[coffeecup]

My wife and I purchased a new/old home. In the process of setting up the family room we have realized that the Paradigm Studio 60s, v3, are just too big for our small room. They look kinda silly.

So she is requesting smaller speakers. I am concerned because I'm stuck with the laws of physics, and concerned that smaller speakers just won't hold a candle to the Paradigms. We would ideally like something I can set on a shelf next to the television.

But perhaps I am wrong. Given my limited budget, the idea of building GR Research speakers is very appealing.

So I appeal to greater minds than my own for suggestions. As a note, I have the Paradigms hooked to a NAD C370.

Any suggestions on what I can replace this setup with, and perhaps reduce the size to a shelf-sized speaker?

[milford3]

You can't go wrong with the RS5 driver.


http://omegaloudspeakers.com/super3i.html

[RDavidson]

How big is the room and is a subwoofer (or 2) a consideration?

[Folsom]

Well I've never been impressed with Paradigm stuff I've heard... I think you'd be pretty happy with a good GR kit. The Paradigms don't play that low anyway, so moving to a bookshelf isn't that big of a deal. But you'll need stands so hopefully those are WAF'dable.

[corndog71]

In what way are a pair of tower speakers silly?  I think they look pretty nice. 

I suppose if you want something smaller then build a pair of x-ls encore speakers.  They still have decent bass for a "bookshelf speaker".

[mlundy57]

I just posted this comment in another thread but it is relevant here also. If you are replacing floorstanders you basicaly have three options, a pair of the bookshelf speakers like the X-LS Encores or the larger X-CS Encores (3 driver MTM version of the X-LS intended for use as a center channel but also great as left and right main speakers) or the X-MTM Encores which are X-CS Encores in a full length cabinet but may be too large for your room.

The X-LS or X-CS Encores would need speaker stands. The speaker/stand combination doesn't take up any more floor space than the towers do and the cost of the extra wood is usually cheaper than the cost of a good pair of stands. Going with the floorstanding version would give you a lot more bass extension than either of the smaller cabinets would.

Unless you decided to put a pair of the X-LS or X-CS Encores on a pair of Danny's Best Speaker Stand Ever.  Now that would be one heck of a combo.   http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=129161.0  Here's a couple of pics Danny posted in his thread:





Using these as stands will relieve any worries about not having enough bass in the system

You also might want to give serious consideration to Danny's newest design, the Skinny 6
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135458.0  Here's a couple of pics of them from Danny's thread:






Yes they are towers but the pictures make them look a lot bigger than they really are. At 4 1/2"W x 13"D x 41"H they are small towers but from what Danny says with really big sound. From my experience with these LGK drivers in my desktop speakers and Wedgies I can believe it.  Since the Skinny 6's are -3dB at 70Hz you would need one of the servo subs to go with them.

Another option would be the bookshelves paired with one of Danny's 12" sealed servo subs. In my living room I have a pair of N3 towers (the ones in my avatar) paired with one 12" sealed servo sub. I cross the towers to the subs at 40Hz. With the X-LS Encores, X-CS Encores or the Skinny 6's you would cross over to the subs around 80Hz.

If you have never heard one of the GR-Research/Rythmik Direct Servo subs you might be inclined to think sub woofers cannot be musical nor could they blend well or keep up with main speakers. Nothing could be further from the truth with these.

Mike

[opnly bafld]

The Paradigms don't play that low anyway, so moving to a bookshelf isn't that big of a deal.

 

From the Stereophile measurements:    ".........these curves suggest that the Studio/60 offers excellent low-frequency extension. In-room, with the usual boundary reinforcement, the Paradigm should offer a full measure of bass down to the 31.5Hz band, as Kal found."

[Folsom]

Their specs on paradigms website say nothing about the 30's.

[Danny Richie]

I'm measured and tested the Studio 60's.

There were numerous issues with them including the drivers not being in phase. And the response was a bit rough.



The edge diffraction from around the tweeter disrupted the response pretty badly too. So thick felt around it helped a lot.



They don't exactly use high quality crossover parts.

So she is requesting smaller speakers. I am concerned because I'm stuck with the laws of physics, and concerned that smaller speakers just won't hold a candle to the Paradigms. We would ideally like something I can set on a shelf next to the television.

So I can confidently say that the Studio 60's won't hold a candle to any of our kits.

[Folsom]

Danny their tweeters sound pathetic compared to the Encore's, so I'm sure they can't even come close to the N series. The woofers are really narrow in sound too, by comparison. At a shop a friend tried to play some for me saying they were pretty nice and I don't know what he was talking about, to be frank.

[NeilT]

I got a weigh in here.
I had the Paradigm Signature S4's, and thought that they were great.
Until I free demoed Danny's N2X's.

Short story, I could not sell the Paradigm's fast enough.
I bought an OB7 kit, no looking back.

It was like the Paradigm's were wrapped up in a sleeping bag.
Do yourself a huge favor and check out Danny's stuff.

Danny, are the N's still out there for demo?

Neil

[Folsom]

I think it's easy to underestimate Danny's stuff because one who buys DIY speakers that aren't a fortune, are not likely to have expensive electronics... but you should, it's a lot better . I've heard better speakers but sometimes even when they're better in numerous ways, they aren't as balanced.

[JLM]

Coffeecup what exactly do you mean by the Paradigm 60 v.3 looking silly big?  How big is the family room?  Can you download images?  I'm a firm believer in the foundational need for deep bass, but many try to put too much bass in relatively small rooms, and deep bass can be an expensive/trouble prone adventure.

