[PhilipAC]

Hi everyone

I know this is an old chestnut but...

Many new DACs now have pre-amps with VC built into them. Assuming the VC is in the analog domain, is there any inherent reason why an external pre should
sound better, or is it just that it's very unusual to find a built-in pre that is as high quality as a good external pre?

Philip

[dflee]

In my case I have multiple sources, cdp, tuna, dvd & satelite, running through the system.
This requires a pre so for that reason a vc in the dac is not worth paying for the redundancy. I'm sure there are some very good dacs out there with pre built in and if you only have one source may be a convenience.

Don

[k6davis]

I'm loving my NAD M-51 DAC/Pre.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M51-Direct-Digital-DAC

Stereophile Class A+ rated. Its volume control is digital, but it processes audio at 35 bits internally, so "Even with 24-bit high definition signals, the output can be attenuated by 66dB (very, very quiet) before bit truncation begins."

As a preamp, all the inputs are digital. There's one each of USB, Coax & Optical inputs and uniquely, 2 HDMI (2.0 only) inputs with video pass-thru. All inputs accept 24/192 signals. The analog outs are Class-A, singled ended & balanced.

So, I've got a Video 2.0 system. Music is via J-River and a Tivo HD & Oppo Universal BD Player supply the video.

It's simple and sounds fantastic.

[ted_b]

Hi everyone

I know this is an old chestnut but...

Many new DACs now have pre-amps with VC built into them. Assuming the VC is in the analog domain, is there any inherent reason why an external pre should
sound better, or is it just that it's very unusual to find a built-in pre that is as high quality as a good external pre?

Philip

Philip,
Great way to pose the issue/question.  I have been very public in my reviews and posts about how much I am disappointed with the trend to pawn off the often-poor quality digital volume controls in these modern DACs as "preamps".  Even if some care is given (high bit rates in digital volume, better quality parts in analog volume) I find direct-to-amp to 99.9% of the time leave me cold, with bleached timbres and often a slight veil over the recording.  However, it can be done; at least in my system, the only DAC (after hearing probably 20+) that stood next to either of my hi-end preamps (active Concert Fidelity CF080 or passive/active original Bent TAP TVC) was the gold-tipped relay-attenuated remote volume of the Antelope Gold DAC.  It was very good in my system at the time.  But that was it; my own Myteks, as much as I like them, are way better in true bypass mode (it's nice when they allow complete bypass as opposed to just volume to 100) than either of its digital or analog volume controls.  I am demoing the Auralic Vega presently, and find the same to be true...but again, I have high expectations for a preamp, and need it to leave all the meat on the bone. 

Often the results are a mix of ultra-detail and yet slight noise...a weird combination that, to me, was very unmusical.  And as Don points out, the audio lover with multiple sources is often not served by this "preamp" as the inclusion of quality (note I said quality) unprocessed analog inputs (i.e not re-digitized) is even more rare than the great volume control.

Given all of that, if the Antelope Gold can do it, so can others.  I'm sure k6davis's NAD is very good, as it was built for this function, and has received rave reviews as such. 

[wilsynet]

I have the NAD M51 too.  It's suitability to run direct to amplifier is superb.

By comparison, the M51 as preamp was better in my system than the ARC LS26 and the Modwright LS-100.  Both of which are very good preamps.

Having said that, I am indeed using a preamp, the Coincident Statement Linestage, which is better than the NAD direct to amp.  But I think you need to get to rarefied air like the Coincident or the Atma-sphere MP-3 before a preamp starts to demonstrate its value versus the M51 alone.

[john dozier]

Adding additional cabling and gain stages can only add distortion and frequency/phase anomalies. You may like these changes, but they are a distortion of the original signal. The exception to this is if you have chosen a dac with a poor pre-amp section and these days that is rare. Regards

[ted_b]

The exception to this is if you have chosen a dac with a poor pre-amp section and these days that is rare. Regards

Yes, only 9 out of 10.   Where are you getting your facts??  Many DACS have poor digital volume controls that destroy resolution at anything but a slight attenuation.  They are getting better (more digital headroom, better analog stepped attenuators, etc), but "rare" is not even close. 

[rodge827]

The Dspeaker Antimode Dual Core 2.0 has a preamp section, dac and room correction in one neat little package.

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml

[john dozier]

Most dacs with digital volume controls are using 32bit systems. Unless you do a great deal of hirez downloads, there is no degradation with redbook material. Regards

[PhilipAC]

My experience so far has been that adding my pre-amp has materially improved things, but I am talking about the Ayre KXR!

I have just ordered a Level 5 Lampizator with pre (high quality VC in analog domain), so I'll post comparisons in due course.

PS The Level 4 Lampi I've demo'ed is absolutely amazing!