I'm a skinny 79-year-old, but I share some of your audio history. I actually have the GR LS-9s and continue to be amazed by them. They replaced a very expensive full-range ESL. Although they had great sound, they just did not have the dynamic range that the 9's have and I couldn't live with that.
You use a bass equalizer? Which one? I have played with the parametric EQ on the A370 servos for hours but I'm not q-u-i-t-e there yet.
Yes, with my Super-7s' bass channels I use a pair of single-channel Dukane 31-band grafic eq
Maybe thats where your last bit of transparency is taken, with the extra cables and e.q.
Rocket_Ronny
Probably not; they're in the bass channels only.
Danny-
Are you having the same thoughts about the line arrays?
My mistake for assuming you knew which ones I was addressing. The open baffle ones with Neo-10's, Neo-3's and twin servo driven 3-12" subs.
I once thought I'd never sell my pair, but with the impending move coming up and the realization that I have way more demo speakers around here than I can ever listen to, I then have to tell myself not to get so emotionally attached to any one pair of speakers. So I would consider letting them go to a good home if the price was right.
And I'm telling you this is like the dog waiting for a piece of steak to fall from the table. When Danny is selling personal speakers, it's a good time to buy. I got a pair his wife really liked and I'm happy I did. His personal speakers have every last tweak in them and fantastic sounds even better!I already have too many speakers (maybe I should sell all of them), but the Super 7's are something special. Combine the best of the spekers that I have (Super V's and LS 6'es) into 1 setup, then take it up another notch. :thumb: Would be tempted if I could figure out how to pull it off.
Jeffrey,
If you are having to adjust plus and minus 12db each way in the lower end then you have some real room related issues. YUP; it's almost square at 21' w. by 19' deep.
I'd really consider a pair of our sealed 12" servo subs in the back of the room to try and even out your room issues. It should help a lot.
I don't get anywhere near that much low frequency variation in my room. But I am using a combination of diffusers and large tube traps.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/Silverpair3.jpg)
I once thought I'd never sell my pair, but with the impending move coming up and the realization that I have way more demo speakers around here than I can ever listen to, I then have to tell myself not to get so emotionally attached to any one pair of speakers. So I would consider letting them go to a good home if the price was right.
What are the big, blue, tubed poweramps?
Danny--
How about a few pics of your crossovers, pls?
I think I may have slightly diverted the purpose of this thread with my inquiry to Danny about the line arrays so let me see if I can get it back on track. I am an owner of the Super-7’s. Great; we've found four now. :-)
I bought the used pair that was for sale a little over a year ago mentioned in the thread prior to this one (Super-7s how are they doing?). My pair are a darker shade of silver than Jeffrey’s. I bought them purely on reputation and some input from other Audiocircle members that heard them at RMAF and could compare them to speakers I am familiar with. I have never bought any piece of audio equipment in this manner before but fortunately for me I am very happy I did so – I remember wishing I had pursued purchasing a pair when they were initially sold after the RMAF show. Well I got my second opportunity and jumped all over it.
It’s a little embarrassing to say I still have not determined their optimum position yet but that’s mainly because when I sit down to listen I prefer to listen than spend time fooling around with positioning. The sound I am getting exceeds any set-up I have had prior to the Super-7’s. I have the speakers sitting on unspiked Sound Anchor bases I had made for previous speakers to allow me to slide them around to experiment with positioning when I get the itch to do so. I have a 15W x 24L room with cathedral ceiling and carpet. The speakers are about 9 feet from the front wall and about 3.5 feet from the side walls. Currently I am using a near field set-up (8 foot equilateral triangle). I have GIK soffit bass traps in the corners behind the speakers and GIK Monster Traps and PI Audio Diffusers on the wall between the soffit traps. Thanks to Danny for the PI Audio diffuser recommendation – they work very well with these speakers. I have tried both Monster Traps and diffusers at the first reflection points on the side walls with no audible impact at all. I was fortunate enough to acquire a used Spatial Audio Black Hole a year and a half ago which does an admirable job of cleaning up the bass. If anyone out there has one they are willing to sell I would be interested in acquiring a second one.
I have a Marantz Reference SA7 CD player, SC11S1 preamp, and SM11S1 stereo amplifier all resting in a HRS SXR rack with M3X isolation bases. Power supply is provided by a RGPC 240V substation, 400S PLC, and power cords. Servo amps are plugged into wall receptacles on a circuit separate from the substation. I have Zenwave D4 interconnect cables and BEL speaker cables.
So here is what I’d like to ask the Super-7 owners out there. How much toe-in do you have on your speakers? Mine are toed so that I can barely see any of the inner sides of the inner panels. I guess the tweeters intersect just a few feet behind my head.
Where are your speakers with respect to your listening room size and listening position? My room is 21' wide and 19' deep. I sit maybe 4' from the back wall; the rear of the speakers' panels are about 5' from the front wall. The inside edges of the speakers are about 9' apart and there's probably 5' to the outside of each system. I sit about 10' away from the line of the speakers. Because of the 8-1/2'-wide screen between the speakers, my soundstage is, generally, wider than deeper but with no hole in the middle.
Have you experimented with SS and tube electronics on your speakers and which do you prefer? I've driven mine with both plus a hybrid. Coincident Frankensteins (note 1) had enough power for me but sounded edgy, probably the result of their cheap Solen 'propylene main-powersupply caps and gobs of magnetic wire and other parts in them. WAVAC 805-based SETs (2) were more powerful and NOT edgy or unattractive in any way, but they sounded simply boring. Nelson Pass's First Watt J2 (3) amps sounded excellent. I had (with Pass's advice and approval) wired the 2 channels of each amp into parallel, resulting in a pair of monoamps with 25 Watts into 8 and 50 into 4, per chassis. They were very detailed, smooth, and attractive sounding.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/J2%20amps/2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/J2%20amps/2014Oct27_L-chinplace2_1200w_zps5cd9128c.jpg.html)
My current amp, purchased when I was using the 87dB-(in)sensitive Audio Physic Avanti IIIs, is a conrad-johnson ET250S, a hybrid stereo amp rated at 250WPC into 8 and 400WPC into 4. I love the overall sounds of this amp so much I left it in the system when I reinstalled the S7s this January.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2105Nov09_amp%20on%20pad%20close_1800w_zpsfttewxsj.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2105Nov09_amp%20on%20pad%20close_1800w_zpsfttewxsj.jpg.html)
With the three lower-power amps, I used no line-level hi-pass filter(4), but with more than 400WPC available (short-term), I now use a pair of caps (0.01uF each of SoniCap Platinum and Jupiter Copper Foil Paper'n'Wax) creating a high-pass filter at c. 110Hz. These caps are barely visible as part of the input jacks, added volume pot, jumpercables, and blue-and-orange wiring at the rear of the amp. Here's a better pic.
(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/jeffreybehr/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2016Mar03_input%20filters%20amp%20jacks_1500w_zpsewccqvqh.jpg) (http://s89.photobucket.com/user/jeffreybehr/media/C-j%20equipment/conrad-johnson%20ET250S%20poweramp/2016Mar03_input%20filters%20amp%20jacks_1500w_zpsewccqvqh.jpg.html)
Jeffrey – where do you have your Rythmik F15HP 15"-driver subwoofers set up in your room? They're just forward of the back wall, left and right of the listening position. They're set for true subwoofing, that being bottom octave and below, with the LP filter set at 25Hz. See
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-761.html , post 22823 and
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-762.html
...post 22833.
I reread your post but didn't see your preamp mentioned. What are you using? Do you prefer the CJ ET250s over the First Watt J2s?
Wow - nice set-up and what a great sized room for your system. I feel a little outclassed by you guys in that I have not done anything to the crossovers, mainly because I haven't ever attempted this kind of project. Both you and Jeffrey have skills I would like to acquire. I'm going to attempt to put Danny on the spot here - do your pair of Super-7s have the original passive crossovers or have you changed them since they were built?
My pair has what I fell like are the best parts for the job.
I own the pair that was first shown at RMAF. They have the old style wave guides.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=128519)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=138287)
Yeah, I am not fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound.Maybe two wrongs make a right in this case? :dunno:
They sounded kind of smeared and muddy.Most like that though. That's sounds tube like. :P
Most like that though. That's sounds tube like. :P
Not my tubes.Not my tubes either. If your tube amps are sounding muddy it's time to expand the your tube amp experience and find one that doesn't.
Sorry Danny, you are wrong on this one. I doubt that you listened to the new wax foils....you probably listened to the ones that have film inside. These use paper and wax. They completely destroy the sound of the Erse coils you use in all your speakers. Exactly the opposite of what you said. The Erse coils sound muddy, muddy and more muddy. The Wax foils sound glorious. I trust my ears. Maybe Mike or Jeff will try them and report back....folks, trust your ears....not someone elses. Again, these are the new WAX and PAPER coil foils that have only been available for a couple of years. I have never tried the older film ones. Why would I use a coil that sounds worse? No way would I ever go back to the Erse 16 gauge super cheap coils. They don't pass half the info.
Bye the way, Parts Express (the Jantzen dealer) does not carry many values and none of the 12 gauge that you would want for the midrange. You must custom order them from Parts Express....depending on when they place their orders could take as long as 2 months. You can get right away a 16 gauge to try on the tweeter......but the midrange one is the glory one......makes more difference.
These coils cost considerably more than the 16 gauge Erse coils (especially the 12 gauge ones)....they are not cheap.
Before I tried these coils I tried the Jensen 12 gauge paper wax foil coils that I ordered directly from Denmark for about $160 delivered (2X .56mh). These were really muddy as well (probably the super thick foil).......that is why I ordered the Jantzens to see if they were any good.......indeed they are. The Jensens coils are used by Vapor Audio so I thought they must be good. Trust no ones ears but your own.
Because Erse states on their website that Jantzen uses recycled copper does not make it so.....especially for these newer ones. They have been claiming this for years.
Here is what Danny is quoting: http://www.erseaudio.com/Purity-Guarantee
You can quote me here: "The Jantzen wax foil coils sound way more transparent than the 16 gauge Erse wire wound coils". This has been tested by the most sensitive thing known to man.....the human ear.
I have never listened to the Erse, Alpha Core, Mundorf, Dueland foil coils or any other coils. Only to those mentioned. There may be better coils than the Jantzen wax foils.
The battle of the golden ears! I have products from both gentlemen, a pair of Danny's superb OB/Dipole subs (which I will be removing from their old W-frames and putting in the far superior H-frames I just got from Jay---Captainhemo), and Ric's seriously-modified Audible Illusions Modulus 2 pre-amp. Both gents have very high standards in sound quality, highly-developed listening skills, and world-class systems. What's a boy to make of their disagreement?!
I still have yet to hear the upper drivers, but this design at least is right up my alley. The OB Subs with planar mids and highs---can't beat it!
Another Super 7 owner checking in here. Guess we are up to 5 now :thumb:
...
How much do the Super 7's cost and are they available?
George
How much do the Super-7s cost and are they available?
George
Well, George, looks as if Danny's pair is available; go get 'em!
King...'s comment is correct--the original recommended retail was $20K. The one pair I saw for sale last year was purchased for $8K by someone on our thread, and there's only one other pair ever built. (That is, there were only 6 pairs made according to Danny, and we've found 5.)
Additional advantages not frequently mentioned are their high sensitivity at 97dB and their lowish impedance (4 Ohms) and quite benign phase behavior. I drove mine quite successfully with 8-Watt SETs last year.
I actually have a question on the Super 7's with low power amps. I'm running a First Watt Burning Amp 3, which is 25 watts on tap. Do I even need to put a cap on the input of my amp to high pass at 100hz? With only 25 watts, shouldn't the 4 panels be able to run wide open without that cap in the way?
Does putting the cap there mess with the phase at all?
Danny what is the cut off with the .o47uF cap?
To calculate the f-3dB point for the single pole high pass filter, the equation is:
f-3dB = 1/(2*Pi*R*C) where,
R = input resistance of the preamp,
C = series capacitor value.
As an example, a preamp with a 10000 ohm input resistance and the 0.047uf cap will be 3db down at 339Hz.
The calculator gave me 32 hz with the .047uF, would it be better to use say a .01uF which would give about 150 hz with my amp?
Hey guys, drop in your values and get a quick answer: http://www.pronine.ca/capimp.htm
The calculator gave me 32 hz with the .047uF, would it be better to use say a .01uF which would give about 150 hz with my amp?
I must be doing something way wrong here. When I input my power amp's 100 kOhm input impedance and say I want an F3 of 80Hz the calculator tells me i need a 5000000002uF cap.Mike,
Granted, physics is not my strong suit but that doesn't make any sense :scratch:
Mike
Mike,
You need a 0.02uf cap for 80Hz with a 100K ohm input.
I've been running my Super 7's without the line level cap for the past couple of days, and I have to say I like it. Clearer and more transparent. I guess no cap is better than a good cap....
Question on the 56uF Erse in the crossover - can I replace that with Sonicap Gen 1's? I have a 2 pairs of 10uF and a pair of 15uF of the Sonicap Gen 1's that iI could use. That gives me 35uF per side. Could I need to order another 20uF cap to get to 55uF? Or how close to the original 56uF value do you have to get?
Just put in Jantzen Wax foils in my Wedgies last Monday and the difference is quite dramatic. Totally agree with Tysons listening impressions. Don't know if burn-in applies to coils but itThanks for the report Keith, Tyson, Rick. I will be giving this a try.
is hard to believe they could much get better. Funny, didn't think the Wedgies could get much better with the stock Erse coils.
I used 14 gauge for the LGK's and 16 gauge on the tweeter with inputs connected to the inner foil.
Might just have to see what the LGK 1.0 sounds like with a wax foil.
Parts Express has 14 gauge 1.2 mh Jantzen wax coils in stock. You can unwind them for smaller values. Inductance meters are <$40 if you don't have one.
http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-12mh-14-awg-copper-foil-wax-coil-crossover-coil--255-565
"The 99.9998% pure copper foil used in Jantzen Audio's Cross Coil Series inductors is the basis for the Wax Coil. Insulated with 60 micron special-quality paper, the foil is precision-wound tightly and then impregnated with Jantzen Audio's proprietary polymolecular paraffin wax"
Above is the ad copy for the Jantzen wax coil. So, you are getting the exact same paper dielectric and the exact wax and exactly making them the same and they will sound as good or better? Jantzen claim 4 9s on the regular coils but 5 9s on these wax ones. You have scientific proof otherwise?
