[rpf]

I thought I'd post some individual alternatives to Tyson's Bruckner set recommendation (in the Basic Library sticky) as most of the best performances (IME) of the greatest Symphonies are on mid-price discs (CDs) and have been re-mastered.

Sound quality is referenced by what has generally been available on CD. There are a lot of high massed string and horn climaxes in Bruckner. Those with metal tweeters and all SS electronics are warned. You will have to downgrade the sound ratings by a level - or better yet buy something with the hallowed fire bottle. 

Bruckner wrote his Symphonies with the sound of the Vienna Philharmonic in mind and they have always been the greatest "Bruckner Orchestra".


I don't find #1 or 2 particularly interesting but Barenboim's drama (BPO/Teldec), which is overdone in the later Symphonies, helps these early pieces. He's not bad in #3 either although Bohm/VPO/Decca and Szell/Dresden/Orfeo are both better.


In Bruckner's most popular and accessible work, the Fourth Symphony, there are a lot of great choices. My favorites are:

Bohm/VPO/Decca - slow but concentrated, with golden toned playing in demonstration sound.

Ormandy/Philadelphia/Sony - quick but taut and powerful, good sound.

Karajan/BPO/EMI - slow, very romantic, in excellent sound.

These three above have playing of striking virtuosity from Orchestras at their peak.

Jochum/Dresden/EMI - beautifully austere, in dry sound which accentuates the reading - the more acclaimed Jochum/BPO/DG has better sound and playing but Jochum pushes and pulls tempos and accents around in a way many, including me, find highly distorted.

Sawallisch/Philadelphia/EMI - between the Dresden Jochum and the Bohm in style, good sound.

Wand/NDR/BMG - quick, highly dramatic, just this side of overblown, very good sound with tremendous dynamics.


In the Fifth, Klemperer/New Philharmonia/EMI is the most acclaimed recording but I prefer the more restrained readings of Jochum/Concertgeboew/Philips and Chailly/Concertgeboew/Decca, both with better playing and in better sound.


In the Sixth, Klemperer/New Philharmonia/EMI is the only reading I've heard I've liked; fair sound.


The Seventh is probably the most popular Bruckner Symphony after the Fourth.

Walter/CSO/Sony - highly idiomatic, beautifully phrased, decent sound.

Karajan/BPO/EMI - again, slow, very romantic, in very good sound.

Chailly/Concertgeboew/Decca - a straightforward reading with excellent playing and sound.

Giulini/VPO/DG - a very slow, very spiritual reading, fair to decent sound (strings are thin and harsh in climaxes though the horns are full and rich).

Bohm/VPO/Andante - a very natural reading, in poor to fair sound: it's a live recording and somewhat bright but the conducting and playing make it worth hearing.


The Eighth - perhaps the greatest Bruckner Symphony.

Karajan/BPO/DG - decent sound.
Karajan/VPO/DG - very good sound.
Both recording have moderate tempos. The BPO is a little more dramatic, a touch "self-conscious". The Adagio, however, is perfect; the best I've heard: so beautifully phrased, timed and played. The VPO reading, however, is better overall as it is a completely un-selfconscious and seamless one. It is one of the top three Eighths.

Bohm/VPO/DG - good to very good sound, this has a bit more ease to it than the Karajan/VPO, but no less concentration. As good as the latter.

Wand/NDR/BMG - a live recording in Lubeck Cathedral, with excellent, incredibly spacious sound. Moderate to slow tempos, good playing. The only Bruckner Symphony I've heard that captures the Cathedral acoustic, with it's reverberation and long decay times, that Bruckner envisioned for his music. The third of the top three Eighths, IME.

Haitink/VPO/Philips - powerful and dramatic in good sound.

Schuricht/VPO/EMI - straightforward, very good playing (of course), moderate tempos, decent sound. Coupled with the Ninth.

Giulini/VPO/DG - same as the Giulini Seventh.


The Ninth

Mehta/VPO/Decca - a concentrated, intense reading of great beauty with superb playing and excellent, spacious sound.

Klemperer/New Philharmonia/EMI - a precise and granitic reading with moderate tempos, good playing and very good sound.

Schuricht/VPO/EMI - good sound; excellent playing with quick tempos.

Giulini/VPO/DG - same as the other Giulinis.


I have heard one or more Bruckner Symphonies from the following and been unimpressed: Sinopoli, Einhorn, Tintner, Tennestedt, Skrowaczewski, and Cobos-Lopez. I like Furtwangler and Beinum but the early '50s sound can be hard to take.


