adding a sub Vandersteen method--"HIGH-PASS OF THE MAIN SPEAKERS"

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **on:** 6 Feb 2015, 09:50 pm »

adding a sub Vandersteen method--"HIGH-PASS OF THE MAIN SPEAKERS"

Fresh from the Vandy blog

"ONE OF THE BIGGEST IMPROVEMENTS ADDING A SUB TO ANY SYSTEM IS THE HIGH-PASS OF THE MAIN SPEAKERS AND AMPLIFIER, THIS MEANS DECREASING THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY REQUIRED OF THE AMPLIFIER AND THE SPEAKER IN THE BASS. THIS PROVIDES A DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT IN TRANSPARENCY AND A MEASURABLE REDUCTION IN DISTORTION IN THE SPEAKERS AND AMPLIFIER. ADDING A SUB WHOSE LOW PASS IS ADJUSTED TO THE FREQUENCY THAT THE MAIN SPEAKER NATURALLY ROLLS OFF WILL ADD BASS BUT DOES NOT REMOVE THE EXCESSIVE WOOFER MOVEMENT (AND AMPLIFIER CURRENT REQUIRED) BELOW CUTOFF. THIS CURRENT AND SUBSONIC MOVEMENT RAISES DISTORTION AND INCREASES CURRENT REQUIRED OF THE MAIN AMPLIFIER NEEDLESSLY. THE RESULT IS THAT THE CROSSOVER LINEARITY BETWEEN THE SUB AND THE MAIN SPEAKER IS MARGINAL AT BEST. THIS IS THE REASON ALL OF OUR MORE EXPENSIVE SPEAKER MODELS (QUATRO, 5A CARBON, AND SEVEN) USE A POWERED BASS SYSTEM ALL IN ONE ENCLOSURE."

"INCREASES CURRENT REQUIRED OF THE MAIN AMPLIFIER "
This is why I can enjoy loud music thru my model 3 powered by my Prima Luna Model 5 with KT120.
less current demands on the PL5

"THE TREO WILL BE NOTICEABLY BETTER (IMAGING, TRANSPARENCY AND SPEED) EVERYWHERE BUT THE BASS. THE 3A SIG WILL HAVE DEEPER BASS THAN THE TREO."
Has any TREO owner partnered a 2WQ yet.

GreenGrass · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Feb 2015, 01:02 am »

I would also benefit from anyone willing to share their experience using a pair of 2wq subwoofers with TREO speakers. I just added my second 2wq to my aging 2Ce speakers, and my next upgrade will most likely be to replace my 2Ce speakers.

JackD · « **Reply #2 on:** 12 Feb 2015, 02:58 am »

The Treo works fine with a pair of Vandersteen subs. I used them that way for almost a year until I sold the Treos the first of the month. With all five of the amps I tried it with it needed to be run with one value lower than the input impedance of the amp.

To GreenGrass if you really like the sound profile of the older Vandersteens you really need to listen to the Treo before just plunking down now almost $7000 for them. They to me are much different than the "classic" Vandersteen sound of the 1,2, and 3's. I kept my 2CE Sigs boxed up the whole time I had the Treo and in the end prefered them. I have owned three different Vandersteens over the course of the last 15 years. If you like the "classic" Vandersteen sound you might want to look at the Odyssey Lorelei or the Nola Contender and pocket the significant difference. Or buy a used pair of 2CE or 3A Sigs. There are always ones on either A'gon or USaudiomart. Just my opinion and others may differ.

GreenGrass · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Feb 2015, 01:37 am »

Thanks JackD. I have heard the Treo's twice. Neither time was ideal, and unfortunately, my local dealer does not carry them. During my second experience, I found the Treo's to be more dynamic and the mid-range more forward than my current speakers. During the short listening session, I found these changes enjoyable. Are these the attributes that you are referring to, or is there something else I should pay attention to during a third listening experience?

Thanks for suggesting other options; I'll give them a look. The cost of new Treo's is steep for my income, and I want to be sure before going forward.

JackD · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Feb 2015, 05:18 am »

The more forward characteristics were what I was referring to, but I found that to extend to the top end to some extent too. That was even with an amp like the Belles that I have always found to be on the warm side of neutral. I thought I liked the changes to start with, but that faded over time. Again that is just me. It is extremely hard to find them used as mine weren't even listed but were sold to an AK member who asked me about them. There are is a dealer on Agon selling a demo pair for a fair price. As Richard continues to raise the list price the used price will go up too.

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Feb 2015, 09:36 pm »

JACKD wrote "I kept my 2CE Sigs boxed up the whole time I had the Treo and in the end prefered them. "

JackD are those 2ce SIGS the ones offered with the new dimpled midrange from the model 5A. I have read Vandersteen is offering updates to the midrange only some of the models and am not sure if the 2ce is included.

"As Richard continues to raise the list price the used price will go up too. "
hey what is up with that Richard.

JackD · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Feb 2015, 12:31 am »

My 2CE Sigs were from the very last revision before they changed over to the series II. They include whatever were the last changes Richard made in 2007. Don't remember exactly what those changes were eight years later.

