/audioreviews/burson10/4.html)).  Burson recommends the HDMI switcher approach for connecting Ipods/Ipads to their DAC.

Quote
For Conductor users with iPods, Burson recommends a $43 HDMI switcher with $25 Apple adapter and $5 HDMI cable. "The real beauty of this no-brand HDMI switcher lies in its performance. It has a better power supply design and our lab test shows significantly lower noise output. That's why it teams perfectly with the ESS90198 in our Conductor and also sounds better."

Russ
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 29 Nov 2012, 08:27 pm
Unfortunately, HDMI as presently implemented has extremely high jitter for digital audio (in the thousands of picoseconds, compared to less than one hundred for most modern S/PDIF connections).  That doesn't matter for video (different protocols, timing not so important), but I've found that I prefer the Oppo 95 alone to using a de-embedder, and even more so if your Oppo is modified/upgraded.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: jamesg11 on 1 Dec 2012, 05:43 am
"and our lab test shows significantly lower noise output" - & this should be taken with some scepticism, given their PP160 power amp had its online specs downshifted from 95W to 70W ... after 2 years ... same voltage rail, which could never have exceeded the 70W.

Fully agree with the HDMI SQ jitter etc - my experienece with CA650BD & Sony 370 through an Atlona de-embedder via HDMI was a distinct preference for spdif into dac for dvda & analogue to pre for sacd. I shelved the Atlona ... still sitting there, forlornly.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 8 Dec 2012, 11:21 pm
The BDP-83 requires no handshake.  The BDP-93 does.  I have the 93 in a secondary system for now but tried it without the handshake like the BDP-83 in the main system to no avail

Been using the monoprice box with Oppo BDP-93 for quite a while now and I have always got a handshake with TV connected or not ?? I stated this last march http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.msg1061013#msg1061013

For SACD's (main use for Monoprice box) I never have anything connected to the monoprice box HDMI output and I turn power on to that box only when in use. Just turn it on and about 3-5 seconds later the HDMI indicator on the BDP-93 lights up and the lock & sample rate light up on my Bryston BDA-1 DAC.
It has always worked this way !
Best starting place is to have nothing connected to the Monoprice box HDMI out and re-cycle power to it.
Unless you have some other reason to get the BDP-103, I would finally figure out why this does not work in your system (since the BDP-103 will probably act the same).

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 9 Dec 2012, 04:12 am
Been using the monoprice box with Oppo BDP-93 for quite a while now and I have always got a handshake with TV connected or not ?? I stated this last march http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.msg1061013#msg1061013

For SACD's (main use for Monoprice box) I never have anything connected to the monoprice box HDMI output and I turn power on to that box only when in use. Just turn it on and about 3-5 seconds later the HDMI indicator on the BDP-93 lights up and the lock & sample rate light up on my Bryston BDA-1 DAC.
It has always worked this way !


Todd

I have it that way except I leave the unit on.  That's one thing I never tried turning on the box only when it use.  It works fine with the BDP-83 the way I have it but no the 93
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: tnargs on 9 Dec 2012, 08:05 am
I have just come across this thread, and I am trying to understand why one would not just use the optical output from one's Oppo? What is the difference between doing that and de-embedding the HDMI to 2 channel optical using the Altona?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 9 Dec 2012, 02:11 pm
I have just come across this thread, and I am trying to understand why one would not just use the optical output from one's Oppo? What is the difference between doing that and de-embedding the HDMI to 2 channel optical using the Altona?

If you'll read my initial post you'll see/know that SACD hirez resolution only appears at two places in a player, at the analog outs (after being converted by the player's internal DAC) or at the HDMI out (most players let you choose DSD or convert to PCM at that point; the de-embedders need PCM).  Optical/toslink and coax digital outs are forbidden to send SACD hirez.  The output from those, during SACD playback, would be redbook (16/44.1) if the disc has it.  Also, when it comes to BluRay, some BluRay audio discs have 24/192 stereo layers, and that layer is also prohibited to anything but HDMI. 

