Belden 8402 IC

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Big Red Machine

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #140 on: 21 Jun 2017, 11:07 am »
Once you go liquid, wire is so passe :wink: :thumb:

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #141 on: 21 Jun 2017, 12:24 pm »
Once you go liquid, wire is so passe :wink: :thumb:

Once you deal with the in room acoustics and polar response of the loudspeaker there is no turning back!  :green:

Best,
Anand

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #142 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:05 pm »
Then explain why cables sound different.
The link in my post #131 has several papers about why cables may sound different.

But the quick answer is noise, interference, ringing or even oscillation.

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #143 on: 22 Jun 2017, 03:19 pm »
A twisted pair is all one requires. The three wire Kimber is so they can weave the wire. Takes at least 3 wires to make it a weave... As for two ground. I would think Kimber actually listened to the results of two main, one ground, vs two ground and found it sounded better? Kimber offers three wire braid in bulk, and various four wire braided in bulk.
But there are no ground wires in a balanced interconnect. It's a two wire system with (or without) a shield. A wire or two does not make a shield.

Quote
A shield is not required for most audio level signals. specially since the standard has move up to pro 2v vs the old audio gear 0.5 volts.
While pro audio is moving towards unshielded Cat5/Cat6 it requires very well made bonded Cat cable. A woven cable is very far from the needed manufacturing symmetry. It's not easy to make good unshielded balanced cable.

Quote
The one place an audiophile might need a shield is on phono cables, since that signal is pretty small voltage.
In the modern world, I have a very different viewpoint, there are new noise & interference sources showing up everyday. Any product that you buy that connects to AC power has the potential to be a problem.


Letitroll98

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #144 on: 22 Jun 2017, 07:48 pm »
The link in my post #131 has several papers about why cables may sound different.

But the quick answer is noise, interference, ringing or even oscillation.
Thanks for the link.  It'll take me a while to dig through all that material, but looks like some interesting stuff.  Any particular one you think might apply more than the others?

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #145 on: 23 Jun 2017, 01:28 pm »
The first 7 or so papers in the Hum, Buzz and RFI section.

celo

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #146 on: 14 Jul 2017, 08:20 pm »
How is the 8402 and 8412 same when their technical specs are totally different? They will sound the same or not, I don't know but technically they are not the same cable.

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #147 on: 14 Jul 2017, 10:09 pm »
Maybe there is a typo in my 1997 Belden catalog, because the catalog lists identical specs.
Nope, my 1985 catalog has the same specs. There is an extremely small difference in the overall diameter.

celo

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #148 on: 14 Jul 2017, 10:12 pm »
Maybe there is a typo in my 1997 Belden catalog, because the catalog lists identical specs.
Nope, my 1985 catalog has the same specs. There is an extremely small difference in the overall diameter.

I was not referring to you. I had checked their website and looks different to me.

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8412.pdf
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8402.pdf


Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #149 on: 14 Jul 2017, 10:22 pm »
Yep, that tech sheet for the 8412 is very, very different than my two & three decade old catalogs.
No Teflon® in the old catalogs.
But the balanced interconnect system is very robust, no reason for them to sound different.

WireNut

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #150 on: 14 Jul 2017, 11:58 pm »
Here's a few pics of my Belden 8412 bulk cable.














That's why they call me WireNut  :thumb:

earwig

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #151 on: 22 Jul 2017, 01:47 pm »
The wire that made me go nuts was the Harmonic Technology pro silway 2, A guy brought one over plugged it into my system and the soundstage tightened up,the focus and clarity formed into coherent o bought one pair then a second pair later.Why it sounds so dramatic a difference beats me. so I unscrew the rca and see two 20 guage solid copper wire and two 20 guage pure solid silver wire . So that means each conductor is one copper solid insulated Teflon wire and one solid silver Teflon wire so they work  together in quad twisted two different types of metal pair. The rest if a thick unknown constructed  shield 9If I could only figure that one out). And locking rca. As far as I know if you don't have this wire you don't even know what your stereo really sounds like. In any case its marked me for another wire nut for life trying to find out how it even works.Id like to make one but if want any ideas heres one I just said above ,lol. now if I could only figure out what that shield is hmm?

DaveC113

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #152 on: 22 Jul 2017, 02:49 pm »
The wire that made me go nuts was the Harmonic Technology pro silway 2, A guy brought one over plugged it into my system and the soundstage tightened up,the focus and clarity formed into coherent o bought one pair then a second pair later.Why it sounds so dramatic a difference beats me. so I unscrew the rca and see two 20 guage solid copper wire and two 20 guage pure solid silver wire . So that means each conductor is one copper solid insulated Teflon wire and one solid silver Teflon wire so they work  together in quad twisted two different types of metal pair. The rest if a thick unknown constructed  shield 9If I could only figure that one out). And locking rca. As far as I know if you don't have this wire you don't even know what your stereo really sounds like. In any case its marked me for another wire nut for life trying to find out how it even works.Id like to make one but if want any ideas heres one I just said above ,lol. now if I could only figure out what that shield is hmm?

