Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 3649 times.

Nidri17

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 53
Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« on: 7 Aug 2016, 02:52 pm »
Was just wondering if anyone knows what NuPrime's official position is on this.
Are e.g. STA-9 and ST-10 supposed to sound better when driven balanced via XLR?
Or is the difference in sound quality negligible?

Eisener Bart

Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #1 on: 7 Aug 2016, 04:27 pm »
Was just wondering if anyone knows what NuPrime's official position is on this.
Are e.g. STA-9 and ST-10 supposed to sound better when driven balanced via XLR?
Or is the difference in sound quality negligible?

I couldn't make such experiment during the reviewing of STA-9.

Nidri17

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 53
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #2 on: 7 Aug 2016, 04:38 pm »
I couldn't make such experiment during the reviewing of STA-9.

I'm trying my ST-10 via RCA and struggling to detect any difference.
Maybe XLR is a little bit 'cleaner', but maybe that's my imagination.
That's why I was wondering what the company/designer's POV is.
Some brands make a big deal about balanced, not so NuPrime,
so perhaps that means not to worry, just use whatever you have.

Eric Gustafsson

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 67
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #3 on: 7 Aug 2016, 05:54 pm »
When it comes to MCH-K38 the sound is much  better with balanced connection.

//eric

RDavidson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2863
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #4 on: 7 Aug 2016, 05:55 pm »
Some manufacturers make a big deal of balanced circuitry because it is expensive and can provide a big benefit in noise reduction/rejection. In home audio, this can be very YMMV and people debate its usefulness (especially with respect to cost). In a studio application, balanced circuitry is pretty much essential. Now, just because a component has XLR inputs, does NOT mean it has balanced circuitry. If the manufacturer doesn't state that the component is balanced, then the XLR's are likely just run off of the RCA outputs. They're there for connectivity choice / convenience.

audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #5 on: 7 Aug 2016, 06:21 pm »
I corresponded with TDSS who service NuPrime about this issue and this is what I was told

"The fact is, even though it is perceived that Balanced cables are in some way superior to unbalanced, depending on the performance objective that is NOT a universally true concept. In pro sound or anywhere you must use a long run of line-level cable, then Balanced usually has the edge as a result of its superior low noise performance. But... the noise in question is not "self-noise," but noise contamination from the external environment (radio frequency contamination or 60Hz AC power noise from nearby wires, etc.). In such cases Balanced lines are almost always superior when it comes to the final sound.

Conversely, if protection from externally sourced noise contamination is not a need or concern, then believe it or not Unbalanced is usually better. Think about it... name me any two objects or set of conditions anywhere in the universe that are perfectly identical in every way down to the sub-atomic dimensions? You can't because there is no such thing - there are no two objects that are identical anywhere in the universe.

OK, the Input and Output stages of the Balanced signal transfer concept relies on the fact that both the Non-Inverting and Inverting signal lines be IDENTICAL to the nth degree for ultimate performance. Well, as I pointed out there is no such thing. Uh, ohh... what happens if they are not?

Well, the closer the better for sure, but there is a limit to the amount of "identical-ness" that can be achieved, and that limit is about 90db with respect to dynamic range. OK, and our NuPrime gear has specified dynamic range of at least 110dB (ST-10). Furthermore, when it comes to Balanced operation the primary specification is called the Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR). NuPrime doesn't even list that spec so we have no assurance that the CMRR will match the 110dB dynamic range - and based on most instances of CMRR, 90dB is about as good as it gets.

So, going Balanced we are potentially "throwing away" 10dB of dynamic range. That means there will be unwanted low-level signals that are "filling in" where that 10dB of silence would otherwise reside. Then there is the makeup of those unwanted signals - what are they? They will be signals from the opposite phase line that are not canceled by those of the other phase. That means signals of various frequency from the music that are artificially being being amplified as a result of the insufficient CMRR. They can either be in-phase or out of phase with respect to the primary signal that we want. If they are in phase, certain tones and harmonics will be excessively boosted. If out of phase the perceived harmonic balance will be shifted. Either way, we loose resolution and accuracy with respect to the original signal.

In light of the above we would prefer NOT to use Balanced lines unless the contamination from external noise signals requires it. In virtually all but the worst possible cases (like living next door to a radio station), a 1-meter pair of unbalanced cables will never intercept enough external noise to make going Balanced remotely advantageous."

Eric Gustafsson

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 67
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #6 on: 7 Aug 2016, 06:32 pm »
"The NuPrime MCH-K38 comes with 8 sets of RCA and true balanced XLR inputs."

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10660
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #7 on: 7 Aug 2016, 09:45 pm »
Thanks audioguy 213 for reporting from TDSS.  Very helpful when picking out gear.  And thanks RDavidson for pointing out this common issue regarding internal design.  Note that true balanced designs require doubling of circuitry.  I'd rather put my money into quality versus doubling the number of circuits.

Comparing single ended versus balanced is not easy.  Are you using the same components throughout each system?  Does each component have identical single ended and balanced circuits?  Is all the single ended and balanced cabling made up of identical wires and insulation (even if it is geometry of the single ended comes into play)?  Plus of course all the proper testing protocols (double blind/whatever) must be followed. 

audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #8 on: 7 Aug 2016, 10:04 pm »
the TDSS comments were specific to the ST-10;
so things could be different for the new models for sure.

In the past, I have definitely preferred XLR connection for any components or amps that were TRULY balanced,

larsg

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 21
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #9 on: 8 Aug 2016, 07:47 am »
DAC-10/ST-10 and DAC-10/STA-9 sounds best with RCA in my opinion. Tested with 3 different DAC-10 and 2 ST-10 and 3 STA-9.
Used Pro cables , Silver Sonic BL1 Series2 and many different AudioQuest cables.

Armaegis

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 858
  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #10 on: 8 Aug 2016, 05:42 pm »
As with all things, there's a bit of extra voodoo when considering "balanced" which is easily one of the most abused and misunderstood words in the audiophile world (right up there with Class-A). One must also consider the differences in balanced for interconnects versus amplified outputs. The quality of the ground also comes into play, because what *should* be a nice zero volt reference point rarely is (and sadly this aspect is very difficult to deal with).

Balanced, bridged, differential, blah blah blah...

Nidri17

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 53
Re: Single Ended vs. Balanced in NuPrime amps.
« Reply #11 on: 13 Aug 2016, 05:17 am »
Thanks for all the input.
I think I was brainwashed to believe that balanced is somehow automatically better.
But now my ears are telling me a different story.
I suppose all that really matters is that my current setup sounds good to me.