Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!

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Guy 13

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #20 on: 6 Nov 2012, 08:17 am »
Here is a better picture of the Monolith baffles and one of the amp enclosures:




Hi HAL and all Audio Circle members.

This is a project that I will follow very closely,
because it's the kind of project that I think is close to what I want.

By the way, in the future do you think all crossovers will be done via computers ?
I hope not, for me anyway !

Guy 13
 

jcotner

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #21 on: 6 Nov 2012, 08:56 am »
The DSP board that I am using is about 27 times the throughput of a Cray 1 supercomputer from back in the day.  Today that amount of floating point  throughput is available at what I would call a reasonable price.

Amazing vs. just not too many years ago.
The TI C67 series does the 2100 Mflops you mention for around $10 or less.
I2C so it's easy to interface to the A/D D/A chain.
Analog Devices has similar parts.
I remember doing filters with an Analog Devices Multiplier.
Stuff like Code Composer makes this a whole lot easeir.
Sounds like a very fun project.

You could reduce computational demands by pre-processing the
driver and sub audio into seperate files then maybe you could get this
into a part that already has a USB section and not have to jack
around with an A/D. A lot of ARM cores can nearly do this sort
of thing.
Just some late night rambling.  Good luck.

JohnR

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #22 on: 6 Nov 2012, 09:20 am »
Heh, well, 35 years in computing is a looong time... an iPad 4 is almost equal to 10 supercomputers by that measure: http://www.barefeats.com/ipad402.html :)

I am curious why you are using a DSP board rather than doing it in the server? (I had assumed it would be the latter.)

JLM

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #23 on: 6 Nov 2012, 11:08 am »
Please refer to driver properly as full extended range.  If truly full range it certainly wouldn't need (3)! woofers.  My Bob Brines mass loaded transmission line FTA-2000 with a single $400+ Fostex F200A (not your typical Fostex driver for sure) is rated 27 - 20,000 Hz, 109 dB peaks in room.  With Behringer DEQ2496 for baffle step and speaker/room EQ and EnABL treatments it is about as close to full range, general use speaker available (not saying they're perfect).

Lumping bass units with the extended range unit is the absolute #1 mistake made by speaker developers.  In room standing waves cause massive sound pressure variations based on frequency and location (think waves in a bath tub).  Have you considered a swarm/DEBRA type of solution (search here at AC) as per Floyd Toole, et al?

HAL

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #24 on: 6 Nov 2012, 11:35 am »
Thanks for the feedback and well wishes!

Will try to answer the questions in order as best as possible.

The advantage of this idea for a full range driver in an extended range speaker is to have a single point source with flat response for the vocal range and up.  Open baffle to get rid of box coloration for the full range driver and open baffle servo's for extended low frequency response with less room loading for bass mode excitation.   

The digital crossover software is capable of being run on the Music Server in realtime.  The issue is getting all the D/A converter channels time aligned properly.  This is still an option that can be explored, but for this product will be a stand alone crossover chassis to feed the amps and speakers.

Adding a SWARM subwoofer setup is always possible with The Monolith speaker.  The concept was used at RMAF with the Super-V's last year with very good results.  Keeping one set of subs in the main speaker will help with keeping the center image stable as they will be crossed over at the low end of the vocal range. 

Yeah, I am old and use old references for signal processing.  Worked on a project one time using a CRAY supercomputer at a facility.  Cool machine!


jparkhur

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #25 on: 6 Nov 2012, 12:25 pm »
Has a prototype for these speakers actually been made/heard yet?

Cool concept, how tall are they?

Yes the prototype is done and there are actually a couple out there. I have been listening to mine minus the most important part... Super computer.  I am really looking forward to the digital xo

stevenkelby

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #26 on: 6 Nov 2012, 12:28 pm »
Cool :) What's the approx height on them?

jparkhur

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #27 on: 6 Nov 2012, 12:31 pm »
Cool :) What's the approx height on them?
Good ear height sitting.  Middle of driver is ~ 37 inches

stevenkelby

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #28 on: 6 Nov 2012, 12:32 pm »
Sounds great, thank you :)

jparkhur

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #29 on: 6 Nov 2012, 03:01 pm »
HAL, interesting concept.  I notice that the servos are set up on a completely open baffle along with the full range driver; is the output on the full range driver low enough (or the servos together high enough) to not require the same H-frame baffle design Danny has been using in the V1/super-v/super-7, or are you simply increasing the gain on the amp to compensate? 

Also, any thoughts on isolating the vibrations in the baffle from the servos on the full range driver, as I was under the impression that with the amount of movement the servos could deliver, transmitting vibrations could be an issue?




JP, very nice work, as usual!  I really like the look, and engineering the amplifier box to be a counterweight to the driver loaded baffle looks to be a most elegant looking solution.

