New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

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modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #20 on: 16 Mar 2018, 11:02 pm »
OK, things are moving along well with the $2500 phono stage project!

At this point, MC gain will be in the low-mid 60dB range. MM will be about 43dB.

Four tubes, external power supply and a two-chassis design, where each enclosure is 8"W x 5"H x 10"D.  Because anode chokes are used inside the phono stage, the PS HAS to be external and the two boxes separated for quietest operation.

I am still working out how loading will be implemented. I plan at this point to have on-the-fly loading, in the same manner as the PH 150.  It will be only resistive loading.  I plan to have at least one MM and one MC input. At this price point, does it make sense to have more than one MM and one MC? Two MC's and one MM?

Aesthetics will be purposely simple and elegant, but not flashy.  In order to keep the price to $2500, all money will be going into engineering and parts quality.  It will look nice, but will not be all machined Aluminum.  I expect a steel enclosure with a 1/4" AL face plate, laser engraved or silk screened.

To be clear though, the engineering for this design WILL trickle down significantly from our $7900 Reference PH 150 phono stage!

I anticipate having this at Axpona 2018 Chicago in prototype form!

Thanks,

Dan

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #21 on: 16 Mar 2018, 11:05 pm »
While I expect to have the Phono in prototype form at Axpona 2018 in Chicago, there is another product that I am also working on!

A Class A, SE Tube Integrated Amp is also moving along nicely, but will not be ready for Axpona.

I am shooting for 40W+ of PURE CLASS A, Single Ended tube power, in a high quality integrated amp! We are doing something very different here!  Not push-pull, not SET. Pentodes and triodes will be used.

This will be a design Like No Other!

Dan

JohnCh

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #22 on: 17 Mar 2018, 11:01 pm »
I don't need to support multiple tonearms, so would rather not pay for that feature, particularly at this price point.  Perhaps add that as an upgrade option for those who do, similar to how you offer the DAC and phono stage upgrades on some preamps? 

My past two phono stages have employed separate power supplies, and I like the flexibility it adds.  Given the anode chokes, how much separation is needed between the enclosures?

Thanks,
John

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #23 on: 18 Mar 2018, 04:07 am »
12” seems like an ideal minimum. This is based on watching noise levels on the bench as I move the PS and phono enclosure closer and farther apart. I much prefer inductive loading to SS Constant Current Sources whenever possible!

PicknPop

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #24 on: 19 Mar 2018, 08:54 pm »
I have to agree with Johnch as I think that those who can afford the kind of table that has multiple tonearms would likely go for a more expensive phono stage, so I would vote for the mono function that you use on your PH150 as that is a more cost-effective and less labor-intensive way of enjoying mono records for those of us who either can't afford multiple tonearms and cartridges or if you can at least afford the cartridge then, who don't want to have to swap cartridges when playing mono records as unless you have a Jelco type tonearm it's obviously a hassle.  I've actually been considering upgrading to a JC3+ from the built-in LS100 phono stage almost strictly for that feature as the PH150 is out of my price range at the moment and I can't even listen to my mono records anymore due to the fact that they just don't sound right on my stereo cart. 

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #25 on: 21 Mar 2018, 09:37 pm »
OK, then that is settled.  One MC and one MM input. One pair of RCA outs, no XLR outs.

I am very pleased with the prototype so far!  I believe that the MM input will use a separate first gain stage from the MC, because the MC input is REALLY high gain.  This is good for MC as it allows for A LOT of gain up front and the end result for MC is very quiet. The lower gain MM first stage will give just the gain needed.

If so, a single 12AU7 (likely tube to use) will serve as L/R MM input gain stage.

Mono/stereo toggle, check.
Mute toggle would be good I should think.
Rotary selector with six R loading combinations for MC.
MM input will be fixed 47K/100pf.
Rotary selector on the left will likely be: Off/Mute/MM/MC or something like this.

More soon.  Thank you for the input.

I have looked at what is available at the $2500 retail price point and of course the Manley Chinook is a competitor.  What will set ours apart will be the flexible on-the-fly loading and very low noise floor as a result of an external supply.  Also, it will have very similar sonics as the PH 150.

