Wow, windows.....

TheChairGuy · « **on:** 30 Dec 2003, 07:48 pm »

...really suck for audio.

This may be common enough knowledge for many of you, but my eyes are wide open to it now.

My listening room is 12 x 16" with arched ceilings from 8 to 11'. The room works for me, I don't typically need much volume to enjoy music.

I knew when I moved here a year or so ago to put lots of rugs about (floor, and behind equipment) and this was a BIG help. It took a while to cover the windows with drapes...and it not only looks better in here (moderately important), it keeps it much warmer in winter (Cali 50 degreee ones, at least), but everything is much clearer soundwise.

My window problem may have been excessive as this room is wide open with about 40% of wall space either covered with tall windows, windowed door and mirrored sliding closet doors. It's got some great views, but it's real bad for audio purposes.

I read one of the best selling and effective tweaks at Music Direct is the Marigo Tuning Dots specifically for windows. The dots are nothing more than constraned layer damping in different sized neat, round dots. I think 4 strategically placed constrained layer dots on each window pane and mirror surface (let's see, 5 windows, 2 mirrored doors x 4 dots = 28 friggin' dots total) of my own making should further tame backwaves and resonances from the windows further.

I think I have my next cheapo/effective project lined up now....ordered the Cascade brand constrained layer pads last week.

I always thought I'd end up in a padded cell.....

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Dec 2003, 03:31 pm »

Allright, so I got my Parts Express shipment that included the Cascade Audio Engineering constrained layer damping pads (2 12 x 30" pads at .060 thick).

I cut 28 30mm (3cm or about 1.25") square 'dots' and placed them carefully in each corner of each window and mirrored surface. I played tunes for about an hour afterwards.

The effect? Nada, nil, zilch, goose egg, zero. As far as I can hear.

Marigo/Music Direct charges $69.00 for a set of these to treat a bunch of windows. Friggin' whooey. The large CAE pads were $32.00 or so and I used, maybe, $3.00 worth. At least my tweek didn't hurt the wallet...only dented my fleeting grasp on reality.

I've found with tweeks and changes to the system, if I don't hear the effects immediately as noticeable...I'm probably reaching to hear it and there is no effect at all.

I'll leave them there and tinker a bit more, but unless I drink tonite, the sound won't be a changin' due to any magic dots. Magic sake, maybe.

mgalusha · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Dec 2003, 04:19 pm »

At least they weren't expensive. I have wondered how/if they would work. In my mind even if they damped some of the resonance at a particular frequency, the big sheet of glass is still highly reflective. Perhaps you can use any left over material for chassis damping on some piece of equipment.

Happy New Year and dont' drink too much of the magic sake.

mike g

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Dec 2003, 07:43 pm »

Mike,

Yeah, little cash outlayed on that one. I Caig'ed my power connections at the same time as I dotted my windows and still heard nada.

However.....I snipped off a few (6) small pieces (maybe 12 x 12mm) and found a few places on my Sony DVP-S7700 tray to apply them (replacing non-constrained vinyl damping which I heard no difference with). The difference is really there...the bass is quite a bit more solid than before and ,overall, a bit clearere window into the music. I have the volume set a bit higher than usually for daytime as I must be enjoying the clearer tunes.

So, windows - don't waste your moola.

DVD/CD trays (and maybe other places)...this stuff (constrained layer damping) really works.

mgalusha · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Dec 2003, 11:21 pm »

Chair Guy,

Nice to know some benefit was had from the purchase. I added some chunks of Dynamat Extreme to my Philips and it seemed to provide a bit more clarity and focus. There are some pieces on the transport in a similar fashion to what you did.

Last week I cut some maple side panels for my preamp to dress it up a bit. I _think_ it sounds a little better as well. Of course this may be builders desire but in this case it's certainly possible. Tube pre with a thin sheetmetal case - a reduction in chassis resonance and thus tube vibration should be a good thing. I think the bass is tighter and the image focus has improved a bit.

mike g

Ernest · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Jan 2004, 01:09 am »

I also have a lot of window space in my listening room and I used the Marigo Audio tuning dots to good effect. A review is either here or on Harmonic Discord. I had to put 4 dots on each corner of each window, so the expense was a bit higher than I wanted (I think around $400). But it made a very noticable improvement.

eichlerera1 · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jan 2004, 03:40 pm »

ChairGuy:
I have the same "excess window" problem. I believe the use of an Argent RoomLens type of solution could help alleviate the problem. Check out the review at 6Moons.

The price for these pups are a bit outrageous ($960.00 for three). It consists of some PVC pipe stuffed with fiberglass. Because of this, many tweakers are building their own. I know I'm going to give it a whirl. Check out the following site for DIY plans.(GREAT SITE). http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index.htm
Paul G

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jan 2004, 06:36 pm »

Wow guys, $400 or $960 isn't a tweek anymore - that's component costs to me. I make a good living, but there are dead presidents (not to mention, dead Treasury Secretary's) screaming in my pockets regularly! Can you say, I'm a CHEAP ASS!

The question to ask is was it worth that amount of money spent or could it have been spent more wisely elsewhere?

I suppose my outcome could've been due to a few factors, too:

1. Did I apply the homebrew dots in the right place (I put them in each corner of each window or mirrored glass door)?

2. Were they of the right material (mine were .060" from Cascade Audio Engineering)...perhaps there is better/more effective/thicker available?

3. My system is modest (at least next to Ernest's gear I see), so maybe I don't have the resolution to hear the differences that the dots may have made.

4. I smoked too much pot and listened to Pink Floyd loud too often a decade ago or more? My ears now suck?

5. I travel a lot by plane and my ears suck.

I'm not really being completely facetious with #4 and 5, they could be possibilities

BTW Mike - do try the Herbie's Tube Dampers if you haven't already. I did on my (cheap casework) Dynaco PAS-4 and they took away so much tube grunge/distortion that I realized that it was most of what I liked about using tubes! I now use IRD's Purist. Be forewarned - they do exactly as intended, too much sometimes, tho.

eichlerera1 · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jan 2004, 07:16 pm »

If you have big windows, I find it hard to fathom how a few dots in the corners would have any appreciable effect.

I try to get the most bang for my buck too.
Like I said, build three lenses yourself for pennies on the dollar.

The DIY directions on the website are quite clear.
Paul G

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Jan 2004, 07:38 pm »

PaulG,

Just looked at the site - very good suggestions there on a range of topics. Thanks!

ABEX · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Jan 2004, 07:41 pm »

Man,you guys are in another league if you can spend that much on tweeks.

I am not a tweek freak,but when I hear something simple that I can try I usaually do it. Cannot remember when I actually bought a tweek. The better homemade tweeks are well worth trying.One tweek that cost nothing is to try stacking your components in another order if stacked.

I had the stock feet on my Phillips ,I tried Supper Balls under that which seemed to help.

Granite Slabs under floorstanders help.

I created a folder for Tweeks that have been said to work that I shall try sometime.

http://www.audiotweaks.com/collection_descend.htm

Good luck!

http://www.audiotweaks.com/collection_descend.htm