I suspect new "Marketing Manager" who comes from AudioQuest and S&V magazine has something to do with it. The price increased twice in the year from the time I placed my order to selling.

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Feb 2015, 08:01 pm »

JackD, so then your 2CE Sigs do not have the barrier strip. You still use bannas plubs. And you say you perfer these to the Treo. Well early treos had standard Model 3 sig cones and crossover before being upgraded from there I have read.

JackD · « **Reply #8 on:** 27 Feb 2015, 12:27 am »

2CE's of any type have had barrier strips for quite a long time. Many years before mine were made in early 2007. Treos are nothing more than Quatro Woods without the powered subwoofers.

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Feb 2015, 03:46 pm »

Well JackD if you read the below response from vandersteen's website what it is that you dislike is the increased resolution of the more expensive speakers.

"Q
Bob (12/10/08):Richard, My system is about 15 years old and consists of an Audible Illusions Modulus 3 preamp with new tubes, a Classe' Fifteen power amp, Jolida jd100 tube cd player, Marantz sa8001 sacd player, VPI turntable and Magnum Dynalab Etude tuner. All my interconnects are MIT Terminator 2 and my speaker cables are double runs of MIT Terminator 2. I am using Vandersteen 2ci speakers. Power conditioning is by Shunyata as well as the power cords. The system sounds great although the bass could be just a little bit better. Recently, I bought a pair of 2ce's from my friend for 600.00 for the pair. They are in pristine condition. When I inserted them into my system, the sound got overly bright. Many of my favorite cd's and records sounded etched and listener fatigue set in very early. There is nothing wrong with the speakers, as I brought them to the shop where I bought the 2ci's and verified they worked as they should. I would really like to use the newer speakers in my downstairs room, but after trial and error, I put my 2ci's back into the system and everything sounds wonderful again. The bass in the 2ce's was definitely deeper and tighter, but no matter where I placed the speakers or fiddled with the midrange and tweeter controls, the sound was not as good as my 2ci's. I am now using the 2ce's in my upstairs room where my computer is. It is used primarily for background music. My question is, was the 2ce brighter than the 2ci's, and if not, what could I try to soften the sound a bit? I also should mention that both pairs of speakers are on the factory stands made for them and the tilt is correct as specified in the manual. My listening room is 14 by 18 and the speakers are on either side of the bay window about 7 feet apart, 2 feet from the rear wall and and about 4 feet from the sidewall. The speakers are towed in slightly Please help!!

A
Answer:? HELLO BOB,? THE 2CE IS NOT BRIGHTER THAN THE 2CI BUT IS MUCH HIGHER IN RESOLUTION AND TRANSPARENCY AS YOU NOTICE IN THE BASS AND EXTENDS ALL THE WAY UP IN FREQUENCIES.? YOUR SYSTEM HAS BEEN TWEAKED AROUND THE 2CI'S FOR YEARS AND IT WILL TAKE TIME TO FIND THE SOURCE OF YOUR BRIGHTNESS IN THE SYSTEM WITH THE 2CE.? MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT ADJUSTING FOR POOR RECORDINGS AS THIS IS THE FUNCTION OF TONE CONTROLS,? NOT LOWERING THE RESOLUTION OF THE SYSTEM.? GOING DOWN THAT PATH WILL RESULT IN MORE SALES FOR B----.? IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS CALL ME AT 559-582-0324."

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Feb 2015, 04:14 pm »

JackD wrote "Treos are nothing more than Quatro Woods without the powered subwoofers. "

This statement is confirmed from the below from the Vandersteen website

Q
Wes (3/26/12): I currently own 3A's (not signatures). My question is regarding the Treo vs. Quattro speakers. I want a speaker that isn't as visually dominate as the 3A but is a sonic improvement compared to the 3A. I understand that the Treo will not have the same bass extension & adjustability of the Quattro.? My question is will it have the same midrange clarity & sound staging or does it employ a different crossover that yields lesser performance than the Quattro overall?? Thanks,

A
Answer: HELLO WES,? THE UPPER PART OF THE SPEAKERS IS EXACTLY THE SAME.? ONLY ONE COMMENT ON THE BASS ADJUST ABILITY AND THAT IS THAT GETTING THE BASS ADJUSTED ALWAYS IMPROVES THE MID-RANGE CLARITY.? BASS ISSUES CAN HAVE A PROFOUND EFFECT ON THE SPEAKERS CLARITY WHICH IS MORE NOTICEABLE THAT THE ACTUAL BASS IMPROVEMENTS.? CUSTOMER ALWAYS COMMENT ON HOW THE THINK THEY HEARD AN IMPROVEMENT IN THE BASS BUT WERE SURPRISED AT THE IMPROVEMENT NOTICED IN IMAGING AND TRANSPARENCY.? OTHER THAT THAT THE PARTS ARE THE SAME FROM THE 6.5 INCH MID-BASS DRIVER ON UP.