Dan Wright

JMosch

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #26 on: 23 Mar 2018, 01:46 am »
Hi Dan,

I'd like to put in my 2 cents. I currently own a LS-100 with phono and Modded Transporter (later mod). Currently I use two different tube integrated amps, a MasterSound Due Trenta SE (30 W, KT-88 singled ended 0 feedback) and a Unison S6 (35 W, EL34 single ended). With these amps I'm using the LS-100 purely as a phono stage.

I had the KWA-100se in for a demo and frankly it didn't do it for me. Both tube amps have greater depth (particularly the MasterSound) and are more involving.

With that said I'd be very interested in a 2k-ish phono stage, so what you are planning sounds great.

Fantasy would be a single ended tube integrated with built in phono. There just are not that many out there although I'm not in a position to judge how desirable the phono is with a tube integrated.

There is one other thing Dan, because I know you are into vinyl (about 80% of my listening). The LS-100 is pretty awesome in that you can change the gain via the tube type (12AU7, 12AT7, or 12AX7). I'm using a Benz Ref Silver with 0.3 mV output and a 12AX7. So I recently tried a CineMag SUT with the LS-100 phono and the lower gain tube. There is no comparison, the SUT improves things that much. Its faster with loads of detail and not a hint of brightness, and of course a lower noise floor. Not sure if this is due to a limitation of the LS-100 board. Its one of those improvements where you are pulling out your old records just to hear how good they sound. That is when you know you've made a big improvement.

So the question is, is it a good idea to design a tube phono stage for MM gain and then use high quality transformers for the MC inputs? I know other companies do this. I wonder if you have listened to some step-up devices and what you think of this approach.

Thanks for the great involvement with your customers, regards,

John

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #27 on: 23 Mar 2018, 02:18 am »
Thanks, I am working on the phono stage today actually.  I have concluded that MC step-ups are a must.  The downside is that they will also raise the price.

It will be between $2500 - $2900.  Probably towards the higher cost with the use of Lundahl step-ups.

I am trying to accomplish this in one box also, with adjustable loading, MM, Mute, MC select on the front and stereo/mono toggle.  All of these, including resistive loading for MC will be on the fly.  No dip switches.

Thanks for your input!  It is greatly appreciated as it is my goal to make the BEST phono stage possible in this price range!  The goal is to approach the performance of the PH 150 at a much lower price-point.

Dan

JohnCh

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #28 on: 23 Mar 2018, 01:32 pm »
Hi Dan, when you write "I'm trying to accomplish this in one box" are you referring to where you house the SUTs, or do you mean you are no longer going for a separate power supply?  Regarding the SUT approach, I have been reading a lot lately about people discovering much better performance using SUT with their MM stage vs. the MC stage, so definitely interested to see you pursue this path. 

Thanks,
John

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #29 on: 23 Mar 2018, 03:39 pm »
By One Box, I am referring to an internal power supply.

At this point, I have a two stage circuit, capable of MM gain and then when MC step-ups are added, you have MC gain levels.

I can also design the first stage to provide MC gain without step-ups and there is a bit more noise. However, that input is too hot for MM inputs and then there is a separate MM input circuit required. It makes more sense to use MC step-ups for MC, and MM without, with circuit gain designed for appropriate MM levels.

It would be less costly to simply offer a MM only phono stage, but that is not what people want. When a step-up is offered separately, it is typically quite expensive and may use the very best step-ups available.

The Lundahl step-ups are used in our PH 150 and they sound exceptional.

So now the only decision is if the power supply will be external or not. Also, if it is external, whether it will be two 1/2 width enclosures or a full width phono enclosure and a 'brick' style PS enclosure, housing only the transformer and noisy elements on a long umbilical, to be tucked out of the way.

Thanks,

Dan

woodsyi

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New Product
« Reply #30 on: 23 Mar 2018, 04:19 pm »
All things being equal, I would say separate box for PS but you are building it to a price point.  How much of the gain in SQ  with separate box do you capitalize with your "limited" circuitry?  Real estate can also play a role if you must separate them by a foot or more.   In trying to anticipate a 3K mm/mc phono stage clientele, I am thinking one box probably makes more sense, imho.

