NuPrime Dac-9 or DAC-10 vs Hegel HD25 /// Nuprime amps vs Cherry Audio amps

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audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
Anybody familiar with the sound of Hegel's HD25 care to comment on how the NuPrime Dacs compare?

I love the "high bang for the buck" and "best ever" posts about Nuprime, but I am not sure it is fair to ask their $1300 DAC to compete with one that is twice the price and truly exceptional like the Hegel HD25.

Just wondering if anybody has comparisons of the Nuprime DACs to other excellent choices in the $2k and up category.


Cost is not an issue for me, so I don't need a $1300 DAC that performs like a $2400 one, I would rather use a more expensive one that is better (like my Hegel)-
so I am not looking for the ultimate value proposition, more trying to find the best sound.

Maybe I should stick with my DAC and try a pair of bridged STA-9s first, before thinking DAC/pre...

any thoughts welcome.

--------
I would also be curious if anyone has heard Digital Amplifier Company Cherry amps and the Nuprime stuff and cares to compare them sonically on any level.


thanks

rustydoglim

I have heard statement like this for too long: "but I am not sure it is fair to ask their $1300 DAC to compete with one that is twice the price and truly exceptional".

And whenever I have the opportunity, I will explain that the performance is somewhat related to cost but not what you think.
It all depends on how much you understand the hardware industry and audio in particular.
This is how a product price gets multiplied in any industry and typically high-end/luxury/limited volume/high service => high multiplier
So obviously luxury handbags and some very expensive high-end products retail price is 10X the manufacturing cost.

Retail price -> dealer price -> distributor price -> brand -> assmbly factory -> supplier factory -> parts cost

So typically a brand would have to contract to a so called OEM factory (and definitely include several supplier factories in the chain) to do the manufacturing and assembly. Hegel and most brands do that. It is extremely rare that a brand also owns the factory. NuPrime is one such company.  If you show me the internal of HD25, I am pretty sure the DAC board will not cost more than NuPrime DAC-10 or DAC-9 board. Based on the spec of HD25, I can guess that it would cost less.

From time to time, in our product page, we give away what exotic technique and chips are used and I can tell you our implementation is as advanced as anyone else. We are talking about limited and high-end parts, transistors, FPGA, etc.

So, why is NuPrime's product cheap? Simply because we are vertically integrated. We don't buy module from anyone else. We don't have to pay another firm for development cost. We stock parts that range from raw material to ICs to semi assembled boards. These are all overheads for other companies.  Hybrid class-D, switching and linear power supplies (it is extremely rare that we designed and built our own switching power supplies), DACs, preamps, everything are designed and manufactured in-house.
Sure, we can't do everything on our own. Sometimes we partner with another company to develop a product for technology that we don't have.

Customers benefit from our R&D and manufacturing efficiency.  We can't afford to sell a product at high price and let it sit in the warehouse for a long time.  We have to keep our factory running. 

audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
DAC - HD 25 Hegel









And for good measure, here is the Hegel H80 integrated, which I use for pre amp and power amp sections , and am considering replacing with
DAC-10 and ST-9 monos or ST-10 stero amp








This Hegel stuff sounds good - whether the parts cost is low, the R&D is good, the sound is great.

Of course, I want better, so feel free to tell me that Nuprime will kill it.


maty

-> http://www.hegel.com/products/dac/hd25

-> http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/index.php/products/dacs-and-headphone-amps/home-audio-dacs/dac-10h.html

Only the noise floor is better: -145 dB. But we do not need more than 110 dB.

In 2013/2014 Hegel HD25 yes. Now, in 2016, NuPrime DAC-10H without any doubt!


rustydoglim

People know that since 2005 when I co-founded NuForce, I have a policy of not commenting on competitors product.
And I always stated that the best way to compare is to listen for yourself.  If you don't like it, return for a refund.
I think within the NuPrime circle, for users to make casual comparison is ok, can't avoid that. But I am not comfortable of "trashing" another company's product here. Since I won't allow people to "trash" a NuPrime product in this circle, it is not ok to do that to others also.

If this topic goes too far, I will have to remove it. Sorry.

rustydoglim

Quote
Cost is not an issue for me, so I don't need a $1300 DAC that performs like a $2400 one, I would rather use a more expensive one that is better (like my Hegel)-
so I am not looking for the ultimate value proposition, more trying to find the best sound.

You already stated that your goal is to find the best sound, so you just have to listen to them and compare for yourself. There is no other way around it.

audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
No problem,

You already make valid points on shelf cost not being reflective of parts cost,

and Maty points out the evolution of digital over the past two years.

I only showed you photos of the guts because you asked me to...

I will try to give a Dac-10 and ST-10 a shot, I will get them modded by TDSS to start, maybe.

