Technical advice regarding UPS or Power regulator for NuPrime DAC and AMP

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 764 times.

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
Friends,

As you may have read, I have the DAC-10 and ST-10 on the way.  My previous NuForce DDA-100 died, and I am 90% sure the culprit was a thunderstorm evening with lots of voltage changes and even a black out for a couple of hours.

So, I want to protect the new equipment.  But I want the protection to not get in the way of the actual electronics within the equipment.

Let me be blunt here.  I want science and science only! I am not looking into 'this magically betters sound'.  I am talking about real electronics and electrical physics here.

So, with that in mind, here are my questions:
- Would it make sense at all to install a UPS for those times (that happen here) when there is power failure and a fraction of a second the power is then restored (probably at much higher voltage for a fraction of a second as well), just to prevent that fatigue?
- UPSs and some voltage regulators output square waves.  Are NuPrime DACs and AMPs able to work with such waves?  I ask because, for instance, a UPS put after a square-generating device is usually not recommended.  May be it is the same here?
- Most affordable UPSs have PWM Sine Wave when on battery.  Same question, is the NuPrime equipment good with those or better to avoid it?
- In case of the Power regulator / conditioner / surge protector I have access to (please remember my market is very limited) I have no information about the wave form or any other info.  I know there is a link to a nice surge protector in the FAQs, but I have not been able to find that locally.  Will this serve as a replacement? https://www.tripplite.com/regulador-de-voltaje-2000va-regulaci%C3%B3n-autom%C3%A1tica-de-voltaje-con-protecci%C3%B3n-contra-sobretensiones-nema-5-15r-120v~VR2008R/

Sorry for the link being in Spanish, the product is not available in the US store, which makes me wonder if it is the kind of crap they send to us in Latin America that they would not sell in the US because it would not pass the minimum regulations :(

Again, I don't want this to turn into another thread thrown into the intergalactic wastebin, this is not about magic, or voodoo, its about waves, power and electronics response to those waves.

Thanks a lot,
Best regards,
Rafa.

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 790
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
Tripp-Lite in general makes good stuff. I have a couple of their basic power conditioners and an isolation transformer.

The one you linked is a voltage regular, but bear in mind it only works within a specified range. Does your area typically have moderate over-voltages or under-voltages (typically called "brown outs")? If so, then this device would be good. But if you're mostly concerned with heavy spikes during storms, then the regulation is a feature you don't need to pay for.

I will let Jason (rustydoglim) speak in about how their amps handle square wave UPS's.

Have you considered digging through ebay for Furman or SurgeX power conditioners? They are very popular brands, and even if not available directly in your area I'm sure there must be some online sellers willing to ship.

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
Thanks for the input.

Everything sent will go through customs that charge 50% tax and over that 14% VAT.  No matter the route it comes.  So if it is not sold locally, its not worth it :( .

Rafa.

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
By the way, I have this one as well, already bought, but since its older I was hesitant.  Maybe its enough?
(The link is to an online sell, as Tripp Lite has reused the model's name and cannot find a direct link)
http://www.studioliquidators.com/Liquidations/Photography/Tripp%20Lite%20LC-1800.html

Evoke

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 131
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
By the way, I have this one as well, already bought, but since its older I was hesitant.  Maybe its enough?
(The link is to an online sell, as Tripp Lite has reused the model's name and cannot find a direct link)
http://www.studioliquidators.com/Liquidations/Photography/Tripp%20Lite%20LC-1800.html


This is a really good article. It's simply about power without a focus on application: https://www.tripplite.com/support/articles/articleid/commonpowerproblems


All of these voltage issues are problems. Of all examples, boats have issues in international ports with dirty power and RVs that share circuits in RV parks often see voltage dips into the 90's. On an amusing side-note, I had a friend once who plugged his TV into the AC outlet connected to the wall dimmer. Hmmmm. No - it didn't control the brightness  :lol:   


I hope this offers a good overview. If I had to make a sweeping, controversial generalization - systems that address these issues, or the ones you're most likely to encounter, that are current rated to peaks of your gear will do a great job. From there - it's a big conversation about the audiophile feedback on the matter.


Mark

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
Thanks for the article! Very instructive indeed. Regrettably, the stabilizers / conditioners are not included in the nice chart at the bottom of the article.  I'd assume that they are also good for brown out and swell?

So, does it have any merit to try and purchase a UPS for the audio equipment?

