Double runs of speaker cable anyone?

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Delacroix

Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« on: 10 Jan 2018, 12:44 am »
The recent posting about biwiring a pair of Vons had in it, I think, mention of combining cables into single runs and adding another run for purposes of biwiring. Of course, I might be totally imagining that part but somehow it got me thinking (always dangerous, particularly when I have some time on my hands). That let to me searching and naturally, I found mention of this exact topic on A'gon where some folks claim that doubling up the runs of cables from amp to speakers seemed to improve sound.

So, I use a pair of Von S biwire cables on my Annis, but I have a pair of good speaker cables they replaced just sitting around in the 'I'll sell them one day' pile. These are not a biwire set, just a single run, and it got me thinking, why not try them as an extra run to the uppers? So now I've wired them up - meaning I kept the regular biwires as before but added a pair of single runs from the amps to the uppers of my speakers. I can't say I'm hearing night and day differences, or even dusk and dawn. In fact, at first I thought nothing at all had changed but having gone back and forth a couple of times, I might be hearing something a little more pleasing - maybe a tad more detail and body...maybe!  Could it be imagination?  Yes, certainly could be, it's difficult to do quick changes to check...but I  certainly can't hear an obvious downside...anyone else try?

Of course, the mad scientist in me wants to know if perhaps the new additions are sonically different and just changing the sound of the uppers a bit. So maybe I should take them off the uppers and move them to the woofer module. Maybe I should combine the biwires into one module and leave the 'new' cables on their own on the other?  Maybe get another pair and double up both modules!! Maybe that means double biwires is the path to follow? Or maybe I should just get a life!!!

If you have the opportunity to try it, why not give it a go and let us know what you hear?  I  know the thought of having to buy double the speaker wire, never mind putting up with the "now you've really gone mad" comments from others will be a deterrent, and am sure some lab folks will lecture us on how this cannot do anything,  but if you have the opportunity to try,  let's do a quick crowd-check to find out what other VSA owners hear. Could be fun.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jan 2018, 01:13 am »
On my FR driver I use the QED Silver anniv 2,5mm ten times cable of the year at Hifi-Choice, on the positive pole I biffed it w/a additional use of one leg of SUPRA 10mm copper, by Louis and CanadaRob recommendation.

So I rec double cables if they are compatibles in capacitances and mainly in musical results.

Sandrock

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jan 2018, 06:59 pm »
Delacroix, you pose an interesting question.
Have a look under "Any owner's of the VR 2's still out there" thread and on page 2 you will see/read my several posts regarding by-wiring of my VR-2's with pictures.
All I can say is that it is very well worth doing......
Check it out.
Cheers,
Sandrock

Delacroix

Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #3 on: 13 Jan 2018, 03:43 am »
Hi Sandrock -- I think it was your original post that got me thinking along these lines.  Am surprised more folks have not expressed a view, even to dismiss the whole idea.

WGH

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #4 on: 13 Jan 2018, 04:02 am »
I still use a double run of Kimber 4VS. Each run has an aggregate wire size of 2-13 AWG, a double run has an aggregate wire size of 2-10 AWG connectors. 10 AWG is the sweet spot for me, any less and the very low bass is attenuated. "Temple Caves" from Mickey Hart's Planet Drum is a good test, if the bass drum doesn't fill the room then something is wrong.

Sandrock

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #5 on: 16 Jan 2018, 04:58 am »

Hello Delacroix, I am in complete agreement with you in that it is strange that there has been no comments over using/trying the By-Wire for the Vons! All I can say is that I am very pleased with the By-Wire's and it is the way to go for sure. I am also in the middle of completing 2 more tweaks. As you can see in the pictures currently I am using a 5 lbs ankle weight on each speaker top. It has again made a noticeable improvement so I am having made a bag for each top and insert perhaps 10 lbs of lead shot (see picture) purchased from Bass Pro's shop near me. I am waiting for the finished bags to be completed. I will start off with 5 lbs and add as needed till I get to the sweet spot. The other thing I am waiting on is (see picture) Isolate it Sorbothane hemispheres bumpers. I have wood floors with a craw space underneath so I need to de-couple the Vons from the floor and I think that Sorbothane might very well do the trick.
So that has brought you up to date with my tweaks and improvements. All which do not cost very much money but do make a big improvement to the sound.
Happy listening my friend, happy listening.....















JLM

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #6 on: 16 Jan 2018, 12:54 pm »
In nearly 50 years I have yet to find a tweak (defined as a 'cheap' add-on) that works. 

Recently I converted my entire system to balanced gear/cable to lower the noise level and avoid all the stupid cable voodoo.

When it comes to speaker cables get good connectors (suggest clamping banana) and run 14 - 16 gauge wire (no need for fancy metallurgy).  Refer to:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-and-audio-interconnects

BigSwede

Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Jan 2018, 01:47 pm »
The last thing I want to do is add yet another variable to an already ridiculously complex system.

es347

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Jan 2018, 04:15 pm »
In nearly 50 years I have yet to find a tweak (defined as a 'cheap' add-on) that works. 

Recently I converted my entire system to balanced gear/cable to lower the noise level and avoid all the stupid cable voodoo.

When it comes to speaker cables get good connectors (suggest clamping banana) and run 14 - 16 gauge wire (no need for fancy metallurgy).  Refer to:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-and-audio-interconnects


..no offense but don’t have Audioholics high on my credibility list.  Not to start yet another cable war but yes there is a sonic difference in cables.  Call me crazy but I and other fellow crazies have confirmed it more than once.  And for the record, I actually happen to have EE degree thanks to Purdue University...so there

gammajo

Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Jan 2018, 04:55 pm »
Herbies Gliders work great under standard VSA spikes on wood suspended floor, plus he has a set to pucks specifically designed to go between the upper and bass modules for VR4 and VR5 that made good difference as well.

