[Indiansprings]

What are your thoughts on the Jelco SA250 ST tonearm with Jelco JAC 502 shielded tonearm cable? I Want to replace the stock TP16 on my Thorens TD160.
Any input would be appreciated. 

[Delta Wave]

The Jelco stuff is nice for the money but I would one up to the next oil dampened model or try to find a Sumiko MMT, you can usually pick those up very cheap. 

[neobop]

Is there a specific reason for this, or a general upgrade?

What cart are you using or plan on using?

The reason I ask is the 250 is a 20g arm. It is highly recommended for the Denon 103 and variants, but might not be that great with more compliant carts. The arms with silicon damping are much more versatile in this respect.

Yes, I think it is feasible. Mounting distance is within around 1mm. I don't know about hole size. It might have to be enlarged. I think the 750 d is the same mount but has the damping. If you can make armboards for your Thorens you'd be able to accommodate a MMT or 350 which are 10" arms.

[Indiansprings]

I do in fact have a Denon 103R. Might work nice. Who has the wood bodys for these carts now? I think the Jelco 250 would be a nice upgraded over the stock arm. Would there be a significant audible difference with the Jelco 750?
I think my new vintage Thorens can be one hell of a deck with a few mods.

[neobop]

I'm not experienced working on a 160 so you should make sure of what's involved in replacing the arm and/or the armboard. It looks like the armboard can be replaced, in which case I'd recommend the SA-370.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jelco-SA-370H-Tonearm-Ichikawa-turntable-tone-arm-/110800525539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cc39d8e3

This would require a new armboard and tonearm cable. But it's a 239mm eff length and has damping. So for $299, the price of the 250, you have a NOS arm very similar to an MMT, which is also an option, used. I don't know what the difference is between the 250 and the 750, outside of the damping. The 750 goes for $450. in the 9" version. These arms are recommended for your 103R and if you get one with damping, owners say it will work well with higher cu carts. You might find wood bodies on Agon. Soundsmith also has them and does mods. If you do a search I'm sure you'll find them. BTW, with a 17mm overhang, mounting distance for the 370 is 222mm.

[DaveyW]

Would there be a significant audible difference with the Jelco 750?

Hi - I can't comment on the proposed arm, but would say that as an overall package I found the TD160/TP16 to be a a very solid performer.
Yes I prefer my LP12/Ittok but after a couple of direct back to backs with the same cart (including a LOMC AT OC9 MLII) it was'nt a total "night and day" difference.
This whole exercise left me holding the TP16 with high regard.
I'd certainly think very carefully and canvas as wide as an opinion as possible (as you are) before taking the plunge.

Look forward to hearing how you get on.

Cheers
Dave

[BaMorin]

Then there is always this option as well. Less money, same arm. Although you would have to "contstruct" your own arm leads to preamp.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230731441353+&item=230731441353&vectorid=229466

[BaMorin]

Hi - I can't comment on the proposed arm, but would say that as an overall package I found the TD160/TP16 to be a a very solid performer.
Yes I prefer my LP12/Ittok but after a couple of direct back to backs with the same cart (including a LOMC AT OC9 MLII) it was'nt a total "night and day" difference.
This whole exercise left me holding the TP16 with high regard.
I'd certainly think very carefully and canvas as wide as an opinion as possible (as you are) before taking the plunge.

Look forward to hearing how you get on.

Cheers
Dave

The biggest issue on the table isn't so much the arm, but the armboard. Or the lack there of. That plastic device being called an armboard doesn't allow much drainage of arm energy.  I built one for a member for his Thorens that sported an SME arm, and transformed the table.  I agree with DaveyW that the existing arm isn't bad at all. You might consider addressing other issues.

[Delta Wave]

The biggest issue on the table isn't so much the arm, but the armboard. Or the lack there of. That plastic device being called an armboard doesn't allow much drainage of arm energy.  I built one for a member for his Thorens that sported an SME arm, and transformed the table.  I agree with DaveyW that the existing arm isn't bad at all. You might consider addressing other issues.

These guys have an excellent point, you could always just re-wire it. Complete Cardas kits are cheap and in abundance on the web (dedicated audio is a good source). You could ditch the plastic armboard and make one (or have one made) by a material of your choice.
I have a local plastic fabrication company that has done a lot of custom Delrin work for me. And I also make a lot of exotic wood parts for myself.

These are always around as well, which are basically a Jelco 740/Sumiko MMT
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230731441353+&item=230731441353&vectorid=229466&afsrc=1

[neobop]

I do in fact have a Denon 103R. Might work nice. Who has the wood bodys for these carts now? I think the Jelco 250 would be a nice upgraded over the stock arm. Would there be a significant audible difference with the Jelco 750?
I think my new vintage Thorens can be one hell of a deck with a few mods.

I'm only recommending a Jelco in the context of the 103 cart. If you get an oil damped one, it may or may not be an improvement over the stock arm with other carts. I doubt if the 250 would be great with many modern carts and virtually all MM/MI carts. If you go with a 370 or MMT you'll have the damping feature of the 750 plus longer eff length. Based on other posts it seems like the stock armboard is hindering performance whether you get a new arm or not. You might get greater improvement just from the armboard.

