[Devil Doc]

I've owned my Vandersteen 2Ci's for over twenty years. I'm really not unhappy with them, but an upgrade is overdue. The question is, are the signature models enough of an upgrade? Should I get the 3A's. Holding out for the Treo's is possible, but I'd have to wait a bit. Auditioning them where I live is not a possibility. I'd appreciate your thoughts. BTW, I'm pretty much sold on Vandersteen. No one, IMO makes a better speaker for the money and besides, I don't want to rock the boat.

Doc

[C17FXR]

Is that room of yours able to handle the bass capabilities of the 3A Sig's or the Treo's?
If you think that it can't then I would look at the 2Ce Signature's or Signature II's.

Something else to consider, some have preferred the sound of the Monolithic Vandersteen's (2's and 3's) to the new slim line design (Treo's and Quatro), so if you are considering them you may want to try and give them a listen first.

Can't speak to the difference myself as I have only heard the Quatro's several years ago and I wasn't there for a listening session.
But after seeing a few post concerning it, I will be looking into it if I ever decide to move up from my 3A Sig/ 2Wq combo.

I know my wife would prefer the slim line design for the visual aspect of it, but then again she only visits the room to watch moves and with that visual distraction how can you be looking at how good the speakers look.

Wait is she trying to tell me our movies are so boring that she would rather look at speakers?????   

Anyway just food for thought or added thought for you dilemma, I will look up the post when I have some time for your reading pleasure.

[pumpkinman]

Hey Doc,
I started out with 2CE's and it wasn't to long after that I sold them and went to 3A's and I'm glad I did. At this point the other speaker I'd like to try would be the Ushers 6311. There's a beautiful pair for sale right now in NC. Am I unhappy enough to rush to buy them ?? No

[Devil Doc]

The room is an issue. Dimensions are a bit odd. It's more like a hallway than a room. It's 9' wide, 30' long, and 7 1/2' high.  But, I've lots of broadband bass traps in the corners, on the ceiling and the first and secondary reflection points. The folks at GKI say I have pretty good response for a non-purpose built room. Let's not forget, however, you go to war with the room you have, not the room you wish you had, or something like that.

Doc

[Carl V]

one of my earlier (('83?)) Hi-end systems consisted of
cjPV5 MV50/52 2Ci. additions and changes:
2w sub (2) 2Ce then 2Ce Sig....then 3A sig.
always kept two 2wq subs.  That system still exists. At an Uncles.
The changes were small but there, no guessing or wondering.
But the sound was similar.

If possible save for Treo or Quarto it's a bigger step forward.
Good luck.

[ctsooner]

I hope I can post this here as I haven't put them on the trading forum yet.  I have decided to sell my 1.5 yr old Treo's in cherry.  I am able to upgrade to the Quatro's so the Treo's are up for sale.  I was with Richard at Audio Connections in NJ all day on Saturday and after listening to him speak, I have decided to spend the coin to upgrade to the Quatro's.  My Treo's are not the CT's, but they are in mint shape (black grills) and come with everything including the packaging so I can ship them if needed.  The 'tipping spikes' are still in the package as we never used them.  My buddy Johnny who owns AC in NJ would be willing to talk you through the proper set up in your room I"m sure.

I personally got the Treo's over everything else I heard in the 10k and down price range.  I was NOT a Vandersteen 'guy' until I heard the Treo's.  The 3 sigs are great in their price range and delivery great sound, however they Treo's bass is, for the price, down right scary.  It's just musical.  It goes down very powerfully into the very low 30's and that's all you can ask for in this price range. The QUALITY of this bass is from a speaker in the 20-30k range, just not as powerful.  The 3's give you a bit more energy, however the trade off is a bit of quality. For the price difference you'd expect that.  Richard as we all know has a knack for making the trade offs that people can easily live with. I think that is something that has separated him and his designs over the years.  The soundstage, imaging etc.  is also better, not to mention the looks of the cabinets.  Even my wife loves the look (as much as she can like a large set of boxes in the room, lol).  If interested, let's talk and I will do everything I can to set you up with the right people to get your system to where you want it to be.  Thanks all. 

Also, keep in mind that if you get these Treo's instead of the 3's, you'll be more easily able to later purchase Richards new 9 subs that will be only sold in pairs and will be out in a few months I believe.  Those with the Treo's will give you sound that is close to the Quatro's.  You can easily find a used pair of the current q subs and do the same thing.

Just let me know. Thanks again.

[dminches]

What do you look like  ?  I was there too.

[ctsooner]

dARN, I was hoping to meet everyone from the boards.  I'll come down again and we will meet up.  I was the one with the two walking sticks (I have MS).  maybe we did meet, lol.  I'm Pete from CT. 

[ctsooner]

Weren't you blown away by Garth's presentation with the Niagara?  Can't wait to get the 5000 for my system.