The Jantzen's sound fantastic and are available now. How will your "new custom Erse" ones sound? You won't know till you A/B with Jantzen. Please buy some Jantzens to have as reference so when you make your custom ones you will really know something. I want the best sound....not just something "made in America". I personally hope your new fangled custom "super copper" ones will sound better than Jantzen.....hey, I always want something better. Go Man Go.
Nothing you just quoted or said has anything to do with how the Jantzen wax coils sound. We are now 4 for 4 people testing and finding the Jantzen's to sound way, way, way better than the Erse's. I trust my ears, I trust the ears of others. I do not trust Erse's tests or comments (they want to sell their products....are they objective?....do they listen?.....hardly). When will you listen to the Jantzen wax coils so you can see/hear what they really do? Never? You just keep going on and on about copper purity. Open minds explore and experiment and are willing to be wrong. Closed minds defend. I want even better coils. I hope you can bring us some....meanwhile my Jantzen wax coils bring me lots of enjoyment.
Just because "everything" affects the "sound" doesn't mean "everything" is audible. And let's also keep in mind that what one person prefers is not what the next person may prefer. There is no "best", only different.
I'm with Danny on this one - if we can get a better sounding coil from Erse for whatever reason, then we all benefit. In the meantime I'm glad I have the Jantzens in place.
I agree too , but, it'd be cool for Danny to try the Jantzens so he's got something to compare the new ones to when they are done. If you guys all feel the Jantzens are better than the Erse Xo's, not much point comparing the new ones to the Xo's...
jay
Miquel,
Way to go!!!! Man that has to sound good. Congrats....I know it has been a long journey.
Now, here are the critical remarks......please duck if you only want praising. Thanks for taking my advise and having all three woofers face forward.....and also physically aligning the voice coils......however, because you have an H-frame right next to and in front of the main baffle and right next to the tweeters.....well, that is a big no no. You have highs bouncing off the outside walls of the H-frame and messing up imaging and coherency. If you used a U-frame then most of the problem would disappear and you could put matching colored felt on the rest of that side of the U-frame. I know you want this to look good....and it does....but a simple partial solution would be to put a half inch thick piece of felt all the way along the outside of the tweeters up to the level of the top of the H-frame. This felt would kill the response of the highs to the outside and therefore they would not hit the H-frame baffle as much. But this is a bandaid that will just give you so much. You could also try moving the woofers back and using the phase control on the servo amps.
None the less.....I am sure it sounds amazing. But you know me....always trying to make it better. I hope you get the Jantzen wax foil coils (12 gauge is a must for the midranges) for it.....now that will blow your mind (no exaggeration here).
Danny, a U shaped frame would have less sticking out the front.....that is obvious. This is, of course, aligning the voice coils. It's the reflective surface in the front of the main speakers that is the main problem...less so to the rear. I personally would not even have a U-frame (the less stuff near the main speaker the better).....you get plenty of low bass with the three 12s on an open baffle. Heck, I had plenty of bass with two on an open baffle. Depends on the room and how loud you listen and to what kind of music you listen to as to how much woof you need. I bet if Miguel put his three woofs on an open baffle it would sound way, way better......not in pure low bass range or power.....but he does not listen to 110 db power rock.
You really need to try felting....It makes more difference than you could ever imagine. You only know something when you listen. Measurements only take you so far. I have felted every speaker that I have ever made (the whole baffle right up to the drivers) and it ALWAYS makes an improvement.....even without other things in the way.
Miguel,
Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks.
Speaking of felt......look on page 2 of this thread. Mike Eastman.....with my coaxing added felt to his waveguided Neo three on his Serenity 7 speakers with good results. The waveguide on the NX-Oticas has a hard edge as it meets the baffle. This will lead to massive diffraction (exaggeration slightly). If you put a very small ring of felt on the baffle right around the waveguide so the felt sticks very slightly over that edge then the sound will be GREATLY!!!! improved. This I have found true over and over again. Never fails. Try it and know something.....or resist and know nothing.
Danny,[eating popcorn emoticon]
You say results.....I believe you are talking measurements. I am talking listening. Folks, believe your ears....not words from me or anyone. Believe your ears......experiment and find out for yourself. That is what Jay did when he turned around the woofer......he heard better sound. Danny says it would not make a difference. Jay believes his ears. Do you believe your ears? Do you want better sound? If yes, then you need to experiment and find out for yourself. There is no other way. No one on this earth has all the answers. Listen to everyone.....believe no one. Believe your ears! I have no doubt that felting around the waveguide on the NX-Oticas would improve the sound. Try it and find out for yourself.....do not believe me.....do not believe anyone....trust your own ears!
Unless someone asks me a direct question this is my last statement about felting, time aligning, running woofers in the same direction and open baffles. You all know what I believe. I have poured you a drink......some will scorn....some will fight....some will taste.....some will sip.....some will spit out.....some will devour....some will celebrate....some will praise. Be that as it may.....blessings to all.
If those are the prototypes that I heard at Danny's last year, and they certainly look like it, you've never heard anything like them- and Mr. Gonzalez has an amazing set of speakers. Not the Wilson's, not the TAD's, not the Magico's, -nothing that I've ever heard were that good.
Could something make them better? Yeah, sure. But other than a few of the guys that had actually been in that living room, everyone else is just guessing.
Danny,
You say results.....I believe you are talking measurements. I am talking listening. Folks, believe your ears....not words from me or anyone. Believe your ears......experiment and find out for yourself. That is what Jay did when he turned around the woofer......he heard better sound. Danny says it would not make a difference. Jay believes his ears. Do you believe your ears? Do you want better sound? If yes, then you need to experiment and find out for yourself. There is no other way. No one on this earth has all the answers. Listen to everyone.....believe no one. Believe your ears! I have no doubt that felting around the waveguide on the NX-Oticas would improve the sound. Try it and find out for yourself.....do not believe me.....do not believe anyone....trust your own ears! In life, it is trust your heart.....in audio....it is trust your ears.
Unless someone asks me a direct question this is my last statement about felting, time aligning, running woofers in the same direction and open baffles. You all know what I believe. I have poured you a drink......some will scorn....some will fight....some will taste.....some will sip.....some will spit out.....some will devour....some will celebrate....some will praise. Be that as it may.....blessings to all.
Dear All,
I just wanted if allowed to post a picture of the fantastic line arrays from GR Research with the servo drives
The combination of open baffle, line array, extreme short decay creates really an amazing combination it is really something...
I would like to thanks Danny and all the persons who are involved in this circle. With platforms such as Audiocircle it is possible to speed up the process of finding your way into audio (not only in the high end sector of it).
Thanks Miguel
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145329)
I think the folks around here will trust the designer that not only measures but listens as well. You still offer only speculation. If you want to give it a shot I'll sell you a NX-Otica kit and you can see if your speculation holds true over what I have measured and heard. Then you and try it for yourself.
And again there is a lot you are not taking into account. I covered most of it already and have tried to explain it to you but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
Miguel,
Welcome and you lucky dog :green:. My grandson and I got to listen to those speakers at Danny's and I have to agree with Scott and Rich (HAL). Those are seriously the best I have ever heard. I would tell you to enjoy listening but with those it would be impossible not to.
Mike
Miguel,
Your speakers are a one of a kind pinnacle of high end audio. You should give them their own thread complete with pictures. And we'll help you with tips on room placement and tweaks.
Suddenly, I have panel envy :P Congrats Miguel!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145408)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145408)
The combination of open baffle + line array + extremely shorts decays can be very addictive...
:D. Sorry. Late to the party, Can you buy these speakers or kits only ? I have a set of Super V's and the bass is the reason the neighbour knocks on my door after a session. Ha. I don't answer. :D
I just ordered a set of 12ga Alpha Cores for the midrange and 16ga Jantzens on the tweeters to try. I did it this way to eliminate the need for a custom order. Parts were purchased here in the USA.
Suddenly, I have panel envy :P Congrats Miguel!
Tyson,
I would say that is still better than having the other envy that starts with a "P" :lol:
I have the same feeling with YOUR speakers, I finally get my custom Super V's from Ruben which are beautiful and sound wonderful. Then I find out he is building you Super 7's. and all I can think about is 'why didn't I think of that :duh:
:D. Danny ,, what's the no dicker sticker on those bad boys ? :D
Claritycap has a new improved version of the MR called CMR. Suppose to have a mo betta way of connecting the wire to the cap. Available now from Parts Connexion. I have not seen anyone who has posted on the "improved?" sound. About the same pricing as the "old" one. Now red instead of blue.....will they sound more red?......Enid....please help us!?!
http://www.claritycap.co.uk/products/cmr.php
I can’t believe I’m posting this but I am hoping someone can help. I have had my Super-7s on Sound Anchor bases with HRS Nimbus feet between the bases and speakers since I acquired them 2 years ago. I want to try the bases supplied with the speakers. I was sent 8 ¼” diameter Hex Bolts 1 ¾” long to secure the bases to the speakers. These bolts will not thread in - they are too large.
I bought 12/24 and 10/24 2” long Machine Screws today. Neither will thread in; the 10/24 engages maybe a couple of threads and then stops dead in its tracks. The local fastener stores do not have Hex Bolts below ¼” diameter.
I asked Danny about the correct size bolt – he informed me that he received the incorrect size bolts with his pair of Super-7s but does not remember the correct size.
So, for you Super-7 owners who are using the Super-7 bases, anyone else have this issue and if so, do you remember the size bolt you used?
I still have a pair of Super-7's.
"But not the Super 7's. They are just flat out better than other speakers"
Except for maybe my LS-9s, Tyson, especially now that I have my new crossovers (Jensen inductors) sitting on the floor ready to be hooked up. Pictures to follow soon.
So what about the Super 7 is difficult to duplicate? It uses Neo 10s, Neo 3s, and GR OB subs. Are all the drivers standard available versions? So it would be the waveguide, crossover, and enclosure dimensions that matter. I know Danny can't offer it as a kit, so waveguide dimension and construction would be the most difficult part.I would have liked to see the S7 offered as a kit with a simple cardboard cutout matching the shape of the waveguide. You could use that to hand sand a waveguide onto a one inch insert to be glued into a cutout on the front baffle. Or even easier, cut out sections and laminte them. Time consuming, but not rocket science.
THROWBACK,
Hmmm... Maybe yours should be the LS-X9 since it is your experimental speaker. Kinda like the X aircraft from NASA. :)
HAL,
I better let Danny answer that one (LS-9 or LS-X?). All I know is that they are terrific speakers.
The Super-7's are also terrific speakers. Are they better than the 9/X? Perhaps, but I don't know how anyone could tell since no one listens to speakers, only audio systems in vastly differing environments. I have made my system sound different (mostly better) by changing: speaker wires (now using Marigo); solder (ditto, Marigo); amplifier output and driver tubes; speaker crossover components; speaker placement (mains and subs); sub PEQ settings; phono cartridge loading, VTA, AZ. And I ain't through yet! Maybe new amps? Clearly there are impedance-matching problems with my Atma OTLs. Would solid state amps be better? Maybe biamping with an electronic crossover? Hmmm? Oh yeah, and what about . . . ?
Looking for any help other Super-7 owners can give me. First Watt J2s and F6s are appearing for sale in various websites. I have been contemplating trying either of these but have never had the opportunity to hear them. I currently have a Marantz SC11S1 and Dodd tube preamp. For whatever reason the Dodd is not compatible with my Marantz SM11S1 amp (long story) so I have thought about getting something that would be an improvement over the Marantz amp and hopefully allow me to use the Dodd with it.
In the long run I intend to audition the LIO DHT, ARC REF6, and Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamps to replace my current preamp. I had considered a FW F7 at one time but I am concerned with its low impedance spec which indicates it may not work well with tube preamps. I realize I may be putting the cart before the horse here but its due to the cost of the FW amps being much much lower than the preamps I am considering. Also hope that I may be satisfied using the Dodd with the FW amps.
Any advice you guys can offer will be appreciated.
So what about the Super 7 is difficult to duplicate? It uses Neo 10s, Neo 3s, and GR OB subs. Are all the drivers standard available versions? So it would be the waveguide, crossover, and enclosure dimensions that matter. I know Danny can't offer it as a kit, so waveguide dimension and construction would be the most difficult part.
Is Serenity Acoustics still in business? I thought I read before that the kit issue was because SA owned the design. If they are no longer an entity, what's the harm?
LOL, kind of a half breed, yeah the SL9's were in ported boxes, not open but he LSX used a different version of the woofers (IIRC), I think Danny had a small run of them mdade for the LSX pair buklt for Mocking bird. I like the LS(X :)
for yo uguys wanting super 7's, don't overlook the NX line. Danny has commentd that he feels they meet even better the Super 7 in some regards . Yeah, the 7's will be faster in the mids withe Neo 10's but likely don't have the midrange punch of the NQ's nor the deep waveguide of the NX line that allows the Neo 3 to play down deep. A draw back is you need separate subs but if you've got the space.....
I'm not playing down the S7's at all, I know they are amazing , just saying don't under estimate the NX, talk to Danny about them
jay
The tweeters were a custom version made just for Serenity Acoustics. But our new GR Neo 3 tweeters are made just like them and would work as drop in replacements. And I have a lot of them in stock now.
If you guys can find someone to replicate the cabinets then I do have everything else that you'd need.
I'm glad to know you are enjoying them. :thumb:
Indeed I am. I think the 'magic' is really a result of the mids and tweeter being made of the same material, having the same shape, and being physically aligned on the baffle. With something like opera voice or even solo violin, this makes a HUGE difference and puts the Super 7 in a different league than cone/dome speakers, or any other speaker that doesn't have that level absolute seamlessness between mids/highs.
I went to see 4 Opera this year including the last one ,the Girls of the Golden West .Nothing like a live orchestra and Opera.Here I am ?now i’m really want to hear the super 7 ,come on Jay ,make it happen.
Thanks
Lap
I still have a pair that I could let go of.Sigh......
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Sigh......
They sure sounded incredible at RMAF. Combined the strengths of the Super V (Openess, Wide soundstage, Easy sense of power, OB Bass, etc etc etc) along with the airy detail of the LS6/9, and then a pure midrange on top of that.
Fantastic Speakers. Everything I heard played on them was top notch.
Still haven't hit the Lottery, but someday.... :green:
Danny,
What are the baffles on the Super 7's made of, MDF? Do they need yo be CNC cut or just carefully constructed? thanks
Rg
Is the wave guide a secret proprietary curve, or are there drawings or equations available?
I have the original prototype test baffle if someone wants to borrow it and have it programmed.Hmmmm. Let me make some inquiries and give you a call. I'm seriously interested in taking you up on that. Give me a couple of days.
And I still have one fully assembled pair in my listening room.
