Bryston announcing new SST3 amps

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Armaegis

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #620 on: 8 May 2016, 10:33 pm »
]
HI

I do not think so as the input circuits on the amplifiers do not really apply to the low level gain stages on the preamps and headamps.

james



Thanks James.

I see the B135 received the Cube treatment. How about the B60r? (what does that "r" stand for anyways?)

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #621 on: 8 May 2016, 11:03 pm »
]
Thanks James.

I see the B135 received the Cube treatment. How about the B60r? (what does that "r" stand for anyways?)

Hi

No plans in changing the B60 - the R stands for 'remote'

James

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #622 on: 9 May 2016, 01:19 pm »




james


Rod_S

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #623 on: 9 May 2016, 02:22 pm »
Reading that mini review I see it mentions "The Bryston sound, which some consider clean has gained warmth". That's scary, that would seem to imply linearity has been sacrificed to achieve a desired "tone".

audio.bill

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #624 on: 9 May 2016, 02:33 pm »
Another interpretation would be that the sound of the older models was a bit lean and the additional warmth makes it much better balanced and more natural sounding. My point is that you really have to hear it for yourself to make such determinations based upon your individual preferences and expectations.

Marius

Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #625 on: 9 May 2016, 03:17 pm »
Another interpretation would be that the sound of the older models was a bit lean and the additional warmth makes it much better balanced and more natural sounding. My point is that you really have to hear it for yourself to make such determinations based upon your individual preferences and expectations.


Sure, you're right.
Still it makes one wonder. The rave reviews we read make us almost depressed with our mediocre Sst2's, or even sst's... (not!)


Might be fun to didge up some  reviews from 2009, or even read the 14bsst2 reviews posted not to long ago on this board. They might very well use the same terminology.


Cheers,
Marius

NekoAudio

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #626 on: 9 May 2016, 05:32 pm »
Reading that mini review I see it mentions "The Bryston sound, which some consider clean has gained warmth". That's scary, that would seem to imply linearity has been sacrificed to achieve a desired "tone".

A common concern with Bryston's gear has been that it sounds a little harsh. You'll find it all over the place if you search. Warranted or not. One could argue that it's letting the harshness found in many DACs, particularly older ones, come through, and it was never the amplifier in the first place.

But I definitely agree with the part of review that touts the amplifier's transparency: the 4B3 we just got in is very clean so don't worry about that, but it is also smooth and detailed without any added harshness. And I don't like harsh sounding gear. I am hearing more of what's upstream get through to the speakers.

Armaegis

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #627 on: 9 May 2016, 06:52 pm »
A common concern with Bryston's gear has been that it sounds a little harsh. You'll find it all over the place if you search. Warranted or not. One could argue that it's letting the harshness found in many DACs, particularly older ones, come through, and it was never the amplifier in the first place.

I highly suspect that a lot of the misconceptions about Bryston gear sounding "harsh" is because there are so many old amps floating around that are overdue for some servicing and recapping.

95Dyna

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #628 on: 10 May 2016, 02:43 am »
My 7B SST2's are now going on 7 years old.  Have listened long and hard to all genres from excellent to poor recordings and harsh is the last word in the dictionary I would use to describe  them.  In fact, the big  SST2's have been described by multiple reviewers as sounding more tube like than any other SS amp out there at the time.  If you are hearing harsh through these amps better check your upstream components or the recording itself. One A/C member who has a pair of 28's wrote in one day say he removed the top of the amp and was wondering where the tubes were hidden in the layout.  Tongue in cheek of course but no less descriptive of the sound.

Marius

Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #629 on: 10 May 2016, 06:07 am »
My 7B SST2's are now going on 7 years old.  Have listened long and hard to all genres from excellent to poor recordings and harsh is the last word in the dictionary I would use to describe  them.  In fact, the big  SST2's have been described by multiple reviewers as sounding more tube like than any other SS amp out there at the time.  If you are hearing harsh through these amps better check your upstream components or the recording itself. One A/C member who has a pair of 28's wrote in one day say he removed the top of the amp and was wondering where the tubes were hidden in the layout.  Tongue in cheek of course but no less descriptive of the sound.


Say +1 to that.
revealing might be the best adjective. If the output seems harsh, so might well be the input. do not blame the messenger. Not this one.