[dminches]

Ah, yes.  I was there when you were auditioning the Quattros.

I did think the Niagara demo was excellent.  Just need balance the value of an upgrade in power conditioning.

[ctsooner]

If you only need 1 outlet for power amp, then the 1000 for only 950 is the one as it gives you 90% of the 7000.  Those two huge transformers really jack up the cost of the 7000.  He demoed the 1000 for Richard, me, Johnny, Doug Gordon and Steve from AQ.  We were amazed. Plus their new power cords will be priced for value and they too made a difference in the way they take the RF away from the components.  Plus the system was really cranking at the end of the day, lol.  Nick played lot's of good music for those who were  left.  Just great guys who have a passion for what they do.  Next time you see me there, please come over to chat, lol. 

[Hikmer]

The room is an issue. Dimensions are a bit odd. It's more like a hallway than a room. It's 9' wide, 30' long, and 7 1/2' high.  But, I've lots of broadband bass traps in the corners, on the ceiling and the first and secondary reflection points. The folks at GKI say I have pretty good response for a non-purpose built room. Let's not forget, however, you go to war with the room you have, not the room you wish you had, or something like that.

Doc

I have the 3A Sigs and two 2Wq subs...for the price, I think they can't be beat...you need room for the subs and I also have a ton of home made bass traps which makes the room sound very good.  I think the Treo is less efficient that the 3A Sigs so be careful on power.  Vandersteens are hungry speakers...they will eat up all the power you give them.  I just upgraded to a Bryston amp and the change was unbelievably better in every aspect.  I picked up the 3A sigs for $1800 used and the Subs for about $600-$800 each...that's a fairly good bargain as I have an oddly shaped living room and being able to move the sibs around helps with some peeks and valleys in the sound spectrum.

[ctsooner]

All the Vandersteens are great for the price. I listened extensively to all of them a few years ago as I wasn't into them 20 years prior as my dealer didn't like them and didn't set them up properly.  Looking back, I'm not happy about that, lol. 

I got the Treo's as they are a truly high end speaker.  I like them better than many of the 20k speakers out there from others.  They are much more refined than any of the Vandy's below them.  It's a different speaker in every way.  The bass is the one area that some folks say isn't as deep as the 3's etc.., however it's much much more refined.  It goes nearly as low as the 3's, but since it's so accurate to many of us it just sounds more real.  That said, there is a reason they cost more than the 3's.  I have run them with the Ayre AX7e's and now the AX-5/Twenty's.  Yes the Twenty's are THAT Much better, but also at THAT much higher cost.  The 7's ran them just fine. Plenty dynamic and loud enough.  As Richard shared with me before I got the Treo's, don't worry so much about the efficiency of the Treo's as they can be driven just fine with a good clean amp in most rooms.  I've heard them run with a nice NAD integrated amp.  Personally I wanted a much more refined amp, but the NAD was highly musical and enjoyable to listen to with the Treo's.  I'm not rushing to accept the low ball offers I've had for the Treo's, because I'm enjoying the heck out of them still.

They are so refined that you hear the differences, large and small, with all new equipment.  I just sold my Empirical Audio DAC and am using a friends Antelope Gold DAC and I hear the HUGE differences between the two.  I have the Ayre QX5/Twenty on order and can't wait to hear it on Saturday at Audio Connections in Verona, NJ with Alex from Ayre (anyone going?), If so, let me know and say hi. I'm the one in the Rollator, lol.

Anyways, I'm going to hear the differences good or bad between the QX-5 and the Empirical Audio.  The thing is that the Treo's on up are in a totally different league from the 1,2 or 3's.  Richard would tell you the same thing, I promise ...

[hifiman5]

I owned my model 3s for 22 years.  They started as 3s then were upgraded to 3A status and then finally to Signatures.  I enjoyed countless hours of satisfying listening from them.  However, having the Treo CT for a month now I can't believe how much smoother, more finely resolved the sound is now.  If you can wait till you are ready for the Treos that would be the way to go.  Again, nothing at all against the 3A Signature.  They are, like all of Richard's speakers, an amazing value!

If you want some wisdom from the master himself, go tho the Vandersteen Audio site and Click on "Ask Richard" and then use the pull-down menu to get to floor standing speakers.  If you cruise through there a bit you will get a solid sense for Richard's feelings about the speakers in question.

Good luck and happy listening either way you go.

[ctsooner]

I owned my model 3s for 22 years.  They started as 3s then were upgraded to 3A status and then finally to Signatures.  I enjoyed countless hours of satisfying listening from them.  However, having the Treo CT for a month now I can't believe how much smoother, more finely resolved the sound is now.  If you can wait till you are ready for the Treos that would be the way to go.  Again, nothing at all against the 3A Signature.  They are, like all of Richard's speakers, an amazing value!

