Class D versus the rest

Freo-1 · « **Reply #680 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 09:01 pm »

Nope. That's why I said that there are always new toys out there to check out.

A audiophiles view of the world is always subject to change.

Having said that, physics is physics after all.

werd · « **Reply #681 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 09:09 pm »

Delete lost half the message somehow

Freo-1 · « **Reply #682 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 09:11 pm »

The Pioneer SX-1250 has that sound you describe. Not neutral, but enjoyable, with LOTS of grunt.

werd · « **Reply #683 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 09:43 pm »

You beat me to it. They have this really synthetic Hi-Fi sound to it. Both my Chapter and The Devaliet. It's not neutral but definite Hi Fi. Like Japanese Receiver Hi-Fi. It works only because all the distortion and noise have been engineered out of it. I did hear the Devaliet with a pair of Focals and Clear Audio TT that didn't work for me.

I like Micromega too.

OzarkTom · « **Reply #684 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 10:21 pm »

Quote from: Freo-1 on 30 Oct 2014, 08:26 pm

Now, regarding these Crown amps, would like to more. Every Class D amp I've owned or heard/auditioned had issues with sounding 2D, lacked a bit of bass, and sounded a bit off in the presence region. OTOH, the high power and clarity is very welcome with a lot of music.

No 2D on my Zellatons. I have a very wide soundstage and lots of depth. The Zellatons totally disappear.

Freo-1 · « **Reply #685 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 10:55 pm »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 28 Oct 2014, 11:01 pm

It is nice to have the option to lower it or crank it up. 9 0'clock setting gives me about 20-25 WPC on my 85db Zellatons.. 12 o'clock and it is more like 75-100 WPC. I will never use the 375 WPC.

So, you are only using a fraction of the power. How does the Crown compare to the Job 225? More importantly, is it STILL as good with the gain wide open? (I suspect not.) The reason I'm asking is that some of us have speakers that are 85 db/w, and while the extra power is always welcome, it may lose some of it's better qualities with the higher gain setting.

mr_bill · « **Reply #686 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 02:10 am »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 30 Oct 2014, 10:21 pm

No 2D on my Zellatons. I have a very wide soundstage and lots of depth. The Zellatons totally disappear.

Tom, where are you setting the gain with your Zellatons?

OzarkTom · « **Reply #687 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 02:13 am »

Quote from: Freo-1 on 30 Oct 2014, 10:55 pm

So, you are only using a fraction of the power. How does the Crown compare to the Job 225? More importantly, is it STILL as good with the gain wide open? (I suspect not.) The reason I'm asking is that some of us have speakers that are 85 db/w, and while the extra power is always welcome, it may lose some of it's better qualities with the higher gain setting.

I cranked it up to 1 o'clock tonight, much louder than I normally listen. No hardness or AC harshness at all. The SQ surprised me again, I have about 200 hours on it. I played quite a few of my bad recordings and they were much, much better sounding, more open with a bigger soundstage and no harshness. So the amp must be breaking in even more. My Zellatons are 85db so no worries on the volume, Keith.

Crown is just more quiet, detailed and clearer than the Job. I still might keep the Job, not sure.

Freo-1 · « **Reply #688 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 02:22 am »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 31 Oct 2014, 02:13 am

I cranked it up to 1 o'clock tonight, much louder than I normally listen. No hardness or AC harshness at all. The SQ surprised me again, I have about 200 hours on it. I played quite a few of my bad recordings and they were much, much better sounding, more open with a bigger soundstage and no harshness. So the amp must be breaking in even more. My Zellatons are 85db so no worries on the volume, Keith.

Crown is just more quiet, detailed and clearer than the Job. I still might keep the Job, not sure.

Thanks, Tom. I wonder how it would compare to my AW2-120. The Electrocompaniet is the best SS amp I have experienced.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #689 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 02:25 am »

Tom, you are leaving it on 24/7 correct?
Scotty

OzarkTom · « **Reply #690 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 02:33 am »

I decided to do some research on these Crown amps. I thought maybe they were fresh and new but they won a lot of rewards at the CES show Jan. 10. The amps were shipped April of that year, here is the notice.

http://harmanprogroup.blogspot.com/2010/04/crown-begins-shipping-highly.html

In the article, Harmon states that they included a power conditioner in the amps so you do not have to use a separate line conditioner. That must be the reason I am enjoying this amp at such a loud volume and no hardness. All other class D amps I have had here sounded very harsh.

Harmon has very deep pockets. Most of you probably know, but here is a list of their companies that they own beside Levinson.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Solutions/Harmanbrands/Pages/MarkLevinson.aspx

Actually, Dave and I are almost 5 years late on finding what this amp sounds like.

Since these amps has been out for almost 5 years, the coming CES show in Jan. just might see Harmon introducing a new lineup of the amps. So keep a close watch.

OzarkTom · « **Reply #691 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 02:35 am »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 31 Oct 2014, 02:25 am

Tom, you are leaving it on 24/7 correct?
Scotty

Yes, but my Sony shut off today and it took that 30 minutes to warm back up.

barrows · « **Reply #692 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 03:34 am »

Quote from: OzarkTom on 31 Oct 2014, 02:33 am

I decided to do some research on these Crown amps. I thought maybe they were fresh and new but they won a lot of rewards at the CES show Jan. 10. The amps were shipped April of that year, here is the notice.

http://harmanprogroup.blogspot.com/2010/04/crown-begins-shipping-highly.html

In the article, Harmon states that they included a power conditioner in the amps so you do not have to use a separate line conditioner. That must be the reason I am enjoying this amp at such a loud volume and no hardness. All other class D amps I have had here sounded very harsh.