JackD

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1398
I own the DAC-10/ST-10 set and find them to be a good compliment to each other with the speakers I have used them with.  I haven't heard the DAC-9 personally, but my dealer whose ears I trust found it to be slightly on the warmer side compared to the DAC-10.  It uses a much newer model of the AKM chipset you like in the Hegel as opposed to the ESS in the DAC-10.  Unless you need the AES/EBU input on the DAC-9 the DAC-10 has more input options as well as bigger power supply.  It is just a step up in the line with a slightly different voice.  I intended to hear one by now, but just haven't gotten around to it yet.  I don't think two 9 series products together would be to my liking though one from each line together might be an interesting experiment. 

larsg

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 21
Have owned Hegel H80-H160-HD12 and listened to HD25-HD30 and H300.

Today i,m using IDA-16 in the mancave, DAC-10/ST-10 in the  living room and IDA-8 in the TVroom.

In my opinion DAC10-ST10 has better soundquality than any Hegel.
DAC-9 can compete with HD30 and IDA-8 with H160
But if I  never heard NuPrime , Hegel would have been my choice of audio gear.

rustydoglim

Thanks larsg. I am not comfortable doing a "tear down" of Hegel or any other competitor, but I think this kind of user's opinion is constructive and helpful. It is after all, subjective.

audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
Have owned Hegel H80-H160-HD12 and listened to HD25-HD30 and H300.

Today i,m using IDA-16 in the mancave, DAC-10/ST-10 in the  living room and IDA-8 in the TVroom.

In my opinion DAC10-ST10 has better soundquality than any Hegel.
DAC-9 can compete with HD30 and IDA-8 with H160
But if I  never heard NuPrime , Hegel would have been my choice of audio gear.

Thanks for your opinions.
I actually preferred the amp section of the H80 to the H160 in my testing, a little less drive but a little warmer I felt.
adding the HD25 DAC was a subtle but definite improvement, it is very fluid and musical.

While I do not need "warm" I do prefer musical to analytical.

I think that means the IDA-16 may be a little too lean for me and the ST10/Dac10 combo may be my best bet

jonbee

While I do not need "warm" I do prefer musical to analytical.

I think that means the IDA-16 may be a little too lean for me and the ST10/Dac10 combo may be my best bet
For me that is correct. The more I listen to the ST-10/dac10, the more I feel it is "just right". I've given up nothing in detail or presentation over the best I'd owned, but I'm listening more and enjoying well known music even more. There is an ease and naturalness to the sound that is most engaging, while giving up or adding nothing that I can identify.
I'll probably get mine modded out of curiosity, but I really enjoy what they offer as-is. I'm listening to my not easy to drive HE-560 'phones right now over 20' long cables and they sound terrific, no loss of slam or clarity. For all these components do, they are THE bargain in high end, imo.

Armaegis

  • Full Member
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  • slumming it between headphones and pro audio
it is extremely rare that we designed and built our own switching power supplies

I'm rather curious about this point. Nuforce/Nuprime has been a pioneer in class D technology for a while now. I would think that there is a fairly large crossover with the design of switching power supplies. If you've progressed class D amps to the point where they are virtually indistinguishable from class A/B in terms of performance, could you not design and do the same for power supplies?

I realize I'm grossly simplifying the concepts, but if there are design choices (maybe you just prefer the sound of linear psu?) or implementation hurdles, I'd be curious to hear them.

Thanks

nuforcebob

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 4
    • TDSS
Hey Guys,

Thought I’d chime in to share a little technical info that (hopefully) will help to show that published noise specs often don’t tell the whole story when comparing DACs (or any other pieces of audio gear for that matter).

Quote
Only the noise floor is better: -145 dB. But we do not need more than 110 dB.

Not to be contentious, but neither the above claim nor the quoted specs are necessarily accurate. If the specs are true from DC, across the full audio spectrum and out to infinite frequency, then I would argue that –145 is not only measurably better than –110, but audibly as well. This fact harkens to the primary benefit of the TDSS Custom Upgrades in that they reduce all measurable noise levels, be they audible or beyond the audible spectrum. Therefore, if  –110 dB represented the limit of audibility then there would be little to no benefit from the TDSS Custom Upgrade of the DAC-10, seeing its stock published dynamic range is already an excellent 115 dB (which is not exactly the same as the S/N Ratio – but close enough). Yet, we have clearly shown that the Upgrade offers a very substantial improvement. Go figure.

That said, there must be more to the story than the published specs for all of these devices. Specifically, most implementations of Sigma-Delta DACs include noise-shaping techniques that “push” the noise up higher in frequency to beyond the 20KHz limit of human hearing. Then the “A-weighted” measurement protocol gives exceptional results because it diminishes the importance of low frequency noise artifacts in favor high frequency noise, but then is limited to only those below 20KHz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

Many (if not most) industry folks would argue that while the above may be true, the A-weighted measurement still has value because it represents a good method for comparing audio gear. True… at a cursory level of comparison, but it’s not likely to be of much help when comparing the “sound” or sonic signature between different components – and that’s what we are really talking about here.