If you want some wisdom from the master himself, go tho the Vandersteen Audio site and Click on "Ask Richard" and then use the pull-down menu to get to floor standing speakers.  If you cruise through there a bit you will get a solid sense for Richard's feelings about the speakers in question.

Good luck and happy listening either way you go.

Hifiman, so glad you are happy.  As I said, the only reason I'm selling my TReo's is to upgrade to the Quatro's as I want to have the bass flexibility they offer.  I'm very glad so many love their 3's, as well they should, but to think they are in the same category as the Treo's, they just aren't.  For the price Richard couldn't make the 3's sound as good.  There is a reason for the price difference and the cabinet is only part of it.  The Treo's from the mids up are closer to the Quatro at 15k than the 3's are to the Treo.  Either way it's all good as all the speakers are musical.  It's really difficult to beat them in these price ranges and that's why they are so well received and their sales say it all.  Wilson and Vandersteen are at opposite ends of the spectrum. When Wilson started to heavily market their speakers years ago, Richard didn't.  He just kept trying to build the best speaker out there and let his dealer network do the rest.  Sure, they'd both get rave reviews and best of shows.  Both would have their loyal followings, but Wilson put a ton of money into their marketing and they did a GREAT job.  Kudos to them for doing it. They grew to become much larger than Vandersteen.  I think once Richard started to build his boxed speaker line, he's grown and we have all been rewarded by the trickle down effect. 

Can't wait to hear the 7's tomorrow with the Ayre Ref electronics and the new Ayre QX5 at Audio Connections.  The QX5 isn't burned in yet and won't be, but I was told yesterday that it's the best digital they've heard on the 7's to date and Johnny has some other top notch digital in the room that the 7's are in. 

Anyways to the OP, if you are able to, I'd talk to you about my Treo's ....lol... 

[mgsboedmisodpc2]

HiFiman5 can you describe
1) the sound heard upgrading from 3 to 3A status
2) the sound heard upgrading from 3a to 3a Signatures status with pleated midrange cone
3) the sound heard upgrading form the 3A Signatures to the treo


The first upgrade as I understand it was to fix a resonance problem
The current signatures use model 5 pleated cones. and are more of a 4ohm design harder on amps.
The treo I have read are really different speakers all together not sounding like the model 2 or model 3 and as such some people perfer the 3aSig over the TREO

[ctsooner]

I have spent a ton of time with all the Vandersteen's recently.  The difference between the 3 signatures and the Treo's are major.  The 3's are not as resolving, but move more air.  Reading another thread on another site, there are many rock and rollers who don't care as much about the resolution as they do about moving air. The Treo regulars (the one's I'm selling) are a very refined speaker. The bass goes lower than the 3's, but are much more articulate.  They won't move the same amount of air as the drivers are smaller.  I listen to a ton of hard rock and have never felt the Treo's didn't move a good amount of air as they are supposed to be set up within 3 feet of the wall.  They get plenty of reinforcement from the room boundaries in my room and I can tell the definition of the notes all the way down to the low 30's. I have a lot of high res music that goes into the 30's (which is rare) and am very satisfied.  The highs are about 98% of what the CT version will give you, but the CT version is a bit smoother.  For me it didn't justify the price difference at the time.  I'm ready to move up to the Quatro, as that was alway my intent, so that's the only reason I'm selling the Treo.

The 3 signatures, when set up properly, are outstanding in their own right.  They are as good as anything in they price range IMHO and for MY ear.  They will give you a full range sound for rock and orchestral music.  If you don't need the look, smoothness and want more air moved, then the 3's may be what you are looking for, but for me, I wanted a better looking speaker for my room and I had to have the more natural sound that the Treo and now Quatro gives you. 

Richard's upgrades are usually to make a better sounding, more resolving speaker.  For me, the biggest differences in the 3's seem to be in their evolution in regards to resolution.  The bass seems to be identical for my ears. Maybe others feel differently. What he has done is pass down the tweeters and or mids from the higher end speakers. Sometimes it's not the same speaker as for specs, but they are close and will sound much better than the previous model.  Not sure if that helps you out or not.  I'm sure hifiman can give you much more.

[C17FXR]

The treo I have read are really different speakers all together not sounding like the model 2 or model 3 and as such some people perfer the 3aSig over the TREO

Did you write this so that Ctsooner could ride in on his white horse shouting Hi Ho Treo's, Away.  hehehe,

Just kidding CT, thought that was a nice description you gave there.

[ctsooner]

No white horse at all.  I prefer a higher resolution system.  I get more emotionally involved when it's done properly and I feel strongly that is where my system is.  I prefer that to more air movement, but as I said the 3's are still much better than most close to their price range.  No white horse at all  lol