[Russell Dawkins]

Does this help? 

UL

Pretty well everything you've posted in this thread helps so yes, thanks.

[Rocket_Ronny]

At very low volume - say 45db, the LS50 is really quire week/poor.

Who would listen that low? That's as quiet as an empty room with nothing going on. Maybe you were guessing at a db number which I can understand one doing. If I listen it's going to be at least in the 80s otherwise I turn it off. Not into background noise.

Rocket_85db with 95db peaks_Ronny

[roscoe65]

UL,

Your [expensive] quest has mirrored my own.  There is a constant temptation to upgrade "knowing" there is a better combination if I look hard enough.  It is very tempting right now to spend the extra money for a pair of Alnico Monitors, but without listening to them I could not say that they would offer a $2,000 improvement over my Super 3/RS5 standmounts with subwoofers.  I am coming to a similar conclusion that the 3's with bass reinforcement are not the limiting factor in my system in my room.  My system is currently DB Audio Labs Tranquility - Fi 421a - Omega Super 3's (RS5).  I'm about to add an unnamed DIY subwoofer solution that is well-regarded in some circles.  My intention was to run the Omega's full range but adding a speaker-level high pass at 60 hz or so is tempting from the perspective of added dynamics.  It would be interesting to hear your perspective on the advantages and disadvantages (if any) of high passing the main speakers.

I know myself well enough to know I will want to upgrade in the future.  I feel this speaker solution will not likely be a limiting factor in my room (12' x 12' x 8'), my amp is of very high level, and while my NOS DAC is very good, I would probably get the most bang for the buck in upgrading my cabling, power cords, and DAC before my amp and speaker solution become the bottleneck.

If I had a spare $2000 I were allowed to spend to upgrade my system, it would probably be better spent on a secondhand Lampizator DAC than in upgrading up the Omega line, as tempting as that may be.

Absolutely.  I noticed that too.  At very low volume - say 45db, the LS50 is really quire week/poor.  So for LS50, I had to turn the volume up to what I call medium loud for them to come alive. 

As to playing the smaller single drivers loud, I think if you high pass around 100hz and up, you can really drive them to very high volumes.  I 'chat' with a couple of full range speaker designers & small scale manufacturers, both of whom said the best speaker they have ever heard or designed are small driver high passed, with a woofer at the bottom.  How's this different from traditional two ways?  The main drivers are still doing most of the full range.  I thought that was an interesting consistency between two experts in this full range stuff.  (No, they were not Louis of omega.)  i do intend to high pass my Omegas after all is said and done.

UL

[kbuzz3]

3. Then the RS5 came out and many thought they were a lot better than the Hemps.  Someone on the Omega thread just upgraded to the RS5 drivers and in a few days, gave the Hemp drivers away for free.
 

That would be me. I can vouch for the new RS5 driver and im not a fan boy or one to pump up new products.  I can say this driver has breathed new life into my super three narrows to the point that I am not interested in any upgrades and have placed my highly regarded LS3 5As on the shelf.

As an FYI I run them full range with a TBI sub eq'd by an early DSpeaker antimode.  Outstanding sound.   i also highly suggest skylan stands and Herbies as a winning combo with this model


Im always curious about a high pass cross over but im experimenting with my room now and what to ensure proper set up before adding anything..

[Ultralight]

I would and do....   That's the beauty of reality - so much range and variety in how we are each wired.

I am using a digital meter that is supposedly calibrated at the factory before shipping.  In the morning when nothing is happening, my room is about 36 db.  Currently with the heater blowing gently through the vent. 41 db.   I turned my speaker at 45db.  Listenable to me - as background while I work. I am currently listening at an average of 48db as I have had a very noisy day packed with friends, conversations, laughter, and a shared meal.   I just want things quite while I respond to emails and these posts. 

It depends on your speakers I think in how much information they convey at low volume.  When I chat with Louis of Omega, I specifically asked about how the RS5 drivers convey information at low volume.  He states that these excel in this function.

For me, it is not just about quantity, but also quality.  For some speakers, low quantity (decibels) correspond with low quality (resolution, uneven frequency response, linearity etc.)  For others, low quantity still provide high quality.  Of course, when I really want to fully SOAK into the music with my eyes closed and get lost, I sometimes do average 80db.  But that's about as high as I go. And I can't do that for long.  70-75db yes.

UL

Who would listen that low? That's as quiet as an empty room with nothing going on. Maybe you were guessing at a db number which I can understand one doing. If I listen it's going to be at least in the 80s otherwise I turn it off. Not into background noise.

Rocket_85db with 95db peaks_Ronny

[Ultralight]

Lol...yes they can be expensive. However, I have been incredibly blessed that if I were to sell everything I have, I would at least break even or better.  For example, I got my KEF LS50 factory sealed from an authorized dealer who had a sale.  I sold them and regained very dollar.  I have been blessed and audio circle has been helpful in helping me avoid landmines.

