[glrickaby]

I have a complete, bought new, AT92E which sounds good but probably not as
good as the AT95 with the 3003 stylus and plug. The AT95/3003 has a more
forward and somewhat fuller soundstage. I also have an AT92HE (brown wings )
stylus which was bought from one of the Needle Daddy type places on eBay.
Paid like 29.95 for the hyper-elliptical stylus alone.. (at least it was listed as
a hyperelliptical) maker unknown. Since I also have a AT95HE, some interesting
possiblities arise...but trimming wings etc., is involved so don't want to
disfigure too many styli here. The AT92HE when mounted on an AT92 body
does seem to have more detail. The general issue is the 92 pmount body
will only mount on a pmount TT of which, the TT itself is of lower quality. One
can use an adaptor, of course which I guess I can do... Back down here in the
desert, I only have the old Garrard 60, an Ion manual with an S arm and an old
Hitachi linear track which is Pmount. Did pick up an old Sansui QR6500 4
channel with a mint face plate (scratched on top)@$30 which does give the
TT's a more tube like sound...am also rediscovering that some conicals sound
pretty good! Sorry to wander.... when you asked If I'd heard an AT92E...glad
there is an impedance difference on the V. Redeems my faith in CA. There is
an interesting (long) review of the Clearaudio Concept on Audiogon. Makes
it sound like the Virtuoso. Didn't like my comments....

[neobop]

That Sansui sounds pretty cool. Maybe you could pick up some thrift 4-ch records, but I guess you'd need a more extended cart. The rear channels are encoded at 30K I believe. Maybe you'll stumble on an AT-14S or SA, that would do the trick.

I think the difference between the V and 95 might be the wire. The 95 doesn't have the OCC stuff. The coils must be pretty much the same - inductance (close), magnets and output are, so the impedance difference is probably the wire.

I would think the cantilevers are the same on the 3003 and 92? So perhaps you're describing the difference between the 2 with virtually the same stylus. I might have forgotten to mention, someone gave me an original 3400 stylus. They're still available - it's a .7 spherical on a carbon fiber cantilever. It tracks at 2 to 4g. I tried it on the 95 and it sounds pretty good. That HE for $29 seems like a pretty good deal. A 3472VL goes for $80. It seems like the VL has replaced the HE in the Jico line-up. I'm trying to get an answer about the orig 3472ML - whether it's nude or bonded. I guess I could transplant an ATN440MLa, but I'm not sure if it would be right. I think the ML might need an exotic cantilever. I'm afraid it might be too aggressive up top. I have a 140LC that I got for my 440. Initial test was disappointing. I'll have to try it in a different arm. The Alaphason 100S never sounded good with the 440. Best I ever heard that cart was with a 152ML (beryllium/ML) on the Sonus arm. Wish you could have heard that, it was spectacular. At 47K it sounded like a VDH Grasshopper, I shit you not.

I've got a project I'm working on that's taking up a lot of time and I haven't done much lately with audio. If you could use another 92E body and 1/2" mount, send me a PM.
ne0

[Drewdown]

Okay guys bear with me. I am very new to this whole world so please go easy. Glrick, I was referred to this thread from a guy on audiogon. I had the problem of bending my original stylus on my virtuoso. A step by step was posted which you had written. I replaced it with the ATHE and all seems to be successful. I looked for pictures but did not find any that would address my question so... This may be a stupid question but, can you snap off the case the AT comes in? Does that make sense? It does not impact the playing but I am afraid to basically snap it off. If the stylus is installed in the original plug hole, is it removable? As I said, bear with me but this fix was amazing!! It truly sounds great and saved me a ton of money! Thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Drewdown

[neobop]

Hi Drewdown,
I don't know about snapping it off. I use a wire cutter. Hold it firmly and put the flat side of the blade against the plug. Watch for clearance, depending on the size of your cutter.  The angle of the blades will give you a little lip on the bottom of the plug, like this:









This is an ATN95E stylus with the excess plastic removed. To remove it from the body, just carefully pry it out by the lip to get it started.

[glrickaby]

Once implanted, with or without the "wings", it can always be pryed back out so the
Virtuoso thus has an immortal life with an owner replaceable stylus! By the way, I
think trimming to the plug does improve the sound. It certainly tends to keep the
original appearance. This also works on the Linn K series which seem to have a
similar body to the Virtuoso.

[Drewdown]

You guys rock! Thanks so much!