Harmon has very deep pockets. Most of you probably know, but here is a list of their companies that they own beside Levinson.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Solutions/Harmanbrands/Pages/MarkLevinson.aspx

Actually, Dave and I are almost 5 years late on finding what this amp sounds like.
Since these amps has been out for almost 5 years, the coming CES show in Jan. just might see Harmon introducing a new lineup of the amps. So keep a close watch.

All SMPS include a "built in power conditioner", especially the high power ones used in most class D amplifiers. The power filtration has to be included to keep the SMPS from putting huge amounts of noise back onto the AC line. Without this power filtration, the amplifiers would not pass FCC (in the US) and CE (which is even stricter, in the EU) regulations. I highly doubt that the power filtration included in the Crown amplifiers is anything special in comparison to other SMPS equipped class D options. Certainly nothing in the pictures looks very special in comparison to Hypex SMPS designs, or the ICEpower modules I am familiar with.

jackman · « **Reply #693 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 05:05 pm »

Quote from: barrows on 31 Oct 2014, 03:34 am

All SMPS include a "built in power conditioner", especially the high power ones used in most class D amplifiers. The power filtration has to be included to keep the SMPS from putting huge amounts of noise back onto the AC line. Without this power filtration, the amplifiers would not pass FCC (in the US) and CE (which is even stricter, in the EU) regulations. I highly doubt that the power filtration included in the Crown amplifiers is anything special in comparison to other SMPS equipped class D options. Certainly nothing in the pictures looks very special in comparison to Hypex SMPS designs, or the ICEpower modules I am familiar with.

Please stop trying to use logic in this conversation! :wink:I admittedly have not heard these amps but look forward to auditioning them in the future. In my experience, cheap Class D amps deliver lots of watts but lack refinement and sound very 2D as others have pointed out. All class D amps require conditioning and, as you stated, they all have it built in. The pro Crown looks to be suited for a supwoofer application and I'm excited about the prospect of replacing my current pro amp (Crown K1) and Behringer DCX with the Crown and using the internal Xover. I'm less hopeful of replacing my NCore amps with the Crown if it's anything like the other pro, Class D amps I have heard in the past. Time will tell...

randytsuch · « **Reply #694 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 05:21 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 31 Oct 2014, 05:05 pm

Please stop trying to use logic in this conversation! :wink:I admittedly have not heard these amps but look forward to auditioning them in the future. In my experience, cheap Class D amps deliver lots of watts but lack refinement and sound very 2D as others have pointed out. All class D amps require conditioning and, as you stated, they all have it built in. The pro Crown looks to be suited for a supwoofer application and I'm excited about the prospect of replacing my current pro amp (Crown K1) and Behringer DCX with the Crown and using the internal Xover. I'm less hopeful of replacing my NCore amps with the Crown if it's anything like the other pro, Class D amps I have heard in the past. Time will tell...

I was also looking at using either the Crown or Behringer for a sub amp. I "settled" on a mini dsp and an older crown, the previous generation that does not have dsp built in. This combination was around the same price, but has a lot more flexibility. The dsp's in the crown and behringer are cool for an amp, but they won't do everything a mini dsp can do.

I recommend looking at the user manual to make sure they will provide the functionality you want.

As an aside, looking forward to running REW and doing some low frequency tweaking with the minidsp.

Randy

werd · « **Reply #695 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 05:22 pm »

And try not to talk about class D distortion

mr_bill · « **Reply #696 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 07:12 pm »

Quote from: jackman on 31 Oct 2014, 05:05 pm

Please stop trying to use logic in this conversation! :wink:I admittedly have not heard these amps but look forward to auditioning them in the future. In my experience, cheap Class D amps deliver lots of watts but lack refinement and sound very 2D as others have pointed out. All class D amps require conditioning and, as you stated, they all have it built in. The pro Crown looks to be suited for a supwoofer application and I'm excited about the prospect of replacing my current pro amp (Crown K1) and Behringer DCX with the Crown and using the internal Xover. I'm less hopeful of replacing my NCore amps with the Crown if it's anything like the other pro, Class D amps I have heard in the past. Time will tell...

jackman, do you find the highs to be correct and not missing anything and the stage to be 3d with the NCores in your experience?

jackman · « **Reply #697 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 08:52 pm »

Quote from: mr_bill on 31 Oct 2014, 07:12 pm

jackman, do you find the highs to be correct and not missing anything and the stage to be 3d with the NCores in your experience?

Yes, the highs on the nCore are the best I've heard, compared to any amp I've owned or tested on my system. They have excellent detail, very 3D imaging and the mids are as good as I've heard. I have separate power on my woofers so I can't comment on how the nCore does with woofers, although there are enough positive reviews on-line.

I could not live with a 2D amp. The nCore has a deep, wide soundstage and my system has pinpoint imaging. I look forward to hearing the Crown amps. They are inexpensive and have cool features. If they sound as good as my current amp, I'll keep them. If they sound good, period, even if it's not as good as my current amp, I'll keep them for a second system. Maybe pair them up with some Murphy/Pioneer BS22's.

mr_bill · « **Reply #698 on:** 2 Nov 2014, 09:44 pm »

How are the Crown XLS users getting along. Anything new to report?
Can I use spade connectors? Or am I going to have to get spade to banana adapters.

Rclark · « **Reply #699 on:** 3 Nov 2014, 08:44 am »

Everything Jackman said, yes. I will add since he hasn't used them on his woofers, and I have used them full range on everything, they have exquisite, and I mean, exquisite bass.

They deserve to be in any conversation involving end game amplifiers. Not bad for DIY kits.

As he says he could not live with a 2D amp, me neither, if I felt my amps were lacking, I would have moved on long ago. They are the real deal.