[firedog]

I think if you read the quotes from John Swenson (the designer) earlier in the thread it might give you a clue. In short, he says there are types of noise that reach the DAC receiver and negatively affect SQ, even on a DAC not using USB 5V power.

Like some other DACs, the Auralic Vega buffers the USB input, reclocks everything with a very accurate clock, and doesn't use the USB power leg.  So I'm puzzled as to why the Regen would make a difference in that case.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that you're hearing a difference - merely trying to identify a reason for those differences.

What am I missing?  (Likely much, given the late hour and lack of caffeine...)

Thanks!

[vonnie123]

I've ordered one which will come from the second batch end of next month.  Shared a couple of nice emails with Alex regarding the product.  I plan to install the Regen between my JRiver Id server/renderer and Wyred4Sound DAC-2.

[jtwrace]

I've ordered one which will come from the second batch end of next month.  Shared a couple of nice emails with Alex regarding the product.  I plan to install the Regen between my JRiver Id server/renderer and Wyred4Sound DAC-2.

Let us know what you think when you get it.

[HAL]

This looks interesting from a few aspects.

I have the iFi iUSB Power between the music sever and DAC.  Was going to try the iUSB with the new Meridian Explorer 2 DAC and some others to see what happens.  This is even less expensive than the iUSB. 

Heard the Meridian MQA DAC at Axpona in their room with MQA files and very good sound with their stand alone DAC using the same circuit, but with better PS. 

Would be interesting to compare the iUSB and Regen with a few DAC's.

[jtwrace]

This looks interesting from a few aspects.

I have the iFi iUSB Power between the music sever and DAC.  Was going to try the iUSB with the new Meridian Explorer 2 DAC and some others to see what happens.  This is even less expensive than the iUSB. 

Heard the Meridian MQA DAC at Axpona in their room with MQA files and very good sound with their stand alone DAC using the same circuit, but with better PS. 

Would be interesting to compare the iUSB and Regen with a few DAC's.

They're very different devices though.  What the REGEN does is pretty amazing IMO. 


From John Sweson the designer:


The REGEN, is at it's core a USB hub. All hubs actually contain two USB interfaces and a full blown USB protocol engine. It is not just working at the analog level, it is actually receiving the data from the DAC, putting it in a buffer and retransmitting (and the other way for the packets from the DAC).

The upshot is that the regen DOES generate packet noise but I have tried to optimize the PDN so the packet noise is very low, so the quality of the signal going to the DAC is very high.

As I mentioned before it was actually the regen where I first spotted the packet noise in the first place. Drastically reducing that by optimizing the PDN is what made the regen into such a good sounding source.

There seems to be some mis understanding of all this, so I will try and say it succinctly.

In a DAC the packets coming in on the USB bus are not continuous, there is significant time in-between each packet. Thus the processing of these packets produces noise on the power supply and ground plane that come in bursts, I am calling this "packet noise". Part of this noise is determined by the USBprotocol engine and is going to be constant for a particular DAC.

The "PHY" part of the receiver (which may be in a separate chip) is in charge of converting the analog USB bus signals into digital words sent to the protocol engine is what is susceptible to the condition of USB signal, its "Signal Integrity" (SI). The lower the SI he harder the PHY has to work, which produces greater packet noise. If the SI is very good the packets noise from the PHY is less than that from the protocol engine. As the SI degrades the packet noise from the PHY can dominate.

Remember this is what happens INSIDE the DAC. At this point there aren't any DACs that have been specifically optimizing this, it's way too new as a specific concept to design to. BUT the best DACs DO optimize this to some degree, whether by trial and listening or as a by-product of optimizing for something else. Remember this is something I have just been looking into my self in the last couple months, it is not something that is universally agreed to as something that needs to be optimized in DACs, it is going to take a LOT of research to find out what is going on here and how this affects sound quality. Please don't start getting upset at your favorite DAC vendor because they are not doing this.

The REGEN is designed to provide a very high SI to the DAC'sUSB PHY, thus decreasing the PHY part of the packet noise. The packet noise from the protocol engine is always still going to be there. THAT is determined by the DAC design.

