Ssssibilance / Mistracking

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WireNut

Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« on: 12 Jan 2018, 05:38 pm »
Ssssibilance / Mistracking,

When I think of mistracking, I think of skipping.
Is there more to mistracking then just skipping?

I’ve been having trouble with ssssibilance.
I’ve done the usual, adjust vtf, vta, sra, azimuth, changed mats, cartridges, stylus, interconnects but I’m still getting sssssss.

I’m using a VE paper Stevenson protractor on my JVC QL-7 table, UA5045 arm, and it doesn’t look like I can adjust the cantilever with
the grid precisely due to the sides of my headshell restricting the amount of rotation I can do.

I also find it difficult to see both the grid and cantilever.

If the cantilever is out of alignment with the grid can that cause ssssibilance?
If I have it out I don't think it's by much.

Do I need a mirrored alignment protractor, if so, where can I get one for a Stevenson alignment?

Any other ideas what may be causing the sibilance?

I'm also wondering if it may be due to my 2-3 decade old equipment needing cap replacements.

Thanks

FullRangeMan

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Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #1 on: 12 Jan 2018, 05:52 pm »
I would suggest change the speaker to other pair,
after it could change the TT to a good one to test.
Never heard of this prob in all my life, a rare bird.

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #2 on: 12 Jan 2018, 06:04 pm »
I have had problems with sibilants in the past and it is a tough nut to crack because every piece of gear can contribute to it including cables.  The biggest culprit is the recording itself.  My speakers are also a big contributor.  I have Magnepan 1.6's and I tamed some it by using resistors in the tweeters.  I also picked a warmer sounding DAC (Luxman DA-06), phono preamp and phono cartridge.  I use a Nagaoka MP-200 cartidge.  All the Nagaoka's are very smooth and lean to the warmer side of neutral. They are not bright in the least and they are very forgiving of surface noise.  They are medium compliance cartridges.  In addition, I went though various interconnects until I found a couple of different ones that tamed the last bit of sibilants.  I use Audioquest Columbia DBS XLR's that I bought on sale a music direct and a pair of Belden 8402 XLR's that I bought here- https://btpa.com/IC8402XLR-XX.html  Both of these come in single ended RCA's.  The cables really did make a nice difference, especially the AQ's.  I had been using Blue Jeans cables.

The rest of my gear is a Pass X250 amp and a BAT VK-51se.  I use to have a Parasound A21 amp and sibilants were more pronounced with the A21.

You can download a Stevenson protractor at Vinyl Engine.  You will need to join to be able to download it.

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

I hope this helps,

Larry

ohenry

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #3 on: 12 Jan 2018, 09:00 pm »
Consider getting a setup record from HiFi News or other sources.  I found them to be helpful beyond the typical setup hardware because you can tweak and hear the changes.  Tracking force is often an issue of being set low.

Or it could be the cartridge.  Take a look through a loop to see if there are issues.  If not, it could be that the cartridge and tonearm just don't work well together.  I've been there and it's frustrating.  Good luck with solving this.  :)

edit: Also, don't trust the anti-skate settings.  Play with that and see how it affects the highs.

spence

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #4 on: 12 Jan 2018, 09:08 pm »
The sibilance might be a sensitivity and impedance mismatch with your preamp/cartridge.

ohenry

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #5 on: 12 Jan 2018, 09:21 pm »
... I’m using a VE paper Stevenson protractor on my JVC QL-7 table, UA5045 arm, and it doesn’t look like I can adjust the cantilever with
the grid precisely due to the sides of my headshell restricting the amount of rotation I can do...

Sorry for the further intrusion, but this is a red flag.  Something doesn't seem right.

stonedeaf

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #6 on: 13 Jan 2018, 04:31 am »
1.) It is only while playing records ? IOw -not while playing other sources ?
2.) second the Hi Fi News test record - this comes with a simple paper  alignment gauge. And will allow you to quickly hear whether you are at least in the ballpark in terms of tracking (the last anti-skate/bias band IMO is not important). A ARC alignment gauge ( see vinyl engine) - might be more useful ?
3.)  Is this happening more on the inner grooves ? Only on certain records and specific passages within those LP's ?
4.) Does this occur on fresh unplayed before you purchased them LP's ?

Letitroll98

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Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #7 on: 13 Jan 2018, 03:28 pm »
Sorry for the further intrusion, but this is a red flag.  Something doesn't seem right.

Yes, the cantilever should be aligned with the cartridge enough that only a small movement should be necessary to align the cantilever with the alignment grid.  Is your cantilever offset with respect to the cartridge body?

WireNut

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #8 on: 13 Jan 2018, 04:50 pm »
All great responses here. Thank you so much.

First thing i'm gonna do is fix my JVC/Victor UA-5045 arms sagging counterweight.
Also, I noticed the base of the arm needs to be tightened as there is some movement.

Since I'll have to tighten the arm from the bottom this will be a good time to see how difficult it will be
to remove the circuit board and replace all 16 caps and 4 bias pots. 

All this may not solve the sssss problem but it needs to be done.

The HIFI News test record is a great idea. I need to purchase one.

This is going to take some time.

 :?

bacobits1

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #9 on: 13 Jan 2018, 08:12 pm »
Steve, what cart are you using?

The absolute best setup device you can use is an Arc protractor if you can find one for that arm. No if's and or but's if it is aligned on that arc it's set. The grid thing is terrible to see I use a lighted magnifier to set the cantilever (the best you can). Yup it's a bitch to see on some of these headshell's and Cart shapes. Set it and go back to it later go slowly.