Marius

Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #630 on: 10 May 2016, 06:14 am »
Hi James,


taking your press release, the Cubed series are developed around these 3 changes:
 
- a patented super-linear, low noise input buffer
- a more robust RF and audio frequency noise filtering circuit before the power supplies to prevent unwanted anomalies on the power line from interfering even minutely with the audio signal.
- an elegantly redesigned milled aluminum front panel.
can you already share with us whether the first 2 can be upgraded into the current 28b's? is it a matter of switching the boards (fingers crossed), or will the amp require a complete rebuild.....

concerning 2: im searching for ways to tell/hear whether there is a need for this, could you elaborate a bit on the noise filtering, and how one can tell if 'unwanted anomalies are interfering" ?
the reason i ask is that i don't hear anything troubling my music. But that might just be me, being adjusted to the interfering ;-(( in other words, how to tell if my setup is being interfered or not.

Cheers,

Marius

   

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #631 on: 10 May 2016, 01:51 pm »
Marius,

I think noise contributes a "veil" to the music. For my system, I didn't know a veil was there, until it was reduced by power conditioning. Quite startling, really, as I always thought my noise floor was super-low. The only advice I can give is to hear it for yourself. Frankly, if your noise floor is already subterranean, you might not hear much of an improvement in resolution and stage depth, despite what some specs may suggest.

I'm quite content with my system as it stands right now.   :thumb:

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #632 on: 10 May 2016, 02:10 pm »
Hi James,


taking your press release, the Cubed series are developed around these 3 changes:
 
- a patented super-linear, low noise input buffer
- a more robust RF and audio frequency noise filtering circuit before the power supplies to prevent unwanted anomalies on the power line from interfering even minutely with the audio signal.
- an elegantly redesigned milled aluminum front panel.
can you already share with us whether the first 2 can be upgraded into the current 28b's? is it a matter of switching the boards (fingers crossed), or will the amp require a complete rebuild.....

concerning 2: im searching for ways to tell/hear whether there is a need for this, could you elaborate a bit on the noise filtering, and how one can tell if 'unwanted anomalies are interfering" ?
the reason i ask is that i don't hear anything troubling my music. But that might just be me, being adjusted to the interfering ;-(( in other words, how to tell if my setup is being interfered or not.

Cheers,

Marius

 


Hi Marius

I agree with Canadian above - I find its an insidious thing this noise - when it goes away you are aware that something was causing a slight veil to the sound and yet you would not have said your system had noise issues prior to the removal.

Also the world is starting to fill up with all kinds of RF interference and in fact one of the hurtles with the Cubed amplifiers was meeting all of these conditions in getting certification that we not only prevent any radiation from our products but in fact try to make them as immune as possible to picking up any stray radiation.

james

Marius

Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #633 on: 10 May 2016, 02:30 pm »
Thanks Canadian and James,


I feared as much.... Now how to test one of these power conditioners. That would at least require a customer facing dealer ;-( Ill try to find one, and also give Mafico another bump.


about the other question, about what James so rightly puts, making the amps as immune as possible? Can these 2 new designs (input buffer, and noise filtering circuit) be built into the 28b yet?


btw, which of these 2 takes care of the low power standby consumption? Or is that a 3d circuit not mentioned in your press release ;-)
btw2: could you explain a bit how the input buffer changes to prior designs, what it does? Or just point me to a previous answer, i obviously missed, sorry for that.


Thanks,
Marius



Hi Marius

I agree with Canadian above - I find its an insidious thing this noise - when it goes away you are aware that something was causing a slight veil to the sound and yet you would not have said your system had noise issues prior to the removal.

Also the world is starting to fill up with all kinds of RF interference and in fact one of the hurtles with the Cubed amplifiers was meeting all of these conditions in getting certification that we not only prevent any radiation from our products but in fact try to make them as immune as possible to picking up any stray radiation.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #634 on: 10 May 2016, 02:41 pm »
Thanks Canadian and James,


I feared as much.... Now how to test one of these power conditioners. That would at least require a customer facing dealer ;-( Ill try to find one, and also give Mafico another bump.


about the other question, about what James so rightly puts, making the amps as immune as possible? Can these 2 new designs (input buffer, and noise filtering circuit) be built into the 28b yet?


btw, which of these 2 takes care of the low power standby consumption? Or is that a 3d circuit not mentioned in your press release ;-)
btw2: could you explain a bit how the input buffer changes to prior designs, what it does? Or just point me to a previous answer, i obviously missed, sorry for that.