So what’s the problem? See here:

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/292noise/index.html#iTAAI5BUWgCvOCmq.97

Furthermore, it’s a known fact that while noise energy above 20KHz can’t be heard directly, its affect on signals in the audio band certainly can be. Ever wonder why an aluminum dome tweeter can measure great in every way out to 20KHz, but it still doesn’t sound all the great and/or there are few that do? Compare the speakers offering them to the number that offer soft-dome tweeters if you have any doubts about the validity of that statement.

OK, the reason for that is if you measure that same aluminum-dome tweeter out to say... probably not necessary to go beyond 30KHz… you will likely find a HUGE resonant peak somewhere close to about 25KHz. In fact, there will likely be more acoustic output at that frequency than any other frequency from 20KHz on down. “So what’s the problem? You can’t hear 25KHz anyway” – and that’s what their manufacturers will try to tell you too. What they WON’T tell you though is that the energy above 20KHz will “beat” with frequencies in the audio band and produce sum & difference sideband tones. In other words, that 25KHz resonance will be a significant source of INTER-MODULATION DISTORTION. And that’s WHY there are very few good sounding aluminum dome tweeter.

That said, using a DAC design that “pushes” audible noise into the ultra-sonic band is NOT a panacea for improving the overall sound because the exact same process occurring in the tweeter example above is going to take place to some degree in the DAC. In fact, it also occurs in virtually all Class-D/switching amplifiers as well due to the UHF noise generated by their high switching frequencies (anywhere from 200KHz up to near 1MHz depending on make & model). Again, that’s the reason the TDSS Custom Upgrade of the NuForce & NuPrime amps offers the improvement that it does. Via proper shielding and grounding techniques (among others), the upgrade reduces the level of UHF noise circulating within the amplifier circuitry, which then reduces the effects of UHF noise inter-modulating with the audio band signals (not to mention the amp’s negative feedback loop).

So anyway, noise shaping makes for great A-weighted noise specs, but you can’t really say much more than that for the process – at least with respect to its ability to predict the final sonic performance of a component or for use in comparing components with the same goal in mind.

Furthermore, while the inter-modulation issue tends to be “static” in nature (not changing with changes in output signal level), there is another concern that affects the sonic signature of a DAC using Sigma-Delta conversion. In addition, you will note in the above Stereophile article that any remaining noise below 20KHz can be modulated in frequency in direct relation to output signal level changes. That means the noise “spectrum” will change as the audio volume level increase and decreases. The article also points out that it has been shown such variations in noise of no more than 1 dB can be heard by discerning listeners.

So there ya go. Go get a DAC-10 and LISTEN to it for yourself if you wanna know for sure. Short of some artificial intelligence algorithm running on a computer-based audio analyzer, the only other way to test these gizmos is to use the “natural intelligence” analyzer that you were born with between your ears. Now, if you don’t have one of those, uh... never mind.

Take care,  :D
-Bob

maty

In a laboratory with clean power 110 dB is enough. In the real life we have more noise, distorsion... => FIRST we need clean power at home!

By the way, my cheap USB DAC (ODAC):

Würth 150 kHz ferrite with two passes in the cheap printer USB cable => ODAC => Würth 150 kHz ferrite x2 in the RCA cable.

And more Schaffner RFI/EMI filters and my loved DC & Ripple Blocker x4 ME (aka Maty Edition).

And a PC with a clean, silent and cheap PSU too. With W7 64 bits very well optimized to play multimedia and the player foobar2000 too.

Shielding, OK. The aluminum boxes have usually thin walls, which penetrates the RFI / EMI atmospheric. This is the problem in my iFi iCAN.

A good steel plate 3mm is welcome.


Cheap but very effective solutions.

Now, it is logical to improve my second system! First the amp, maybe a future? Nuprime MCH-K38 "stereo".

pepperinca

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 267
To "larsg" and any others who actually have both IDA-16 and DAC-10/ST-10:

How would you compare the sound?

larsg

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 21
DAC-10/ST-10 is a little warmer and fuller sound, perfect for Jazz-Vocal and acoustic. IDA-16 has a little more power and grunt in  the sound and is my choice for heavy metal and Jet Lock,n Loll.

kbouldk

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 4
Thanks for your opinions.
I actually preferred the amp section of the H80 to the H160 in my testing, a little less drive but a little warmer I felt.
adding the HD25 DAC was a subtle but definite improvement, it is very fluid and musical.

While I do not need "warm" I do prefer musical to analytical.

I think that means the IDA-16 may be a little too lean for me and the ST10/Dac10 combo may be my best bet

I had borrowed home a Hegel H80, an IDA-8 and a DAC9/STA9 combo. Very clearly the Nuprime products sounded better than Hegel. I ended buying the DAC9/STA9 combo.

audioguy213

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 203
thanks for the info, that is encouraging to hear.

I am going to try a modified pair of Dac10 and ST10 to replace my H80 and HD25,
I will be sure to report back,