Since the regen has its own PHYs and protocol engine it is ALSO susceptible to the SI on ITS input. I have spent a lot of time working on the design and board layout to minimize this packet noise but it is still there. The impedance of the "Power Delivery Network" (PDN) over a broad range of frequencies determines the amplitude of the packet noise produced by the hub chip. So everything else being equal (a specific source computer, cable etc) decreasing the PDN impedance decreases packet noise the regen generates, which improves the SI of the signal sent to theDAC, which decreases the packet noise generated by the DAC, which improves the sound quality.

It is important to note that the packet noise in the DAC is generated inside the DAC by its own components processing theUSB data, NOT coming from the outside world over the USB cable or power supply of the DAC. The impedance (over a broad frequency range) of the PS is PART of the PDN impedance so it does have an affect on the packet noise. This is critical to understand, the impedance of the power supply is far more important than the noise level of the power supply, the packet noise is generated by the DAC itself, NOT coming in off the external supply, since the supply is an important part of the PDN impedance, the supply impedance is more important than it's actual noise level.

This is contrary to what everybody seems to be doing, all I ever hear is people looking at the "ripple value" or noise level and using that to choose between power supplies. This is the wrong thing to look at. Unfortunately NOBODY gives you an impedance VS frequency chart for their PS, so there really is no good way to choose a supply based on spec sheets. Better quality supplies also tend to have lower impedances, so there is a fairly good correlation between noise level and low impedance, but it is not guaranteed. I can come with several ways to build very low noise supplies which have a fairly high output impedance, which will sound bad driving a regen or a DAC.

That is about as succinct as I can make it, I hope it is understandable.
John S.

[HAL]

jtwrace,
Understand.  I read that introduction.

TomS has one as well and said he liked it in his setup. 

The Explorer 2 DAC is USB bus powered.  From the description, should have a significant effect on the sound quality.

I verified with the Meridian rep that as long as you feed bit perfect data to the Explorer 2 DAC, the MQA function will work with a music server.  This should not prevent the bit perfect transfer required as does the iUSB. 

[Big Red Machine]

I placed my order for one.  I wonder if it will conflict with my TotalDac USB filtered cable.  Maybe I will try it with and w/o the TotalDac cable to see in June.

[jtwrace]

I placed my order for one.  I wonder if it will conflict with my TotalDac USB filtered cable.  Maybe I will try it with and w/o the TotalDac cable to see in June.

It will work with it...

[groovybassist]

I've been running my Regen since yesterday afternoon and am really digging it. The cost/performance ratio is surprising. The positive benefits in my system are easy to hear and across the board. For the record I use an Auralic Aries and my dac is an RWA Bellina.

[HAL]

Guess mine is in the May batch from the website order page.

Will see what happens.

[sfox7076]

I have not had the amazing benefits that the others have reported, but tonight I will put it on my LPS and see what happens.  I will be dropping to 5 volts as my DAC does not need to see power.

[hifial]

Big Red Machine take special note of the TotalDAC USB Cable.

Here is a repost of my impressions on CA from 4/19.


                                  HERE ARE MY INITIAL IMPRESSIONS OF THE REGEN!

    First a little background. I turn off all unnecessary items in my Mac Mini. I have a MMK installed and use a JS-2 to power the Mac Mini and my e20 MK III .082 Clock exaSound DAC. I also used my Hynes Power Supply to power the Regen. I use HQ Player and all music files regardless of rate, PCM-DSD, are up-sampled to DSD 256 (quad DSD). My comments are with the TotalDAC USB Cable unless noted.

    The Regen is VERY INTERESTING. Think of it as a HEPA Air Filter for Audio. All impurities are removed to 99.97% pure.

    At times it is very obvious and at other times it is very subtle. You can hear an improvement right after its been turned on but you can hear it steadily improve the more time it has to run in. Obviously up to a point. So do not take how it sounds right out of the box as how it will ultimately sound.