Thanks,
Marius

The engineering side I would have to ask  the designers.  The design was based on a patten so there should be some info available.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #635 on: 10 May 2016, 02:43 pm »
OK found this:


Bryston Cubed Differences

I can explain the differences and the thinking behind the 3 or Cubed Series amps, but it's a bit complex and long-winded, sorry:‎

A few years ago, we had a review in a Swedish magazine that pronounced the 14B SST2 to be 'perfect'. That was not based on 'he liked it'; it had nothing to do with auditory preference, it had to do with transparency. The reviewer had and still has a setup where he can literally 'bypass' an amplifier to drop it out of the signal path, (dummy speaker load, gain-reduction L-pad, leading to a second amplifier to the speakers). The 14B SST2 turned out to be impossible to detect in the signal path, on any signal they tried, from simple guitar music to full orchestra ffff, to an electronic metronome with instant rise time and no overshoot. And it was the first audio device in his history to do so.

That does not mean the amplifier is actually 'perfect', of course. It just means that it is not contributing, (or subtracting), anything the ear can detect, to or from the signal path in an otherwise exemplary system.

From that result and many others of our own, we concluded that static distortion measurements do not tell the whole story. It would seem that if static THD and IMD are low enough, 0.001% or -100dB, they cease to be relevant factors in the transparency of the device. ‎More important are time smear, deviations in frequency-response, dynamic distortions, noise within the device or from RF interference, etc.

Thus we did not introduce our new 'Salomie' input stage (which we received a patent on) simply to reduce static distortion. Our newest 'Cubed Series' amplifiers do have lower THD and IMD than the 'Squared Series' that preceded them, but not significantly so. They measure out at about 0.001% or a bit below, over almost the entire frequency band. However, and we consider this to be most important, they are quieter and more musically accurate in a number of ways; First, the 20-20K noise is reduced, but the new input stage has far better PSRR, or power-supply rejection ratio. This means hash on the power-supply is rejected, in this case by more than 140dB. The input stage also has much better CMRR, or common-mode rejection. That means it rejects noise coming in on the signal cable much more completely than before. These are dynamic issues that can show up in a real-world system completely apart from static THD and IMD.

In addition to the above, the new Cubed Series employs highly effective RF rejection in the power supplies, which traps and eliminates radio-frequency hash from either interfering with or emanating from the amplifier via the power cable or signal cables.

The audible improvements we realized with these approaches are rather subtle. They would have to be with amps that started out 'perfect' in at least one reviewer's description, but they show up from very low listening levels, almost whisper-quiet, where the silences are more inky-black than before. It's almost an unconscious realization. They amps also cope better with dirt and hash of all kinds on the power cord, from distorted 60Hz Voltage to RF. Thus the quiet middle-of-the-night listening is even more relaxing and emotionally accessible. The depth of the soundstage and the precision of instrument placement is closer to reality than ever before. ‎

Of course, that's what it really boils down to; recreating the original musical experience in your home. The 'you are there' feeling. It's what we have been pursuing from day one, and are still focused on. The Cubed Series is closer than ever. 


Marius

Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #636 on: 10 May 2016, 02:49 pm »
great write-up, thanks James.


My question stands: how to build this in my 28b's!
Hope to hear from engineering soon!


Marius


OK found this:


Bryston Cubed Differences

I can explain the differences and the thinking behind the 3 or Cubed Series amps, but it's a bit complex and long-winded, sorry:‎

A few years ago, we had a review in a Swedish magazine that pronounced the 14B SST2 to be 'perfect'. That was not based on 'he liked it'; it had nothing to do with auditory preference, it had to do with transparency. The reviewer had and still has a setup where he can literally 'bypass' an amplifier to drop it out of the signal path, (dummy speaker load, gain-reduction L-pad, leading to a second amplifier to the speakers). The 14B SST2 turned out to be impossible to detect in the signal path, on any signal they tried, from simple guitar music to full orchestra ffff, to an electronic metronome with instant rise time and no overshoot. And it was the first audio device in his history to do so.

That does not mean the amplifier is actually 'perfect', of course. It just means that it is not contributing, (or subtracting), anything the ear can detect, to or from the signal path in an otherwise exemplary system.