[neobop]

Could be the Jico is not a Jico. Understand there are 3 makers in Japan. May have picked that up
from the Turntable Needles site. In any case, the Jico is bonded whereas the AT7V is a nude,
square shank, tapered shaft. Though not a Shibata, it is .0002 Elliptical which in my book, means
it has a somewhat less astringent sound than a Shibata bonded. I use my AT7V in its original gold
body. Also am currently using a Excel S700ER 0.2 x 0.8 in my Garrott K-2 body which may be higher
quality than the original K-2 stylus. Sounds so good, I sold my other new K-2 where Decibel sent
me a complete unit when I only ordered the stylus. Incidently, I sold my Virtuoso/Shibata finally
to finance ongoing.....who knows? Am also playing an At13EA body with a Precept 220 stylus-
trimmed down of course, which is quite similar to the AT7V. I had Soundsmith do a BPS retip
and then broke it again....glad it wasn't a "Ruuuuby! (ha) Incidently, NOS AT Precept 220's are
going for 2@69.00 on the Bay if any of you experimentors need good AT styli.

I remembered Glrickaby mentioning the Precept PC-220 stylus quite a while ago on this thread. I should have picked up a Precept body back then and checked it out. I had been looking at a PCN550ML stylus for years at LpGear, but didn't even know what other carts it fit. It's a beryllium/ML.

The Precept line was like the AT Signet line, requiring a separate dealer franchise. It must have begun before the Signets, all the carts have a round plug. Now, a year or two later it turns out that Raul, the guru on the Agon MM/MC thread, thinks the PC-440LC is the absolute best.  You might take this with a grain of salt and I admit I question the methodology, but this guy has tried a million different carts and identifies the winners consistently.   
He's now getting back into MCs and finds some are better than former top MMs.  This resurgence started out as recommendations from J Carr - ones with coils having non-permeable cores. You might think it's easy to pick the TOTL from hundreds over the years.  It's not.

So, I picked up one of the last PCN550ML stylus and I'm currently trying it on an AT-15SS body. I normally use an AT15 or 20SS stylus on there - beryllium/shibata. I know you're all sitting on the edge of your seat for results, but you'll have to be patient. These are delicate matters, LOL.

There's a ton of good information in this thread, which now covers some of the history of AT, Signet, Precept, and Clearaudio MM. Further questions, comments or contributions gratefully accepted.
neo
 

[jimdgoulding]

Neo, a question for thou.  There are several shaped styli, as you know.  And there are pivoted tonearns and radial tracking ones.  Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that depending on the cut of the stylus, some might be better on one than on the other.  An epiliptical stylus would seem to fit both.  However, a stylus with fine honed edges may be more suitable for a radial tracking arm than a pivoted one.  That makes any sense??  If so, what is your take?  Thanks

[dlaloum]

Whether pivoted or radial, the objective of any arm is to get the needle perfectly geometrically positioned on the record groove.

The better the arm, the better it achieves that goal.

Pivoted arms have a variable level of "error" based on their geometry (when properly adjusted they usually have two points on the record of zero error, and the further they track from those points the higher the error), and the longer the arm the lower the max error.... Linear/Parallel tracking arms have a more linear error/position relationship with in many cases a very low tracking error and the tracking error being relatively non variant across the surface of the record. (so the sound does not change from start to finish of record on a linear, where it can vary more greatly on a pivoted)

Lots of other pros and cons between various arms, but the crux of the matter is this:

the finer the edge of the stylus, the more sensitive it can be to tracking error - a conical/spherical tip is relatively insensitive to minor tracking errors, and a ultra fine micro-ridge type is very sensitive - a 0.2 tip eliptical is just as sensitive as many micro-ridge types - the side (contact) radius being the critical aspect....

So there are many good reasons to use a spherical/conical tip on very basic turntables where the tracking is more likely to be suspect!

Once you reach a certain level of quality - the decision is driven by many many other variables, but whether the arm is pivoted or linear is definitely not one of them. (whether the arm is well engineered or not is more of an issue!!)

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Great answer David, as usual.  I don't have anything to add.

A question for you:  I saw an old post on VE about a PC-110, I believe.  You said that inductance was 1050mH?  I was told that the higher numbered PC models have impedance around 500 ohms and inductance somewhat less than 500mH.  If that is correct it would seem like the AT-12S/SA might be their counterparts, if there are counterparts.  It seems like a big jump going from 1050mH to less than half that.  Any other info on the Precepts?
neo

[dlaloum]

Hi Neo,

I have a Precept PC110 body which measures 1038/1013mH and 1165/1168 ohm

I agree that the closest mainstream AT siblings seem to the the AT12/13...