I would really like to hear others' opinions and favorites.

Rob

[Randy]

The Bruno Walter 9th is by far the best version I've heard. No other recording can "move" me like it does.

My favorite 4th is the Concertgeboew with Haintink, circa 1966 on Phillips.

[rpf]

The Bruno Walter 9th is by far the best version I've heard. No other recording can "move" me like it does.

My favorite 4th is the Concertgeboew with Haintink, circa 1966 on Phillips.

I've never been able to wrap my head - or heart - around the Walter 9th. It's not that I think it's bad, or good: I just can't take it in. That's only happened to me with one other recording; interestingly also by Walter (his Brahms 4th).

I haven't heard the Haitink/Concertgeboew 4th. I'll have to check it out. Thanks!

[Tyson]

I suppose I just like my Bruckner on the slow side - my faves are Tintner, Guilini, Wand, and Karajan.  All have good-to-very-good sound.  Also, your Klemperer recs are spot on - awesome reading.  Szell has out a recording of the 7th that is quite good as well.

[rpf]

Thanks Tyson. I'm ordering the Wand/BPO 7th and 9th, as I haven't heard those yet.

As you pick out Klemperer, I'll add comments on his live 4th and New Philharmonia 7th.

The former I didn't mention to avoid overloading the list but it is noteworthy. It's with the BRSO on EMI, and is a fleet (even fast), urgent reading of great power and precision. Very good playing and good to very good sound.

The 7th, as I recall it, is not bad but a bit prosaic with okay sound.

[timjthomas]

I've been listening to Haitink cycle with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.  While Bruckner doesn't appear to be many people's "favorite", I find his symphonies quite satisfying!

Any other recommendations for Bruckner compositions (chamber music, piano, etc.)?

[GDeering]

Hi Rob,

You should try van Beinum'a (mono) 7th, it is exceptional, possibly my favorite Bruckner recording.  If you have not, you should listen to Bohm's 1936(?) recording of Sym 4, the first complete Bruckner sym. and really good. Bohm and Bruckner!   Jochum on the other hand, I am told, always wondered why people thought he was a good Bruckner conductor.  I shelled out money for the big LP box, and sometimes I wonder why as well.

I give Skrowaczewski the benefit of the doubt some times.  I think people over do their Bruckner.  Thinking Karajan and Barenboim.  I like it at times, but I always worry that this style is becoming "received wisdom" for Bruckner interpretation.  For instance I like both Skrowaczewski and Karajan in 9. I have a conductor friend who I was able to bring into the Skrowaczewski camp - and he is a tough audience. 

I've been listening to Bruckner for over thirty years, I started at 13, shortly after I started listening to classical music.  My first recordings were Haitink's, so as much as I love them I have to admit that the Haitink Bruckners (at least the 1st series) are deficient in the brass.  Lovely slow movements, but there's more there than is on the lps.   I used to be a HUGE Haitink fan.  I was young.  I am afraid to listen to his Stravinsky, I used to think Haitink's recordings the three first ballets were fantastic.  I don't want to be let down.....


Gregg

[Tyson]

I've been listening to Haitink cycle with the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.  While Bruckner doesn't appear to be many people's "favorite", I find his symphonies quite satisfying!

Any other recommendations for Bruckner compositions (chamber music, piano, etc.)?

Often I like Haitink's self-effacing manner, it's a good alternative to the more "personal" styles I usually prefer as my main listening.  I assumed he would be very good in Bruckner, but in this case he's just a bit bland.  I wish it were better, because I had such high hopes for this set.

[rpf]

Thanks Gregg.  I have van Beinum's early '50s 8th and 9th (on Philips), both of which I like a lot. Which 7th are you recommending: the '49 (?) or '53 Decca? I've read the latter is the better performance but I have never seen a copy (the multi-disc Music and Arts edition has the earlier release but I tend to be allergic to the sound quality of recordings that old: I only have limited tolerance for even early '50s sound).

I heard a couple or three discs out of Haitink's first set of Bruckner symphonies some years ago (don't remember which ones) and also thought they were bland.

[timjthomas]

So is there a recommended Bruckner set or is it far better to go individual?

A set is usually cheaper, so if given the option, or if they are good, I prefer that options, but am willing to go individual if that's the only good bet.

Thanks!

-Tim

[rpf]

Tim,

It's far better to go for individual issues in Bruckner; especially as many of the best are at mid-price.

Bruckner didn't write any music for piano and the only chamber piece he wrote is a string quintet: I like the Prazak Qt on Praga.