Danny, is the output of the servos in this configuration enough to work with the top half of the V2, or would the servos need a shallow H-frame as has been discussed in other threads?  I'm pretty sure if the answer was "yes", at the very least Tyson would be looking at his piggy bank with a hammer in hand.  :green:

JJ-yes the top driver, currently a Dayton 8, will match up on output with the lower servos.  You have all the gain control you need and as well each driver will be individually measured before setting up the SC.  You will have the ability, once HAL has everything tight, to use different drivers in the top section to appeal to your preference of music/driver selection .  I like this on many points, but allows me to individually mix and match my tastes easily and economically.  JP

Danny Richie

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #30 on: 6 Nov 2012, 04:12 pm »
Quote
The Feastrex is one of the best speakers I have ever heard, but the drivers were the field coils at about $50k/pair.

Also, Omega is coming out with a line of DIY drivers... their oem drivers are as good as anything out there regardless of price. The Dayton you're using is one of the few full range drivers I haven't been able to listen to yet...

All of those can be implemented into this design.

Danny Richie

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #31 on: 6 Nov 2012, 04:25 pm »
Quote
Lumping bass units with the extended range unit is the absolute #1 mistake made by speaker developers.  In room standing waves cause massive sound pressure variations based on frequency and location (think waves in a bath tub).  Have you considered a swarm/DEBRA type of solution (search here at AC) as per Floyd Toole, et al?

Actually this implementation using open baffle servo controlled woofers is the best possible way to add low bass to a wide band driver. The output of the lower woofers cancel at 90 degrees off axis and they do not load the room like a typical woofer. The room is loaded very evenly and without variations.

The open baffle design also does away with panel resonances that typically plague horn loaded or transmission line designs. So all of that honky sound and buzzing that so many full range driver implementations have are also not present in this design.

And this is not a room EQ system. Room EQ's done in the digital realm simply do not work. You are only correcting for a single point in space when you do that. Move a little in any direction and you might as well start over. This is a correction for the driver. And since the drivers (wide band drivers) are mounted in a small open baffle then they also cancel at 90 degrees off axis. So their effect on the room can also be limited through their lower ranges. Like with all other speakers typical room treatments must be used to handle the upper ranges. They also lack the coloration and disruption of surface reflections (big baffles) that give the playing from the wall sound that really hurts imaging and sound stage depth.

Another big advantage is that this is one of the first true audiophile level (top level) DAC's to use digital correction. Prior to this most digital EQ's (like the Behringer and DEQX systems) are a real bottleneck to the concept. Some like the Behringer really suck the life out of the music. 

SteveRB

Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #32 on: 6 Nov 2012, 08:57 pm »
Those look fantastic -- a lot of potential.

HAL

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #33 on: 6 Nov 2012, 09:32 pm »
Are the crossovers only sold through you?

Yes they will be when completed.

HAL

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #34 on: 6 Nov 2012, 09:37 pm »
Has a prototype for these speakers actually been made/heard yet?

Cool concept, how tall are they?

The speaker baffles you have seen are the units for testing.

The digital crossover prototype hardware is in work.  Waiting on the first unit with the USB audio input.

The concepts we are using have been around for awhile, these are new software tools for trying the techniques. 

The speaker measurements will be made at 24bit/192KHz.  The crossover signal processing will work at that rate.   

archeion

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #35 on: 6 Nov 2012, 09:41 pm »
Sounds interesting.  What kind of timeline are we looking at until completeion Hal?

HAL

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #36 on: 6 Nov 2012, 09:47 pm »
I am waiting on news of the timeline for the crossover board shipment.  It is out of my hands at the moment.  Will keep everyone posted when I know.

jcotner

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #37 on: 7 Nov 2012, 12:31 am »
The digital crossover software is capable of being run on the Music Server in realtime.  The issue is getting all the D/A converter channels time aligned properly.  This is still an option that can be explored, but for this product will be a stand alone crossover chassis to feed the amps and speakers.

The judicious use of threads goes a long ways toward helping with that problem.
Assuming your have some reasonable facsimile of a RTOS (not Windows).
Think latency. You only have to be real time after you fill up the buffers.
You may have considered this but 2 or 3 seconds to spool up can give
you a lot of preprocessing to handle the synchronization issues.

I had to deal with some of these issues when I worked on a DLP project
at TI. If old hat, excuse the redundant information.

HAL

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #38 on: 7 Nov 2012, 12:42 am »
No RTOS for this application.  To make is easy for people it will be running on Windows OS.  So far Windows 7 x64 has done well.  Need to try Windows 8 x64 to see how it works out.

The development software also runs on Windows OS.


jcotner

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Re: Best sounding full range driver speaker ever!
« Reply #39 on: 7 Nov 2012, 12:51 am »
If you don't load it down with crap, the W8 kernel should be more deterministic.
If you're on Windows, big buffers will further add to predictability.
I think Mac OSX is probably better but that is a issue to some.
However a true RTOS is best but understand the motivations.

If you're doing a D/A card anyway, a FPGA or DSP would be great so
you can hide your secret sauce.   :wink: