OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house

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1000a

OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« on: 28 Jun 2007, 03:36 pm »
Edit: 7-6-07 I have just begun to use the SS DAC sent strait to my subwoofer with the Tube DAC staying as before sent to the preamp/amp for my main speakers. 

The overall presentation quality increased easily by 30%+   and it was fantastic before (in addition to what one would expect here surprisingly the tone got even better, stage got deeper.........

Edit: 6-30-07 Conclusions  :thumb: Tube DAC only-stock w good ICs - new arrivers can save going thru the pages of dribble.  (below assume recordings of good quality)

PRAT/Tone/Musicality/Stage/air/detail/imaging are all excellent IMO

They all fit together well none stick out, very organic and whole smooth slightly warmth-slight.
Nice body to images, not thin. Bass is very good textured tight with great impact- definitely feel this part with this device.  Dynamics and speed are very good.  Like it with all types of music thus far does classical well, easily separates, defines well with body and tone and good depth.  Very engaging for me takes me into the music easily, I can move around and focus on separate parts and quickly be sucked right back into the whole presentation.  Strangely still being very aware of the indivual parts but completely absorbed by the whole tune.  It’s a wonderful thing, probably my favorite.  So excellent detail, without loosing body, nor soul.

Definitely a foot taper-hell a body mover, makes the orginal Birdland sound kind of operating room clinical and grainy.  I never moved this much listening while sitting down, I love the thing and really have no desire to hear the Altmann or Promi tube DAC.  But that’s just me I am not one to enjoy comparing these things, some do some don’t.  Not right or wrong.

A tiny bit bright initially – very tiny but still there, using stock tubes on board, a ton of options, there- something I am really attracted to.  various tubes/various dampers/ even a 6N1P option for moving away from 6922s, if one likes.  Now I still have not run the SS DAC to the sub, so there is more fun to be had.  There is a tubed linestage as part of the devise.  So $$ bang is really way off the scale.  From a sound purist point I was worried about having all this in 1 box, not now notta.

So my 2 cent if yours is a recent (1-2 yrs old) well regarded DAC Paradisia / Stello / Lavry / Altmann / Benchmark DAC 60 w mods and all the ones I did not mention and you feel your not getting what you want by all means check this thing out!  Do not hesitate, it should fair quite well with the others, may even blow your mind.  I really can’t imagine anyone not loving this thing IMS and room.  On the other hand if your basically happy I’d work on room treatments that will give you a major return on your effort especially DIY.   With the quality level of today’s DAC crop a lateral move seems a fairly low return- but that’s just my opinion and I am not a DAC compare guy.  I have listened to the top Levinson stuff at our High End dealer here and I don’t feel I am missing squat, for what that’s worth. 

If your DAC is 2 generations old, your brains should fall out and I would say definitely update.  Assuming we are all referring to 700.-1,500. pieces.  4-8,000. stuff I got no clue but this piece makes me think just how much better can it get and do I even care not really, no!  I love this piece, a great choice for me. Onward to possible AC regeneration and isolating the Stock SB from the DAC.

I am glad I got it instead of the Altmann (because I strongly wanted tubes in my DAC, and would have always been curious) or Promi tube DAC (a way off) even not hearing them - no problem- I do not flip stuff, if it thrills me, I like to get back to working on the whole of the parts instead of staying in this one area.   I am also thrilled with the option of running the SS DAC to my sub, that’s more than cool, should pay max benefits.  So no matter how good the Altmann or another may be - this thing has incredible chops and tone for a fantastic price, I could not resists its charms.  The bass now is already stellar.  Listening to Kodo, with very large multiple drums is sublime, yeah scary good now I see the guys swinging sticks moving about, visceral is an understatement.  Even the pieces that I had not listened too much before sucked me in, I was in awe- I need not look any further.  So I hope this is helpful, that’s as clear as I can speak of it.  Some of you guys size this stuff up so eloquently and quickly I am amazed.

Forgot midrange yes full rich w texture and detail, no complaint, midrange is not a negotiable part of a presentation for me.  :D


beginning of first post:

:D  Just received this unit, plan to do a review here, for those who may be interested. 

Feel free to pester me if you do not see any info in a week.  Many of the items I have added/changed that I have been very pleased with never have gotten a separate post.
Although I had every intention to do so, the next tweek or change detoured such.

My reference point will be the Birdland Odeon Lite DAC (circa 2000) an upsampler.
Very well rec at the time, reviews of such are easy to find.  I am not at all disappointed with it and feel I have my system pretty dialed in. 