Although mine is a lowly 110 the measurements are very closely matched - more so than the AT12's I have measured - which appears consistent with AT hand picking the bodies for their premium series

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Hi Neo,

I have a Precept PC110 body which measures 1038/1013mH and 1165/1168 ohm

I agree that the closest mainstream AT siblings seem to the the AT12/13...

Although mine is a lowly 110 the measurements are very closely matched - more so than the AT12's I have measured - which appears consistent with AT hand picking the bodies for their premium series

bye for now

David

Thanks David, I figured there was no mistake in that old post I dug up.  Not exactly sure where this puts the PC-440/550. The AT-12S/Sa have an impedance of 500 ohms, at least that's what the VE database shows, they seem to be the only ones from back then with a low impedance like that. Looks like they share the same body and have a different cantilever w/bonded shibata.  I guess the low impedance is for 4-ch high freq response (45K), probably low inductance and output is 2.7mV, also rather low.

Somebody on Karma told me about the low impedance and inductance of the PC-440, it might be true, only the output is higher - 4.2mV, which would imply more coil windings. Has Raul invited you to visit in Mexico? That might be a fun vacation even if it's a long ride from New Zealand.  If you go, don't forget to take your meters.   
neo   

[dlaloum]

It would be fun!

But having just come back from my cousins wedding in Washington (along with side trips to NY and New Orleans).... and expecting a baby in a couple of months (our babymoon)- along with renovations (baby generated - our first) - the TT's are being packed away along with a LOT of other stuff...

A trip to Mexico might be a while away!

bye for now

David

[neobop]

It would be fun!

But having just come back from my cousins wedding in Washington (along with side trips to NY and New Orleans).... and expecting a baby in a couple of months (our babymoon)- along with renovations (baby generated - our first) - the TT's are being packed away along with a LOT of other stuff...

A trip to Mexico might be a while away!

bye for now

David

Congratulations, on the blessed event to be.  Packing away the tables?  Don't know what to say, but hope everything comes out all right.  Luck and good fortune to you and your family.

Getting back to really important matters,     I tried the PCN550ML on the AT15.  It sounds good, but bass was deficient.  I only had a couple of hrs on it, but I figured I choose the wrong arm - the Unitrac. In removing the stylus I noticed that it might not have been seated 100%, so I cleaned up the plastic trim and I'm about to try it on the Alphason 100S. I probably just need some hrs on it.

In the mean time, I think I figured out the PC-440 counterparts. There are a few 12E and 13E variants with 4.2mV and 1200 ohm impedance. I know the output is right, and they seem to be the only ones.  The impedance might be right based on your DC resistance measurement of the 110.  I found a 12E body that looks to be in good shape.  I should have it this weekend.

Raul's a laugh a minute, or I should say every few weeks.  Now the AT-150ANV is tied for first with the PC-440LC.  I honestly don't know how he does it, loading every MM at 100K and 350pF on the ANV.  Maybe the cart is extended enough that he cap play it at 100K and control it with capacitance?  Every time I tried 100K with one of my MM, I got an ear bleed.  I must have messed up the capacitance thing, or maybe just different preamps. 

Stay tuned to this channel kids, for the next exciting adventure!!!
Do these carts really beat Goldfinger, Atlas and Universe?
What combination of inductance and impedance wins the HO lifetime achievement award?
neo

 

 

[dlaloum]

Yes - I experimented with 100k - and quickly eased back off it - depending on the cartridge I can set up R up to around 75k.... but so far never 100k!

Worth remembering that the magnetic strength of the magnets will also impact on the output - so some of the AT styli may have used superior magnet materials, rather than having more coils?

I do enjoy Raul's thread though....

We are moving out of home for a few months into a much smaller space, while the house gets a new kitchen, bathroom, laundry and sundry other reno's ....