OK, I've got a shop with a CNC that can do the job. Next question is demand.I don't think I will ever be able to accomodate a separate speaker and servo subs in H frame(lack of spousal approval) so I won't be able house the OB line source should it become available, this is the closest I am likely to get. I would be building these as an alternate mid/tweet section for my current H frames, count me in as interested .
Obviously, price is a determining issue, and that's related to quantity. But I'm interested in simple interest...
Anyone interested if it turns out to be cheap???
Either PM me or post here.
If it isn't too expensive, I would be interested. Would it just be the top front baffle with the waveguide? Since building this is at least a year out, I don't want to store much more than the front baffle.Yep, I'm just looking at the front baffle at this time.
Since captainhemo is building 12" H-Frame flat packs, can do like I did and just reuse the servo drivers and amps setup and leave the Super-V's alone. Can always be rebuilt later as needed.There's that whole "storage" issue. I already have enough Stereo/Speaker C**p laying around - don't need any more. I have several sets of speakers that are not in use stashed in various locations. Besides, I think that the Super 7's are a strong candidate for a "forever" speaker. If I can swing the right amplification, I'm quite certain that they will outperform the current room they are in, and likely any room I am likely to have in the future.
Just a thought.
I am thinking more about being able to sell the Super-V's to a new owner when the Super-7's are done and working. I used the servo sub parts until I was sure and then rebuilt the Super-V's that Dan bought, then put new parts in the new sub cabinets.Makes sense :thumb:
What size room would they require? Do they need room to breath like the SuperV?
Is the only pair in Tx located with Danny?
They will work okay in a small room if you can get them three feet or more out into the room. We made Super-V's work well at the shows in a room that was only 13' by 19'. I wouldn't put them in a room much smaller.
And I do have a completed pair of the Super-7's.
How much for that completed pair, or is that something you don't want to advertise?
Besides, I think that the Super 7's are a strong candidate for a "forever" speaker.
For you guys interested in building a pair of Super-7's. I have everything you need minus the cabinets. Parts cost for everything is in the $3,500 range, but that includes it all.
If you're comparing them to the Super V's, the Super 7's beat them in areas like soundstage depth, scale, imaging, microdynamics, tone, transparency, refinement, and just sound 'bigger'. The integration of mids/highs is also much better.
Well I guess that makes my Super Vs hammered dog shit......(http://www2.b3ta.com/dailymailheadlineordogshit/correct.jpg)
(http://www2.b3ta.com/dailymailheadlineordogshit/correct.jpg)
But very good sounding dog shit... with great bass.
Well I guess that makes my Super Vs hammered dog shit......
I'll take 10k for this pair plus shipping and I do have shipping creates.Maybe if I sell a car? Anybody interested in a 300Z TT? :green: j/k
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Well it's not like I've ever played in the upper echelon, but I have owned several speakers in the 10-15K price range and my hammered dog shit is their equal or better.Hey Shakey, I saw that photo and just had to post it.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
Gosh I miss Gary.
Sorry, but the local company with CNC manufacturing capability isn't really interested in such a small run. Thought I might have a cost efficient supplier... :(
Those looking for a Super 7 DIY option will have to look elsewhere.
Since it sounds like there are no plans for the Super 7, it it basically the same as the Super V plans except for
the baffle? We have CNC machines at work and now have a 20x60 paint booth with a guy that can put
incredible painted finishes on MDF.
The Super V and the Super 7 are not the same size. The Super 7 is much larger so all of the panels have to be different that the Super V.
What are you thinking Danny?
Danny,
Do all of these Wave Guides need to be different depending on the speaker it is used in? Or has your Wave Guide design evolved over the years to a standard Wave Guide.
Steve
Seeing Steve's picture and vaguely going off of memory on what the back side of the baffle tweeter waveguide looks like got me wondering something for folks brainstorming on how to most efficiently get the needed machining done.
I just found a web page of an audio dealer, Care Audio selling Super 7s both new and demos. Here is a link http://care-audio.com/loudspeakersprd
Also from earlier in this thread (#49). It looks pretty plain from the back.
My Guess is they have one demo for $10,000.00 and can make you one for for $20,000.00. Very good pricing considering how good they are.
Just need enough people to be onboard.... we'll do it at that point.
I have to take the prototype baffle from Danny , make a 3D model and 2D drawoing then go from there. There is some other stuff I'm working on withthiese drivers rifht now and I want to see the results first
I just found a web page of an audio dealer, Care Audio selling Super 7s both new and demos. Here is a link http://care-audio.com/loudspeakersprd
Hey Jay, you have my attention, can you share any info on the "other stuff"? Interested in the Super 7 baffle as well.
Happy New Year,
Ed
Just a bit of an update for those interested.
I've done up a model with some mods to the original baffle and a dxf. They have been submitted for programming and cutting . Hopefully will have a prototype done fairly soon that I can get down to Danny for testing
jay
:D parts to build out,,,, 3500 or so. Panels ?? Might have to jump. :D
Always been interested in this trans-d ....... :D
Are you just going to make a top piece to sit on the dual sub box ? That would work ,,,, :D
If you are going to build the S7's, do yourself a favor and go straight for the Jantzen wax/paper/copper foil inductors. I also prefer the ClarityCap MRs bypassed with Jupiter copper foils. Both caps are great, but the real magic is the Jupiters, IMO. If you can afford it, just get Jupiters as your full sized caps and forgo the CarityCaps (or Sonicaps) completely. Jupiters are so good, they do not need to be bypassed, if you use them as your main caps.
Yeah, I like those Copper foil Jupiter caps too. But it will be $2,440 for the four caps needed. :(
:D you guys sure know your stuff. 4 caps cost 2400 bucks .... ? Say what ?
Danny. You have the parts to build these ,, right ? Just checking. If those 4 caps add
2400 bucks plus the 3500 plus the wood , Hummmmm :D
Just for my own curiosity, if this Super-7 rebirth comes to fruition, can you listen to these speakers in the mid/near-field? I have been enjoying my set up more currently, having moved to sitting about 5-6 feet away from my speakers.
Would sitting that close with the Super-7 not work correctly?
:D. Ok, give her hell Jay. Get a few slip-on baffles made to sit on the sub boxes and I'm in.
Sorry Danny, I'm a little slow on the take. 4 caps are an extra 3 grand my $ ? Don't think I'll be
doing that ..... :D
I'll take 10k for this pair plus shipping and I do have shipping creates.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
If you are going to build the S7's, do yourself a favor and go straight for the Jantzen wax/paper/copper foil inductors. I also prefer the ClarityCap MRs bypassed with Jupiter copper foils. Both caps are great, but the real magic is the Jupiters, IMO. If you can afford it, just get Jupiters as your full sized caps and forgo the CarityCaps (or Sonicaps) completely. Jupiters are so good, they do not need to be bypassed, if you use them as your main caps.
All air core coils (especially good ones) need to be oriented so the signal goes into the inside of the coil and comes out the outside.....big difference.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156997)
I think you've got it backwards, if I put my meter on the output of my amp it's D/C.
All electronic equipment operates off D/C, it takes the A/C and converts it to D/C. How else do you explain battery powered amps they don't take D/C and covert it to A/C that would require massive transformer like the one used in off grid inverters. But hey do a quick Google and check it out.
We're talking AC signal here, not DC. There's no "going in one side and coming out the other."
Greg
Hal, your right, how does a battery powered amp work? Does it convert to D/C to A/C at some point? So A/C amps take the A/C convert it to D/C for the circuits than converts the D/C back to A/C for the output signal?
Thanks Hal for the info, cleared up my misunderstanding on that :duh: Thank you studiotech for bring it up so that could happen. :thumb:
There are things in audio that can be heard to be different but the audible difference is not measureable. All wires sound different....and all wires sound different depending on which direction you orient them......this cannot be measured but can be heard......same with "coil directionality". In fact, there are way more things that cannot be measured that make a difference than those that can be measured. However, in order to know this, you have to have an open inquisitive mind and be willing to do very tweaky controlled listening experiments (not blind A/Bs or double blind.....these tests are for those that don't believe in differences)
Patience, they are coming :lol:
I was able to shorten it a bit, it's right around the 30" mark at this point.
Am also working on some side wings that will match up withthe subs
jay
Well, I finally did it - got the Jupiter Copper caps for the 10uf and 15uf positions in my crossover. Over $2k for the 4 caps needed, holy crap that's expensive. Feels weird to have caps that cost more than my amp.
Oh, speaking of amps, I finally got my tube amp up and running (and quieted down) so I can use it in my system again. VTA ST70 using the octal input boards and coupling caps upgraded to Jupiter copper caps too. Very, very nice synergy with the Super 7s. For my tastes, this is easily the best my system has ever sounded.
If only those caps were cheaper.
Yeah, cheaper would be cool.
At least in a two way network, there isn't a large value high pass bundle leading into the midrange leg, can't imagine the cost if a guy were trying to include that :(
Yeah, they look huge, I know how big the Clarity MR's are, they (the Jupiter's) remind me of the Dueland PIO Coppers
jay.
Jupiter 10uf and 15uf copper/paper/wax caps came in today. Just got them soldered in. Listening to my first few tracks right now. DAYUM! These are a huge, huge, huge step up over the ClarityCap MRs (bypassed with .22 Jupiters) that I was using before.
It's like switching from speaker wire made out of aluminum to speaker wire made out of very good copper. Which, in a way, is exactly what I did. At this point, as far as I can tell, there's not any aluminum foil in any cap anywhere in the signal path. Except maybe in my Auralic Vega, but I'm fine with that, for now - hahaha!
Anyway, a bit more info on the sound change - DETAILS! They just jump out at you. I feel like I've never heard this level of detail before, on any system. It's at the same level as what I normally hear from top-level headphones. And everything sounds much BIGGER! More life size. Hell, maybe even larger than life (which I love). Downsides? They clearly need some burn in, as they are a bit rough/gritty sounding with zero burn in. But even the grittiness isn't irritating, rather it just presents everything with a "Tom Waits" sort of vibe.
I'll report back as things develop.
After about 5 hours these turned nasty - shallow, etched, flat and spitty sounding. I’m at about 30 hours now and still pretty rough. Sigh. How long is full burn in?
Sadly those caps should take a long time to burn in. I am sure they recommend 400 to 500 hours.
Kinda makes me want to pull out my solid state amp to use during the burn in. Save some of the tubes life.
Yeah, was supposed to get an updated baffle yesterday, hoping it will arrive today so I can get it off to danny.Figured I'd throw out the usual query and see if there have been any changes/updates to the possibility of the Super-7's as a kit/flat pack.
jay
Figured I'd throw out the usual query and see if there have been any changes/updates to the possibility of the Super-7's as a kit/flat pack.
I just received a new baffle to measure and test with. It looks real nice and rear mounts all of the drivers. Jay could probably post a few pics of it.Great to hear! Looking forward to this one
So it is in the works.
You rock Jay! Very nice. You mentioned earlier it is about 30” tall, did this change? Would you share the width as well? I guess Danny will determine the wing dimensions during tests and measurements.
Thanks,
Ed
...and all y'all thought you had it bad trying to veneer one little tweeter waveguide... :lol: :green:I can't imagine that task. I'd guess some form of Automotive-quality paint or spray on coating would be the norm on something this complex.
Glad to see progress made! Also, interesting to consider that this would give Danny an opportunity to maybe tweak the design with an asymmetrical wing pattern. If the baffle width lines up with the "standard" width of the H-frame servo woofers, this build could end up about as easy to put together for folks as a Super-V, with the preformed upper baffle and all. :thumb:
Well, I just measured my top panel of my Super Vs which are longer than the stock panel and they are 25" x13". Do you think there is any way I could get all the drivers in that space? I know I could figure out a way to cover the current driver hole and make the face solid so I could start over but not sure everything will fit?
Greg
I can't imagine that task. I'd guess some form of Automotive-quality paint or spray on coating would be the norm on something this complex.
I have no clue on veneer on something this complicated. Is it possible to use a flat black spray on the waveguides, then veneer completely around them? I imagine they would be problematic at the edges right next to the waveguides.
Hey greg
there is enough room on these that if you were to cut a slice off below the bottom Neo 10 and the "crown off the top, you could get to 25"|
I don't know how your SV baffles are fastened in place but you'd have to get them out of there.
the other thing is, danny has not done final measurements onthese, stome changes may still occur.
jay
Jay, my thought was to just fill the hole that P-Audio driver is in and use the existing baffle. I just don't know if the drivers will fit in the space I have available, like I said I only have 25" in height max. I don't think I can take them out. Ruben made them and they are perfect, I would hate to mess them up by ripping them apart.
Jupiter 10uf and 15uf copper/paper/wax caps came in today. Just got them soldered in. Listening to my first few tracks right now. DAYUM! These are a huge, huge, huge step up over the ClarityCap MRs (bypassed with .22 Jupiters) that I was using before.
It's like switching from speaker wire made out of aluminum to speaker wire made out of very good copper. Which, in a way, is exactly what I did. At this point, as far as I can tell, there's not any aluminum foil in any cap anywhere in the signal path. Except maybe in my Auralic Vega, but I'm fine with that, for now - hahaha!
Anyway, a bit more info on the sound change - DETAILS! They just jump out at you. I feel like I've never heard this level of detail before, on any system. It's at the same level as what I normally hear from top-level headphones. And everything sounds much BIGGER! More life size. Hell, maybe even larger than life (which I love). Downsides? They clearly need some burn in, as they are a bit rough/gritty sounding with zero burn in. But even the grittiness isn't irritating, rather it just presents everything with a "Tom Waits" sort of vibe.
I'll report back as things develop.
Jay, my thought was to just fill the hole that P-Audio driver is in and use the existing baffle. I just don't know if the drivers will fit in the space I have available, like I said I only have 25" in height max. I don't think I can take them out. Ruben made them and they are perfect, I would hate to mess them up by ripping them apart.
I have some Clarity CMR's coming for speaker crossovers, and after reading your post on the Jupiter caps, I hope they will be better SQ than the MR's. I do have some Jupiter's in my tube amps and they do sound the best so far! I could also hear some gritty and rough sounds when they were first installed.
I just wish these copper foil caps were much, much cheaper! lol
Any advice on if I should try to add some smaller value copper foil caps to the CMR's for a bypass?
Can't wait to hear your impressions once they burn in well :thumb:
I went backed and looked at what you are talking about, you are right, no way for me to do that myself. I don't think there is any way I can cleanly take the old piece off the way Ruben did it. I think I would end up chipping the paint.
Hmmm, 3 days later and not 1 response? Perhaps I should have started a new thread on this. Didn't mean to get off subject here, just assumed some would be happy to hear that they could save $$$$ and get great sounding CF caps! :popcorn:
There might be a few skeptics out there. A lot goes into making a cap to make it sound really good.