But you know..... :scratch:, well I wonder.  I have considered the Altmann NOS, Promitheus Tube NOS DAC, Paradisia NOS tubed DAC, and the Lite DAC 60 with 1st level mods also.  These I have not personally heard just the commentary on such seemed to be ones that would suit my fancy.  So studying the reviews of the Birdland would be your best bet to get a window on my opinion of the Monarchy.  Having that context should help alot.

Anyway this is a oversampler in the traditional sense using dual PCM 1704's and tube out, it also has a SS DAC sans the tubes for running strait to a sub.  Lastly a tubed linestage.  I will try and coverage ea. config as my system allows.  I am skeptical but hopefull, Bound for Sound loves this DAC, Lynn Olson and a few other quite serious people.   but different ears, different systems and then of course synergy all take their toll in evaluation. :scratch:
« Last Edit: 6 Jul 2007, 02:06 pm by 1000a »

lonewolfny42

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Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #1 on: 28 Jun 2007, 03:42 pm »
Hope it works out for you....looks good in the photo's. 8)


mcullinan

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #2 on: 28 Jun 2007, 03:48 pm »
Id like to know... if its really good give it 3 thumbs up... it looks cool. I have a Lavry DA-10 but always looking :)
Mike

ted_b

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Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jun 2007, 04:18 pm »
Great, thanks!  I am MOST interested in hearing your comments about the tube DAC stage, but it'll be nice info to hear what you say about tube vs ss.  The line stage is only average, most reviews state, but who cares. CCPoon is the real deal.  Two things would make this DAC a category killer (it it isn't already)...24/96 and I2S.

flintstone

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jun 2007, 04:38 pm »
I have the M24.....Amperex 6dj8's or 7308's take the DAC up a good notch over the stock tubes.

My setup: Kinergetics transport>>Monarchy M24 DAC>>Audioprism Mantissa tubed preamp>>Rogue Audio tubed monos>>Apogee Duetta Signatures (or) Apogee Minigrands.


I have not tried the tubed preamp section in mine...something I guess I should do one day.


Dave

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #5 on: 28 Jun 2007, 08:32 pm »
OK she is cranked up and rolling for a few hours now, so we will see. sound's very good and smooth from the next room.   

I bought it cause of the Tube DAC thats my primary interest in the piece.
so I will focus on that first. to keep it simple.

I will say the reviews of the unit the M24, cover a unit that uses PCM63 and CC Poon changed the design slightly when going to the PCM 1704s, I believe there is an Op amp in the DAC now as before there was not, this bothered me a little.  But after talking to him on the phone and learning about a SS DAC I could pump strait to the sub I was pretty intrigued with the added possinblities of the NM rather than the M version still available.  the M strait from him is 980.  the NM is 1080.  both still available.

I poked enough questions about the sound of the tube DAC in the NM vs the M and came away feeling his take was why you asking stuppid question s this much better.  Seriously he feels the tube DAC is just as good as the tube DAC in the M. 

Before I spent the last 3 months on this forum I would have just let her rip but Noooooooooooooo  I had to study the hell out of the board with a magnifing glass for an hour :lol:

any way I see 2 PCM 1704s on the tube DAC side and 2 AD811ANs which I believe he told me are his choice of op amps.  after talking to him, I fiqure he de man. when asking questions I got the feeling he was telling me are you nuts of course this is better than the M version.  so his reputation had me buy this verses the M.

on the SS side I see 1 PCM1704E   and 1 CS8414

my unit has 2-JAN Sylvania on the Tube DAC and 2-JAN Phillips on the Linestage side, so they are staying put at least to next week, ordering a few different ones like soon.
these ofcourse are not bad at all, but the beuaty of this piece is options as the Paradisia has but its a real tube DAC.

   

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #6 on: 28 Jun 2007, 08:34 pm »
I have the M24.....Amperex 6dj8's or 7308's take the DAC up a good notch over the stock tubes.

My setup: Kinergetics transport>>Monarchy M24 DAC>>Audioprism Mantissa tubed preamp>>Rogue Audio tubed monos>>Apogee Duetta Signatures (or) Apogee Minigrands.


I have not tried the tubed preamp section in mine...something I guess I should do one day.

Dave

Hi Dave

  :D what preceded your M24 DAC? any comments on differences between older one and your M24?