Since I started this thread, and specifically called it an inexpensive solution (jitter is pretty high on HDMI and its not the best long term) I discovered, help support, and have documented via another thread (and a pdf guide), the ability to rip DSD off of SACD's (and there is also the ability rip 24/192 from BluRay).   Still, this de-embedder solution is pretty cool, pretty cheap, and sounds pretty good.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: tnargs on 9 Dec 2012, 08:30 pm
Thanks Ted, I see what you are saying now. I didn't realize the digital out from the Oppo was restricted that way.

I still feel cheated when I have a multichannel audio disc and have to dumb it down either (1) to 2 channel or (2) through a HDMI receiver's audio.

Do you know of a hardware solution for multichannel?

Or is it possible via ripping as documented in your other thread? (What is its title?)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: smileallways on 12 Dec 2012, 03:21 am
Hi Rez Gurus,
     I want to find out if I can use the Sony BDPS-590  universal player to play SACDs and do the HDMI de-embedding to get the digital audio out. Will the digital output be 24 bit by 96K format? .  This can play all disc formats except for DVD-A format. How does the quality compare to the Oppo players.  I appreciate any information on this

.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: intermediatic on 7 Mar 2013, 03:47 am
I've had my Monoprice switch for a while and have been plagued by it losing signal from time to time. At that point, you'd have to pull the plug on it to get a picture.

Well I got my Geffen HDMI Detective today in hopes of solving that problem. I had some trouble with my AppleTV and Mac Mini. The picture seemed overly pink. So I set pin 3 to on to simulate an EDID (I also had pin 4, HDCP on) and that works fine.

I tossed the Blu Ray Wish You Were here on my Oppo BDP-95. It worked as always. I turned the TV OFF. Hosanna! The unit is still playing, even managed to repeat tracks.

So there's your answer. It just plain works with the Detective, you just have to set it right.

Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Boldlygo on 27 Mar 2013, 09:58 pm
I'm the OP.  :)  And yes, most any of these ($50 Monoprice, etc) will work with the Oppo 103 to de-embed HDMi to 88k PCM (still debatable whether Oppo strips off bits to 16 or leaves them at 24) as long as you set the Oppo's SACD menu setting to PCM.  Frankly, ripping them to DSD (PS3 thread of mine) and then using Audiogate to convert to PCM is a longer-term better approach cuz then you have the DSD files for later use on the BDA-2 when it goes DSD-capable...and short-term you have the ability to convert above 88k (i.e 24/176k) and knowing it is full 24 bit.  More work, though.  :)

Hi Ted. First time poster here. I found this thread because I recently purchased a Bryston SP3 for my system and have been following some of their threads on AudioCircle.
Here's my system: I have an OPPO BDP-103 player, a Bryston SP3 pre/pro, a Lexicon LX-7 amp, a Toshiba HD-XA2 HD player and a custom-built computer with Toslink and COAX outs (I run my own computer business). The music server is running Win7 Pro with a small SSD drive for the OS and 2 x 2TB mirrored drives for my library. I run iTunes and have ripped my entire library using AIFF.
My library includes a lot of SACD and multi-ch SACDs as well as disks in DXD, xrcd, xrcd24, HDCD, UDC, LPCD45, etc. I also have many DVD-As and a few titles from AIX records.

For cables I use:
Computer --> SP3 :      Morrow Audio DIG4 coax 1m
SP3 --> LX7 :               Cardas Golden Presence balanced .5m
LX7 --> Elac FS:248s :  Chord Carnival bi-wired 4.5m

I have tested many ways of listening to the better CDs in my collection and have concluded that the best sound was through my computer using iTunes using a Morrow Audio DIG4 coax cable to my Bryston SP3. I have tried USB and Toslink, but the coax seems best. I also tried the CDs directly from the OPPO; a Mac Mini using USB; and other high-end CD players such as a Cambridge Audio Azur 840C, but the computer has always sounded the best.

Now I read this thread (well, not ALL of it) and am left to wonder if I should try the MonoPrice piece to see if the sacd's will sound better than the computer (and what about all my other formats?). I'd love to get your feelings on this, and being in Canada, where would I buy the MonoPrice - from their website?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 27 Mar 2013, 11:06 pm
Hi Rez Gurus,
     I want to find out if I can use the Sony BDPS-590  universal player to play SACDs and do the HDMI de-embedding to get the digital audio out. Will the digital output be 24 bit by 96K format? .  This can play all disc formats except for DVD-A format. How does the quality compare to the Oppo players.  I appreciate any information on this

.

I have used a BDP-BX37, which is the same as the old Sony 370 and it required a handshake (to the pre/pro but worked) and was able to pass 176.4kHz from SACD, however, John Gatski of everythingaudio.net has tested non-Oppo players (included the Sonys and I ran over to his place with an Integra that also did 176.4kHz) and they truncate the word length to 16 bits.  I believe in his next issue an overview of HDMI audio de-embedders may be coming.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 27 Mar 2013, 11:07 pm
Hi Ted. First time poster here. I found this thread because I recently purchased a Bryston SP3 for my system and have been following some of their threads on AudioCircle.
Here's my system: I have an OPPO BDP-103 player, a Bryston SP3 pre/pro, a Lexicon LX-7 amp, a Toshiba HD-XA2 HD player and a custom-built computer with Toslink and COAX outs (I run my own computer business). The music server is running Win7 Pro with a small SSD drive for the OS and 2 x 2TB mirrored drives for my library. I run iTunes and have ripped my entire library using AIFF.
My library includes a lot of SACD and multi-ch SACDs as well as disks in DXD, xrcd, xrcd24, HDCD, UDC, LPCD45, etc. I also have many DVD-As and a few titles from AIX records.

For cables I use:
Computer --> SP3 :      Morrow Audio DIG4 coax 1m
SP3 --> LX7 :               Cardas Golden Presence balanced .5m
LX7 --> Elac FS:248s :  Chord Carnival bi-wired 4.5m

I have tested many ways of listening to the better CDs in my collection and have concluded that the best sound was through my computer using iTunes using a Morrow Audio DIG4 coax cable to my Bryston SP3. I have tried USB and Toslink, but the coax seems best. I also tried the CDs directly from the OPPO; a Mac Mini using USB; and other high-end CD players such as a Cambridge Audio Azur 840C, but the computer has always sounded the best.

Now I read this thread (well, not ALL of it) and am left to wonder if I should try the MonoPrice piece to see if the sacd's will sound better than the computer (and what about all my other formats?). I'd love to get your feelings on this, and being in Canada, where would I buy the MonoPrice - from their website?

Thanks.

I assume you have seen this thread?  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115419.msg1206388#new
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 27 Mar 2013, 11:08 pm
Thanks Ted, I see what you are saying now. I didn't realize the digital out from the Oppo was restricted that way.

I still feel cheated when I have a multichannel audio disc and have to dumb it down either (1) to 2 channel or (2) through a HDMI receiver's audio.

Do you know of a hardware solution for multichannel?

Or is it possible via ripping as documented in your other thread? (What is its title?)

Note this thread as well - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115419.msg1206388#new
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Boldlygo on 28 Mar 2013, 01:11 am
Note this thread as well - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115419.msg1206388#new
No. So much to read - this is the first thread I've read on this topic. What exactly are you trying to point out to me? The new feature for the OPPO? If so, thanks - I'll read up on it. (I won't get to hear my system if I do all this reading! Yikes)
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Boldlygo on 28 Mar 2013, 01:29 am
Note this thread as well - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115419.msg1206388#new
So this new feature for my OPPO sounds interesting, but I'm not there yet. I've never heard DSD or DSF files. I'm still trying to figure out, like I said in my first post, how to use a device like the MonoPrice and will it sound better than what I'm currently listening to through my computer system with my SACDs?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Mar 2013, 01:54 am
So this new feature for my OPPO sounds interesting, but I'm not there yet. I've never heard DSD or DSF files. I'm still trying to figure out, like I said in my first post, how to use a device like the MonoPrice and will it sound better than what I'm currently listening to through my computer system with my SACDs?