He also wrote some beautiful Masses and Motets. Jochum's set of the Masses is the most highly praised, and it has some beautiful moments, but I find it too operatic overall. There is a single disc by Herreweghe that emphasizes the spirituality more.

[GDeering]

Hi Tyson,

My story with Haitink.  I loved the performances since the 70’s, at that time I added a few Karajan recordings and that box set of various vintage conductors on VOX, I thought I was set.  So, I come back in the 90’s to classical music from a long Jazz spell, and join the fun in the early days of Audio Asylum’s classical court.  There my Haitink-livin’ ways were roundly abused.  I listened to a bit more, with a better stereo and I had to admit that while some of the pacing and beauty (like the “Medieval” moments in the adagios of #’s 3 & 4) are unsurpassed - the brass bite is minimized.  Whether it’s the mix or the conducting style I don’t know.  Though I am told there are live Dutch broadcasts of Haitink performing Bruckner in the 60’s and 70’s that are great.  Once my confidence in Haitink was shaken I was not sure whom to trust!

Many recordings swing in the opposite direction, Bruckner can sound like a brass concerto with string accompaniment.  So I hate to put the recordings down, they still have an emotional pull for me - but (sigh) the pacing can be great or bland, the orchestra is amazing, but there are textures and sonorities that are not captured.  Maybe Haitink wanted to make a statement that Bruckner was more of a classicist, and not simply reproducing an organ in his conception of symphonic sound. These are my thoughts not Haitink’s, but the dominance of the strings does help make that case.  I’ve seen him conduct Brahms with the Boston Symphony, but never Bruckner.  The performance was good, not as good maybe as the (recent) London CDs.  Still even those lag a bit, as if he was giving the performers room at the expense of the momentum of the symphony?  One of my favorite live Bruckners (believe it or not) was with Masur and the NY Phil in 4.  He was able to treat the band like an orchestra from Eastern Europe - that is the brass was ever present, but subdued.  Particularly in the Adagio, a brass base under the strings is like noting I have heard in recorded Bruckner.  The NYP brass, being who they are, got to shine in mov’s 3 & 4.  I have heard Maazel doing Bruckner live and it’s brass at full bore, NYP back to normal.

Anyway all this because I feel guilty about dissing Haitink, particularly since I have no sure fire alternative set. 

Oh, the van Beinum I like is the 1947.  I only have the Dutton CD, make of that what you will (some people are anti-cedar, I don’t care).  I have the later recording on old London LPs.  I like his 9 as well, I think the 8 is OK- but I have not listened to it much.

Old sound is a not so much of a problem for me, but it does get in the way of my properly giving Furtwangler a really good hearing.  I think his Brahms is the best (a really tough listen, plus you have Nazis coughing in the background), but I have not been able to love his Bruckner, with the exception of the incomplete 6th.  There he is supreme.  I‘m not into Bruckner right now, but when I get back into the fold I will give some others a chance and see what’s out now.  I have a lot of OK stuff, Wand, Barenboim etc.. but there seems to be an unending supply these days.



Gregg


PS it's worth buying the Herreweghe Motets just for the (really) short brass bits.  Short, like 90 seconds each, but great.  Plus if I remember right there are only two - so I am recommending a CD for 3 min. worth of music.  Maybe I should not make recommendations.

[BobM]

I can never listen to Bruckner the same way again. His symphonies are big, bold and dynamic with lots of string action and beautiful and memorable melodies. But an ex horn player frined of mine pointed out that he barely writes parts for the horns, and when he does it is usually just a repeated set of eitgth notes or long notes backing the strings. There's little in the way of the horns playing a melody or doing anything interesting at all.

Not always, but for th most part I found this to be true. I wonder why that is?

[GDeering]

But an ex horn player friend of mine pointed out that he barely writes parts for the horns, and when he does it is usually just a repeated set of eighth notes or long notes backing the strings.

Bill Murray voice:  You're sure your talking about Anton Bruckner?

I can think of a lot of great brass wring, a Wagner memorial section in #8. Whole Scherzos.  On technical stuff I'd have to ask my friends, but if one is going to condemn Bruckner then throw in Wagner too (with Siegfried's horn call the exception that proves the rule - I love that saying). 

As far as backing the strings, please don't tell the cellos and violas about minor part writing.  Double basses have to be aware already.

I'm out the door, so I don't mean to be snide, but give the guy a break, who else was writing anything like this and writing for valveless horns.... 

How does your friend feel about the brass writing in Philip Glass, simple has it's virtues, but THAT's got to be boring.  I like it, bit it can't be a tough gig.