1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #7 on: 28 Jun 2007, 08:57 pm »
Great, thanks!  I am MOST interested in hearing your comments about the tube DAC stage, but it'll be nice info to hear what you say about tube vs ss.  The line stage is only average, most reviews state, but who cares. CCPoon is the real deal.  Two things would make this DAC a category killer (it it isn't already)...24/96 and I2S.

I believe this one is 24/96 cause of the PCM1704, the PCM63 is a 20 bit, not that from what I 've read would alone make it better but his implimination and design skills might.

he was informative and fun to talk to, super responsive with emails and such, oh yeah the board in this thing is thick makes my Jolida board seem very thin which it is in most opinions.  its easily 3/16" + very ridgid, the insides are impressive, clean, its a heavy piece.  front plate is 3/8"

I do not know if it tops the Altmann but it is a good looking piece I usally could care less but its nice to have that.  reminds me of my 20+ lb CD960, in fact its really built stronger than that piece - this thing when you pick it up "says I got serious asperations" the chassis is quite thick I do not know if thats any diff than the lite DAC 50 chassy.
but its seems clear to me CC Poon is the complete designer of this piece the Lite DAC stuff is mostly a box he uses.     

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #8 on: 29 Jun 2007, 02:51 am »

New with 2-4 hours on it, the NM24 (2007) so completely out does the Birdland (2000) in every area it is insane, so for me its a ridiculous upgrade no subltle changes here massive across the board.  Problem is My DAC the Odeon, was replaced by one called an Ag, and then they offered a clock upgrade for that, next they did a big modular DAC that had open ways of being inifinitly upgradeable for new clocks yada yada yada.  So their present best would be properly compared to the Bel Canto 3.  So really its a grossly unfair comparison mine being 2-3 gens old.

As a tube DAC it still easyily kicks my SS Birdland's ass in bass. so I would not refer to it as bass shy or inarticulate there- good recordings as always.  Now I have 5, 17"x54" bass traps and at the end of Holst: The Planets (Telarc) on Mars there is this fantastic cresendo with incredible bass - quite well definied with my Birdland, with the NM 24 the differnce was almost scarey still extremely well definied but my sofa literally felt like the SOB was gonna lift of the ground and take off like a jet.   :o :drool: its was awesome.

really nothing is missing with this DAC, got to maybe 3 ref songs got lost in Jorma K's Blue Country Heart.  fantastic if you like his stuff the detail and imediacy delv by the DAC was shocking compared to the SS Birdland.  Then I went back to my ref stuff and new in 2-3 songs it was over but of course had to go for all 10-15+, just in case I was deluded.

DAC is fast, PRAT are super, I looked like that cat in Set Man's logo but with an added sideways boggie going full tilt, Birdland rocked me but this thing is a whole different animal very real very engaging. really nothing is missing here the Bird also seemed grainy in comparison to this baby.  and its just getting warmed up no 200 hrs break in just enjoy. I would call it very smooth and musical. the high end even brand new is really nice.  Only possible complaint is its a tiny touch brite, but Its been on maybe 6-7 hrs.

So thats it for now, the bass has more than proved its metal.  So I am probably going to run the SS DAC strait to the sub starting like now (although I will hate to have to get out the Db meter and all that crap) and let the tube DAC run the main speakers on up.  I get to run em both at the same time now thats what I call very cool and progressive on CC Poon's part.  that seems quite out of the box.

Now the Birland has a DIY cord on it that easily beat the old stock cord, the DIY job openned up that DAC considerabily.  So for comparison I am just using a 3x14 SJT Volex on the NM24 and will have to make myself a new one.  Will the rewards be as big, probably -----  so that will probably just show up how far removed the Birdland s talents are from this or most contempory DACs of good design.  Read insanely far behind, despite its over the top comparisons to 2-3,000. DAC s in its day.  I have worked extremely hard the last 3 months to get lots of detail from my system and have done so.  and I have 1st reflect points treated and so on.  so this DAC is in an enviroment that should definitly show its prowess.  SO stock tubes stock cord(18ga.) I used a 14ga. Volex, no foot changes spec boards pods spikes or Halos- so I can only begin to imagine whats coming.

Now the problem here is many of you guys have DACs that are 1-2 years old and I have no way of say comparing a BenchmarK, Larvy, Paradisia, or Altmann.   I can say tonight at least I can't imagine anyone selling this thing if it sounds like it does IMR IMS.  I could easily just forget Nicks tube DAC and the Altmann and start looking at DAC threads in 2+ or more years.  So I hope this helps you guys help to sort thru your research better.

