Speaker Conundrum

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mresseguie

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Speaker Conundrum
« on: 26 Mar 2017, 04:03 pm »
Pretty much ever since my passion for audio was reawakened about four years ago, I have primarily listened to box speakers. These produce that sweet spot sound stage loved by audiophiles the world over. I've also spent some time listening to OB designs. Now - just in the last month - I have listened to some really nice horn speakers.

The horn speakers threw me for a loop. I kept trying to 'see' the soundstage/sweet spot, but really didn't. The music sounded fantastic, but I couldn't see the musicians between the speakers.

Is this lack of soundstage consistent with horn speakers? Do they make great music without delivering a three-dimensional soundstage?

Listening to these speakers has made me question what I want (or think I want) for an audio experience. Do I want box speakers that can produce a wonderful 3D effect, or do I want the clarity and openness of horn speakers? [I haven't neglected OB. It's probably not especially practical in my living room in Taiwan. WAF issues would hound me.]

Electrostatic speakers sound wonderful, too, but my dear wife might take a meat cleaver to me if I tried placing them in our living room.

Some of you are OB guys (A). Some are box speaker guys (B). Some are horn guys (C). Go ahead and tell me what makes you want to own A, B, or C speakers. Sorry, no D for this exercise.

Thanks for any thoughts. I'm all eyes.

Michael
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2017, 04:23 pm by mresseguie »

JakeJ

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #1 on: 27 Mar 2017, 03:56 am »
This is my .02 on horn based speaker systems.  You have to have a very large space because to get that center image you need to sit far enough away for them to work.  Part of the problem is the horn itself which has directivity as opposed to dispersion.  Horns can be very colored as well.  A box speaker with the typical dome tweeter has almost 180 degrees of sound output as the designer is trying to mimic what the microphone picks up, most of which are nearly omnidirectional.

The horn has anywhere from 40 to 60 degrees of dispersion so you need to sit quite a ways away to get the center fill in the sonic image.

Planars can get there if properly set up but the best ones are large just like the horns.

If you want an excellent 3D image and can't, or don't want to, live with big speakers you might consider a small to medium monitor with subwoofers to fill in the lower octaves.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #2 on: 27 Mar 2017, 04:09 am »
This is my .02 on horn based speaker systems.  You have to have a very large space because to get that center image you need to sit far enough away for them to work.  Part of the problem is the horn itself which has directivity as opposed to dispersion.  Horns can be very colored as well.  A box speaker with the typical dome tweeter has almost 180 degrees of sound output as the designer is trying to mimic what the microphone picks up, most of which are nearly omnidirectional.

The horn has anywhere from 40 to 60 degrees of dispersion so you need to sit quite a ways away to get the center fill in the sonic image.

Planars can get there if properly set up but the best ones are large just like the horns.

If you want an excellent 3D image and don't, or can't, live with big speakers you might consider a small to medium monitor with subwoofers to fill in the lower octaves.

great post jakej!

does the horn enhances extreme-stereoness (like headphones) rather than 3d image stereo?

JakeJ

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #3 on: 27 Mar 2017, 04:23 am »
No, headphones can, and often do, have an excellent 3D image but it's inside your head.  To have that in your living room you need a pair of speakers that can recreate what the mic captured.  It's there in the recording and even not so great recordings can convey a decent image.  The room is the white elephant in the equation.

Hmm...where have I heard that before?

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #4 on: 27 Mar 2017, 04:39 am »
No, headphones can, and often do, have an excellent 3D image but it's inside your head.  To have that in your living room you need a pair of speakers that can recreate what the mic captured.  It's there in the recording and even not so great recordings can convey a decent image.  The room is the white elephant in the equation.