You should research this more. On VE there is a Thorens section and there are 160 users on Audiokarma. You can find out what's involved and if the armboard can accommodate an arm with 222mm mounting distance and a 30mm? hole. I usually make armboards out of solid oak, plastic as recommended by Delta Wave (sometimes similar plastic), or aluminum. Making an armboard for the stock arm would probably be a revelation and lead you to other improvements. When you get the deck sounding like that "one hell of a deck" you're talking about, is the time to consider arm replacement.

[Indiansprings]

I like the responses you guys are giving me. I know we all get wrapped up in upgrades and tweaks. That being said. I am really wondering if my stock TP16, rewired, cleaned and detailed out to better than new condition, placed on a new quality arm board would stack up well with the Jelco and others. I have a pretty new Denon 103R with a Denon step up trans already.
I have a message into a friend to discuss the Plinth. I am also going to do some dampening. When I get is started I will document it with photos.
The tonearm is my biggest hangup right now.

[blakep]

The 370, LAD and MMT arms are not even close to a 750D. I've owned the MMT (as well as an FT3) in the past and currently own a 750D.

The 370 and LAD arms would more than likely compare with Jelco's current 250S (s-shaped arm). As well as having a superior headshell and damping of the arm tube, the 750D and its longer variants also have the best bearings and tonearm wiring that Jelco has ever used in any of their tonearms.

750D and variants should not be confused, quality wise, with the other Jelco arms.

[Delta Wave]

The 750D is basically an even better version than the one they made for Koutsu if I'm not mistaken. So many variants of their arms... Profile, Systemdek, AudioQuest, Graham, etc. I can never remember the exact model number. It's all too much! 

[neobop]

The 370, LAD and MMT arms are not even close to a 750D. I've owned the MMT (as well as an FT3) in the past and currently own a 750D.

The 370 and LAD arms would more than likely compare with Jelco's current 250S (s-shaped arm). As well as having a superior headshell and damping of the arm tube, the 750D and its longer variants also have the best bearings and tonearm wiring that Jelco has ever used in any of their tonearms.

750D and variants should not be confused, quality wise, with the other Jelco arms.

That's interesting. Since the spec for horizontal bearing sensitivity is actually a little worse for the 750E compared to the 370, I assumed the bearings weren't any better.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HI-END-JELCO-SA-750E-10-TONEARM-BRONZE-COLOR-/290586154206?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a848d4de

The difference in retail price between the standard 250 and 750 is $150. This translates to about $75 wholesale. My guess was, that would pay for the damping feature and not better bearings. The MMT came with a nice headshell and was a very different arm than the FT3. I've never used a 750. Maybe I assumed too much.

[blakep]

That's interesting. Since the spec for horizontal bearing sensitivity is actually a little worse for the 750E compared to the 370, I assumed the bearings weren't any better.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HI-END-JELCO-SA-750E-10-TONEARM-BRONZE-COLOR-/290586154206?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a848d4de

The difference in retail price between the standard 250 and 750 is $150. This translates to about $75 wholesale. My guess was, that would pay for the damping feature and not better bearings. The MMT came with a nice headshell and was a very different arm than the FT3. I've never used a 750. Maybe I assumed too much.

Notwithstanding the difference in the spec quoted on the hbs (the 370 and LAD are 25-30 year old NOS arms), the bearings are different and the bearing in the 750D series has a substantially strengthened supporting pivot relative to the 370 and current 250 series arms. Jelco will confirm this if you want to contact them-they did for me before I purchased my 750.

So that, and the improved arm damping (this has been commented on in some of the professional reviews of the 750D) and the wiring are the primary differences. Could be wrong on this but I don't believe the 370 and LAD arms offer any azimuth adjustment either, unlike the 750D which allows that through rotation of the stock Jelco/Sumiko headshell which, as you say, is quite good.

[xsb7244]

Three to consider.  Woody Tonearm by Pete Riggle.  Apparition by Analog Instruments Limited.  The Wand
Tonearm by Design Build listen.

[Berndt]

The guys around the Galibier forum love the jelco250 s ARM with discovery rewire. They say it sounds superior to the more expensive jelcos and that the fluid damping of the jelco is not perhaps an improvement.
I trust the ears of the Galibier crew.

[Delta Wave]

Or you could just go with a nice SME 3009 S2I, they're all over Ebay. Lot's of improvements you can do yourself, they're extremely simple to disassemble and NOS parts are in abundance. 

But I think if I were in your shoes, I would play with the Thorens arm, I think they are pretty nice myself. I had a 160 for a little while. I ended up restoring it to stock and gave it to my brother for a bday present. He's still using it after about 4 years.

[GregC]

I am a fan of Origin Live arms.  I have owned and used an OL-1, a Silver, an Encounter, an Illustrious, and a Conqueror tonearm.  The Conqueror is my current reference.  I sold my Illustrious to a member on AC and he was very happy with it.