Talked to CC Poon again on the phone this NM24 has a formal rev do out in August, another nice side note is there are chips I can change on the board so the DAC can accept 6N1P tubes if I chose.   So more flexibility is really nice.  he really wants me to sit tight and let the JAN tubes have their day in the sun for 30 days.. he says he gets guys changing chips on the board before the unit is even broken in and they never even get a chance to hear his design stretch its legs.  so I am gonna try to relax and not start tube swapping for at least 30 days and let me and her get well aquainted first.

but Halos, footers, vibrapods, spikes, boards, are all fair game as well as a good PC cord.
more as she gets off the training wheels. Oh its playing at 44k and being feed by a stock SB3 for now. stereovox HDVX.

Jon L

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #9 on: 29 Jun 2007, 04:22 am »
Did you compare the tube output vs. SS output?

Did Mr. Poon mention if his SS output is just an op-amp output stage or discrete output stage? 

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #10 on: 29 Jun 2007, 07:18 am »
Hi Jon

easy enough I will check the SS dac sound vs the tube dac for the whole deal before I go off to SS dac to subwoofer town.

opamp stage or discrete on the SS dac I do not know, he would tell you if you call him.
or if there is something I can see on the board thats a giveawey let me know what to look for.

I would guess the better of the 2 if he could pull it off at that price, descrete output stage would be better I am guessing?

Big Red Machine

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #11 on: 29 Jun 2007, 12:21 pm »
This unit can be a standalone preamp also can't it?  And you can route the DAC output back thru itself into the preamp section as well?

flintstone

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #12 on: 29 Jun 2007, 02:18 pm »
I have the M24.....Amperex 6dj8's or 7308's take the DAC up a good notch over the stock tubes.

My setup: Kinergetics transport>>Monarchy M24 DAC>>Audioprism Mantissa tubed preamp>>Rogue Audio tubed monos>>Apogee Duetta Signatures (or) Apogee Minigrands.


I have not tried the tubed preamp section in mine...something I guess I should do one day.

Dave

Hi Dave

  :D what preceded your M24 DAC? any comments on differences between older one and your M24?





I was using an upgraded Counterpoint DA-10A DAC...I liked it a lot. The tubes that come with the Monarchy are fairly high quality, the DAC sounds very good out of the box.


You said: "Only possible complaint is its a tiny touch brite"......I detected that same "tiny touch"

The DAC uses the same type tubes as my preamp, so...I had a few extra tubes I could  try. A pair of Amperex 6dj8's (Holland)... I use as a backup tube in my preamp was installed. That "tiny touch brite"......all gone!


Note: I spoke to someone else regarding tube rolling in the DAC...the tubes he suggested just happened to be another pair I had on hand...I tried them, they didn't do it for me at all (to be honest, I've never been impressed with these tubes anyway).


I look forward to your thoughts as you get to know your Monarchy a little better....feed it lots of music!


Dave

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #13 on: 29 Jun 2007, 02:49 pm »
This unit can be a standalone preamp also can't it?  And you can route the DAC output back thru itself into the preamp section as well?

yes definitly :D

Big Red Machine

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #14 on: 29 Jun 2007, 03:07 pm »
Just missed one on Agon.  Considered this unit earlier in the spring but had no feedback on its performance.

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #15 on: 29 Jun 2007, 03:18 pm »
Quote
The DAC uses the same type tubes as my preamp, so...I had a few extra tubes I could  try. A pair of Amperex 6dj8's (Holland)... I use as a backup tube in my preamp was installed. That "tiny touch brite"......all gone!


Note: I spoke to someone else regarding tube rolling in the DAC...the tubes he suggested just happened to be another pair I had on hand...I tried them, they didn't do it for me at all (to be honest, I've never been impressed with these tubes anyway).


I look forward to your thoughts as you get to know your Monarchy a little better....feed it lots of music!


Thanks Dave

She seems a very fine DAC indeed, I am reading the same coments about different tubes in this unit one of the reviewers preferred some Ei tubes over some Siemens NOS CC Poon had sent him.  maybe the system senergy thing?  i will definitly put those exact Amperex on my list, but I do want to check out the cheapies first and try various Halos- Herbies has got like 3 choices now for small tubes in his higher line dampers.

also the option of a chip switch from Monarchy will give me a choice of the 6n1ps, do not know if the M24 can use the chip I know the architecture of the piece is changed slightly.

my amps integrated so the linestage for me is redundant, I did read 2 reviews where they were shocked at the abilities of the stage, give her a shot for gigles, let us know.
I was not crazy about a DAC with the added bonus devices but have no compliants.