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #31 on: 23 Mar 2018, 04:42 pm »
Well, I have made a change to one part of the circuit to allow for more tolerance of PS proximity.  I will know based on that.  The step-ups are fully mu metal shielded and as such, not a problem.

I won't sacrifice SQ even at the price however, so it will be what it has to be.

Two 1/2 width enclosures, if put on the same shelf, really offer no benefit to noise reduction.  Despite the enclosures being fully steel enclosed, EMI will still be an issue, if the circuit is that sensitive to noise. Hence either two enclosures that are mounted on the same rack, but separated by at least 12", or a full width phono enclosure and the noisy parts of the supply in an external enclosure that can be tucked away anywhere and not on the rack.

Measurements BTW (so far):

Noise: -88dB MC (No weighting)
THD: < .08% at 1Khz
Frequency Response: 20Hz-50Khz (+/-.3dB)

Thanks.

Dan

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #32 on: 26 Mar 2018, 01:08 am »
The unit will have MM and MC inputs with separate gain and loading:

MM = 47K fixed.
MC = variable resistive loading via front panel control, (On-The-Fly) no Capacitive loading.

Mono/Stereo toggle.

I had considered gain controls. What about a simple volume pot to allow precise gain levels for either MM or MC out selected?
MM gain of 44dB and MC gain of 64dB will handle nearly ANY cartridge you supply, unless it is an EXTREMELY low MC, in which case, you will use a specific step-up into the MM input.

But, if you have a .5mV, 1mV, 1.5mV MC cart or a MM cart with > 5mV output, you may want less than the max MM or MC gain provided.

If this feature is attractive, please let me know.

I am close to deciding if the design can be accomplished without sonic compromise in one enclosure or not.

Thank you,

Dan W.

JohnCh

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #33 on: 26 Mar 2018, 01:14 am »
Is this infinitely adjustable gain within a specified range?  If so, that's something I find very worthwhile as it affords a lot of flexibility for different cartridges, preamps, and amps down the road.

-John

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #34 on: 26 Mar 2018, 04:32 pm »
I can make the pot allow for gain adjustment within a range of say 12dB? 18dB? Infinitely adjustable!

This means that MM could range from 32dB-44dB or 26dB-44dB; MC could range from 52dB-64dB or 46dB-64dB.

I really do appreciate this feedback!

Dan

JMosch

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #35 on: 26 Mar 2018, 10:30 pm »
IMO a pot is a bad idea. I think discrete setting where you know what it is works better.

 But if you do use a pot make sure its hard to rotate and you need to use a screwdriver. The Audio Alchemy phono pre I am evaluating has pots for resistive loading and they move way too easy and its very annoying.

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #36 on: 26 Mar 2018, 10:47 pm »
OK, thanks for that.

Dan

PicknPop

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Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #37 on: 26 Mar 2018, 11:10 pm »
Hi Dan,

I'm very excited about this phono stage and appreciate your taking my feedback about the mono switch.  You're going to use a 12AU7 tube in this, correct?  I only ask as I just rolled the 5R4 tube in my cd player's PS 9.0 and my LS 100's 6SN7's with nice vintage tubes to great effect, so I'm anxious to roll my LS100's phono stage, but will obviously hold off if you're not using the same tube in this new project.

modwright

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #38 on: 27 Mar 2018, 12:12 am »
At this point the design only uses two 6C45's and two 6922's.  It will likely be SS rectified, like the PH 150.

The 12AU7 was going to be used for MM input only, if I didn't use Lundahl step-ups.  At this point, I think I will use the step-ups, and as such, no 12AU7.

Thanks,

Dan

GregC

Re: New Products - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?
« Reply #39 on: 27 Mar 2018, 03:17 am »
As you noted the Chinnook is a potential competitor, but the Taversh Design Adagio is much more similar to what you have described with its separate PSU, two half width enclosures, transformer step ups for MC, on the fly adjustments, and a price that makes it appealing (especially considering the performance).  That is the benchmark to beat in my opinion.

Several months ago you mentioned a discreet SS quiet phono stage in the $1k price range and that sounded interesting.  Is there any plans on developing that product?