Hmm...where have I heard that before?

ok Jake

what i want to know is for best 3d stereo, which is better :horn tweeter or dome tweeter?

thanks

weatherman1

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #5 on: 27 Mar 2017, 05:28 am »
Why not a ribbon tweeter speaker as a choice.  If you want a 3D sound stage with fast attach and crystal clear instrument placement that would be my choice.  If the designer gets the crossover to work with the ribbon and the larger mass slower moving cone speaker I have always enjoyed the wide sound field.  Most of these designs have EStatic like response in a smaller space and many give you rich smooth harmonic to a range of supertweeters @ 40k Hz

mresseguie

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #6 on: 27 Mar 2017, 08:05 am »
This is my .02 on horn based speaker systems.  You have to have a very large space because to get that center image you need to sit far enough away for them to work.  Part of the problem is the horn itself which has directivity as opposed to dispersion.  Horns can be very colored as well.  A box speaker with the typical dome tweeter has almost 180 degrees of sound output as the designer is trying to mimic what the microphone picks up, most of which are nearly omnidirectional.

The horn has anywhere from 40 to 60 degrees of dispersion so you need to sit quite a ways away to get the center fill in the sonic image.

Planars can get there if properly set up but the best ones are large just like the horns.

If you want an excellent 3D image and can't, or don't want to, live with big speakers you might consider a small to medium monitor with subwoofers to fill in the lower octaves.

Thank you, JakeJ. That helps explain some of what I was hearing or not hearing with the horn speakers here. In each instance, I was too close to the horn speakers to perceive the 3D sound. It was still very good music, but it was not 3D.

I've got two-way monitors at home with the same woofers as Salk Silks. They could certainly do with a couple subwoofers to fill out the bass - this was my original intention, but it hasn't yet happened. Once I determine which speakers I will purchase, these monitors will end up in my small office in a near-field setup.

Michael

mresseguie

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #7 on: 27 Mar 2017, 08:09 am »
Why not a ribbon tweeter speaker as a choice.  If you want a 3D sound stage with fast attach and crystal clear instrument placement that would be my choice.  If the designer gets the crossover to work with the ribbon and the larger mass slower moving cone speaker I have always enjoyed the wide sound field.  Most of these designs have EStatic like response in a smaller space and many give you rich smooth harmonic to a range of supertweeters @ 40k Hz

Hello, weatherman,

I've had mixed experiences with ribbon tweeters. More often than not I prefer dome tweeters. I've been to enough shows to be certain of my preference. This is my personal preference. I'm not declaring domes superior. Everyone has their own favorite tweeter. 

JLM

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #8 on: 27 Mar 2017, 10:28 am »
First, there is no perfect speaker.

Second, there is no perfect speaker.

Third, there is no perfect speaker.


Dipoles (O.B. and planars) that I've heard project a wall of sound.  Most lack deep bass and none provide the necessarily extremely rigid frame/baffle (you can't just set up a board and not expect it to destructively vibrate against the driver(s) or to hold the driver(s) rigidly in place (do not most look like spring boards?).  All require lots of space all around to properly function. 

Most horns are colored due to trying to over compress the air with very poorly reinforced panels.  Bass from horns requires a garage sized space with massively reinforced panels, like concrete).  Dynamics can be very life-like.  And yes, most are suited only for huge listening spaces.

Several types of box speakers, my favorite for various reasons is transmission lines.  Box speakers is what every professional uses to record, mix, and master recorded music, enough said.  The other "secret" ingredient of nearly all professionals is the use of active design that can provide horn like dynamics, flat/uncolored frequency response, and incomparably deep/full bass.
« Last Edit: 27 Mar 2017, 12:36 pm by JLM »

JakeJ

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #9 on: 27 Mar 2017, 12:01 pm »
ok Jake

what i want to know is for best 3d stereo, which is better :horn tweeter or dome tweeter?

thanks

Dome and, yes, ribbons can pull off the same imaging trick.

First, there is no perfect speaker.

Second, there is no perfect speaker.

Third, there is no perfect speaker.

Yup.

Quote
Dipoles (O.B. and planars) that I've heard project a wall of sound.  Most lack deep bass and none provide the necessarily extremely rigid frame/baffle (you can't just set up a board and not expect it to destructively vibrate against the driver(s) or to hold the driver(s) rigidly in place (do not most look like spring boards?).  All require lots of space all around to properly function. 

Most horns are colored due to trying to over compress the air with very poorly reinforced panels.  Bass from horns requires a garage sized space with massively reinforced panels 9like concrete).  Dynamics can be very life-like.  And yes, they are suited only for huge listening spaces.