Gregg

[S Clark]

I just picked up the Bohm version of the 4th.  Very well recorded and a moving rendition. 

[Tyson]

For me, I like Bruckner to be wise, and I still like Tintner above all others for that (except Guilini in the last 3).  Some think it's dull, but I don't.  Haitink is dull, Tintner is visionary.

[Jack Bruce]

Bruckner is an old Friend but one that I cant seem to get back to try as I might. And I've Tried for quite some time. My short list of the more listened too symphonies is probably "much different" from others. There are soooo many great to semi Great readings of the 4th but if I had to be pinned down I would go with Otmar Suitner. In actuality, in my Heart I know Bohm's reading cant be touched. Not in my lifetime it seems.

The 6th is such a curious beast. Otto made it his. This changed for me but in a way that once I never Thought it would happen. That I would turn from Klemperer and approach two other readings and be so satisfied as to they then displaced him. This is blasphemy BUT these two men took it to where I needed to go within this Symphony. If You've not heard these two readings I Urge one and all to seek them out!! The first is very difficult to find. Riccardo Muti with the Berliners. I seldom found Joy in this Symphony as I did with This reading. It's....Wonderful. Seldom if Ever mentioned. For years it seemed to be like this secret that I had. That I seemed to hold very close. The other 6th will probably turn up some noses with some disgusting looks. *LOL* I dont care. If You havnt heard it Dont judge by his semi pathetic 8th that He and the C.O. did. Christoph Von Dohnanyi. There is NOTHING else like this from anyone. Not even Otto. That's a Pretty Heavy statement but I believe it to be true. The coherence, the True Beauty of the Reading is soooooo tender yet sparked with Much that You will never Find again in this symphony. Ever. I dont mean differing from the score. Dohnanyi goes to another place for this.....it's like He rose above all of it and pulled something out of the C.O. that even they were amazed at. He Can Be quite dry at times. Try finding that here. *Warm boyish Smile*

If I continue I will make more enemies I'm sure. *LOL*

If one only has time for one of these readings make it  Suitners 4th (Bohm owns Him BUT that is a freak occurance, that Piece of Music Was Bohm's, He Owned it as He Still does and as He probably Still will 120 years from now) or Muti's 6th. I say that over C. Von & the C.O.  BECAUSE Dohnanyi will take Alot Out of You as a listener. (((ALOT!)))  Muti will make You smile almost through out the entire 57 minutes.


Next Time I'll Really incite in here with my 8ths and 9ths. *LOL*   *SMILE*


It's ALL good. *Warm Smile*

[BobMajor]

The Muti versions of Bruckner Symphonies No. 4 and No. 6 is being reissued next month at discount:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/EMI/0979622

[katzer]

Hi,

First post on audiocircles

I am happy I found this thread. Bruckner is a big part of my music world.
I tend to agree with most of the opinions voiced above. I was surprised though that Celibidache's was not mentioned. I guess you either love his work or hate it. Similar to Karajan...

Going through the list above, there are certainly few that I think I will pick up in the near future. In the meanwhile, I thought I'd share my favorite recordings of the symphonies I tend to listen to the most.

9th - Celibidache/Munich Phil. It is has a meditative quality I didn't find in the other recordings (Giulini,Wand,Bernstein,...)

The 8th, Furthwangler's (VPO,'44) is one of my favorites, but the sounds is really bad. Thinking modern, Celibidache is still my favorite for this one.
7th - Giulini/VPO. Spiritual first movement. The orchestra was inspired. So was I.
6th - Chailiy/Concertgebow - wonderful overall sound. Klemeperer (EMI), if only it were digital recording. Older Karajan with BPO (analog recording, DG white label). The Berlin double base section here is worth the listen. It is the only Karajan recording I like.
4th  - Celibidache. Actually this one set me on buying all his Bruckner recordings with the Munich Philharmonic. Haitink with VPO is great tool. Best horn solo: Ormandy with the Philadelphia Orchestra. Mason Jones plays with ease that is second to none.
3th - Solti CSO - it is different edition, the Scherzo has a different ending which took me by complete surprise. Celibidache drives the Munich Philharmonic over the moon on this one. There is something almost sinister about this recording, he manipulates the Orchestra a bit, plays with their impulses so at the end they just go nuts (not the only recording where he pulls that gambit).
2nd - Tintner.  I think Tintner is the least ego-driven of the Bruckner conductors. The 2nd has a somewhat humble spirit and I find Tintner's rendition the most convincing.

Cheers,

  Erez