As you said, I'm not looking into the audiophile input about the sound getting better with or not.  I'm talking about equipment that may be putting extra strain on the power supply because the way it outputs the wave and that sort of thing, not the quality of sound each conditioner or cable will produce.

Thanks again!
Rafa.

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 790
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
I have the LC-1800, though in a slightly different body. It's been good to me so far.

Conditioners will typically not help with brownouts or swells however.

Evoke

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 131
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
Thanks for the article! Very instructive indeed. Regrettably, the stabilizers / conditioners are not included in the nice chart at the bottom of the article.  I'd assume that they are also good for brown out and swell?

So, does it have any merit to try and purchase a UPS for the audio equipment?

As you said, I'm not looking into the audiophile input about the sound getting better with or not.  I'm talking about equipment that may be putting extra strain on the power supply because the way it outputs the wave and that sort of thing, not the quality of sound each conditioner or cable will produce.

Thanks again!
Rafa.


CAVEAT - I am NOT discussing the audiophile implications in the following conversation.



Surge protectors do not compensate for brown outs - only spikes in voltage, not dips. That said, ideal power is clean, is a stable voltage, provides the current needed, and does not have surges or sags.


In mission critical situations, such as data center servers, equipment is run off batteries through a sine wave converter. It avoids all the above problems in the context of this conversation. The line AC is only used to charge the system. This would be an Online UPS System.


Whether that is right for your needs is something you need to decide. For example - if you have lightning, you need surge protection. Maybe everything else is fine in your area. For me, I have brown outs. In 20 years I've lost 2 power supplies in a Lexicon preamp.


As with my internet which claims 99.9% reliability - it's somewhat a similar comparison. Power out of the socket here is really good. And I've had minimal problems over the years with brown outs. So would I spend a lot of money to fix the random situation? No. I don't feel, for me, that it's worth the money.


Would it be cool to have an awesome power system - heck yeah! What I think is helpful to consider is to look pragmatically at what makes the most sense for you situation. Equipment fails. Stuff happens - things we can't foresee. Prepare for that which is most critical to your system and spend the rest of the time enjoying the music.



RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
I have the LC-1800, though in a slightly different body. It's been good to me so far.

Conditioners will typically not help with brownouts or swells however.

Exactly that is the new model I was referring to.  This one probably shares somes characteristics, although in the back mine has three different banks with different noise reduction: one @50 DB, one at @60 and one with @85.

What I am not sure is if it has the new EFI and other types of cleaning the wave.

But if it boosts the signal by 14% when in 90V, why won't it help with brown outs and if it reduces the signal when up to 140V  why won't it help with Swell?

Maybe I'm missing something?

Thanks,
Rafa.

Evoke

  • Industry Contributor
  • Posts: 131
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
Exactly that is the new model I was referring to.  This one probably shares somes characteristics, although in the back mine has three different banks with different noise reduction: one @50 DB, one at @60 and one with @85.

What I am not sure is if it has the new EFI and other types of cleaning the wave.

But if it boosts the signal by 14% when in 90V, why won't it help with brown outs and if it reduces the signal when up to 140V  why won't it help with Swell?

Maybe I'm missing something?

Thanks,
Rafa.


What is the model number you are referring to. Sounds like you are talking about a line-interactive UPS system. An online UPS system doesn't face those issues.

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
Ok, let me try to explain, sorry if my English isn't clear and I am confusing things up.

- I have the option of buying either a UPS or a Voltage Regulator, but...
- I have an existing Stabilizer /Conditioner with regulator and surge protection that is somewhat old.

The model I have is on the link above: a Tripp Lite LC-1800 (but this is an older model to the newer one listed on the Tripp Lite website.
The UPSs I have access to are NOT online systems, not by a long shot.  I was thinking something like this: https://www.tripplite.com/smartpro-lcd-120v-1000va-500w-line-interactive-ups-avr-tower-usb-tel-dsl-coax-protection-8-outlets~SMART1000LCD/#pr-header-back-to-top-link

The link you sent discusses regulators and upss, but it doesn't account for Stabilizers / Conditioners, which, according to the specs, can boost the signal bellow a certain cut-off point by 14% or so up to 87V.  I was asking if this is something that is preventing a brown out, since Armaegis pointed out that something like this would not help with brownout.  Same goes for swell: if the conditioner is outputting 120V from a 140V current, then I assume it is working against Swell.  Yet, again, Armaegis suggests that this will not work for swell.

