[indirstr8s]

Ted_b, thanks. I actually read the whole CA thread on amarra, pretty long one. I gathered the following....

a) It plays on both firewire and USB. The DAC need to be certified.
b) The benchmark media DAC is certified.
c) The EA usb products use the same USB FW as the benchmark media, but the impression I got was it did not work for some fellows who tried the demo amarra with EA.
d) Demo amarra is available on request. I put on my request for it.
e) Many people found it better sounding than iTunes, keeping the volume control and eq settings off.
This thing never ceases to be intriguing.
f) Some claimed on CA that even the professional Audio editors play better than iTunes.

Ted, I was one who compared Amarra to other players.  My impression is Amarra easily bettered iTunes.  I also had compared a few professional players and found all to better iTunes.

Tom

Tom,

Please take a look at this
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=68459.0

[serengetiplains]

I'll try that.

[serengetiplains]

I did a quick A/B with iTunes loaded into a ram disk and compared with with Amarra.  I think iTunes may have sounded better than what I remember from using it off my HD, which as of yesterday became a SSD.  But Amarra sounded better.

The improvement you heard may relate to what Steve says about SS access time etc?

[audioengr]

I did a quick A/B with iTunes loaded into a ram disk and compared with with Amarra.  I think iTunes may have sounded better than what I remember from using it off my HD, which as of yesterday became a SSD.  But Amarra sounded better.

The improvement you heard may relate to what Steve says about SS access time etc?

Based on todays experiments between USB direct from the Mac Mini to my Overdrive versus USB from the Mini through the Tascam US-144 and the PAce-Car, I would have to say that the Pace-Car wins hands-down.

This is not the result when using a PC.  The USB and the Pace-Car are very close.

There is only one conclusion:

Jitter from the Mac is very high compared to the PC

Next, I will do some listening tests of PC through the Tascam/Pace-Car and Mac Mini through the Tascam/Pace-Car.  If these sound identical with the same .wav tracks, then jitter must be the issue with Mac.

Finally, I'll use the Amarra test code with USB and then with the Tascam/Pace-Car.

This will answer once and for all whether the Amarra effect is purely jitter reduction or is there more there.

Steve N.

[ted_b]

Ted_b, thanks. I actually read the whole CA thread on amarra, pretty long one. I gathered the following....

a) It plays on both firewire and USB. The DAC need to be certified.
b) The benchmark media DAC is certified.
c) The EA usb products use the same USB FW as the benchmark media, but the impression I got was it did not work for some fellows who tried the demo amarra with EA.
d) Demo amarra is available on request. I put on my request for it.
e) Many people found it better sounding than iTunes, keeping the volume control and eq settings off.
This thing never ceases to be intriguing.
f) Some claimed on CA that even the professional Audio editors play better than iTunes.

Ted, I was one who compared Amarra to other players.  My impression is Amarra easily bettered iTunes.  I also had compared a few professional players and found all to better iTunes.

Tom

Tom,
Could you spend a few min explaining what Amarra sounds like; i.e what sonically does it do "easily better" than iTunes?  With so many folks doing a/b comparisons few if any have actually described what they heard.  Soundstage, imaging, frequency response, bass characteristics, depth, warmth, yadayada.  If you wanna post this on the "Amarra" thread here at AC instead of this one, I'll find it.  Thx
Ted

[serengetiplains]

Ted, happily.  I'll post on the Amarra thread.

[audioengr]

Ted_b, thanks. I actually read the whole CA thread on amarra, pretty long one. I gathered the following....

a) It plays on both firewire and USB. The DAC need to be certified.
b) The benchmark media DAC is certified.
c) The EA usb products use the same USB FW as the benchmark media, but the impression I got was it did not work for some fellows who tried the demo amarra with EA.
d) Demo amarra is available on request. I put on my request for it.
e) Many people found it better sounding than iTunes, keeping the volume control and eq settings off.
This thing never ceases to be intriguing.
f) Some claimed on CA that even the professional Audio editors play better than iTunes.