Values? Prices?
You might want to have to trail runs made of a few values for testing and comparing.
Copper cap updates - I got my wife to allow me to run the speakers in with pink noise at night at low volumes, so things are moving a little bit faster now. I wish these stupid things were cheaper, too. At least they are less expensive than the Duelands.
As of right now, the Jupiters are still in that "good but not great" area that happens for a while during burn in. I'm confident they'll continue to "open up" as I get more time on them, because they did the same thing when I put smaller Jupiter caps into my tube amp.
Hmmm, 3 days later and not 1 response? Perhaps I should have started a new thread on this. Didn't mean to get off subject here, just assumed some would be happy to hear that they could save $$$$ and get great sounding CF caps! :popcorn:
I actually meant to reply to this and got sidetracked,.
Pretty hard to pick values as so many are used in different applications. I know 9 , 10 , 12, 15 uF could be popular....
I'd love to try a pair in my Dodd pre at output caps... think I can probably get by with a 1uf on each channel but I'd have to do the math to be sure
jay
Danny, any chance you have a graph of the Super 7's impedance? I'm about to hook up the amp linked below (Jeff Korneff 45 SET DHT amp) and wanted to make sure I didn't need to do something filter the bass from the signal or something like that:
http://www.tubeaudiolab.com/id237.html
I know that the panels impedance spikes at around 125 hz, I was wondering if that causes problems for tube amps, as they generally like to see fairly flat impedance in a load.
Looks great Tyson. Did you have Min build it or did you get a kit?
Thanks for the update. I had a feeling those caps would come around. Price of admission is pretty high though. The same can be said for the Dueland caps. Great caps, but man they're pricey.Danny - what are the specifics on these speakers again? (Which x-over parts do they have)
Speaking of the Super-7's again...
I have dissembled my listening system and won't have a new one built for a while. The new listening room at the new shop will be 16 feet wide and 38 feet deep. :thumb: But it will take a lot of work to build it into the ideal dedicated room that I need it to be. It's being torn down to bare studs.
So this gorgeous pair of Super-7's are setting idle, covered up in a corner, and not being played. :duh:
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
I need to find a new home for this pair. They deserve to be playing for someone. Make me a serious offer and I might take it.
Danny - what are the specifics on these speakers again? (Which x-over parts do they have)
Also, what are the physical dimensions and weight? Shipping them out here would be expensive.....
:drool:
Just do it John. I think it’s time for a changeYeah, I'm this close to pulling the trigger. If I could magically make LS6's and Super V's sell at reasonable prices (locally - greater SoCal/Central Cal areas - can't imagine trying to ship them. I drive around all the time and can practically deliver them anywhere in the area), it would be a done deal.
Steve
Just drive around with them in the back of the truck. Like the speaker man in the van.Should I paint my Sequoia white, buy a trench coat, and a pair of cheap sunglasses?
Yeah, I'm this close to pulling the trigger. If I could magically make LS6's and Super V's sell at reasonable prices (locally - greater SoCal/Central Cal areas - can't imagine trying to ship them. I drive around all the time and can practically deliver them anywhere in the area), it would be a done deal.
On the other hand, I'm getting the Frankenspeakers dialed in pretty close - sounding better and better all the time, plus they give me HT/2 channel versatility that I would have to work out with the 7's.
I'm using my NX-Oticas & servo subs in a combo 2-channel/HT system. All it took was adding an HT receiver with pre-outs and a sealed sub(s). I connect the L&R main pre-outs from the HT receiver (in my case a Marantz SR-7009) to one of the 2 channel pre-amp inputs. If your 2 channel pre-amp has HT by-pass inputs, use those. If not, you can use any pair of inputs.Thanks for the input - I'll have to go through it carefully. My setup for HT currently is VERY simple so that SWMBO can run everything with the DirecTV remote. Bottom of the line Yamaha with no pre outs. That would be the first thing I'd have to replace.
The key is setting the volume on the 2 channel pre-amp so the HT receiver controls the master volume when watching movies. To do this you will need to know how to set the volume for the chosen pair of pre-amp inputs. If you use a passive or zero (unity) gain pre-amp, you would turn the pre-amps volume all the way up for HT use. If your pre-amp has gain, you will need to know what volume setting corresponds to zero gain (i.e. for my PS Audio Stellar pre-amp a volume level of 76 corresponds to zero gain so that is the volume level I have the pre-amp set to when watching movies). You don't have to be perfect, just close enough so the HT receiver's setup program can level match all your speakers.
The sealed (or ported if you prefer) sub(s) are connected to the subwoofer output(s) of the HT receiver.
I don't use a center channel speaker for HT. The NX-Oticas (and Wedgies before them) are so clean I can hear the dialogue perfectly fine without a dedicated center channel speaker. Besides, there isn't a center channel speaker that can come close to matching my mains so why muddy the system with a mismatch?
When watching movies, all your normal 2 channel gear is on as well as the HT receiver and the receiver is controlling the master volume.
Mike
As long as you are not looking for the latest and greatest, you can find HT receivers with pre-amp outputs for around $400 new. I bought a Denon for my grandson a couple months ago for $430 with pre-amp outputs. It was last years model but still new in box at a hefty discount.Yeah, I certainly don't need all the bells & whistles for an HT receiver. I do need the pre outs and 4k/HDR pass through as a minimum. Room correction and extended Bass management and a big bonus. Have to do some research. Everything handles at least DTS MA & Dolby equivalent. I don't need more than 7.1/7.2. No need for much power. Have to do some research. Good sound is a must, but they are all fairly similar IMO.
Yeah, I certainly don't need all the bells & whistles for an HT receiver. I do need the pre outs and 4k/HDR pass through as a minimum. Room correction and extended Bass management and a big bonus. Have to do some research. Everything handles at least DTS MA & Dolby equivalent. I don't need more than 7.1/7.2. No need for much power. Have to do some research. Good sound is a must, but they are all fairly similar IMO.
I did some research - looked at Denon's current lineup, and you have to start spending some pretty serious money before Pre outs show up.
Hoping to hear good news this week on a separate matter which would make this much easier........ :popcorn:
https://www.accessories4less.com/ (https://www.accessories4less.com/)
They sell refurb products. They have good pricing on AVRs, although stock does vary. All Marantz models have preouts.
For an inexpensive processor check out Outlaw audio.
https://www.accessories4less.com/ (https://www.accessories4less.com/)Yeah, surfed their website before (when I was contemplating a new Pre/Pro s couple of years back) and doing it again for this project. Did some research on them and while most had good things to say about them, I read a few horror stories. Causes me to pause and contemplate other options. Nearest Magnolia is 100 miles away. Not sure a standard Best Buy has knowledgeable staff and/or access to stock that could point me in the best direction.
They sell refurb products. They have good pricing on AVRs, although stock does vary. All Marantz models have preouts.
For an inexpensive processor check out Outlaw audio.
Okay, before anyone calls me out on that, I definitely need to apologize. I was in a strange place last night, and am very sorry.
I'm looking forward to more information on hopefully converting my V1s to Super 7s with the new baffles and drivers, there hasn't been much movement on that as of late.
So I beg forgiveness for my outburst. All audio ideas get us closer to "IT". Audio Grail.
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.
I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.
Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.
I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.
Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.
What kind of wings are going to be attached (if any) and what is approximate dimension of the baffle? Thx
gab
So can this sit on top of a dual 12 H-frame like the NX-Otica MTMs?
Yeah, I certainly don't need all the bells & whistles for an HT receiver. I do need the pre outs and 4k/HDR pass through as a minimum. Room correction and extended Bass management and a big bonus. Have to do some research. Everything handles at least DTS MA & Dolby equivalent. I don't need more than 7.1/7.2. No need for much power. Have to do some research. Good sound is a must, but they are all fairly similar IMO.Still trying to figure out how to swing this - a simple enough solution that my wife can turn everything on/off simply with a single remote for HT, and not having to undo/redo all my connections for 2 channel.
I did some research - looked at Denon's current lineup, and you have to start spending some pretty serious money before Pre outs show up.
Hoping to hear good news this week on a separate matter which would make this much easier........ :popcorn:
If you run the front L/R via RCA preouts, you can I leave the other channels connected to the speaker terminals for center & surrounds and allow the AVR to supply power to them. That is not a problem. I am running like this currently until I finish all my amp builds. There is not any delay as long as the AVR has been setup properly. During set up of the AVR the distances and levels are determined and the delays are set for the channels.That's my current setup, and something I am trying to get away from.
If you want to not run your preamp unless you are not listening to 2 channel music, I would use another set of speakers to use with multichannel/TV watching instead of plugging/unplugging cables regularly. You then have 4 main speakers, which also may not be best for domestic bliss.
I run my HT in 2 channel mode. Gets rid of the need for even an AVR at all. With the Super 7s, I really don't miss the other channels. I'd rather have 2 astonishingly great 2 speakers over "merely good" 7.1 channels. The good news is that it would simplify things for your wife EVEN MORE, which is probably a nice thing for her.Interesting suggestion, but don't think it would work for us. Among other things, one of the main things my AVR does as serve as a switching device between multiple devices - Bluray, DirecTV, Roku, Playstation, and Google Chrome. I also like having a CC for dialog (when seated other than PRIME center listening position)
Interesting suggestion, but don't think it would work for us. Among other things, one of the main things my AVR does as serve as a switching device between multiple devices - Bluray, DirecTV, Roku, Playstation, and Google Chrome. I also like having a CC for dialog (when seated other than PRIME center listening position)
That's my current setup, and something I am trying to get away from.
Wings will be similar to the tp of the original Super 7's. That baffle is rougly 500 xx 330 mm
jay
Hey Jay, is 500 mm a typo? Driver dimensions suggest it has to be more than 25”. I can make anything up to 26”, maybe 27” work sitting on top of my H frames, anything taller I will have to consider whether I want to try them on some sort of stand.
Best,
Ed
My guess is youll be able to order either way.
This thread is stupid.....I'm sure its gonna cost me money
and an explanation to my wife.... :lol:
Yes, this is all Danny and Jay's fault.
It never ends. :duh: :thumb:
Sure it does, it ends with the Super 7 :P At least that's what I tell myself :o
I told myself that with the Wedgie :lol:+1 :oops: :lol: :lol:
I have been working with new Super-7 baffles for the last few days and I finally have a version that produces a nice response and can be CNC milled from a single baffle with no protruding wave guide for the tweeter. So it will be a lot easier to make and will look cleaner.
I think this is going to work fellows. I can at some point release this design as a kit if the CNC flat packs from Jay are used.
Next Jay will have to replicate what I have here and I'll have to measure and test the baffle to confirm everything.
Me? a typo? , never :lol:
yeah, should be 700 x 330 mm (not including the arc at the top).... can't even blame the keyboard on that one... wrong hand !!
jay
+1 :oops: :lol: :lol:
Best,
Ed
So roughly 27-1/2" x 13" . I take it 27-1/2" is the height. What's the height at the center of the tweeter?
Mike
Wouldn't it be ~27.5" / 2? Looks like its right in the center, vertically and horizontally.
-Jim
Without asking you to lay all your cards on the table for no reason other than to satisfy my curiosity, any hints as to what it took to solve the tweeter baffle problem without the protruding wave guide? Unless I'm looking at the latest renders and missing something, it looks like the tweeter waveguide is asymmetrical?
So roughly 27-1/2" x 13" . I take it 27-1/2" is the height. What's the height at the center of the tweeter?
Mike
Thanks Jay
That’s as pictured, without a bottom, correct?
Mike
That’s as pictured, without a bottom, correct?
Without reading the whole thread, I was wondering how much room these need? Would 14x18 work? :popcorn:
The number of pages in this thread is intimidating....has a total cost for flat pack + drivers + crossover parts + ?? = $$$$ been worked out yet?
Michael
The number of pages in this thread is intimidating....has a total cost for flat pack + drivers + crossover parts + ?? = $$$$ been worked out yet?
Michael
Drivers are roughly $3500. So the upper baffle/flat pack, crossover parts, and misc speaker parts costs would need to be added in.
You’re still looking at $1,800 for the drivers plus crossovers, wire, tube connectors, flatpacks, shipping, and finishing. Definately a significant savings over building the H-Frames too but still a chunck of change.
True. But a hell of a lot cheaper than $20K!
Thanks for the update. I had a feeling those caps would come around. Price of admission is pretty high though. The same can be said for the Dueland caps. Great caps, but man they're pricey.Danny, I was looking to see if there was a photo showing the Plate Amp(s) and their enclosures for these, but didn't see one. By chance, do you have a photo of one or both?
Speaking of the Super-7's again...
I have dissembled my listening system and won't have a new one built for a while. The new listening room at the new shop will be 16 feet wide and 38 feet deep. :thumb: But it will take a lot of work to build it into the ideal dedicated room that I need it to be. It's being torn down to bare studs.
So this gorgeous pair of Super-7's are setting idle, covered up in a corner, and not being played. :duh:
(http://gr-research.com/pics/silverpair3.jpg)
I need to find a new home for this pair. They deserve to be playing for someone. Make me a serious offer and I might take it.
Yup.
for guys who don't already have subs, I've been working the idea of having these drop directly on the top of one of our modular sections or possibly having a different top for the non modular duals, .
I'd love to see the mock up of this. I have H-Frames that I built, so they suck. I'd replace them with yours if I decided to build out the Super 7.
Took the plunge and ordered Danny's Super 7's. Can't wait. Now I need to get serious about moving my current speakers.
Thanks Danny! Eagerly looking forward to these speakers. I remember how much I enjoyed them at RMAF.
Oh, and....
Happy Birthday Danny! :banana piano: :dance: :wine: :birthday: :birthday: :birthday:
I think this brings us up to 8 official Super 7 Owners in this thread now :thumb:
Happy birthday Danny!
Tyson, you inspired me to check out the Jupiter caps on my custom-made VTA M125 monoblocks. I heard an immediate increase in soundstage. Singers seemed to have dropped back a few more feet. But at the same time something was off. I'm sure they just need to break in. Not looking forward to breaking them in but at the same time appreciating the positives now.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/826/41296787114_96aee51a0a_c.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/25VfQ3W)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/25VfQ3W) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/79446895@N00/)
Congrats John.Thanks Sunil! Really looking forward to these.
Congrats!! You are going to LOVE those speakers. I think this brings us up to 8 official Super 7 Owners in this thread now :thumb:Thanks Tyson! Love your new Amps. I'd love to have the ability to try some SET's with these at some point. I heard a Demo at one of the shows where they had an Amp that was capable pf being switched in and out of SET mode. More power (bass especially noticeable), but the mids and highs were just soooo much better in SET mode.