I've only had my current DAC (Meitner MA-1) a short time.  I do have the Monoprice de-embedder hooked to it via an Oppo BDP-83 doing 24/88.2kHz via PCM the same as I had with my old DAC (Bryston BDA-1).  I am really new to DSF and DFF files.  Sounds better than the de-embedder.  I've also heard my system with an earlier version of my music server (I have a HAL MS-2) playing DFF files at 176.4kHz the same as you can from a computer (if you have ISO, DFF, DSF files) with my old DAC and I did think it sounded better than the de-embedder.  I've had the de-embedder (in fact have a second one that I was using for a bit in a secondary basement system - have the Port-ta unit and they make the Monoprice unit.  I've had the de-embedders for some time.  How are you currently playing SACDs on the computer (if you are and if not you can get the files ripped from the discs)?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Boldlygo on 28 Mar 2013, 01:32 pm
I've only had my current DAC (Meitner MA-1) a short time.  I do have the Monoprice de-embedder hooked to it via an Oppo BDP-83 doing 24/88.2kHz via PCM the same as I had with my old DAC (Bryston BDA-1).  I am really new to DSF and DFF files.  Sounds better than the de-embedder.  I've also heard my system with an earlier version of my music server (I have a HAL MS-2) playing DFF files at 176.4kHz the same as you can from a computer (if you have ISO, DFF, DSF files) with my old DAC and I did think it sounded better than the de-embedder.  I've had the de-embedder (in fact have a second one that I was using for a bit in a secondary basement system - have the Port-ta unit and they make the Monoprice unit.  I've had the de-embedders for some time.  How are you currently playing SACDs on the computer (if you are and if not you can get the files ripped from the discs)?
I didn't do anything special with all my high-end CDs - I just ripped them like every other CD into iTunes using AIFF format. The better the CD, the better sound I've heard in iTunes.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 28 Mar 2013, 01:52 pm
Well, if you are just listening to a CD layer of an SACD, I would think getting 24/88.2 from the Oppo and de-embedder is going to be an improvement.  When I was using the de-embedders (with being able to decode DSD in the DAC I may eventually stick them in some spare system if I get a non-DSD DAC), I also used an upgraded power supply.  For the Monoprice unit, anything that will work with the Squeezebox Touch will work.  It's not a night and day different but it helps a bit.  If you get the hi-rez files ripped, then you can hear higher resolution PCM from the computer.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Boldlygo on 28 Mar 2013, 05:06 pm
Well, if you are just listening to a CD layer of an SACD, I would think getting 24/88.2 from the Oppo and de-embedder is going to be an improvement.  When I was using the de-embedders (with being able to decode DSD in the DAC I may eventually stick them in some spare system if I get a non-DSD DAC), I also used an upgraded power supply.  For the Monoprice unit, anything that will work with the Squeezebox Touch will work.  It's not a night and day different but it helps a bit.  If you get the hi-rez files ripped, then you can hear higher resolution PCM from the computer.
Sounds good.
Another question - why is the sound better after I ripped the CD into iTunes than directly from the OPPO's HDMI out (which would be the SACD layer) into the Bryston?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: ted_b on 28 Mar 2013, 05:20 pm
Sounds good.
Another question - why is the sound better after I ripped the CD into iTunes than directly from the OPPO's HDMI out (which would be the SACD layer) into the Bryston?

The Bryston SP3 you just bought does NOT have DSD decoder capability, so whatever is being captured by the HDMI in is PCM, so i would guess you have the Oppo set to PCM mode for SACD HDMI, therefore there is some conversion happening in the player.  HDMi adds some jitter too (which is why the de-embedder is not as good of a solution as either offline PCM conversion or the best solution....pure native DSD playback into a DSD DAC.  The de-embedder, as I stated in the first post of this thread, is a cheap easy and-at-the-time almost exclusive way to get hirez PCM to your DAC without ripping, etc etc.  it was by no means the ultimate soltuion).
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: todd95008 on 17 Apr 2013, 10:36 pm
Looks like John Gatski finally did his review of HDMI embedders !!
http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2013/04/audiophile-review-hdmi-de-embedder.html

Had not heard of the Kanex Pro unit..