Ted, I was one who compared Amarra to other players.  My impression is Amarra easily bettered iTunes.  I also had compared a few professional players and found all to better iTunes.

Tom

Tom,
Could you spend a few min explaining what Amarra sounds like; i.e what sonically does it do "easily better" than iTunes?  With so many folks doing a/b comparisons few if any have actually described what they heard.  Soundstage, imaging, frequency response, bass characteristics, depth, warmth, yadayada.  If you wanna post this on the "Amarra" thread here at AC instead of this one, I'll find it.  Thx
Ted

On my 24/96 native downloaded tracks from bluecoastrecords.com, I found that the female vocalist was "smeared" with iTunes, and less smeared using Amarra.  With the PC and Foobar0.8.3 unmapped, the vocalist is pinpoint.  Absolutely no smearing.  More 3-D like.  It's like you can get out of the chair and see "around" her.  iTunes is more like a flat cardboard image of the vocalist.  These are microdynamics.  The depth of image is the same in both cases.  It's just that at the backwall where she is located, its 2-dimensional with iTunes.

Also, the acoustic guitar is not live.  It has all of the harmonics, but they are not coherent, they are jumbled.  If you turn your back and listen there is no way that this is a live acoustic guitar.  With the PC and Foobar 0.8.3, its in the room with you. Amarra does a pretty good job on the guitar in the foreground, but not as good on the vocalist in the background.

Steve N.

[ted_b]

Steve, Cookie's 24/96 recordings are indeed great examples and test cases (her surround SACD's are sublime, BTW).  Good explanation.  I can't see spending the $$ on Amarra when it leaves even that much out there for Foobar to shine over.  I know MAC and Remote, along with auto sample rate, are niceties, but to quote a great audiophile " I don't care about user interface, just sound quality" and it seems the PC/Foobar is the king so far.

[richidoo]

Well, I can tell you that the offsets are looking like the smoking gun.

So there is no difference between CD-ROM drives? TEAC is not necessarily better sound quality than any other drive?  It is just that the TEAC offset was calibrated and the other drive was not?
Thanks
Rich

[a1p1]

Ted_b, thanks. I actually read the whole CA thread on amarra, pretty long one. I gathered the following....

a) It plays on both firewire and USB. The DAC need to be certified.
b) The benchmark media DAC is certified.
c) The EA usb products use the same USB FW as the benchmark media, but the impression I got was it did not work for some fellows who tried the demo amarra with EA.
d) Demo amarra is available on request. I put on my request for it.
e) Many people found it better sounding than iTunes, keeping the volume control and eq settings off.
This thing never ceases to be intriguing.
f) Some claimed on CA that even the professional Audio editors play better than iTunes.

Ted, I was one who compared Amarra to other players.  My impression is Amarra easily bettered iTunes.  I also had compared a few professional players and found all to better iTunes.

Tom

Tom,
Could you spend a few min explaining what Amarra sounds like; i.e what sonically does it do "easily better" than iTunes?  With so many folks doing a/b comparisons few if any have actually described what they heard.  Soundstage, imaging, frequency response, bass characteristics, depth, warmth, yadayada.  If you wanna post this on the "Amarra" thread here at AC instead of this one, I'll find it.  Thx
Ted

On my 24/96 native downloaded tracks from bluecoastrecords.com, I found that the female vocalist was "smeared" with iTunes, and less smeared using Amarra.  With the PC and Foobar0.8.3 unmapped, the vocalist is pinpoint.  Absolutely no smearing.  More 3-D like.  It's like you can get out of the chair and see "around" her.  iTunes is more like a flat cardboard image of the vocalist.  These are microdynamics.  The depth of image is the same in both cases.  It's just that at the backwall where she is located, its 2-dimensional with iTunes.