Lynn Oslon thinks it is a very serious pre if used with a TVC or similar device- http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/monarchy_m24.htm
« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2007, 03:45 pm by 1000a »

1000a

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #16 on: 29 Jun 2007, 03:45 pm »
Just missed one on Agon.  Considered this unit earlier in the spring but had no feedback on its performance.

i thought I saw an M24 used myself for about 875. recently.  i believe Monarchy has a 15% restock fee if returned?  its hard to find much comentary from individual users 2 guys over on AA love it, it was more of a gut thing for me but I studied the crap out of the mag reviews online 2-3 4 times.  and the backgrounds of the users especially in the non comercial rags were impressive to me, so a dice roll.

really it came to Altmann more expensive lots of fans but a kinda closed loop for me, wanted some tuning options my last DAC was SS.  so the other choice for me was Promi Tube DAC NOS w trannies, but its aways off still in future.  i am not into flipping gear i may try the Promi in a yr or so, would be an easy resell on AC big fan club Nick has.

i think we are in an era where many of the well recieved DACs are all pretty serious performers-contenders  ideally I would love to have an Altmann, a Promi Tube DAC and the M24 each for about 3 months and then flip 2 of them.  not my thing and expensive.

you would thinjk the m24 would have way more freedback from the personal users consicering the passion of 2-3 reviews still using the piece. :scratch:

but finding alot of feeb back on his early DACs is also guite hard great mag revs a few serious fans scattered around but not enough to give one a strong feeling say as the Paradisia, so maybe his stuff just stays below the radar for most people - I barely knew of it in the past.  all the heat was on Bel Canto and 3-4 others in the 700-1500 range.

edit

I do know many people who have serious gear read the forums but rarely ever post, I just bought a used TVC from a guy who has a Thor pre-amp, loves the TVC reordering one w C Core trannies.
I as others get something or tweak something sounds great make lots of notes and mean to post but as time passes I am on to the next thing.
« Last Edit: 29 Jun 2007, 05:56 pm by 1000a »

flintstone

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #17 on: 29 Jun 2007, 08:10 pm »
I hang out sometimes at the Apogee speaker users forum. One of our members has a ladyfriend who plays violin in a world class orchestra. He is also a reviewer for one of the well known online audio sites....can't recall which one though at the moment.

While complaining in a thread at that forum, that I thought most violin recordings were poor-very poor, ie..... either to strident, or somewhat fuzzy with lack of focus on the true beauty of the instrument....I reasoned that it must be a very hard instrument to capture, as a recording.

It was at this time that he mentioned his ladyfriend, and how many times he had gone to listen to her live.....he suggested a couple of violin recordings I should pick up....and I did.


After listening to a couple of these recordings, which were as good as he had said they were....I came to the conclusion that this guy understood exactly what I wanted.....violin recordings with nearly perfect tone.


Around a year or so latter, he mentioned to someone in a thread that he had just ordered a Monarchy M24...his latter posts confirmed what I'd hoped.....a toe tapping musical component, and with beautiful tone.


For me, components in my system, must also have nearly perfect tone....the Monarchy is one of those components. The component must also be musical....I have not been an audiophile for around 15 years,  (I'm well out of "that" audio stage)....the Monarchy is very musical.


I don't know much about the other DAC's you have mentioned....I've read good things, mostly here at this forum site though. Always good to listen for yourself, and confirm that the other persons idea of "near perfect sound"... conforms with yours...sounds like you understand that.


Dave














ted_b

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Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #18 on: 29 Jun 2007, 08:31 pm »
Dave,
Not to hijack, but mind sharing those good violin recordings?  It's always good to hear great musical tone, and  I'm sure 1000a would love to hear it through his NM24!   :thumb:

flintstone

Re: OK Monarchy NM24 DAC in the house
« Reply #19 on: 29 Jun 2007, 09:16 pm »
Dave,
Not to hijack, but mind sharing those good violin recordings?  It's always good to hear great musical tone, and  I'm sure 1000a would love to hear it through his NM24!   :thumb:


Sure....start here: these are the first two I picked up

http://www.amazon.com/Britten-Walton-Violin-Concertos-Vengerov/dp/B00008XRSW/ref=sr_1_1/103-7338922-2796657?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1183150695&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005NPK5/ref=wl_it_dp/103-7338922-2796657?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1DOUEFF72TT7R&colid=2KWJS6EBB37OL


Dave