    Better imaging and sound-stage. Attack, transients and instrument tone are improved to the point that it is almost (spooky at times) lifelike with the best recordings. Subtleties can become more noticeable and tonally correct. Drumsticks striking each other actually sound like wood, real wood, like it was live in the room as an example. A clarinet has the air its supposed to have. You just do not know what some instruments should sound like on some recordings until the Regen is in place. Before the Regen you know something is not quiet right subconsciously when hearing the recording...but once the Regen makes it right...my head is a bobbing and my feet are a tapping...I feel the music, and that is what its all about. How the sound moves you, inside. But it first has to sound right.

    So it helps all recordings but the better the recordings are the more you get out of it. It is not going to take a mediocre recording and make it stellar but it will allow you to better hear what is really on it. Though the best recordings are stellar.

    Now that is with using my TotalDAC USB with it. And I suspect that there may be a better fit to use with the Regen. Then again...

    When I tried a VERY generic throw away USB cable (really poor) with and without the Regen it was better with but not as good as using the TotalDAC USB cable just by its self. However can a decent quality USB cable with the Regen give the TotalDAC USB by its self a run for its money, Maybe, I can not say as of yet. If I find one or can borrow one I will let you know.

    I was really looking foreword to see how the Regen would sound with the Corning USB vs the Regen with the TotalDAC USB.

    But no real luck with my Corning USB Optical Cable. If it works at all (mostly 99% not) it is very short, a few seconds to 10 seconds at best. I will check into getting a replacement this week.

    Again this is with only with a short amount of time listening so I will follow up after more time is spent.

    However I can say at this point that the Regen is a freaking steal at its price vs performance ratio. But do not tell Alex and John that least they raise the price.

    Audiophiles spend thousands of dollars on one piece of equipment to get the kind of improvements that the Regen gives.

    As aways YMMV and this is MHO.

System:(There are some additions/ Uptone Audio MMK replaces the Mac Mini power supply and JS-2 Power Supply to power the Mac Mini and exaSound DAC).
    2013 Mac Mini i7 2.3GHz Quad-core-16GB RAM-128GB SSD-Boot Camped with W8 and Yosemite-HQ Player-J River MC-Pure Music-Audirvana Plus-Seagate HD>Thunderbolt>Mac Mini>USB 3>TotalDAC USB Cable>exaSound e20 MK III .082 clock>Merrill Audio Veritas Ncore NC1200 Mono Amps>B&W 802D>Cabling=High Fidelity CT1E interconnect with Cardas Clear balanced adapters - High Fidelity CT1E with custom CT1E Jumpers for bi-wire-Triode Wire Labs 10 Plus PC for Amps and Mac Mini>The Mac,HD,e20 are all on Synergistic Research Tranquility Base all supported by Stillpoints Ultra Mini-The B&W and Veritas are supported by Stillpoints Ultra SS.

[sfox7076]

Been listening for 3-4 hours with it on the LPS.  I think the Regen just isn't working well in my system.  I am using a Mac Mini on an LPS, with a Dana Cable USB cable, the Regen directly (though the supplied adapter) to the Lampizator Big 7.  I can maybe hear some additional detail in certain songs, but the Regen makes the songs fatiguing after time.  That is something I have never said before with the Lampizator. 

Other stuff in the chain are NCores to Dana Cable speaker cables and Salk Exotica 3 speakers.

[Big Red Machine]

Al, was the regen before or after the TotalDac USB in the chain?

[loving_it]

I have tried atleast 9 USB cables and the Totaldac always comes out ontop , I would be really surprised if the Regan would be better 

[Big Red Machine]

I have tried atleast 9 USB cables and the Totaldac always comes out ontop , I would be really surprised if the Regan would be better

Well it has been used in combination with above and with good results.  I reread the TotalUsb webpage and it really does not describe what it does.  I was concerned it would be more of the same and redundant but it probably does something else and together it might be the bees knees. 

[loving_it]

Well it has been used in combination with above and with good results.  I reread the TotalUsb webpage and it really does not describe what it does.  I was concerned it would be more of the same and redundant but it probably does something else and together it might be the bees knees.

The totaldac  is a EMI noise filter  Data and Power

[Big Red Machine]

The totaldac  is a EMI noise filter  Data and Power

So adding a regen circuit would not be redundant.  I am painfully waiting for the next batch to be built next month before I can find out how it functions in my system.