Realize that nearly all "serious" speakers are going to be roughly the size of the 60 v.3: tweeters should be at listening ear height; base should be wide enough to prevent tip over; and enough space should be provided behind/around the speaker to allow for proper imaging/bass performance.  Going smaller would mean smaller drivers and normally also means losing mid/bass (100 - 200 Hz) body (typical subwoofer wouldn't help) - a 5 - 7 inch driver would be indicated.  Use of multiple drivers can cause comb (wave interference between the drivers) effect (the same effect produced at crossover frequencies between woofer/midrange or midrange/tweeter).

Paradigm speakers represent good value (drivers made in-house, volume production numbers, extensive testing at the Canadian Research Council - CRC facilities).  Probably the biggest criticism of them is that they lack "personality" which I would characterize as an artificial "hi-fi" sound versus convincing musical presentation of un-amplified instruments/voice common among a huge majority of speakers across a wide price range that may not be a problem if you only listen to amplified music.  The current 60 v5 are thinner with (3) 5 inch drivers versus (2) 7 inch drivers and deeper bass response (29 Hz versus 46 Hz).  Don't know why Danny's measurements don't agree with Stereophile or why they'd look that poor coming out of the CRC.

[coffeecup]

Very helpful info so far, thank you all.

The room is 13 feet wide and 18 feet deep. The couch is 12 feet from the wall.

I like the idea of smaller speakers with a subwoofer. Anything too far from the wall will interfere with the doorway, so I would like to have the speakers against the wall. I realize this is not ideal.

So if you to choose a model of GR Research speakers to put on a shelf next to the TV, with a sub, what would you recommend?

This is the room:

[macrojack]

Post your location and ask if there is anyone local who can help in any way. Speakers are expensive to ship so local purchase from a trusted AC member could be advantageous in several ways. That said, your room has many challenges. First thing would be separate  your speakers as much more as you can. Cover your floor with a thick area rug.

If a complete makeover is a consideration, investigate the world of professional studio monitors which are designed for near field listening. On a whim, I bought a pair of discontinued KRK Rokit 8 active monitors. They aren't the last word in detail but provide very surprising bass performance and convey your music and video dialogue quite well. These can be found online for under $500/pr. There are other, and perhaps better, options out there from companies like Emotiva, JBL, Neumann, etc.
That takes care of amps and speakers. Consider an Emotiva Stealth DC-1 to use as DAC/preamp. It is a DAC with multiple difital inputs, an analog input, and a remote for $500 or less depending on the deal you can find. Worth considering. It's really a whole new system. You'll want to use your current sources and pick up a pair of balanced cables to run between DAC and speakers.

I can't see the rear of your room but perhaps a closely configured system at the far end might work better acoustically and logistically. Putting the piano as far as possible from your speakers might provide benefit as well. Stringed instruments have a tendency to resonate at certain frequencies in sympathy with your speakers. Maybe the piano would work well where the system is now.

Good luck. It looks challenging.

[Danny Richie]

You do have a challenging room. You have a lot of up side potential. And just how good you want it to sound will depend on how much effort you put into treating your room and controlling room reflections.

Spreading your speakers out is a good start.

Treat the bare wall behind the speakers. There are a lot of options here. I'd be inclined to start with fiberglass duct board. It is a compressed fiberglass with an aluminum foil backer. It is used for making air conditioning ducts and is cheap and commonly available. It is also real easy to wrap with fabric that matches your wall and simply tape it to the foil side with duct tape. Then just hang them on the wall.

A big throw rug on the floor will help a lot too.

The corner to the left could use some type of a tube trap. You can DIY that too.

As for speakers any of our small stand mounted speakers will play down low enough to reach a sub and be just as solid through the 100Hz to 200Hz region as any large driver speaker. Most of our mini monitors will play down to 55Hz or so. And you have plenty of room for a small sub.

You can even build a sealed version of the X-LS for close wall placement. And they are far more accurate than most of the recommended studio monitors. And I have measured and test a bunch of them. Most of the active models use really cheap amps and the combo typical sounds like they are playing through a wet rag.

Keep in mind though that a stand mounted mini monitor takes up just as much floor space as a floor standing speaker. So you could go with the A/V-3 and flip flop the design to allow the transmission line to exit out the front.  That would be a big performance jump for you.

Another thing to consider is that you can move your speakers well out into the room for critical listening enjoyment. Then move them back to the wall for background music.

[coffeecup]

Thank you Danny, very helpful.

Regarding the sealed version of the X-LS, do I merely build the suggested box but leave the back solid?
http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/x-ls%20classic%20box.pdf

And which woofer/amplifier do you recommend to complement?

[Captainhemo]

Even just buildit as is and plug the port, that way if you ever do move them off the wall, you simply have to unplug the port, gives you options.

sW12 04  http://gr-research.com/sw-12-04.aspx
A370PEQ  http://gr-research.com/a370peq.aspx
Enclosure  http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/singleservo.pdf

Those cabinets you posted the link for are for he X LS cabinets,  the Encores are different as they use  a different tweeter
http://gr-research.com/pdf/X-LS%20Encore%20box.pdf

jay

[Danny Richie]

Thank you Danny, very helpful.

Regarding the sealed version of the X-LS, do I merely build the suggested box but leave the back solid?
http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/x-ls%20classic%20box.pdf

And which woofer/amplifier do you recommend to complement?

Yes, just leave off the port and it is in an ideal sealed box.

Amplification is for these can vary quite a bit. You can drive them with just about anything. They are an easy load to drive. They are very revealing of what goes in and really shine with high end gear. But they are also pretty forgiving when used with lower priced budget gear.

[coffeecup]

Gents, thank you for all the help.

I hope to return at some point with photos of the results.