Omegas are the first pair that make me feel that I have 'arrived' though I'll be testing out dipoles among other things.  I may eventually try the Alnico again pending finances among other things.

I've chat with owners who own both who feel that RS5 has better resolution.  Personally without side by side comparison, I actually felt that the Alnicos had better resolution, and large dynamic range. However they are also more beamy in their dispersion - partially due to the larger cone.  I'm not sure how the whizzer impacts sound.

If you ever high pass 60hz, please let me know what you think.  I'm thinking of high pass at 80hz or so.  The problem is that I don't know how to do that with least impact on the transparency/resolution and on a budget.  Active?  Passive?   For low cost, I'm looking at the HLabs Fmods high pass filters. Some rave about how transparent they are - not sure if that's possible but the price is right.

May I ask what amp and dac you are using?

UL

UL,

Your [expensive] quest has mirrored my own.  There is a constant temptation to upgrade "knowing" there is a better combination if I look hard enough.  It is very tempting right now to spend the extra money for a pair of Alnico Monitors, but without listening to them I could not say that they would offer a $2,000 improvement over my Super 3/RS5 standmounts with subwoofers.  I am coming to a similar conclusion that the 3's with bass reinforcement are not the limiting factor in my system in my room.  My system is currently DB Audio Labs Tranquility - Fi 421a - Omega Super 3's (RS5).  I'm about to add an unnamed DIY subwoofer solution that is well-regarded in some circles.  My intention was to run the Omega's full range but adding a speaker-level high pass at 60 hz or so is tempting from the perspective of added dynamics.  It would be interesting to hear your perspective on the advantages and disadvantages (if any) of high passing the main speakers.

I know myself well enough to know I will want to upgrade in the future.  I feel this speaker solution will not likely be a limiting factor in my room (12' x 12' x 8'), my amp is of very high level, and while my NOS DAC is very good, I would probably get the most bang for the buck in upgrading my cabling, power cords, and DAC before my amp and speaker solution become the bottleneck.

If I had a spare $2000 I were allowed to spend to upgrade my system, it would probably be better spent on a secondhand Lampizator DAC than in upgrading up the Omega line, as tempting as that may be.

[Ultralight]

While I've not heard the LS3 5A, it is north of $2K which is saying a lot.

Does the DSpeaker Anti-Mode Dual Core (that's the model right?) have EQ and high/low pass capability? Curious though those functions won't work for your Omega as you are using you Dspeaker for the subs.   I'm also starting to learn about miniDsp & Dirac. It's all quite confusing to me now....

Thanks,
UL

That would be me. I can vouch for the new RS5 driver and im not a fan boy or one to pump up new products.  I can say this driver has breathed new life into my super three narrows to the point that I am not interested in any upgrades and have placed my highly regarded LS3 5As on the shelf.

As an FYI I run them full range with a TBI sub eq'd by an early DSpeaker antimode.  Outstanding sound.   i also highly suggest skylan stands and Herbies as a winning combo with this model


Im always curious about a high pass cross over but im experimenting with my room now and what to ensure proper set up before adding anything..

[timind]

Who would listen that low? That's as quiet as an empty room with nothing going on. Maybe you were guessing at a db number which I can understand one doing. If I listen it's going to be at least in the 80s otherwise I turn it off. Not into background noise.

Rocket_85db with 95db peaks_Ronny

Are you measuring this at the listening position? If so, you may regret this later in life. I refer you to this:https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/noisehearingconservation/.

Also, I suggest if you can't get good sound from your system in the 60-70 db range, somethings wrong there.

[Quiet Earth]

I am using a digital meter that is supposedly calibrated at the factory before shipping.

Can you share which make and model it is? Mine doesn't even begin to work until 60dB is present. (Realistic brand.)

[rodge827]

While I've not heard the LS3 5A, it is north of $2K which is saying a lot.

Does the DSpeaker Anti-Mode Dual Core (that's the model right?) have EQ and high/low pass capability? Curious though those functions won't work for your Omega as you are using you Dspeaker for the subs.   I'm also starting to learn about miniDsp & Dirac. It's all quite confusing to me now....

Thanks,
UL

The Dual Core can do high pass or low pass but it will only work one way. You will not be able to high pass your speakers and low pass the subs simultaneously. What ever you decide to do will be the output.
Yes there is a parametric eq on the Dual Core. There are also 4 profiles (ABCD) that are independent of each other. Basically you can tune your speaker set up 4 different ways.

To high pass your speaker and low pass your subs the Minidsp 2x4 is a good way to go.

Before going that route I would try try the capabilities of the Dual Core run full range. I use it that way with my 2.2 set up with great results.

Chris 

[Ultralight]

Since these threads may be used by potential music lovers to make speaker decisions, I want to document my own continued new observations.