Several types of box speakers, my favorite for various reasons is transmission lines.  Box speakers is what every professional uses to record, mix, and master recorded music, enough said.  The other "secret" ingredient of nearly all professionals is the use of active design that can provide horn like dynamics, flat/uncolored frequency response, and incomparably deep/full bass.

Agreed on all of this post.  Hey, now I remember where I heard about that elephant.  :wink:

JohnR

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #10 on: 27 Mar 2017, 12:39 pm »
Could I ask (Michael) for a specific example of what you mean by "horn speakers"?

(I'd have thought that if OB won't fit, neither will horn...)

mcgsxr

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #11 on: 27 Mar 2017, 12:50 pm »
I have owned and built a number of OB speakers.  I have also owned a lot of boxed speakers.  I have never owned a horn, but have heard Klipsch a few times (my only horn exposure).

I have not settled on a specific direction.  I find pleasure in either OB or boxed.  It is different, but can be pleasing in different ways.

OB (DIY or the Maggies I owned) produce a soundstage like few boxed speakers.  They require a lot of room behind them.

Small boxed monitors image like nothing else.  They require stands, and subs (for me) in most cases and may need powerful amps (some OB are inefficient too as were my Maggies).

I tend to run larger amps (I did run a 5wpc SEP EL84 for 10 years with some high efficiency OB's mind you) so the issue of power is generally off the table.

I love imaging at least as much as soundstage.  Lately I find myself chasing the dream of building my own.  I don't expect to exceed the designs of competent, expensive commercial units.  I simply enjoy the madness of playing with audio!


borism

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #13 on: 27 Mar 2017, 02:39 pm »
Michael, I own Duke's original Jazz Modules. They utilize a constant directivity waveguide = horn in a similar configuration as the speakers you link to.

Duke's recommendation is to set the speakers up at a 45 degree angle so that the main axis crosses in front of the listener. With this set-up there is a great three dimensional soundstage.

I wonder if this might work for the speakers you are interested in.

JohnR

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #14 on: 27 Mar 2017, 02:48 pm »
Ask and ye shall receive!

 :o

Thank you.

mresseguie

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #15 on: 27 Mar 2017, 02:49 pm »
Hi, Borism.

Thank you for the information. I plan to spend more time in the above speakers' showroom with my own gear, so I will try this idea.  :thumb:

Not pictured, but on the above website, are the Neo Classical 12 speakers. I spent two long sessions listening to these speakers at a new found audiophile pals' home. Given the fairly small living room setup, there was no 3D soundstage, but the music was wonderfully clear. My own two-way monitors sounded lacking right when I got home and replayed a couple songs. That lacking had disappeared by the following morning (thankfully!).


mresseguie

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #16 on: 27 Mar 2017, 02:59 pm »
There's a German speaker manufacturer that makes somewhat similar speakers. I've heard two of their models at audio shows in Taiwan. The manufacturer is Odeon, and the two models were: Tosca S/2 and No. 38/2.

The Odeon room was quite large. I'll guess 30 ft wide X 20 ft deep X 10 ft High. The Tosca easily filled the room with wonderful sound. The No. 38/2 overpowered the room to the point that I nearly ran out screaming. I do not recall which amps were used. The Tosca sounded good enough that I visited the room twice during both audio shows that I attended.

Tosca:
http://www.odeon-audio.com/modelle/tosca-s2/?lang=en

38/2:
http://www.odeon-audio.com/modelle/no-382/?lang=en


rollo

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #17 on: 27 Mar 2017, 03:52 pm »
   What are the dimensions of your listening room? First things first. Amps ? So you like the clarity of horns but miss sound stage of stand mounts. You desire a transparent fast speaker that has 3D stage so lets find one that fits in YOUR room properly.


charles
   

FullRangeMan

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Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #18 on: 27 Mar 2017, 04:13 pm »
My audiophile life was around the Carver Amazing due the holographic 3D soundstage, after it all boxes loudspeakers have a very poor 2D image due the lack from the other half of the sound are trapped inside the enclosure, after it OB is the only way to a similar sound nirvana.
This may explain why maggies have a successful life.

Randy

Re: Speaker Conundrum
« Reply #19 on: 27 Mar 2017, 04:17 pm »
Check out amphion 3LS. Similar to Duke's Jazz modules.