Todd
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Freo-1 on 19 Mar 2016, 06:34 pm
Looks like John Gatski finally did his review of HDMI embedders !!
http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2013/04/audiophile-review-hdmi-de-embedder.html (http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2013/04/audiophile-review-hdmi-de-embedder.html)

Had not heard of the Kanex Pro unit..

Todd


Picked up a KanexPro Audio De-Embedder.  Quite a neat audio toy.  Seems to work very well.

From some initial comparisons between SACD direct from the Oppo and the Benchmark, it appears that the Benchmark is a step up sonically from using the Oppo directly.  The Benchmark also does sound better with the other LCPM data streams via the De-Embedder as opposed to the Oppo directly (with my setup).  The noise floor is lower, and there is a noticeable increase in clarity via the Benchmark.

I'll need to spend some time to confirm these observations.  So far, so good.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Jeff Permanian on 1 Sep 2016, 10:04 pm
I've been using my Oppo direct to my amplifiers for 2 channel listening or using the Oppo's hdmi to a pre/pro for home theater. I picked up a Cherry DAC DAC and then realized the Oppo won't output sacd's digitally. I just ordered a KanexPro De-Embedder and a 1 foot hdmi. I'll report back on how it works.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 2 Sep 2016, 12:12 am
I've been using my Oppo direct to my amplifiers for 2 channel listening or using the Oppo's hdmi to a pre/pro for home theater. I picked up a Cherry DAC DAC and then realized the Oppo won't output sacd's digitally. I just ordered a KanexPro De-Embedder and a 1 foot hdmi. I'll report back on how it works.

Don't forget to set the Oppo to output PCM from SACDs when you get the de-embedder
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 6 Jun 2020, 09:56 pm
https://www.stereophile.com/content/geerfab-audio-dbob-digital-breakout-box

Is it worth a new topic to discuss this item, which seems to do a bit more than the other gear?
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: Phil A on 6 Jun 2020, 11:08 pm
https://www.stereophile.com/content/geerfab-audio-dbob-digital-breakout-box

Is it worth a new topic to discuss this item, which seems to do a bit more than the other gear?

I'd think that those still into disc playback as a preference might be interested.  The problem is that most of the players I've seen tested were done by John Gatski at http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/    I believe except for the Oppo players, the PCM output from the rest were truncated to 16 bits from SACDs.  Many years ago when I was in the DC area I picked up an Integra DPS 6.9 as a result of seeing it at a Capital Audiofest (still have it but it is in a secondary system and only sees use very infrequently when someone brings a disc over maybe once every couple of years as I do file playback).  Other than the sampling frequency, I had no way to determine the bit depth that was output.  My Oppo players output 24/88.2.  I was excited when I saw my DAC light up at 176.4 from the Integra.  So I dragged it over John Gatski's house and it output 16/176.4. 

I probably still have an HDMI audio de-embedder (or two) laying around.  I actually put upgraded power supplies on mine as anything made for the Squeezebox Touch would work (I actually put the proper connector on, cutting off the one that came with it, from a Jerome power supply that I got very reasonably on close-out for a friend).  I am not sure exactly what this device would do over and above the standard HDMI audio de-embedder (at many multiples the price) but it might be good to know (extra knowledge probably never hurt anyone or at least not too much - that's why many of us come here) for those who still do disc playback and might use an outboard DAC.
Title: Re: Review: take SACD and BlURay Hirez directly to your DAC!!!!
Post by: rbbert on 7 Jun 2020, 11:56 am
This will output DSD64 from SACD’s from those players that output a DSD stream via HDMI.  For sure Oppo’s; I think also many Sony’s and Yamaha, perhaps others?