Also, the acoustic guitar is not live.  It has all of the harmonics, but they are not coherent, they are jumbled.  If you turn your back and listen there is no way that this is a live acoustic guitar.  With the PC and Foobar 0.8.3, its in the room with you. Amarra does a pretty good job on the guitar in the foreground, but not as good on the vocalist in the background.

Steve N.

Given these problems and what I recall you stating in the past, wouldn't the best sound quality be achieved by not using USB at all and instead bypass the audio stack of the computer (Mac or PC) by using a squeezebox or similar ethernet/wifi device that is slaved to the DAC.  I could easily be overlooking the obvious...

[audioengr]

Well, I can tell you that the offsets are looking like the smoking gun.

So there is no difference between CD-ROM drives? TEAC is not necessarily better sound quality than any other drive?  It is just that the TEAC offset was calibrated and the other drive was not?
Thanks
Rich

They were both calibrated using a CD disk.  The C2 correction was not supported on the non-Teac drive I think.

Steve N.

[audioengr]

Ted_b, thanks. I actually read the whole CA thread on amarra, pretty long one. I gathered the following....

a) It plays on both firewire and USB. The DAC need to be certified.
b) The benchmark media DAC is certified.
c) The EA usb products use the same USB FW as the benchmark media, but the impression I got was it did not work for some fellows who tried the demo amarra with EA.
d) Demo amarra is available on request. I put on my request for it.
e) Many people found it better sounding than iTunes, keeping the volume control and eq settings off.
This thing never ceases to be intriguing.
f) Some claimed on CA that even the professional Audio editors play better than iTunes.

Ted, I was one who compared Amarra to other players.  My impression is Amarra easily bettered iTunes.  I also had compared a few professional players and found all to better iTunes.

Tom

Tom,
Could you spend a few min explaining what Amarra sounds like; i.e what sonically does it do "easily better" than iTunes?  With so many folks doing a/b comparisons few if any have actually described what they heard.  Soundstage, imaging, frequency response, bass characteristics, depth, warmth, yadayada.  If you wanna post this on the "Amarra" thread here at AC instead of this one, I'll find it.  Thx
Ted

On my 24/96 native downloaded tracks from bluecoastrecords.com, I found that the female vocalist was "smeared" with iTunes, and less smeared using Amarra.  With the PC and Foobar0.8.3 unmapped, the vocalist is pinpoint.  Absolutely no smearing.  More 3-D like.  It's like you can get out of the chair and see "around" her.  iTunes is more like a flat cardboard image of the vocalist.  These are microdynamics.  The depth of image is the same in both cases.  It's just that at the backwall where she is located, its 2-dimensional with iTunes.

Also, the acoustic guitar is not live.  It has all of the harmonics, but they are not coherent, they are jumbled.  If you turn your back and listen there is no way that this is a live acoustic guitar.  With the PC and Foobar 0.8.3, its in the room with you. Amarra does a pretty good job on the guitar in the foreground, but not as good on the vocalist in the background.

Steve N.

Given these problems and what I recall you stating in the past, wouldn't the best sound quality be achieved by not using USB at all and instead bypass the audio stack of the computer (Mac or PC) by using a squeezebox or similar ethernet/wifi device that is slaved to the DAC.  I could easily be overlooking the obvious...

No, you have it right, at least in theory.  With a PC , I believe this works 100%.  No audio stack involved. 

However, with iTunes WIFi I'm not conviced that this is the case.  Customers report that changing filetypes and rippers changes the sound, even through iTunes WiFi.

Steve N.

[Tuckers]

Sorry I posted this in the wrong topic. I deleted the contents.

[silverlight]

This combination was recommended by Vincent I believe as well as used in this device:
http://www.ripnas.com/

You can get dbpoweramp here for $36 (includes all the goodies):
http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc-power-register.htm

and the Teac drive here:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310134389867#ShippingPayment

Comparisons of the Teac to other drives:
http://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?t=17274

After proper set-up to do accurate-rip and setting the C2 pointers, i ripped some Led Zep tracks that I had previously ripped using a good CDROM drive and EAC.

The result:  The EAC .wav rips are not even close.  I thought they were good, but I was wrong.  The dbpoweramp .wav rips are highly focused, with improved depth and imaging.

Well worth the less than $100 investment.  Best tweak I have done in years.  The Teac rips at 10-12X too, so its fast and accurate.

I have customers doing this on a PC and then moving the .wav files to Mac.  Its that much better than any other ripper I have tried.]

Kudos to Vincent and customer Bill for this tip.

Steve N.

Going back to the first post, and a couple of the follow-ups, I was curious if anyone has had experience in some of the disc treatments that many claim make a significant difference in transports in the context of ripping CD's.  Specifically, I was reading a review recently on the Jena product:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=432666&highlight=jena+labs&r=&session=

http://www.jenalabs.com/info/esoteric3d-x.html

Worth doing?

[firedog]

Just ordered the dbpoweramp-Teac "secure system". In the manual it states:

DSP Effects & Actions: each time audio is taken from a CD it is run through DSP effects, by default these effects are used:

ReplayGain - calculates a volume loudness which supported players (such as Logitech Duet) can use to level the volume

Isn't that something we would want to turn off if we want "bit-perfect" output from the Duet to a PaceCar?

Thanks

[silverlight]

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between the two dbpoweramp packages that provides "secure abilities"?  is it the drive or the software?
http://www.dbpoweramp.com/ripnas-essentials-purchase.htm

I think this drive was suggested earlier in the thread - would it have the same "secure abilities" when combined with RipNas Essentials software or dbpoweramp package with appropriate settings?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160333801088

Thanks!

[ted_b]

Geoff,
Dunno about the differences.  Scanned the site quickly; seems to be a drive difference (software looks identical).  They have a forum there; ask the question I guess.

[firedog]

They market 3 items:

The software alone.
The software with the Teac Deck
The software with the Teac Deck and "secure" abilities. 
The drive is the same drive in both packages. The final item includes full "secure" abilities:
"Secure models have the option of switching between Burst and Secure ripping modes (detection and recovery of errors)".
Secure models use both "Accurate Rip" and C2 pointers for error detection/correction. I own this model.

The "RipNAS" stuff is aimed at Windows Home Server users. The Deck/software package is setup to integrate into a WHS machine, and automatically rip the CD's and tag them for you when you insert them. The "secure" version even places "insecure" (read, "not verified as bit perfect") rips in a separate library folder. The deck is a finished "external" usb model; its not clear from the ebay page if the item there is a bare internal or  a finished external model.

But in any case, if you don't have or want a WHS machine, buy the ebay deck on its own and their regular "dbpoweramp reference" software package (sold elsewhere on the dbpoweramp site as a standalone software package). This is not the "RipNAS" stuff.

You can then set the "dbpoweramp reference" software up on any PC with the TEAC deck installed and do the full "secure" ripping. The difference is that it won't automatically rip the CD, tag it, and place it in your music library for you when you insert it. You have to manually "tell" the software to do the rip (just as you would with any other ripping software), but if you set it up correctly, the end result will be the same as the deck they are selling in the "RipNAS secure" package.

BTW, they also market a ready made WHS PC with their software and the TEAC deck installed internally. Again, the RipNAS deck/software packages on their web site are designed for WHS machines. If you don't have a WHS machine you need to buy the "dbpoweramp reference" software and the TEAC deck separately. Go to the forum there for further info.

[silverlight]

Thanks both for the response, very helpful. 

[audioengr]

Just ordered the dbpoweramp-Teac "secure system". In the manual it states:

DSP Effects & Actions: each time audio is taken from a CD it is run through DSP effects, by default these effects are used:

ReplayGain - calculates a volume loudness which supported players (such as Logitech Duet) can use to level the volume

Isn't that something we would want to turn off if we want "bit-perfect" output from the Duet to a PaceCar?

Thanks

I recommend disabling all DSP functions. Use album gain.

Steve N.