So there are two things going on here:
- UPS vs Regulator / Conditioner, which to use
- Will the one I already have (an old Tripp Lite LC-1800) be enough or do I need to go and make a new purchase.

My conditions are really less than ideal:
- we have very poor electric wiring inside the house
- we have a 220V electric heater (not a tank, those that work like gas heaters but with electricity) that when you turn on the hot water, lights flicker for a small second, and the regulator 'clicks' and changes to a different value
- if turn on the microwave, the regulator will switch (this seems odd) to a 'high' value
- we have frequent rain, and when it does, the street high voltage transformer sometimes fails and we get blackouts
- we have thunderstorms during june / july at least once a week
- we are prone to earthquakes and the security features of the local power plant turns off the electricity as soon as it senses movement

So, short of the boat scenario you described, this is more or less electrical hell over here.  Of course, I don't have the money to set up the entire house, and it is not mine, it is rented.  So I will have to live with small fixes here and there.

Hope I explained myself a little better this time around, sorry if my English is lacking for this particularly technical stuff.

Thanks,
Rafa.

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
I found the LC-1800's little brother: LC-1200 for sale locally at a reasonably good price.

This one: https://www.tripplite.com/1200w-120v-power-conditioner-automatic-voltage-regulation-avr-ac-surge-protection-4-outlets~LC1200/

Will that be good enough for the ST-10 + DAC-10?  It shares the specs of the 1800 except for being 12A instead of 15A and the noise filter is 75dB instead of 80dB.  Do you believe that will be noticeable?

I have already discarded UPS, as the PWM Sine Wave is not a good friend of linear Power Supplies from what I have read.

Thanks for any further insight,
Rafa.

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 790
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
You should be just fine with the LC-1200. Spend your savings on women and wine  :thumb:

damguz

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 30
Just a thought.  You said that you had a "Stabilizer /Conditioner with regulator and surge protection that is somewhat old", but where you using it when your Nuforce 300 went out?

I ask because, as I have read (I am an Economist not a Engeneer nor a Phycisist, so I have to rely on some online reading for most of my research), the Tripp Lite surge protection technology can stop working overtime mainly due to repeated mini surges that slowly eat at its protection (best way to put it in my layman vocabulary from what I have gathered).  Thus, if you were using it and your electronic still burned I will not trust it again with any new equipment.

For your case, I would most certainly try to put some protection prior to your new gear.  On my research I first started on Tripp-Lite site and then visited the low end of Furman power conditioners as well as Panamax $200 to $400 options but when decision time came, I just kept seeing JasonĀ“s advice and backtracked and bought the Isobar he recommended.

Hope this experience helps.

Saludos,

jea48

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 289
First place to start is with the Main electrical service earth grounding/connection. The main purpose of the main system grounding/Grounding Electrode System  is for lightning protection and to stabilize the mains voltage from high transient voltages created by nearby lightning storms and nearby lightning strikes.

How old is your home? When was the last time the electrical service was updated?

Next line of protection against voltage surges is a whole house SPD, (Surge Protection Device), that mounts to the main electrical service electrical panel.

The line of protection is an SPD plugged into the wall receptacle that feeds your audio equipment.

 Then, a UPS or Re-generator, if you so choose.

As for a UPS you want a True Power UPS. Output is the closest thing to a sign wave. They are pricey though.

RafaPolit

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 91
    • www.rafaelpolit.com
Good advice about wine, I am sure my wife will object on spending my savings on women, except if you meant her, which I'm sure you did! :P :)

Damguz, no... the old conditioner was hooked to my computer which has survived perfectly, and for which I'm buying a UPS.  I was thinking to move the conditioner to the audio system... but, as you, I read that they degrade over time, so yeah, I bought a new LC-1200.  Thanks!

Jea48, its not my house, it's a rental.  It's not very old, around 7 years.  But we don't have the strict electrical regulations you find elsewhere, and a good way to cut costs on constructions is to overlook the grounding.  Sure, they will put all the cables, but neglect to install a proper ground discharge for the entire building.  It's part of being a third world country... there are many advantages, but this is not one them.  So whole house PSD is not an option. I am going to have to live with the power conditioner / surge protector I bought for now, a true online UPS would be more expensive than my TV! :)

I take it for most of you the approach on spending is quite different, but for me this is it... I am throwing all into this new system, I cannot just purchase $1000 power cords, $500 usb cables, $10K speaker cables and $10K whole house power protection.  It just isn't my reality!

Thanks a lot!
Rafa.