And Happy Birthday Danny!!!
Congrats John :beer:Thanks Jay! Love all the hard work you've done with Danny on trying to bring these out in Kit form. I think they're pretty special speakers.
Happy birthday Danny :beer:
jay
Thanks Tyson! Love your new Amps. I'd love to have the ability to try some SET's with these at some point. I heard a Demo at one of the shows where they had an Amp that was capable pf being switched in and out of SET mode. More power (bass especially noticeable), but the mids and highs were just soooo much better in SET mode.
Thanks Tyson! Love your new Amps. I'd love to have the ability to try some SET's with these at some point. I heard a Demo at one of the shows where they had an Amp that was capable pf being switched in and out of SET mode. More power (bass especially noticeable), but the mids and highs were just soooo much better in SET mode.
Danny, I noticed in your old pic of the Super 7's you have your big blue amps there. Even though they are pretty efficient, can they handle that kind of power? I was just wondering since my tube amps are around 140w/ch. I also have a 60w/ch stereo tube amp I can use. I only bring this up because Tyson seems content with way less power.
Hey Danny, I've noticed that with the Super 7 Neo 10 drivers, it's not really necessary to limit the low frequencies that you send to them - they sound fine and they don't get damaged, even when sending very loud/dynamic full frequency signals to them.
Why is that? With other speakers, it's often necessary to high pass the midrange driver or the driver can get damaged - what is it about the Neo 10's that makes them not need that?
Drivers have mechanical limits and thermal limits.
The Neo 10's simply run out of mechanical travel pretty easily and simply can't move enough air to produce lower ranges. And unlike cone drivers they won't bottom out or beat themselves up if driven too hard in a lower range. The diaphragm will move as far as it can and that's it. So they just physically won't play down very low.
And each driver can handle about ten watts or so with a full range signal without hurting them at all. Times four drivers they'll be playing pretty loud before they are even being driven hard.
Limiting the low end signal does help a little and minimizes diaphragm movement. You guys just aren't playing them hard enough for it to matter too much.
Thermally they can handle 100 watts each easily and continuously if the power is clean.
Interesting! So, 10 watts per panel, with 4 panels that's 40 watts continuous (not peaks!) before they even start to sweat. Hmm, lets see how loud that is. Since they're 97db efficient, 1 watt is making 97db at 1 meter. 2 watts is 100db. 4 watts is 103db. 8 watts is 106db. 16 watts is 109db. 32 watts is 112db. So 40 watt is around 113db. Continuous!!! Holy shit!
Yeah, you are right, I'm not playing them anywhere near their limits :thumb:
Danny,
Just curious...When you were designing the Super 7 (and / or redesigning the DIY version), why didn't you go with a thin vertical MM T MM arrangement to minimize baffle width (kinda like the wedgie)? Why the compact horizontal arrangement? Was there a sonic advantage or was it simply to better aesthetically sit atop the OB sub?
- Nicholas
Danny,
Just curious...When you were designing the Super 7 (and / or redesigning the DIY version), why didn't you go with a thin vertical MM T MM arrangement to minimize baffle width (kinda like the wedgie)? Why the compact horizontal arrangement? Was there a sonic advantage or was it simply to better aesthetically sit atop the OB sub?
- Nicholas
Cool. Since we're on the subject, what about something like this (not to scale)?(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183274)
How would this impact wave propagation? Significantly different than the current Super-7 design?
I think about the "swarm" approach of the Tekton Design Impact Monitor.(https://www.stereophile.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/718tek.promo_.jpg)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-impact-monitor-loudspeaker
I haven't heard it...but the measurements don't look awful (regardless of how ridiculous is looks).
That's an interesting idea.
I had to go lay the drivers out and take some measurements of that. If I lay the Neo 10's edge to edge then they make a 14.75" diameter square. So they would need a 15" baffle.
:D is this a more the better thing ? Could one 15" per side work with this if ?
KISS kinda thing ? :D
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running.
It took a bit to get everything up and running, mostly due to operator error.
WOW!
I mean just WOW! :o :o
I am still working on placement with PEQ off to get the Bass and soundstage to the best compromise before I start trying to dial in the bass. I know I have some work ahead of me, but so far I am just blown away.
Air. Detail. Speed. - These are the first descriptors that come to mind with regard to differences from my old setup.
I'll report back with updates, but for now I have a houseful of Relatives about to show up, and I have to get things cleaned up. :banghead:
THANKS DANNY!!! :thumb: :wave:
Tyson, I have read your praise of the Spatial X2s which I own. Wonder how you would compare them to the Super-7s. I think the AMT wide range driver is really good in the X2s, and after making some position changes I'm getting better bass, and overall they sound amazing to me. Best sound I've had so far. But still think bass impact could be better. Have been thinking of getting some flat packs and associated parts for a couple of GR dual OB subs. But maybe the Super-7 instead?
Jeff
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running.
First of all, they were packed extremely well and showed up in perfect condition. Managed to get the tops off and some of the extra goodies out of the boxes, then move them inside by myself.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183440)
When is our crew from No Cal coming to visit?
We can’t wait to hear them. I’m so happy for you.
Cheese
At that point, I decided I needed to wait for another pair of hands to help get them out of their crates, so I had to wait.....grrrrrrr.
It was worth the wait....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183441)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183442)
(Ignore all the extra wires - still experimenting )
These Speakers are GORGEOUS!
Danny also sent along the custom Folsom Chip Amp for me to try out.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=183443)
It took a bit to get everything up and running, mostly due to operator error.
WOW!
I mean just WOW! :o :o
I am still working on placement with PEQ off to get the Bass and soundstage to the best compromise before I start trying to dial in the bass. I know I have some work ahead of me, but so far I am just blown away.
Air. Detail. Speed. - These are the first descriptors that come to mind with regard to differences from my old setup.
I'll report back with updates, but for now I have a houseful of Relatives about to show up, and I have to get things cleaned up. :banghead:
THANKS DANNY!!! :thumb: :wave:
I have finally joined the Owners club! Super excited! Bought the pair Danny has been talking about in this thread. They arrived on Monday and I was in a hurry to try to get them up & running....
When is our crew from No Cal coming to visit?
We can’t wait to hear them. I’m so happy for you.
Cheese
Give me a couple of months and I might be able to get you the same wax film on a four 9's pure Copper foil made in the USA. All in the works right now.
Hey Danny, any news on this?
It sounds like we need to get a few more of you guys into some 97db sensitivity Super-7's so you can use your favorite low powered tube amps.
It sounds like we need to get a few more of you guys into some 97db sensitivity Super-7's so you can use your favorite low powered tube amps.
Well, my Super Vs are 97db efficient correct? In my 20'x30'x10' room I seem to need at least 35wpc with tube amps and much more with the solid state amps I have tried. I will say that I like to listen loud at times and of course there are the older recordings that generally aren't recorded as loud.
The Dennis Had Inspire QMB-25 Mono Blocks are rated at 25wpc and they could almost do what I needed them to do. Just a bit more would have been perfect. These amps, like I mentioned are very nice sounding and very quiet as well.
Erse never got anywhere with it. They couldn't get a wax paper film to work.
I just measured and tested Jay's latest CNC cut baffle for these and it worked great.
We can now re-release these as a kit.
Great!! Price and options?
I think I can put all the parts together including some Platinum by-pass caps for the tweeter circuit and still keep the whole kit under $3,900.
Jay is working on the flat pack cost right now.
So drop $1,600 for a total of $2,300 if you already have dual H-Frames and amps?
Great!! Price and options? Full speaker and monitor version
Danny,
Do you have a picture of the final revision? Any measurements?
Steve
[/
quote]
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185570)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=185571)
jay
Gonna need to be patient for a bit longer Mike. I'm not going to set any prices until all parts are programmed, full sheets laid out, and costs determined.
On a good note, we plan to get going on these basically right away
jay
right around 7.5" deep Mike
jay
Hi Jay
can you paint them also?
"or maybe Super 10!!!!!"He lusts after more Bass. Instead of 5 Neo’s and 2 OB (“Super 7”), why not 3, 4, or more 12” OB per side.
Wait a second! ...did I miss something!?
What are 'Super 10'? :scratch:
He lusts after more Bass. Instead of 5 Neo’s and 2 OB (“Super 7”), why not 3, 4, or more 12” OB per side.
:guitar: :rock: :bounce:
After doing some room and sub modeling, decided on a new location for the servo sub towers in my listening room.
Avoosl came over for the sub tower movement and driver rewire to test them with all the sub drivers facing forward. Updated the time delay between the subs and lines to work with the new sub positioning. Audibly much improved over the original response in the low end from the original positions.
Will be making new room response measurements to see what needs adjustment.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182740)
A friend of mine once mounted a bunch of large woofers into the wall. His whole house would shake, his Dad was not a lover of that.
Yeah, I am not fan of the Jantzen inductors. I know for fact that they are made in China with recycled Copper and are only 94 to 96% Copper. The rest is just trash. My experience with them is a muddy sound. The Erse inductors sound much cleaner. And if you want a good foil inductor the Alpha Core or Erse foil inductors are very nice.
JIC anyone might be interested, my Super-7s...
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141060.180
...are surplus and will be for sale, but they're not quite available right now, as one bass amp hums. Jeff Glowacki said that's easily fixable--his, too, hummed--so I'll be sending both amps back the week of Dec. 05.
After the hum from the bass amp grated on me long enough, I found an affordable pair of Quad 2905s, having had and loved their predecessors, the ESL989. I also bought PS Audio BHK300 monoamps, and I'm thrilled with the system's transparency and overall sounds. I have no shipping coffins so can't ship them, but I will transport them some distance. Virtually all crossover parts have been replaced, and excellent AQ speakercable is captive.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=187516)
(Pls pardon the dust; they've been standing around for most of a year.)
If you're at all interested at $8K plus shipping or simply want more pics, e-mail me at jeffreybehr(at)cox(dot)net.
I was recommending this kit to someone and re read some of this thread. Interesting that Jantzen had their copper tested after these remarks and indeed they tested exactly as they say.....99.9% copper. At the end of the following link you see the results of this test. By the way, I do not agree with their stance that OFC copper is not better than pitch copper for audio use. However, their copper does measure what they state.....as to the sound.....well, so far everyone is happy.
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=142235.0
I am sure the Quads are great.....however, you never really heard what the Super 7 can do. If the picture represents the last incarnation of your xover....then you are not getting at all what can be gotten. You need a 12 gauge foil coil on the midrange and the other coils must be foil coils as well.....way more info and transparency. Then all the caps can be upgraded to better ones.....and the speaker wire is just 16 gauge OFC solid core wire. No way 16 gauge wire can pass great high frequencies. You need to rewire all the drivers. The xover will suck hardmounted to the bass module. Just unscrew it and put a piece or two of cardboard underneath......probably blow you mind. You can also damp the midrange drivers with small pieces of constrained layer damping material.......I did this to my single Neo 10 and it improved the sound. Now, even with all the mods in the world and better parts....it still might not be to you liking....but no way would I listen to those wonderful drivers implemented the way you have them. Every single thing you do affects the sonics. Unless everything is done all out....you are missing the magic. Implemented with great xover parts, wire and tweaking these drivers are amazing. Also, I would have both woofers facing forward, as well. I bet it would sound better......someone....please try this in your Super 7.
If I were to make this speaker I would mount the 2 or 3 servo woofs on their own open baffle and sit them next to the panels and have the voice coils all aligned. Yes, I know it would not play as loud.....however, Spatial is selling a $25K speaker with just two of these 12 inch servos on an open baffle and at the show they played them dang loud. I would make a separate stand for the mids/highs and have the passive xover on another stand so it would not vibrate with anything.....but, what the heck, I am a perfectionist. I want musicians in the room!
...
Thx Ric. The x-over is a work in process; I simply quit on it when the bass-amp hum wore me out. The caps are SoniCap 'propylenes bypassed with LARGE SoniCap Platinums.
And those musicians came along with the Quad 2905s and PSAudio BKH300s. :D
I had the same problem with my Super Vs re: Noise. Fixed it with a P.I. Audio Buss, TWL power cables, rewiring my mains outlet, removing the 300B amps I had in my system and replacing them with Neurochrome amp and being very careful about wire routing. My A370 amps still hum, but its transformer hum not coming through the speakers. I can hear it *just barely* from my PLP, but as soon as the music starts, it gets masked.
Thx Ric. The x-over is a work in process; I simply quit on it when the bass-amp hum wore me out. The caps are SoniCap 'propylenes bypassed with LARGE SoniCap Platinums.I have Quad 57 and Quad 63 ,I love them even more GR open baffle bass . :o
And those musicians came along with the Quad 2905s and PSAudio BKH300s. :D
Haven't had a tube go bad in the last 6 months, that's pretty much a record for me....
Probably I'll soon be returning my S7s to my main system, replacing at least temporarily the Quads. The bass amps are at Sonic Craft being recapped. Until they return, I'll be using my 15" Rythmik SWs that are driven by the stereo signals as woofers. My goal is to listen to the MR and treble to see how relatively good it is.. My problem is that I have two fine speaker systems--Quad 2905s and Serenity S7s--and two pairs of monoamps--BHK300s and Atma-Sphere M-60s--and I don't yet know which pairs to keep and which to sell.
We'll see. :)
Made some upgrades to my Dennis Had "Inspire" monoblocks. Rewired them with UPOCC/Teflon signal wire, low mass high purity copper Furutech binding posts and low mass pure copper ETI female RCA input jacks. The improved clarity and liveliness is really addictive. It's amazing how the Super 7s just let you hear every single little improvement in your upstream equipment. Even something as minor as RCA, wire and binding post improvements.
While I was in there I also bypassed all the power supply caps with the 600v Miflex Copper foil caps. Man, those things are nice, and waaaaayyyy cheaper than the Jupiter caps.
Very interested to hear your comparison vs the stats - for blackness and clarity I haven't heard a typical cone that can match quads. You're one of the few who could A/B them with planar magnetics.
Have them standing on Wagner/DiversiTech 2" pads...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191641)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191640)
Nice comparison with the Quads. I guess I am a bit sceptical regarding the Super 7 being as revealing and transparent as electorstats. I would see it more like a Maggy in that regard.
The neo 3 is a great, natural, non fatiguing, tweeter, but not the last word in detail retrieval. So I would expect the same with the mid drivers.
Steve, if you had an active crossover and the desire, it would be interesting to try the Super 7 woofers with the Quads. I know, that's a bit of work and we just want the music, ha. BTW, how is the image height on the Super 7s?
Rocket Ronny
These are the production Super-7's?