Harmonic Tech is a Neotech company, you can get the wire used as Neotech UPOCC wire. Shielding is probably braided copper, I prefer it tinned, some also use a layer of foil as well. Shielding materials are very common and should be available from any electronics supply.

earwig

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #153 on: 24 Jul 2017, 11:10 am »
Thanks Ill look into the Neotech wires. So the shield its just plain copper braid hmm . I have also these two feet pieces of red n white military lab surplus coax wire that was hooked up to this weird tube thing .Solid core silver plate thick 16 guage Teflon center and double layers of silver plated copper braid outside Teflon red and a white version . Sounds excellent and increased the power of the signal. Made an open big clear punchier soundstage  :green: great way to recycle

Escott1377

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #154 on: 24 Jul 2017, 02:54 pm »
I have used this when building phono wires - pretty easy to work with.

http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/cable-sleeving-copper-braid-c-157_160_439

rotarius

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #155 on: 25 Jul 2017, 12:33 am »
There seems to be errors in the 8412 metric datasheet.  It even lists the insulation as FEP which is not the case.  I looked at the Belden 8412 English datasheet on Allied electronics and that one matches the English 8402 datasheet.   Conversion to metric will get you at times :icon_lol:
 

Speedskater

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #156 on: 25 Jul 2017, 01:14 am »
The printed US Belden datasheet has had that error for decades. (but then, I don't have a current printed catalog)

Steve

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #157 on: 26 Jul 2017, 01:10 am »
I would also add that with two components using the pin 1 ground wires (in powor cords); that musical signal return current
not only "flows" through the IC shields (for SE), but also through the pin 1 ground wires. That is both channels. A ground wire is not a ground wire by any means. (Let's keep this as simple as possible.)

Resistance and inductance of the ICs, pin 1 ground wire, foil R/L on the main PC board or hard wiring. An example.



The < Arrows just indicate the return path (shield) of the AC musical signal to complete the circuit.

As an approximation, let's assume we have an IC shield of 8 mm dia. The shield will normally act as a single conductor. At 20 khz, the reactance of that straight shield is approximately 0,125 ohms. Skin effect is minimal. 0,125 ohms reactance is not inconsequential.

What about pin 1 wire, 12 gauge. Assuming two components with 6 foot cords in series, that is 12 feet of pin 1 between components as the return musical signal current path. Inductance at 20 khz is approximately 0,74 ohms.

Notice there are no zero ohms path between the Pre and Amp, as Dave has correctly pointed out. Thus musical signal return current is "flowing" through three conductors, the two IC shields and the pin 1 power cord wire.

Any resistance and/or inductance changes in any, or all of the three conductors will affect the channel separation between channels and even frequency response. We can eliminate the pin 1 return path, but with a cost to safety, UL approval.

We also have to contend with the reactance differences between the IC shields and the PC board foils/hard wiring. The foil thickness, width, layout, especially curves, has inductance to consider.

Just about everything, including ICs, power cord pin 1s (if two components used), and internal foils/hardwiring, parts layout, are important.

Cheers
Steve

WireNut

Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #158 on: 26 Jul 2017, 01:57 am »
This is it folks. Straight from Belden. 8412.


http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/8412.pdf












Your Welcome.

Steve

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Re: Belden 8402 IC
« Reply #159 on: 26 Jul 2017, 04:49 am »
Welcome to the strange world of audiophiledom.  :)  Where solid engineering knowledge is labeled speculation and discounted in favor of subjective evaluation.  However, it shouldn't be a surprise......AC is full of members with the same thinking.

Dave.

Actually I can understand the lack of acceptance of science since it has been used for marketing purposes, or they just do not understand basic electronics. I have been testing since I was ~8, so some 59 years.

1. Some years ago, I heard about ICs sounding different. Sure there were differences in capacitance, even inductance. So I took two pairs of the same ICs, same capacitance and inductance. I plug one pair into the CD player and preamplifier input. I took the other pair and soldered it into the CD player and to a different preamplifier input. The input selector switch was quite high quality coin silver contacts, measured etc.

Switching between the inputs, the sound was quite different. The different inputs should have "sounded" the same, but they "sounded" different. I spent some 6 months to a year testing. I wonder how many of these experts have actually tested their theories, or just used ohms law. 

2. On another forum, an individual with a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering from MIT, broke into a conversation I was having, and stated twice he flunks individuals like me for breakfast, for me stating twice that inductors and capacitors are non-linear.

I finally got him to define the definition of an inductor, and he correctly stated, (a book definition) that an inductor is linear in terms of amplitude. However, I was referring to VS frequency, which he did not understand. Below is proof. He then decided to voluntarily leave the forum, never to return.

Here is an inductor VS frequency. (Bottom Right.)



Here are typical impedance measurement curves for electrolytic capacitors, one or two are computer grade. The dip is a broad resonance, starting curve as low as 400hz. (For newbies, notice the line is not a straight line, indicating the capacitor is non linear VS audio frequency. To the right of the dip, resonant frequency, the impedance become more and more inductive.



These are just two examples; there are more. I think the main problem is we have a few bad apples, like any other field, who either really do not understand science or they are using just the science to support their marketing purposes.

Cheers
Steve
« Last Edit: 26 Jul 2017, 10:11 pm by Steve »