I am also redesigning my TT setup in the lounge room to make it somewhat toddler proof... so no TT's for probably 6 months

bye for now

David

[neobop]

When I switched the AT15 to the Alphason, I noticed the stylus didn't seem to be seated properly, a good reason to be bass deficient.  I cleaned up the plastic trim and after some more hrs, I'm starting to get some extraordinary results. It's rather confusing because I'm using a new line stage, a JC2 clone which can sound lean in the midbass when paired with the wrong amp/speakers. The long cables I had on the Alphason arm were great with the MC I was using, but were too bright with the AT. So, instead of using an older more forgiving phono stage, I moved the AHT over, put it right behind the TT, and I could use some 1' long VDH cables and put everything under microscopic analysis, so to speak.

The AT15 sounds like a different cart with the Precept 550ML stylus. The 15/20SS normally sounds lovely, nice detail and stage and all that with a touch of sweetness in the high end, which tends to make things more palatable. It's a terrific cart if you're looking for resolution, clarity and listenability with a natural sounding presentation. With the new stylus it sounds positively live, super detailed, revealing and unforgiving. This set up isn't 100% yet, but it's getting there. I only have 50pF in the AHT and I think I could use another 50pF with these cables.  I'm running this at 47K.  Gain is set for around 42dB.  The JC-2 clone has 14dB gain, but on this set up I can get away with using a passive preamp. Lots of combos to try.

The stylus might not be entirely broken in yet. A new AT stylus might take anywhere from 3 to 8 hrs to break in mechanically. This stylus seems different from other ATs.  I had a beryllium/ML before, the 152ML.  I tried it in a low mass arm with the 440 body.  It was amazing.  I had the 440 loaded at 32K to prevent ear bleed, and I changed it 47K with the 152ML stylus. I think I would have settled on something like 42K, if I had the resistors on hand.  The PCN550ML seems to be different in the way it changed the sound.  I only have 30x magnification at the moment, but I think this beryllium cantilever might have a titanium sleeve, and the ML diamond looks bigger than the more modern ML which are so small I can barely see them with 30X.  I'll have to get more magnification.

Look how ugly looking it is, all chopped up.  I didn't like the look anyway. It's only a stylus and at least it's not broken. This is normally my "B" set up:








neo

[neobop]

David mentioned magnet strength as a possible variable with cart specs.  With AT generators there are a couple of examples that seem to indicate that only output voltage is affected.  The new Clearaudio line of MMs has stronger magnets for increased output and inductance/impedance are virtually unchanged.
The orig 440ML OCC has a higher output than the 440MLa. The specs are identical except for output. The orig 440 stylus (w/magnets) is available at LpGear, for additional price. I believe if this is used with a 440MLa, it will be identical to the orig 440.  They must have used neo magnets.   

I should be picking up the AT-12E body tomorrow. It may take awhile, I'll let you know.
neo   

[neobop]

I have the AT-12E and I don't know. It came w/o a stylus and I'm reluctant to mess with the PCN550ML for this el cheapo looking cart.  I'm still tweaking the stylus on the AT-15 so I'm going to think it over.

The problem is the front plastic part has only 2mm clearance to the bottom, so I'd have to trim the stylus plastic more.  I was thinking of nuding the stylus like an Clearaudio, but the plug is round and I'm afraid it might twist slightly.  The cart looks like the plastic part that holds the pins is one piece that includes the top and front.  I don't think there is even a screw holding the plastic piece to the body, so I won't be able to pot it.  I never saw one of these before and it's kind of disappointing.  I'll take a pic and show you. 

In the mean time the stylus is settling in on the 15.  It's fascinating how the sound changes.  I think it might be best on a higher inductance cart, like a SAS on a Shure M97. 
neo

[neobop]

I guess the cart doesn't look so bad.  I wish it had a removable top

I measured the resistance at around 1.1K ohm.  Impedance is supposed to be 1200 ohms, and output is the same V as the PC-440. This is getting interesting.  Maybe I will check it out
neo

[glrickaby]

Neo- I have a PC220 which may have the same skirt as your 550. I trimmed the side skirt back far enough to fit flush against
the top of the black part shown in your picture. Since there is still some side wall, the stylus is stable and won't move from
side to side. In addition, it is still usable in any other round plug body, including the Precept. My impression is the stylus is
probably lower compliance than the AT12 but then again, I have not played it for awhile.... my recollection is it sounded
more like the AT7V than other AT's but then again my memory is sometimes faulty....It is a perfect fit with about 75% of
the sidewall gone... Just played it and it has more "shimmer" than the AT7V and sounds quite good on a Dual CS450 with
the modern plastic headshell -different sound than the Ortofon MC-10 Super I took off but still very pleasant.