JackD · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Mar 2015, 04:27 am »

Trust me, I know the difference between increased resolution and a change in voicing.

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #12 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 07:50 pm »

"I want a speaker that isn't as visually dominate as the 3A "
Wow and I want to purchase a magenepan 1.7i one day and yes I do know of the new smaller version of the 1.7i the 0.7i.

ctsooner · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Mar 2015, 12:47 am »

Disclaimner, I own the Treo's and will be owning the Quatro's soon as I want more bass as well as adjustable bass for my room. I personally paid the money for great resolution and not tipped up treble like so many companies do. Richard's speakers have been flat without tipping the highs a db or 2 over the years. Jack, you are the first I've heard say they like the older Vandy's better, but it's all good as maybe it's like an old shoe that you never get rid of. The one thing that has stood out about the Treo up is how neutral they are. YEs, you need to feed them as clean a signal as you can and the amps do make a difference. To me that means the speaker will give you what you are feeding it. Personally, I'm a guy who likes that. I realize what folks say about the 3a vs the Treo and the differences, but to me (as well as a few other owners I'm in touch with and that includes some 3a guys) the they are two totally different speakers and not just in the bass. The bass in my Treo's isn't as deep, but it's more musical and tighter. It should be for the price difference. The kids on up are also much better on the Treo's not to mention the Treo CT's.

As for the subs, I'd fully stay with the Vandy q's. I'd get them in a pair and make sure you set them up properly. I like coherency. For some reason I hear so many top speakers not sound coherent. Often times the tweeters are so great or fast (fast isn't always great if there is break up) and the woofers or the mids are a half step behind.

I think that most folks do want higher resolution and the newer materials for drivers allows the manufacturers to give us that. That's what finally made me switch my main speakers after 20 years (this year).

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Jul 2015, 03:16 pm »

And another post for using 2WQ subs with your Vandersteen speaker but how much current really does a Vandersteen midrange driver use? I have heard fuzzy bass resulting from a lack of current but how does a current lacking midrange driver sound?

"Leonardo (5/25/15): Hi Richard, I'm the happy owner of a pair of the 3A signature. I'm thinking of changing amplification. I have been offered a pair of Quicksilver 88 mono amps. They are rated at 80 W per channel. The manual for the 3As suggests amplification of 100 to 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Do you think that 80 W would be enough to drive the 3As? I have a medium size room and I listen at very moderate volumes (too old to rock and roll, at least not all the time). Also, would adding a subwoofer, the 2Wq, reduce the required power to drive the speakers? Thanks for your help. Leonardo

HELLO LEONARDO, I HAVE NOT TRIED THE 88’S ON THE 3A SIG BUT ITS POWER IS ON THE LOW SIDE. ADDING A 2WQ WOULD LOWER THE CURRENT NEEDED FOR THE BASS BUT DOES NOT ALTER THE DEMANDS IN THE MIDRANGE WHERE PEAK VOLTAGE IS MOST OFTEN REQUIRED. I WOULD TRY THE AMPS BEFORE PURCHASE AND MAKE SURE IT CONTROLS THE BASS AND PLAYS AS LOUD AS YOU WANT.
"

ctsooner · « **Reply #15 on:** 1 Oct 2015, 11:37 am »

I'm no engineer, but just read what Richard says about current. Yes, it seems like all the speakers use a lot of current during peaks that affect dynamics.

C17FXR · « **Reply #16 on:** 20 Oct 2015, 12:19 pm »

CT
Would you care to post your finding here so that we may expound on it?
This way others may garner some knowledge on what you have gathered as well.

mgsboedmisodpc2 · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Oct 2015, 07:41 pm »

"I'm no engineer, but just read what Richard says about current. Yes, it seems like all the speakers use a lot of current during peaks that affect dynamics. "
For the same volume setting on dynamic passages my old Onkyo M 501 150wpc does not lose steam like my Prima luna 5 using KT120s does running my Vandersteen Model 2ce without the sub

innocent bystander · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Oct 2015, 08:08 pm »

At first blush.. look at it this way.

Voltage=Current * Resistance

So using that equation, you can make an educated guess as to how much current is being passed through the amplifier to the drivers. If your amplifier has a voltage rail of say +/- 50VDC, and a peak in the music drives the voltage up to +50V, you have all you need to make an educated guess. If you have a 3-way speaker that has 8 ohm drivers, then you can guesstimate that each driver will pull 50/8 or 4.25 amps, so a total of 12.75 amps. NOW.. frequency plays a large role in that as well since the crossover effectively blocks low frequencies from going to the tweeter/mid, so the duty cycle (amount of time that work is being done) is quite low in comparison to the woofer. Those low frequencies mean that the peak is slower to roll off, meaning more work. The woofer takes the brunt of it.

werd · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Oct 2015, 10:31 pm »

How about the mismatch in amp topology? Ideally you probably want the same type of amp running or exact same amp powering the sub. I know it is hard to do but in a hypothetical situation. If running Bryston 7Bs it would be ideal using 7Bs powering the subs. Would it not smooth out he transition better and sound better integrated?