A Lose  base not good as is lose bearings in play will chatter.
VTA , if somewhere to level in the arm you should be fine use a lined index card. set at the headshell area since some tonearms have a tapered tube.
The arc setting is the overhang and is what is important as is the tracking weight too. Anti-skate the minimum is enough as it changes across the record anyway. I have used a grooveless record to set it which always came out at a higher setting than minimum and heard no difference. You don't need to skew the cantilever at all.
The Baerwald setting is supposed to have the lowest distortion accross the whole record.

Unless the tonearm is toasted..............

Good luck!


Letitroll98

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Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #10 on: 14 Jan 2018, 01:25 am »
The Conrad Hoffman site has an arc protractor generator that can be used for any arm in existence if you have the effective length, and any alignment possible.  He has Baerwold and Stevenson as well as a custom window to make any two points your heart desires.

http://www.conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm

He has a bunch of other cool free stuff as well, the generator is about four or five down, you download the generator, read the instructions, and away you go.  I recommend using heavy photo paper, glossy works for me, you may like matte.  There's a round hole printed out, I recommend an exacto knife cutting an X across the O which gives you a perfectly centered opening.

WireNut

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #11 on: 14 Jan 2018, 03:00 am »
Hi Den and everyone posting in this tread.
All you guy’s are spot on with your recommendations.
I thank you all so much.

I’m very anal about setting up my TT. As a retired machinist I even put my Interapid test indicator back to work as an accurate why to help
me adjust VTA height(s) and I also use my precision gage blocks to help in getting the arm level as a stating point.

I do Azimuth by ear mostly, as well as anti-skating.

A test LP will help me quite a bit, I think. I plan on purchasing the HI-FI news test LP.

The odd thing is all this ssssibilance trouble I’m having seems to have started right around the same time I started experimenting with
DIY record cleaning solutions based on a chemist formula on other forums. 

Don’t quote me on this because I think his formula is correct if using an RCM but I’ve had troubles with the formula in my manual cleaning process.

I’ve experimented with the formula alot and I think I have it under control for manual cleaning.

The thing is, I can’t say his formula is the problem I’m having with sssss.

The problem just so happened to start right around the same time I started experimenting with the formula.

It maybe nothing more then a coincidence from a failing stylus.




Or, is it possible that I’m getting my LP’s so clean that there is excessive friction between the LP and stylus.

Sounds crazy but is it possible.



I’ve had a lot of white fuzz buildup on my stylus(s) lately causing distortion/mistracking.



Is it the DIY record cleaning solution or something else?  I don’t know at this time.


Sooner or later I’ll get this figured out and be back up and spinning LP’s.



One other thing. I’ll most likely draw up my own protractor with autocad or other software to be sure it’s 100% accurate.



Steve.











I don't know what is causing this white fuzz buildup but it is a real PITA.



bacobits1

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #12 on: 14 Jan 2018, 03:22 am »
Never seen that much fuzzzzz. Something is up with that  cleaning fluid.
Ortofon blue?

FullRangeMan

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Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #13 on: 14 Jan 2018, 03:53 am »
A few years ago I see an guy in an vinyl pressing plant saying the black matter today are bad and no more pure vinyl, they add other cheap stuff to vinyl and even reclycle vinyl, this cleaning fluid may be reacting to an these add materials.

WireNut

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #14 on: 14 Jan 2018, 04:03 am »
Never seen that much fuzzzzz. Something is up with that  cleaning fluid.
Ortofon blue?

 I know. I've been trying to pin point what's causing it, but know definitive answer so far.

I did read somewhere recently, if I remember correctly, that a failing stylus may cut into the groove walls causing white fuzz.

Why it would be white rather then black like the vinyl color is beyond me.

I'll look for that info and post it asap.


WireNut

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #15 on: 14 Jan 2018, 04:22 am »
I was see an guy in an vinyl pressing plant saying the black matter today are bad and no more pure vinyl, they add other cheap stuff to vinyl and even reclycle vinyl, this cleaning fluid may be reacting to an these add materials.

FULLRANGEMAN,

I agree there is something to this. I've read several documents from professionals in the industry that state there are
plastizier's and mold release agents that are never removed after the pressing process even after the QC process.

It is suggested that these agents may come to the surface of vinyl over time causing a waxy build-up difficult to remove.

Since most of my LP's are from the 70's-90's I have know idea what they have been cleaned / treated with in the past.

This could be the problem i'm having.

I'm taking it one step at a time hoping to find the problem.




Letitroll98

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Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #16 on: 14 Jan 2018, 01:33 pm »
Could the fuzz come from whatever you're drying the records with?

WireNut

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #17 on: 14 Jan 2018, 06:39 pm »

Could the fuzz come from whatever you're drying the records with?


 I thought the same so I cut out using any micro fiber cloths. Now I just pat the LP's a little with a micro fiber pad and let them air dry.
I also cut out using Isopropyl alcohol in the mixer which was only at 5% dilution.

For my manual cleaning process Trinton X-100 surfactant is to thick so I stop using that as well.

I have better luck using Tergitol 15-S-9 surfactant at 0.1% dilution. It rises off much better then Triton.

After cleaning with Tergitol 15-S-9 the LP's look completely spotless and kinda dry IMO.

I'm wondering if there's to much friction between the LP and Stylus so my next batch of cleaner will use --
500 ml Distilled H20, Tergitol 15-S-9 (water based) at 0.1% dilution, Tergitol 15-S-3 (oil based as lubricant) at a 0.05% dilution, no IPA and no quat.

I picked up several used LP's last night and will try out the new mixer asap.

*Scotty*

Re: Ssssibilance / Mistracking
« Reply #18 on: 14 Jan 2018, 10:42 pm »
If you rinse the records with distilled/deionized water you can let them air dry and be sure that there is nothing at all left behind on the record. This is SOP when dealing with lab ware that must have no detergent residue left on it. For lab ware a triple rinse is required to avoid potential contamination problem with analysis results.
Scotty