Didn't somebody say that on these speakers both Sub woofers faced out?
Steve
These are the production Super-7's?
Didn't somebody say that on these speakers both Sub woofers faced out?
Steve
A Black marker pen will get rid of the blue. They look a whole lot better in black.
First, I am surprised these S7s sound as good as they do with VERY little--maybe 30 hours--break-in after being still for a year.. And to think they'll get better over the next few months! The two speakers sound remarkably similar, and they should IMO--they're both high-quality, thin-film-driver, point-source, open-baffle speakers.
In the treble, the S7s sound to me just like the Quads, that being excellent--transparent, NOT edgy, extended enough for me--simply VERY nice.
The midrange of the S7s is, I think, a tiny bit less transparent, a teency bit less revealing of the complexities of the music.. This difference is so small that I'm not sure it exists, and if it exists, it may be more from lack of break-in than anything else.
Subequent note. I believe one reason the MR is as transparent as it is is that there are no hi-pass filter caps in the network--and, after all, there's no capacitor that sounds as good as no capacitor. :roll:
The bass is where the big differences are.. The S7s are significantly more resolved, extended, and powerful than the Quads.. The Quads are adequately powerful in the upper- and midbass but disappear quickly in the bottom octave.. The S7s' bass quantity varies significantly depending on where one sets the two bass-amp level controls; mine are set so that the woofers' output does not make the lower MR sound thick (IMO, of course).. (Both low-pass filters are set to c. 80Hz.) The bass is quite resolved and integrated with the MR in my opinion; for instance, one can hear the fuzzy harmonics of massed bass fiddles in an excellent orchestral recording; with the Quads, not so much.. The S7s sound quite natural performing this magic of combining different systems to play the sounds of ONE instrument.. The Quads require a subwoofer for a system to have much bottom-octave energy..
The S7s driven by my 45-Watts-into-4 Atma-Sphere M-60s are somewhat more lively dynamically, I think, compared with the Quads driven by the Atma-Sphere 140-Watt MA-1s.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191725)
All in all, I'm amazed that I gave up all this last year; I must have been REALLY annoyed by the bassamp hum-buzz.. BTW the bassamps are dead quiet after having their main-PS caps replaced.
I'll be replacing a few parts in the crossovers and rewiring the system in the near future, but none of that will change the basic excellence of the Super-7s.. TYVM Danny; they're better than I thought. :D :green: :D :green: :D
Hi Jeffreybehr, Thanks a lot for the extended review of the S7s - Your setup looks absolutely amazing! I have never had a chance to hear any of the B&G Neo drivers, but I am very interested in knowing more about the S7s, so I would very much like to hear: Do they have the same punch as cone drivers in the low mids? I ask because I mostly play rock, and fear missing out on that part.
Thanks a lot!
Best regards
Peter
I mostly play rock, and fear missing out on that part.
Why not get a rock speaker like the JBL M2s or 708s.
Rocket Ronny
Why not get a rock speaker like the JBL M2s or 708s.
Rocket Ronny
Because they are not Open Baffle... :wink:
Or just do what I do - have 2 systems!
Ha, but that's the point. Open Baffle speakers don't make the best rock speakers. They are best musical gateway teleporters, but a box speaker with wave guides or horns make the best rock speakers.
You are certainly welcome to your opinion.
I owned the Super Vs for about 2 1/2 years and I thought they were one of the best Rock speakers I have ever heard.
Got the new powercord installed and the room mostly picked up.. Looks not half bad, huh!?!?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192146)
Jeff, Look a lot neater/cleaner. Very nice! BTW, your toe in matches mine exactly. When the 7s are dialed in, I've never heard another speaker as capable of transporting you to a venue/space as them. Spooky realism.
Have you done any upgrades to the crossover components on yours?
:thumb: :thumb:
Bet it sounds great
jay
Jeff, if you're going to look at upgrading caps, I'd recommend checking out the Miflex Copper caps from Jeff at Sonic Craft. They are just as good as the Jupiter Copper/Paper caps for a lot less money.
I'm still blinking and panting...just ordered the replacements-for-the-replacement 10uF tweeter-hi-pass and 15uF (10 + 4.7) MR-lo-pass-shunt caps from Sonic Craft, all Miflex copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oils.. The 10s are almost 4" in diameter!!
htt
You may need some bigger granite tiles for the new crossover. 8)
(I measure with the base of the unit against my chin.).The best way is to setup a mic stand when you measure your in room response and use the laser on the side of the speaker cabinet to the mic on the stand. This way it's a fixed point.
Jeffrey Behr
You said: "I agree on the KCPU's 5-star quality; I use them as coupling and frontend-hi-Voltage-supply-bypass caps in both pairs of Atma-Spheres I have.. In fact, the trios installed in the MA-1s are the FIRST cap upgrade I could CLEARLY hear the results of upon power-up.. The 'problem' with these 600VDC caps is their relatively large size--they're larger, for instance than the Teflon-film SoniCap Platinums.."
I too have a pair of MA-1s (old style).
1. Could you tell me the sonic benefits?
2. Where did you get the KCPUs (cost)
3. Any tricks for putting them in?
Thanks,
Chuck
I couldn't deal with the cost/space requirements of those monster caps so I've gone with the Soniccap G1's bypassed withthe Miflex coppers.
A while back I did some direct comparisons of a 12 ga Gortz Alpha Core foil inductor and a 12 awg Jantzen wax / foil inductor.... all I was doing was swapping the single inductor Nothing else.
I swapped them out numerous times with lengthy listening periods on each . They are so similar that I could not say I preferred one over the other. This inductor was the low pass component (direct signal path) for a pair of M165NQ's. it was paired witha sonicap g1 / Jupiter copper bypass cap -> shunt.
for this reason, the S7 network here will use the Gortz Alpha core copper foil inductors
Will likely be wiring in Neotech 16 awg / teflon UPOCC
It would be cool one day to be able to have a fully upgraded pair with al lthe "Botique stuff" and a pair similar to what we're building and do some full speaker swaps
jay
That's not the Danny way though. You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them.
What are talking about?What are you talking about?
What are you talking about?
That's not the Danny way though. You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them.
That's not the Danny way though. You want to crossovers that are measured electrically the same, then swap the crossovers that have tube connectors on them.
Yeah.....he a funny guy, always the best.....until the next best.....and then the next best.... :lol:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=193093)
The pic above includes 10-, 4.7-, 0.68-, 0.33-, and 0.22uF Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil capacitors, all 600VDC rated, and a CD for comparison of sizes.. Weights of the first two are 5 pounds, 15.5 ounces (2.707Kg) and 2 pounds, 14 ounces (1.294Kg).
Each Super-7 crossover will contain two of the 10s, one 4.7, and several other 'normal'-size caps and chokes, all on the 11"wide-by-12"-deep granite tile. Also received the Mundorf Silver/Gold 18g. wire to use on the MR panels. Initially I'll use the existing AQ GO-4* speakercable now in use. Later will make and use double-18g. S/G (for MR) and 23g. Neotec Silver-in-Teflon (for treble) cables to connect to the amps.
More later. :D
* 15g.-times-two, all-best-copper, DBS-system cable.
Tyson. I have not followed the cap talk. What would you call bliss. Are these caps a significant increase in sound? Thanks
Rocket Ronny
It will take about 500 hours for those caps to fully burn in. But once they do, bliss!
More like an hour in my experience.
.... Still haven't installed the Miflex KPCU copper-foil caps in the crossovers. :oops:
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/08/d3/c708d342fa91c401736910206b921502.jpg)
Here is something that Super-7 owners may want to check - tightness of the mounting screws on the Neo-10 and Neo-3 drivers. I found that all of them needed to be tightened to some degree. I did not torque them beyond barely finger tight. In my case it was obvious that the screws were not tight enough – I would have stopped if they were snug when initially checked. The impact on image focus and overall detail and clarity is amazing. I checked the woofer mounting screws also but found most were already snug.
It may be something just applicable to my pair – they were shipped to Wisconsin to the first owner; then to me in North Carolina. I have spent a lot of time working with speaker position so they have been moved around quite a bit.
Anyway just wanted to share this in case you hadn’t thought of checking this – may take your speakers to another level if the screws are not snug.
Here is something that Super-7 owners may want to check - tightness of the mounting screws on the Neo-10 and Neo-3 drivers. I found that all of them needed to be tightened to some degree. I did not torque them beyond barely finger tight. In my case it was obvious that the screws were not tight enough – I would have stopped if they were snug when initially checked. The impact on image focus and overall detail and clarity is amazing. I checked the woofer mounting screws also but found most were already snug.Thanks for the reminder!
It may be something just applicable to my pair – they were shipped to Wisconsin to the first owner; then to me in North Carolina. I have spent a lot of time working with speaker position so they have been moved around quite a bit.
Anyway just wanted to share this in case you hadn’t thought of checking this – may take your speakers to another level if the screws are not snug.
Well, thank you very much Bernardo! I'll check mine today.
Now that there's more Super 7 kits being sold/built, I'm surprised we don't have more activity on this thread.
I'm slowly building mine out.
I just had mine painted. Not sure when I will get to assembling them.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195771)
I just had mine painted. Not sure when I will get to assembling them.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195771)
A question for Super-7 owners. I asked Danny for the recommended setting for the A370PEQ Delay/Phase Control for the Super-7s. He does not have it documented but does state it should be the same for all Super-7s. Mine is set at 0, which is where it was when I received them from the first owner.
Anyone have a different setting or have experimented with this feature? If so please describe how you determined the best setting.
Asking because a friend says it can make an improvement when set correctly.
Thanks for any input.
I have mine at 13 clicks back from 180. At zero, I get a lot of cancelation near the the cross over range and they sound thin.
I've got to do some sweeps one of these days but have run through this a few times with different sets of ears and keep coming back to that.
jay
I'm going to give that a try!
Wouldn't have thought this would make a difference but remember, with the new kits both SW12's face forward. There are a few other subtle changes too inclding a differnt wave guide ( this wouldn't effect the phase stting for the bottom end) and slightly deeper set Neo10 (this may have a very slight effect but I wouldn't think much).
Be interested to know what some of the folks running the new S7 monitors have the phase set at.
jay
Ron here from NRD. Correct me if I am wrong, but in order to measure the phase of the sub, does it need to be measured with other sub playing at the same time? Im going by distant memory here but I could swear I tried measuring the phase with just one sub and it didnt do jack?
Well, my mind just got blown. This entire time I thought the phase relationship was from sub to sub, and now realized its from mains to sub... LOL
I have been doing it wrong the entire time!
I use REW to dial in the phase setting. The setting is different in different rooms and usually for each speaker. There is no one correct position for the phase control.That's what I thought as well. Distance to boundary walls for the drivers, distance to the primary listening position, as well as the crossover to other drivers are all factors, and that differs to each system (room treatments also factor in which include things besides dedicated acoustic products [GIK, ASC, etc] such as building materials and other factors).
Mike
Tell me more about how you use REW to adjust phase..... :green:
That's what I thought as well. Distance to boundary walls for the drivers, distance to the primary listening position, as well as the crossover to other drivers are all factors, and that differs to each system (room treatments also factor in which include things besides dedicated acoustic products [GIK, ASC, etc] such as building materials and other factors).
Tell me more about how you use REW to adjust phase..... :green:
What do you have the crossover set to?
TIA,
Steve
So jeffreybehr and SoCalWJS – do you mind stating what position you have set for the A370PEQ phase control?I've been all over the place - 0, 90, 180, & places in between. Not completely thrilled with any of them. I have a problematic ("compromise") setup in my house. Not a dedicated 2 channel room - far more focused on Home Theater - I can get away with that. WAF. She loves TV as much as I do and wants to listen to good sound while watching. So I'll just go out on a limb and say that having a 60" Plasma smack dab in the middle of the speakers (on a rack/equipment stand, albeit low) is a hard obstacle to overcome.
Sounds like Mike and Jay are the only ones to have set this control correctly on the Super-7s.
I've been all over the place - 0, 90, 180, & places in between. Not completely thrilled with any of them. I have a problematic ("compromise") setup in my house. Not a dedicated 2 channel room - far more focused on Home Theater - I can get away with that. WAF. She loves TV as much as I do and wants to listen to good sound while watching. So I'll just go out on a limb and say that having a 60" Plasma smack dab in the middle of the speakers (on a rack/equipment stand, albeit low) is a hard obstacle to overcome.
I have a multitude of room treatments and move them around any time I have a new "Theory" on what will help the most. I'll pull out the OmniMic & REW next week and play around again, but it's tough to overcome a major issue I have. Maybe I can take some pictures to try to show what I am trying to deal with (besides the TV) when I'm taking measurements.
What I am happy with is the depth IN FRONT of the speakers, but I have little/no depth behind........yeah, the TV. Thing weighs 100+ pounds, so I can't just lift it off the mount in order to listen. :banghead:
I'd recommend getting an Epson 5040 projector, it does UHD and 4k and can mount on the ceiling or a on a shelf on a wall. Image wise, it's AWESOME to have a 100 inch screen. Acoustically it's even BETTER because you get rid of the glass on the wall and when you're not using the screen, it rolls up out of the way.I actually have an older 1080p projector (and an even older 720p). Also problematic - how to mount? Again, I'll try to get photos at some point. Basically the mount would put it in the middle of "The Great Room" and would be a PITA to mount (certainly stuff that I don't want to do myself). No provisions for power or cable there. Basically, the room was designed for everything to be put in one way. Prewired for speakers. Power to a ceiling mount. Fairly easy for everything. Problem is I put the stereo in and listened to it. It was BAD. Adjusted everything. Not any better. Wife readily agreed to spin everything 90 degrees. MUCH better, but have to overcome a "built-in" shelf/entertainment "alcove" on one side.
So jeffreybehr and SoCalWJS – do you mind stating what position you have set for the A370PEQ phase control?Oh really?
Sounds like Mike and Jay are the only ones to have set this control correctly on the Super-7s.
Have finally specified the new speaker cable to Sonic Craft; will be four conductors of 18g. Mundorf Silver/Gold and two of 23g. Neotec OCC-silver-in-Teflon.. Conductor lengths will be enough to run unbroken wire all the way to drivers, unbroken only as required by the X-over components.. I believe this will inspire me to finally rebuild the x-overs (again!) using mostly Miflex KPCU copperfoil/'propylene&paper/oil caps.. They're BIG!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196036)
I actually have an older 1080p projector (and an even older 720p). Also problematic - how to mount? Again, I'll try to get photos at some point. Basically the mount would put it in the middle of "The Great Room" and would be a PITA to mount (certainly stuff that I don't want to do myself). No provisions for power or cable there. Basically, the room was designed for everything to be put in one way. Prewired for speakers. Power to a ceiling mount. Fairly easy for everything. Problem is I put the stereo in and listened to it. It was BAD. Adjusted everything. Not any better. Wife readily agreed to spin everything 90 degrees. MUCH better, but have to overcome a "built-in" shelf/entertainment "alcove" on one side.
jeffreybehr-
Your response suggests that you have your Delay/Phase control set correctly – how did you determine the 0 setting is best?