[jtwrace]

I have tried atleast 9 USB cables and the Totaldac always comes out ontop , I would be really surprised if the Regan would be better

Don't be so sure about that. What the Regen does is very different.

[loving_it]

Big Red Machine take special note of the TotalDAC USB Cable.

Here is a repost of my impressions on CA from 4/19.


                                  HERE ARE MY INITIAL IMPRESSIONS OF THE REGEN!

    First a little background. I turn off all unnecessary items in my Mac Mini. I have a MMK installed and use a JS-2 to power the Mac Mini and my e20 MK III .082 Clock exaSound DAC. I also used my Hynes Power Supply to power the Regen. I use HQ Player and all music files regardless of rate, PCM-DSD, are up-sampled to DSD 256 (quad DSD). My comments are with the TotalDAC USB Cable unless noted.

    The Regen is VERY INTERESTING. Think of it as a HEPA Air Filter for Audio. All impurities are removed to 99.97% pure.

    At times it is very obvious and at other times it is very subtle. You can hear an improvement right after its been turned on but you can hear it steadily improve the more time it has to run in. Obviously up to a point. So do not take how it sounds right out of the box as how it will ultimately sound.

    Better imaging and sound-stage. Attack, transients and instrument tone are improved to the point that it is almost (spooky at times) lifelike with the best recordings. Subtleties can become more noticeable and tonally correct. Drumsticks striking each other actually sound like wood, real wood, like it was live in the room as an example. A clarinet has the air its supposed to have. You just do not know what some instruments should sound like on some recordings until the Regen is in place. Before the Regen you know something is not quiet right subconsciously when hearing the recording...but once the Regen makes it right...my head is a bobbing and my feet are a tapping...I feel the music, and that is what its all about. How the sound moves you, inside. But it first has to sound right.

    So it helps all recordings but the better the recordings are the more you get out of it. It is not going to take a mediocre recording and make it stellar but it will allow you to better hear what is really on it. Though the best recordings are stellar.

    Now that is with using my TotalDAC USB with it. And I suspect that there may be a better fit to use with the Regen. Then again...

    When I tried a VERY generic throw away USB cable (really poor) with and without the Regen it was better with but not as good as using the TotalDAC USB cable just by its self. However can a decent quality USB cable with the Regen give the TotalDAC USB by its self a run for its money, Maybe, I can not say as of yet. If I find one or can borrow one I will let you know.

    I was really looking foreword to see how the Regen would sound with the Corning USB vs the Regen with the TotalDAC USB.

    But no real luck with my Corning USB Optical Cable. If it works at all (mostly 99% not) it is very short, a few seconds to 10 seconds at best. I will check into getting a replacement this week.

    Again this is with only with a short amount of time listening so I will follow up after more time is spent.

    However I can say at this point that the Regen is a freaking steal at its price vs performance ratio. But do not tell Alex and John that least they raise the price.

    Audiophiles spend thousands of dollars on one piece of equipment to get the kind of improvements that the Regen gives.

    As aways YMMV and this is MHO.

System:(There are some additions/ Uptone Audio MMK replaces the Mac Mini power supply and JS-2 Power Supply to power the Mac Mini and exaSound DAC).
    2013 Mac Mini i7 2.3GHz Quad-core-16GB RAM-128GB SSD-Boot Camped with W8 and Yosemite-HQ Player-J River MC-Pure Music-Audirvana Plus-Seagate HD>Thunderbolt>Mac Mini>USB 3>TotalDAC USB Cable>exaSound e20 MK III .082 clock>Merrill Audio Veritas Ncore NC1200 Mono Amps>B&W 802D>Cabling=High Fidelity CT1E interconnect with Cardas Clear balanced adapters - High Fidelity CT1E with custom CT1E Jumpers for bi-wire-Triode Wire Labs 10 Plus PC for Amps and Mac Mini>The Mac,HD,e20 are all on Synergistic Research Tranquility Base all supported by Stillpoints Ultra Mini-The B&W and Veritas are supported by Stillpoints Ultra SS.

I look forward to your findings once you get a better USB cable