From that result and many others of our own, we concluded that static distortion measurements do not tell the whole story. It would seem that if static THD and IMD are low enough, 0.001% or -100dB, they cease to be relevant factors in the transparency of the device. ‎More important are time smear, deviations in frequency-response, dynamic distortions, noise within the device or from RF interference, etc.

Thus we did not introduce our new 'Salomie' input stage (which we received a patent on) simply to reduce static distortion. Our newest 'Cubed Series' amplifiers do have lower THD and IMD than the 'Squared Series' that preceded them, but not significantly so. They measure out at about 0.001% or a bit below, over almost the entire frequency band. However, and we consider this to be most important, they are quieter and more musically accurate in a number of ways; First, the 20-20K noise is reduced, but the new input stage has far better PSRR, or power-supply rejection ratio. This means hash on the power-supply is rejected, in this case by more than 140dB. The input stage also has much better CMRR, or common-mode rejection. That means it rejects noise coming in on the signal cable much more completely than before. These are dynamic issues that can show up in a real-world system completely apart from static THD and IMD.

In addition to the above, the new Cubed Series employs highly effective RF rejection in the power supplies, which traps and eliminates radio-frequency hash from either interfering with or emanating from the amplifier via the power cable or signal cables.

The audible improvements we realized with these approaches are rather subtle. They would have to be with amps that started out 'perfect' in at least one reviewer's description, but they show up from very low listening levels, almost whisper-quiet, where the silences are more inky-black than before. It's almost an unconscious realization. They amps also cope better with dirt and hash of all kinds on the power cord, from distorted 60Hz Voltage to RF. Thus the quiet middle-of-the-night listening is even more relaxing and emotionally accessible. The depth of the soundstage and the precision of instrument placement is closer to reality than ever before. ‎

Of course, that's what it really boils down to; recreating the original musical experience in your home. The 'you are there' feeling. It's what we have been pursuing from day one, and are still focused on. The Cubed Series is closer than ever. 


Rod_S

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #637 on: 10 May 2016, 11:10 pm »
Marius,

I think noise contributes a "veil" to the music. For my system, I didn't know a veil was there, until it was reduced by power conditioning. Quite startling, really, as I always thought my noise floor was super-low. The only advice I can give is to hear it for yourself. Frankly, if your noise floor is already subterranean, you might not hear much of an improvement in resolution and stage depth, despite what some specs may suggest.

I'm quite content with my system as it stands right now.   :thumb:


Hi Marius

I agree with Canadian above - I find its an insidious thing this noise - when it goes away you are aware that something was causing a slight veil to the sound and yet you would not have said your system had noise issues prior to the removal.

Also the world is starting to fill up with all kinds of RF interference and in fact one of the hurtles with the Cubed amplifiers was meeting all of these conditions in getting certification that we not only prevent any radiation from our products but in fact try to make them as immune as possible to picking up any stray radiation.

james

Both very informative posts thus if possible it's always good to get a component for in home demo to see if it makes any difference. Speaking more of SST2 vs Cubed here as that's what makes the most sense. Comparing say the cubed to another manufacture's amp becomes a lot more complicated determining why one sounds different, at least comparing a SST2 to a cube, based on what we've been told the differences are, if differences are in fact heard then it's likely there was noise you weren't aware that you had. As an alternative and perhaps a less expensive upgrade (depending on make and model of course) would then be to try a power conditioner and/or a quality power cord like a Shunyata which has noise filtering built in or Siltech Signature series which is also very effective at shielding noise as 2 power cord examples to see if you then get the same results. Its very likely you would.

audio.bill

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #638 on: 10 May 2016, 11:22 pm »
Rod - While you raise an interesting possibility, I believe that the new circuitry in the Cubed amps addresses an additional type of noise filtering than could be achieved via AC treatments alone. The new circuitry in the Cubed amps is in the amplifier's input circuit and reduces noise there which then gets passed on and amplified further by the output stage. So it reduces both noise in the AC line as well as potential RF noise in the amp's initial signal gain stage.

Rod_S

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Re: Bryston announcing new SST3 amps
« Reply #639 on: 10 May 2016, 11:45 pm »
Quite possible. I guess for the most part it's just pulling hairs in a way, look here, address there, etc. for something that's not even a problem in some systems. But the old motto applies for those moving from another manufacturer and possibly to some moving from older series Bryson's, better to have and not need then need and not have.