You can get one that does HDMI via Wifi so you only need to plug in for power. I think it's the 5040UB model if I'm not mistaken. Just put a shelf on the wall at the back of the room (if you can) and put the projector on the shelf. Doesn't need to be ceiling mounted.Mmmmmmm.....no can do. The "rear wall" is 35+ feet from the location the screen would likely be, and is the kitchen which is a wall of cupboards - no shelves.
Mmmmmmm.....no can do. The "rear wall" is 35+ feet from the location the screen would likely be, and is the kitchen which is a wall of cupboards - no shelves.
(also part of my acoustical issues - the volume of space I am trying to fill is enormous - not all of it is listening area. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and 10 feet from the primary listening position, but I have a 20' x 30' space behind [with 10' ceilings])
**forgive the image quality - had to improvise**
In the image above, the space I use is described as the "Great Room". You can see that there is a "Media Niche" along the left wall. The original plan was to put all the equipment in that space with speakers to either side. It sounded like cr@p! I got to rotate everything 90 degrees and the speakers and TV are along the wall at the top of the image. The "Great Room" is about 15 1/2 feet across (plus the "Media Niche" - almost 2 feet deep), but the open space behind my chair is very large. Many problems, but ones that I can deal with better, just does mot lend itself to a projector.
Short throw projector?I've seen the "Super Short throw" ones and I'm keeping an eye on them. Very specific placement requirements though.
Tough room.
Come on guys--SIX consecutive off-topic posts. PLEASE go talk in a projector forum.
Come on guys--SIX consecutive off-topic posts. PLEASE go talk in a projector forum.OK - but I thought I was trying to figure out the way to get the best possible sound out of my Super 7's in my room in the Super 7 Thread, dealing with the circumstances that I have.
How about this deal: They quit talking about his room on this thread if you quit using large, bold font. Deal?
Buh-bye Mills M-Resist Supreme (a nice resistor, actually) and HELLO Path Audio copper resistor:
OK, so you got to tell us if you're hearing any sonic differences after installing these resistors.
NO. What's off-topic about highly readable fonts?
Tyson-
Thanks for posting about the improvement made by tightening the Neo mounting screws. One or two mentioned tightening them but did not state whether it resulted in the same kind of improvement I got. I did not tighten any screw more than maybe 1/8 of a turn. Wondered if anyone else had the same experience.
Since the tightness of the mounting screws makes so much difference and since MDF doesn’t stand up to repetitive loosening and tightening, would installing threaded inserts for mounting the drivers be appropriate?
Mike
Since the tightness of the mounting screws makes so much difference and since MDF doesn’t stand up to repetitive loosening and tightening, would installing threaded inserts for mounting the drivers be appropriate?You might look into using super glue added to pre drilled then dried holes. Works well
Mike
You might look into using super glue added to pre drilled then dried holes. Works well
Alan
I think to consolidate MDF fibers in threaded screw holes in finished speakers it would be best to lay on back and apply with a toothpick, a small artist's brush or similar. Don't want to fill hole, but sort of line the interior wall. A little goes a long way.How about just applying some glue (superglue? Wood Glue? Gorilla Glue?) to the threads of the screw and allowing it to "Drip" down the threads, then screwing it back in?
Medex is MDF, albeit a more highly refined variant. I suspect nearly all MDF and HDF is NAUF (no additional urea-formaldehyde) rated now. That ship sailed some years ago in the US.
http://www.roseburg.com/Product/medex/
How about just applying some glue (superglue? Wood Glue? Gorilla Glue?) to the threads of the screw and allowing it to "Drip" down the threads, then screwing it back in?
When I originally tightened down the screws on the S7's after they arrived, I thought about using glue to keep them from loosening again, but that was my concern - if I ever needed to remove/replace a Driver in the future, how much damage would that cause?
This would seem to me a workable plan. Wood glue or even Elmer's glue would be my preference, maybe even thin it a bit with water. I'd view this as light duty thread locker, but one really doesn't want to solidly glue screw in place as it would likely bring threads with it should it ever need removal. Then you'd have an even bigger problem.
I think to consolidate MDF fibers in threaded screw holes in finished speakers it would be best to lay on back and apply with a toothpick, a small artist's brush or similar. Don't want to fill hole, but sort of line the interior wall. A little goes a long way.
Medex is MDF, albeit a more highly refined variant. I suspect nearly all MDF and HDF is NAUF (no additional urea-formaldehyde) rated now. That ship sailed some years ago in the US.
http://www.roseburg.com/Product/medex/
When I originally tightened down the screws on the S7's after they arrived, I thought about using glue to keep them from loosening again, but that was my concern - if I ever needed to remove/replace a Driver in the future, how much damage would that cause?
Locktite?
After tightening the screws on the midrange, I had to turn up the bass to rebalance the subjective sound. Then I realized that was kind of half-assed, so out comes the measuring tools (a cool FFT program) and I spent some time over the last 2 days dialing in my midrange/bass integration. I'm glad I did it because a few things became obvious that were not obvious before.
First, my right speaker is too damn close to the wall. Created a suckout in the 150-300 hz range. So I moved the speaker away from the wall.
Next, the phase, crossover settings and EQ settings vary a fair bit between my left speaker and my right. For my left speaker, phase is "13 clicks from 180 degrees", hehe. And all EQ focused on a 60hz room mode bass hump (which dialed it down nicely). For my right speaker, phase is set to zero and no EQ is needed. Crazy.
I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller). I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color. The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.
I got both of them glued up and the first one has about 3 coats of spray-grade duratex (applied with a roller). I'm going to spray paint the sides a greyish-aluminum color. The white is just Zinsser B-I-N shellac base primer.
The goal is something like jeffreybehr's pair see here --> https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60 (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99243.60).
I am able to get a duller, close up reflective finish with a bit of effort without fail each time I have practiced on a spare piece of mdf.
Looks great so far! Hopefully, you'll be able to make a lot of progress during this extended weekend.
Tyson,
Want to try something radical? Remove the LCR network in front of the midrange. Danny put in in there to compensate for some peak or dip because of the size of the panels/wings.......however, more parts usually mucks up the sound. You could measure first and then listen......then remove the network (just detach the chain anywhere along the path) and listen again......then measure again....and let us know what you hear/measure. A flatter frequency response is nice....but I will take more transparency and slightly off measurements any day over perfect measurements and less transparency. I have never done this so it would be interesting for all of us. Certainly would only take a few minutes to do. I have been using a single Neo 10 and Neo 3 on an open baffle for years and it only needs a cap and coil on each driver to get super flat response.....no resistors, no network....very transparent.
Maybe adding a thick felt pad between the midranges would tame this.
Tyson,
Not to go too far off topic...but what software / hardware do you use for room measurement?
Thanks Danny, I did scrape it off and soldered it on
Finished up and in audio room now. I have a bass suckout in my audio room I need to figure out. 12.5' w x 19.5' long x 8' tall. I have bass traps in the corners, diffusers on front and back wall and combo diffusers,absorbers on the side walls. When I was testing them in my 3 car garage they had tremendous bass even with the garage door open they were vibrating my tools hanging on the opposite wall. Moved into the room the bass seems to really be subdued. I just have the speakers setting on the carpet with no spikes, maybe that is part of the problem.
The mids and highs sound incredible compared to my VMPS/ RMX speakers. My girlfriend who has no knowledge of audio terminology said " Sounds like there is more air in the room if that makes sense"
Thanks Early B. What did you end up for a solution? Hopefully not moving to a different room.
I will try a few things tonight. I dont have REW but I have omni-mic. I have 2 traps on the front wall, one on the back corner and one corner is open to a closet. They are GIK tri-traps with diffuser plates. The reason I am thinking its the room is before I had the VMPS/RMX speakers and 2 additional HSU 15" subs and still had little bass.
Bringing things back on topic. In my quest to remove ALL non-copper parts from the signal path and replace them with better quality copper parts, I've gotten one of the last major pieces removed and replaced - the RESISTORS in the crossover.
Buh-bye Mills M-Resist Supreme (a nice resistor, actually) and HELLO Path Audio copper resistor:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196109)
Tyson,
Can you post a close up of your crossover and list all of your upgrades.
TIA,
Steve
Any observations about a break-in period? How many hours do you have on them?
I would like to thank Tyson for being the one that convinced me to purchase the super 7 kit. After reading his RMAF reports over the years and saying he didnt hear anything he could replace his Super 7s with I was a bit skeptical. Who knows if this will get me off the speaker merry go round but these are by far the best speakers I have owned. It took me a while with an audio buddy to get them set up properly but now they are simply amazing to me. Too be able to hear textured bass is a luxury I didnt have before. Everything Tyson has said about the speakers is true.
Sure thing - here's a recent pic of the now-crazy amount of copper I have in the Super 7s:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196734)
Hey Danny, I noticed someone earlier in the thread had replaced their Erse 56uf caps with 2 smaller 27uf caps in parallel. Will that cause problems? Cause 27x2 = 54 uf not 56uf. Should they add an extra 2uf cap in parallel in order to get to the full 56 uf value?
In a notch filter like that it isn't going to shift things around too much.
What about having 2 of the 27 uF caps and bypassing them with a .47uf cap? That would get closer to the 56uf value, or is .47 too large for a bypass in this position?
Or, put another way - what's the rule of thumb for bypass caps? No more than 10% of the main cap value? Or 5%? Or 1%? I know at a certain point you run into phase issues if you make them too big, but I'm not sure that point is.
Holy crap,, the rest of my household is gone for a few days so... it is official S7 "through their paces" night.... wow. New gear ( portotypes) but lots of fun and pretty dam loud.... will try and post some pics later :)
jay
They performed well, we through everything at them from an early am listen to a a Vivaldi violin session to a late night "in room " performance by Black Sabbath ( LOL) with the Japenese mastered version of Paranoid".at much higher than my normal listening level !!! Ended up being a 12 hour listening session so there were lots of genre's stops along the way.
Mivera dropped by so we got to spend the afternoon/evening with a prototype of his upcoming Pure Music which was powered with a pair of the new Purifi modules. Sounded really damn good!!.
Tyson, I can't recall where you are but at some point, you need to get up to Danny's or someone closer who has some NX - Oticas to hear them, I think you'll be surprised. I'd honestly have a tough time choosing one over the other, the S7's are faster and I'd say a bit more detailed in the mid's, plus, they've got the built in subs which is really nice for some people. The Otica's are a bit more "rich" sounding if that makes sense and probably image slightly better..... I don't have them here any longer so can't do a/b's . I'd give the edge tothe Otica's on the lower mid bass/upper low bass .... not by much, the Neo10's and dual 12's mate up really well once you get them dialed in.
jay
I did hear the Mockingbird Audio line arrays, which I think used the same drivers as the NX-Oticas, yes?
I'll answer this one.
No, everything is different.
Tyson, if it wasn't so darn hot here I'd do that ( try the tubes).... have access to the K&K 6C33C SET mono's. Maybe when it cools off we'll throw them in for a bit... won't have to turn my furnace on until January :)
jay
AKLegal, part of why the Super 7s have such great depth and layering is that the backwave coming off the Neo drivers is exactly the same as the front wave. That's not possible with cone speakers because the cone is concave for the front wave and convex for the rear wave. Seems like a small thing, but when you're at this level, small things matter :)
Got a question --
Since the Neo10 is out of stock, is there any way to design a similar Super 7 using Neo8's and adding Danny's M165NQ drivers to fill in the lower octaves until a servo sub can take over? Just trying to get 99% of the Super 7 sound based on available stock.
May be a long shot, but figured I'd give it a try...
Also, with the H360 integrated having 250 watts, you'll never run out of power!
You might consider getting rid of the TV and getting a projector instead. It'll help with that 5% extra disappearing act for the speakers.
Alfonso, man, those look great, really nice job man.
I know it was a bit of wait getting everything finalized in this kit but so happy to see your results. Would love it you threw up a couple of your pics inthe S7 flat pack thread so guys can see what they can do with some hard work.
Enjoy your speakakers :thumb: :thumb:
jay
AKLegal, one other thing you might try is to move the speakers a bit wider and toe them in just slightly. I find the best imaging/soundstage is with them fairly wide and toed in so that the plane of the inside panel of the speaker lines up with my eyes/ears. Seems like a small change, but in my room, it changed the imaging from 'great' to 'cavernous'.
Tyson, you talked me into trying some Miflex caps to replace my Sonicap bypass caps on my X-overs. How long did yours take to burn in? I usually allow min 200hr .
I have about 210 hrs on the caps and they sound great. More subtle detail and the separation is more distinct, with each instrument and voice in its very own space. My system was very engaging before and these caps took it up a couple of notches. I still hear a very slight edge on some female voices, but it’s fading fast.
Tyson, thank you for the recommendation, you were right about them.
The only part of the X-over I’ve not up graded is the notch filter, Tyson have you up graded it? If so with what and what were your results”
I have sonicaps with sonicap bypass cap on the filter. Do you think the Clarity caps would be an upgrade? I think I’ll try the MiFlex bypass and AudioPath resistors at the very least. Did you change the coil?
I’m using the Alpha Core coils and found them to be nice. Where did you get the AudioPath resistors and what are their values.
I also have three or four other customers that I have told me that they made those same A/B comparisons and did not like the Jantzens inductors at all.
I am pretty sure there is a lot of variance in the purity of the Copper from batch to batch. Some are good and some are bad.
The company that recently made the Copper Caps are working on a wax paper based inductor using high quality Copper. I look forward to checking them out.
If it works out, I am very interested in getting some.
I've got about 275 hrs on the Milflex bypass caps and the edge on female voice is gone, now their smooth as silk and everything just keeps sounding better.
I’ve got it and I have it bad, upgrade fever and it’s all Tysons fault. :thumb: Those Milflex sound so good I have to try more.
I’m adding Milflex bypass caps and Path Audio resistors to the notch filter and replacing my speaker cable, rewiring my X-over and rewiring my speakers all with Neotech gold/silver wire. I got a good price on the wire in a group buy, I was going to use it in a dac and amp that got canceled.
I hope to get it all made up and burned in by the time my new all in one streamer, dac and amp shows up next month.