Audiophile

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Jan 2018, 09:06 pm »
Herbies Gliders work great under standard VSA spikes on wood suspended floor, plus he has a set to pucks specifically designed to go between the upper and bass modules for VR4 and VR5 that made good difference as well.

I’ll 2nd this recommendation. I have the Herbies Upgrade for the VSA VR-4 and VR-5. Nice improvement.

Sandrock

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #11 on: 27 Jan 2018, 02:11 am »
Wow, I am finding this topic so very interesting. Especially after reading JLM's recent post and to quote him "in nearly 50 years I have yet to find a tweak (defined as a 'cheap add-on) that works" astounds me! JLM, you must be a fake-news republican to make that statement! The Audio industry has move on in a positive direction "tweaks and all" in that time frame but it would seem that perhaps you might not have moved very far from its inception for some reason. I respect your opinion and to have divergent views. We all have them from time to time. But what you are pontificating seems so misguided and not part of the general accepted principles of Audio. Especially after 50 years. Perhaps your hearing is causing you a problem or that you might have an advanced stage of Tinnitus. I am not trying to disparage you in any way quite the contrary.  I recommend that you might want to re evaluate your hearing technics.
BTW, the "Ren and Stempy videos you posted are laughable. These guys have no clue and no idea what they are talking about. Their lack of sonic understanding coupled with their lack of actual listening experience is appalling. Especially given their so called engineering credentials. Foo ee.....
I am at least pleased to read that you changed out your single-ended for balanced cables shows that in some small way you are trying to overcome your "stupid cable voodoo" and are willing to try something outside your comfort zone, congratulations.....

ES347 is right! "Audioholics are not very credible"  And I agree in that there is  a sonic difference between cables and 50 years have proven beyond a reasonable doubt of that 'fact"
In conclusion, I do not want to rain any yours or anyone else's parade, that it not my intention. My sincere apologies if it might seem like I have but I felt compelled to set the record straight and focus on "facts' not "fake-faxs".....yeah I know!!!!
Happy reading my friends and above all happy listening to all.
Enjoy your "tweaks" and the improvements they bring.
« Last Edit: 27 Jan 2018, 04:57 am by Sandrock »

FullRangeMan

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #12 on: 27 Jan 2018, 02:39 am »
Not to start yet another cable war but yes there is a sonic difference in cables.

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #13 on: 27 Jan 2018, 04:19 am »
... Perhaps your hearing is causing you a problem or that you might have an advanced stage of tendinitis.

There is a difference between tinnitus and tendinitis in the medical world.

Best,
Anand.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #14 on: 27 Jan 2018, 04:34 am »
Oops

Tone Depth

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #15 on: 27 Jan 2018, 04:45 am »
A point of correction of your terminology: The term is bi-wire as in two wires.

All I can say is that I am very pleased with the By-Wire's and it is the way to go for sure.

Sandrock

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #16 on: 27 Jan 2018, 04:59 am »
Oops is right......
Made the change, thanks for spotting it.

JLM

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #17 on: 27 Jan 2018, 11:38 am »
Figured my opinions wouldn't be welcomed here, but wanted to try.  Well I am a old 'speaker guy' who highly values the listening room (have a dedicated study shaped as a Cardas Golden Cuboid) and quickly dismiss most speakers.  Been accused of putting too much emphasis on principles and theories rather than simply listening.  But as an licensed engineer also see science more as a problem solving methodology than facts to be blindly accepted and quoted.  OTOH we see and hear what we want and most audiophiles are 'big game hunters' who enjoy the continual hunt, then showing off the latest prizes, more than simply enjoying the reward (listening to music). 

Yes I've heard differences in cables.  Two years ago posted a comparison of 9 USB cables (3 didn't fully work properly and could hear differences in the remaining 6, but they were subtle).  When was the last time you read of a truly scientific cable comparison?  Years ago was with a group that compared two $1000 speaker cables (one was nearly invisibly small in a clear sheath, the other looked like a silver garden hose).  As you might guess the thin one lacked bass but that allowed for more treble to be revealed.  Which was better?  Which was affecting the sound of the rest of the system less?  What is the wire inside your components, or walls for that matter, like?  Just saying that there are much bigger fish to fry in audio than the wires that connect our components.  It's in that vain that I posted the audioholics link.

Most home audiophiles seek to be entertained, either by hunting, bragging, or believing/hearing what they want (including colorations, exaggerations, and/or omissions).  Goes back to believing/hearing what we want.  Not saying we all have to have mega-buck systems, heck I've been down scaling over the years as disposable income has gone up based on changing preferred genres (small jazz/classical ensembles), mellowing tastes (lower spls), technology shifts/improves, shifting personal values, and learning more. 

es347

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Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #18 on: 27 Jan 2018, 03:18 pm »
..I have installed 1/2” sorbothane discs between the bass and M/T cabinets on my VR5 Anniversaries...they sit on CMS Rize footers.  The improvement was dramatic..

I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Double runs of speaker cable anyone?
« Reply #19 on: 27 Jan 2018, 04:22 pm »

..no offense but don’t have Audioholics high on my credibility list.  Not to start yet another cable war but yes there is a sonic difference in cables.  Call me crazy but I and other fellow crazies have confirmed it more than once.  And for the record, I actually happen to have EE degree thanks to Purdue University...so there

I agree.  I have found differences in XLR's for sure.  Also, my magnepans sound better with 10g wire as opposed to 16g.  I also did a shoot out with some friends with 4 USB cables and they all sounded significantly different.  2 of the cables were unbearably bright sounding.  1 cable was dark and veiled. Cable differences are clearly system dependent.

But I do agree with JLM, most cheap tweaks that I have tried have not worked for me.