Further thoughts on the Phantoms.  These are corrections to what I posted before I had further tests .   I thought about just changing my posts but figure it would be better to have a trail of how my understanding is evolving.  I am VERY fallible...and thus there is always the desire and room for continued growth.

Currently I no longer have the Phantoms but may have more opportunities in the future. BUT here is the corrective comments. 

1. I had my wife listen to the Phantoms vs the Omega/Subs after my reviews above.  Visually when the music was playing, she thought the Phantoms were the Omega/Subs and vice versa.   She liked the Phantoms more though she agreed that the resolution was better on the Omega/Subs.

Why?  Chatting with my wife, it is because she like the warmth.  The Omega does have a higher tilt in the trebles that gives the sense of more detail.  But most of all, I think the Phantom are correct in the phase of all the drivers.  The Omega/Sub has a bit of phase shift thing going on between the sub and Omega.

2. I believe that the phase shift thing gives the Omega/Sub a greater sense of depth and scale to me. But to my wife's ear, the Phantoms actually sounded larger.  I was flummoxed but it is what it is.  She has very good hearing by the way.

3. When I EQ both Omega/Sub and Phantom so that their curve matches closely, the difference in resolution shrinks though the edge still does go to the Omega/Sub.

4. My Omega/Sub rig currently is over 200 lbs and consist of six pieces.    The Phantom 52 lbs and in three pieces.  One of the three is a tiny little box.  For convenience, there is much to commend on the Phantom - just super convenient IF you can get it working easily right off the bat.  For absolute sound quality, the Omega/Sub by an edge.

UL

[OzarkTom]

My buddy Rex switcthed from the KEF LS50's to the Audience Clairaudient 1+1 Monitors and is much happier with them. There are no crossovers on the 1+1's. His LIO drives them very nicely.

[Ultralight]

I upgraded to bipole Omegas and they produce enough bass so that I have not used the sub in months.  They are now posted in the FS section. Mention this in case anyone is following and have interest - I think someone who read this thread was looking for one.

Thanks

UL

[FireGuy]

Thanks Ultralight for a great read and review.  I so enjoy reading "real-life" experiences and would welcome more on this forum.  Submitting audio reviews (IMO) is not an easy write.  There's a lot to express and articulate and you did a nice job.

There's not much (if any) points that I disagree with.  I'm going on two years now with Louis' RS5 driver (Super 5) and find their presentation organic sounding.  So well balanced and natural.

Your point regarding the price of the 3i's is also noted.  I've said before and will reiterate... it's so much easier in my opinion to design and offer a cost-no-object speaker than one that is moderately priced.  To overcome design compromises and generate a product that performs like Omega is remarkable.  There are other vendors too that have achieved this level and worth noting.

Enjoy the music!!

[bajaed]

Great stuff here, thanks for all the detailed info.

I was interested in hearing how well the Line Magnetic did in driving the Fritz monitors. If it can drive a fleshed out sound with good bass through lower (compared to the Omegas) sensitivity monitors that would be really impressive.

I've heard nothing but great things about LM.

[restrav]

what are some of the 12 other speakers that you auditioned? im asking just as a point of reference for personal benefit.

[poseidonsvoice]

what are some of the 12 other speakers that you auditioned? im asking just as a point of reference for personal benefit.

Read through the OP's first post on page 1.

Best,
Anand.

[restrav]

I did I saw LS50 and Phantoms and a few other brands mentioned (not specific model), i was just hoping for more detail.

[Ultralight]

I tried a number of smaller makers which I don't want to mention as I don't want to hurt them. it is not that they are not good - just that they did not work for me.  Of the larger companies, I tried among others, Totem, Golden Ear, Martin Logan, ....that's what I remember off the top of my head. Some dealers and friends loaned me speakers.

what are some of the 12 other speakers that you auditioned? im asking just as a point of reference for personal benefit.

[jk@home]

I did I saw LS50 and Phantoms and a few other brands mentioned (not specific model), i was just hoping for more detail.

And I didn't see his room size, listening distance, or what room treatments either, which makes a BIG difference in speaker selection. Heck it's taken me 2 years to get my KEF LS50s in the most preferred spot in my treated room, compromising between sound stage and tonal accuracy and detail.   And a 20 something watt SET tube amp on all of them? I know the web reviewer who recommended the LM amp for the KEFs, (I think he's using his as surround speakers now, so there commitment  ) But there are many differing opinions on what amp drives these speakers the best, tube, ss, or class D. To the OP...I would recommend you try Magnepans as I thought even my lowly MMGs did a great job on piano. But they are not low level speakers. Personally my LS50s do much better in that department, totally sufficient for me. If it was me, I would pick the speaker that fit best with the room and music I prefer, than choose the amp which drives it best. Nice write up though, sounds like you got where you wanted to go.