The wire is great, it has a wonderful tone and i'm sure that you'll love it, as well as the dac/amp, I've been lucky enough to listen to it 4 or 5 times during it's development and you are in for a treat. It sounds so right that I actually have a tough time telling folks how good it really is, i'm hoping to hear the final version within the next couple of weeks but I can say with almost certainty that you will love it with your speakers.
Cheers,
Don
I'm familiar with the wire, I wired my present amp with it. I keep hearing great things about that new compo set up but as good as my system sounds now, it's not real to me that it can get that much better, but so for his gear has been as good or better than he's claimed, so I'm ready to have my reality broken. :o
It looks like the NEO 10s are almost going to be double the cost of what they were when they are available again. Sure glad I got my speakers earlier. I still think they are the best money I have ever spent on audio.Nice, I was a day late to the party. 😣
I put a lot of stuff on hold to get mine while the price was still right. I've waited on too many deals only to have it go away at some point.I’m a big fan of the Dennis Had ‘Inspire’ amps. Particularly the single ended pentode mate well with the Super 7 and they also give you a ton of tube rolling options.
Now if I can just find a great amp at a reasonable price.
I put a lot of stuff on hold to get mine while the price was still right. I've waited on too many deals only to have it go away at some point.
Now if I can just find a great amp at a reasonable price.
Still worth it though. Even at the increased cost, nothing touches the Super 7s, IME. For example, this past year at RMAF, I listened to every major room that had full range speaker setups. The best room was the Prana Fidelity fully active setup, but it was $35k. And it was close to the Super 7s in some regards, but in most areas the Super 7s are clearly better. Having the Super 7s at home makes going to shows like RMAF kind of no fun, lol.
Thats ridiculous they have doubled the price on the driver, hopefully Danny comes thru soon.
Danny -- can you give us a few more details on what you're working on?? Will your pricing for comparable Neo10's be much more reasonable?
We know this kind of stuff takes time and you're probably reluctant to reveal too much too soon, but even a liberal ballpark estimate on the possibility of working something out would be helpful. A friend wants to build the Super 7's, but he won't wait forever.
Let's just say that I have tested some samples, and they were off the mark a bit. I am having some changes made and having the diaphragm damped more like the original BG version. I am also going to make a change that I had made to our planar tweeters. I am going to have high purity Copper terminals used instead of having them made from Tin (or whatever).
I await samples.
I’m about to upgrade all the wiring in my system and replace my streamer, dac, amp with an all in one. Now I have a low pass on my sub out that is in between my dac and amp that feeds a Iso Max that feeds my subs.
In my new set up this won’t work, so I was going to either eliminate the low pass all togather or use some Fmod attenuators inline with the subs. Do I need the low pass? If I use the Fmods what frequency should I use and does it matter if they are plugged into the Iso Max or into the sub amps?
I’m a big fan of the Dennis Had ‘Inspire’ amps. Particularly the single ended pentode mate well with the Super 7 and they also give you a ton of tube rolling options.
These look really great. Sadly the whole whole eBay bidding situation pushes them out of my price range. Maybe if I can sell my current amps. It never ends.
I’m about to upgrade all the wiring in my system and replace my streamer, dac, amp with an all in one. Now I have a low pass on my sub out that is in between my dac and amp that feeds a Iso Max that feeds my subs.
In my new set up this won’t work, so I was going to either eliminate the low pass all togather or use some Fmod attenuators inline with the subs. Do I need the low pass? If I use the Fmods what frequency should I use and does it matter if they are plugged into the Iso Max or into the sub amps?
I also run my super 7s with a full signal going to the panels. Never had any issues.Ah yes, but with fairly low power (I think). I'd be a bit more concerned with larger amps.
Your right Jay, pretty bad when some eles know your system better than you. :lol: Thanks
Ah yes, but with fairly low power (I think). I'd be a bit more concerned with larger amps.
Ah yes, but with fairly low power (I think). I'd be a bit more concerned with larger amps.
I run mine full signal to the panels from a Hegel H360. I'd be more concerned with clipping from a low power amp than any danger from a higher powered one. Youd be super hard pressed to find an amp that would clip while driving the Super 7s though.
I'm starting upgrades to my system and one upgrade is to replace my Mills resistors in my x-over with a PathAudio ones. I just unpacked the PathAudio ones and see there is an extra wire coming out of it, what does it connect to?
Are your silver cables solid core or stranded? Also, what guage and insulation type? Just curious.
I was considering wiring mine with 3’ runs of Kimber 12TC. Well, I was when I was working. Have to find a job before I can do anything new to my rig.
Burning in some of the new copper caps being offered at GR Research here. (https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=165854.0)
Started with the high pas filter, have them bypasses with Miflex coppers as well.
Getting close to 100 hrs, letting them play continuously.
Could hear the potential right out of the gate, more dtail and depth but they were "crsipy" , not overly enjoyable.
Seem to be improving quite a bit now... need some more hours
jay
Built a new crossover. More detail is the immediate result. Have to get some hours on it now.
Jupiter capacitors, Miflex bypass capacitors and Jantzen inductors.
Steve
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=201232)
I could never find those large gauge Jantzen wax foils in stock anywhere. I ended up going with some Mundorfs.
I could never find those large gauge Jantzen wax foils in stock anywhere. I ended up going with some Mundorfs.
I just upgrade my Super7s. I rewired the hi and mids with Neotech Gold/Silver wire covered in Techflex , ( what a PITA the Techflex is to work with, won’t use that agin ) and replaced the bypass caps and resistors on the notch filters with Miflex caps and PathAudio resistors.
I also made a new set of speaker cables using a combination of Neotech Gold/Silver and Neotech Silver wire covered in cotton sleeving.
OK Tyson you twisted my arm. :lol: I listen to 5 songs that I’m very familiar with and my first impressions are:
There is more detail and it’s cleaner and more defined. The sound stage got bigger and more filled in and a little wider with nicer separation. I kind of expected the above to some degree but what I found surprising was the mid bass has much more impact.
I’ll let it burn in a couple of more days and report back.
so I cut the grill frames for my super 7s in half and just covered the woofer section. I like the way it looks.
Awesome, thanks for sharing, Tyson. Congrats on the improvements.
Any specifics on the silver wire you used? Gauge, purity, brand, etc?
Seems like I remember reading somebody here who's had their Rythmik Servo Amps modded by either Folsom or Ric Schultz, though IIRC those mods were component mods/changes/upgrades rather than wire upgrades.
Seems like I remember reading somebody here who's had their Rythmik Servo Amps modded by either Folsom or Ric Schultz, though IIRC those mods were component mods/changes/upgrades rather than wire upgrades.
Yeah, here it is: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145931.msg1561304#msg1561304
Sort of.... Neo 10's are currently unavailable but Danny is working on a replacmement.
Working along with Danny, we designed a flat pack for the Super 7's . Danny was selling the electronics side until the Neo 10 shortage.
I posted some pics of the first/prototype pair late in this thread
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159096.0
There are a few pics in this (current) thread as well of a couple pairs that were built out by customers
jay
Assuming the Neo10 wil become available in the next few months, what would be the price of the super7 kit including flat pack and no rez ? (approximately).
Thanks
Tyson - you are a Mad Man!
Waaaaaay beyond my skill set.......but I like the idea! :bowdown:
Put another way, treat the subs as high end pieces the same way that you do your main amps and you'll be rewarded with much better sound.
Tyson, what gauge wire did you use for the servo output leads ?
jay
I didn’t mean to say the 7’s aren’t highly resolving. They absolutely are. What I mean is that they sound great even with a $500 home theater receiver. As in they don’t require a super high end system to sound great. I’m sure with better gear they’ll sound even better.
I didn’t mean to say the 7’s aren’t highly resolving. They absolutely are. What I mean is that they sound great even with a $500 home theater receiver. As in they don’t require a super high end system to sound great. I’m sure with better gear they’ll sound even better.
Are there (4) NEO10's in each Super-7 Speaker? Thanks!
Given how high the Neo3 is from the floor in the Super 7, has anyone here experimented with leaning your speakers forward? At my listening postion my ears are about at the level of the very bottom Neo10 and I sit about 10 feet from my speakers. I angled each of my speakers forward by putting a 1 inch wide 3/4 inch thick piece of mdf under the rear edge. The sound was immediately fuller, more focused and detailed.I think it would depend on the height of your ears in your Primary Listening Position to some degree.
I am not sure why it took me so long to try this given that I built in a 1/2 inch foward lean into the NX-Ottica monitors (I was a bit anxious about this coming from the shorter Super V's with tweeters just a hair lower than my ears). So I never really heard the NX-Otticas without a forward lean.
Anyway, if you have a low seat and you sit 11 to 10 feet or less from these amazing speakers this is a cheap enough tweak to try.
Anyway, if you have a low seat and you sit 11 to 10 feet or less from these amazing speakers this is a cheap enough tweak to try.
Hmmmm.... I don't have Super 7's. Nevertheless, I just measured my tweeter height and it's 48" vs. 38" ear height and I sit 11 feet away from the speakers. I'm gonna try this tonight and report back.
I'm getting ready to go full active with my system and have a question on feeding my sub. I will have only a single out for my sub, will I need a Y splitter or can I just go into one RCA on my Rythmik amp?
Sorry Jay, I wasn't clear I'm talking about my sealed sub, which is fed off the 7's sub amp outs now, but will have its' own feed completely active. The subs in the 7's will be fed stereo.
You will probably see less benefit since your speakers are tweeter-midrange where as the super 7 is mtm.
So can I feed the mono signal into one RCA in or do I need a Y adaptor?
OK, here's my quick assessment --
I lifted the rear of my speakers about one-half inch and used Barbra Streisand's, "You Don't Bring Me Flowers" as my test track. Immediately, the imaging was improved, and when Neil Diamond cuts in, his voice is much deeper. No question about it. I said to myself, "that's gotta be all in my head." So I went back and forth. The difference was clear. Then I put on a few tracks that I'm more familiar with and can't say definitively it made a difference, but I didn't go back and forth with those songs. I heard enough to keep the rear of the speakers slightly elevated.
Thanks, mlundy57
Give me a couple of months and I might be able to get you the same wax film on a four 9's pure Copper foil made in the USA. All in the works right now.
I’m so glad I jumped on these kits when I had the chance!I'm jealous!
Jeffrey-
Good to hear from this thread's originator.
I am working on improving the bass in my system and room. Did you make any further changes to improve your bass since you posted in 2016?
Did you find installing the large bass traps in the upper left-hand wall and upper rear wall to be worth the cost and effort?
Asking as I am strongly considering large bass traps.
I have already optimized everything I can think of to do to the servo-amps including wiring, isolation, and control adjustments. I am convinced the highest likely hood of bass improvement lies with either passive or active bass traps or EQ unit instead of the PEQ controls, which I find only slightly effective.
And as long as we are discussing improvements for the Super-7s the number one improvement I have made for the speakers is hands down installing Townshend Seismic Bars under the speakers. Better improvement than all the upgraded crossover components, rewiring the servo-amps, etc. that I have done.
The First Watt J2s and the Super-7s, which hadn't been running for about 2 years, are still breaking in, and the system sounds better each day.
Found and ordered today a pair of Atma-Sphere M-60s, version III.3 with V-Caps and the power-supply boost.. Those pure-triode signal paths do indeed call to me.
Have you tried any 2a3 or 300b amps with your Super 7's? I have and they are pretty magical (and go pretty loud, actually).
How about a pair of these? :D
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers
How about a pair of these? :D
https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers (https://www.westernelectric.com/97a-monoblock-amplifiers)
I heard the 10E's and thought they were very good (better than the Martin Logan stuff Sanders used to design for). The only 2 drawbacks I saw were 1, a very narrow soundstage due to their flat panel design, and 2, the inability to run lower powered tube amps.
I hate to be that guy but :wink: "I was trading e-mails with Roger Sanders, manufacturer of the Eros Mk.III electrostatic (ESL) loudspeakers, when it occurred to me to ask him about his name. I was struck that he had the same last name as Gayle Sanders, president of another American electrostatic speaker company, MartinLogan. Were they related? "No," replied Roger Sanders, "it's simply a coincidence that we have similar names. I've never even met him. "
https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html (https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/819/index.html)
Roger Sanders = Sanders Sound Systems (Previously Innersound)
Gayle (Martin) Sanders = Martin Logan
Ron (Logan) Sutherland = Martin Logan
Do the super 7's use neo 8's or neo 10's?
Each speaker used four Neo 10's.
Can anyone tell me whether the resistor in the Super-7 passive crossover is in the signal path to the Neo-3 driver?
The Allnic A-6000 50-Watt, SET monoamps were ordered this week and the bank transfer was done today..
They're also graced with an XLR input to accommodate those of us who use only balanced cables.
Should be here by end of August.
That looks like a very nice amp. Congrats.
I wonder about the XLR input though. From the photos in the 6 moons review, it sort of looks like only one phase of the balanced connection is used, but it's not the sharpest photo so I could easily be missing something. I took a look at it to see if they were using a transformer, but didn't see anything. It could be that the shielded input cable that goes from the input connectors to the input circuit is actually a balanced cable, but it doesn't look like it too me. Perhaps there is an option to add an input transformer.
At any rate, beautiful amp.
TY and TY.
"... it sort of looks like only one phase of the balanced connection is used".. I expect that's correct; I'll know in a couple weeks.. But that makes sense, as it's a single-ended amp and has no 'use' for the negative-polarity half of the balanced signal.
It looks like there is plenty of room to add an input transformer on the XLR inputs. If you are using a balanced preamp, you might consider seeing if they will add one for you. I am using a Jensen transformer in my 300B PSET amps and it sounds great.
I think you are getting a little confused. The amplifier MUST use the negative wave, otherwise you have a rectifier (half wave at this point). Keep in mind a single ended signal carries the full signal (positive and negative) on one line. I would think that if you connected a balanced output from a pre or DAC via a true balanced cable, you are going to have problems. Are the Allnic pre outs true balanced or are they cheating there?
Have REdecided NOT to buy the 120VAC H-6000s in Virginia since I already have a pair (of 230VAC versions) and I now do not wish to pursue the Emission Labs 300Bs, which, with a filament-suppy-resistor change, makes the A-6000s' max power 60 Watts.. Will send my pair to Sonic Craft for repair and upgrades.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=245174)
...
Probably will size the coupling caps for an HP filter point of around 50Hz; I've never used an HP filter on the panels except with a 250WPC poweramp.
Jeffrey
Your 10 Sep 2022 post mentioned "incoming AudioKinesis stereo SWARM subwoofer-system amps."
Just wondering if you have received it yet. Any impressions?