[OB_Newbie]

Hey Odal & OB,

no need to apologise at all.....i appreciate the education especially on topics i dont have much of a clue about such as audio fidelity and frequency measurements.

I'm going to order some of those ultras and perhaps a thruster or 2 to do a comparison and try them out on some xps....i need to know the difference between what you guys are hearing and what i'm content to listen to with my wooden panel!

I may even coat the xps with 1mm wood veneer....who knows....i have my reservations about not using wood and losing that richness of tone (plus the aesthetics are not too shabby and certainly beat looking at foam!)

thanks for the kind words and dont worry about hurting my feelings with constructive criticism...the knowledge i gain far outweighs any negative thoughts i could have (plus i'm a big boy....i can handle it.....sniff).

all the best,

Squibby.

Heck yeah Squibby... XPS/EPS is cheap and with all exciters on sale at PE now is the time to play.  I've gone back to XPS and feel that the XPS panels sound more natural actually than my ply panels but I need to try a 1/4" panel yet but just afraid that I will lose even more detail and efficiency.   

The Utlra's on XPS are really that good in my opinion but sure hope you/others will build a set of XPS panels with the Ultras for comparisons to other panel materials.   

Later all!

[irishpatrick33]

Deleted

[Odal3]

If there was only more time in the day...have had 2 ultra exciters sitting on my desk to be installed for a while now - haven't even had a chance for a listening test. Maybe this weekend.

Hope you all are doing great with your panels projects.

[TXATC]

Hello all,

I have spent the last 4 days reading through this entire thread.  Definitely a kick in the stomach. I have been following this because I wanted something different and fresh. I want to use these to implement my 7.1 surround sound for my dedicated home theater. I notice you all mention listening to music but rarely do I see a mention of movies or the like. Would these be feasible  for this purpose or should I just stick with conventional? (REALLLY like the panel idea!)

I noticed about 15-20 pages ago -ish that yall started using the term XPS. I seem to recall that waaayyyy earlier it was deemed XPS was expanded and EPS was extruded? Maybe I got it backwards. Which to use? For three HT I could use the ply as well  not really tied down to one material, just want one that will sound ludicrous in the movie room.

I gather if I'm reading correct that the "Ultra" is the "preferred" exciter to use 1 per panel? I was looking at PE today and didn't see the "Ultra" descriptor.  May have missed it, anybody got a part number?

The plan will be to power with a HT receiver and will probably end up augmenting with a horn sub, any guidance, criticism will be appreciated  the panels would end up approximately  2ft x4ft for each of the 7 channels. Center channel mounted horizontally. Mounted to the wall to minimize  the amount of real estate taken. Thanks in advance for putting so much time and effort into this thread/project!

EDIT: Found the exciters...just missed 'em.

[OB_Newbie]

If there was only more time in the day...have had 2 ultra exciters sitting on my desk to be installed for a while now - haven't even had a chance for a listening test. Maybe this weekend.

Hope you all are doing great with your panels projects.

Hey Odal!  I'm with you man... no time these days to even listen much let alone build panels!  Do report back on the Ultra's on XPS... can't wait to hear your impressions!

[Odal3]

TXATC
The Dayton thrusters are good too, and in regards to panel materials, play around with a couple of the options mentioned, and you will have a fun time figuring out what you like the best. They all have pros and cons. In fact, it's the easy experimenting that makes it fun (at least when I have time to do it).

I have used the panels in HT as well, and they are really really good for it. When there was a gun shot I literally jumped due to the realism, and the suspense music or the ambiance from big city or forest scenes are super. I have only played movies with 2 channels but I also planning to build up a HT system with panels.

BTW: We need to make this thread easier to read so we can get more people going. It's a bit intimidating with all the pages. Is it possible to do stickies in this forum where we can summarize the latest ideas? I have also been thinking about putting 4 large panels spread around the room and play <100hz in a "sub-swarm" type of layout.

[OB_Newbie]

Hey TXATC!  Dude...you are a madman for taking on the thread!   
 

Hello all,

I have spent the last 4 days reading through this entire thread.  Definitely a kick in the stomach. I have been following this because I wanted something different and fresh. I want to use these to implement my 7.1 surround sound for my dedicated home theater. I notice you all mention listening to music but rarely do I see a mention of movies or the like. Would these be feasible  for this purpose or should I just stick with conventional? (REALLLY like the panel idea!)

Odal had mentioned how good the panels sound for HT.  I've read others as well and they all seem to agree with Odal's observation as well.

I noticed about 15-20 pages ago -ish that yall started using the term XPS. I seem to recall that waaayyyy earlier it was deemed XPS was expanded and EPS was extruded? Maybe I got it backwards. Which to use? For three HT I could use the ply as well  not really tied down to one material, just want one that will sound ludicrous in the movie room.

I personally like the XPS but many others report good results with EPS as well.  High quality EPS and XPS should be very similar in performance I imagine.  I'd say go with the highest quality material that you can find locally. If you are like everyone else here you will build more than 1 set of panels so if you have both available think you might just try them both eh!?

I gather if I'm reading correct that the "Ultra" is the "preferred" exciter to use 1 per panel? I was looking at PE today and didn't see the "Ultra" descriptor.  May have missed it, anybody got a part number?

The plan will be to power with a HT receiver and will probably end up augmenting with a horn sub, any guidance, criticism will be appreciated  the panels would end up approximately  2ft x4ft for each of the 7 channels. Center channel mounted horizontally. Mounted to the wall to minimize  the amount of real estate taken. Thanks in advance for putting so much time and effort into this thread/project!

EDIT: Found the exciters...just missed 'em.

Whaaooooo... 7 large panels... that's a lot of surface area.  Great if you have that space but have to think you can get away with somewhat smaller panels rear and center channels huh!?!?

Both the Thrusters and Ultra's are fairly new but the Thrusters have more listening impressions.  Both sound fantastic.  Ziggy called the Thruster a "game changer" and is indeed very nice sounding.  I personally prefer the Ultra... at least on XPS.  Even before they were broken in they sounded better than the Thruster... improved clarity but at the expense of robustness as the Ultra's are fragile.  I received word that PE is working on improving that specific aspect of the Ultra design.

[TXATC]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

I figure 7 big panels should work.........I figure go big or go home huh? (plus I can cut em down if its too much)

Thoughts on the Dayton white sheet? Compliantly suspending the edges?

Thoughts on wall mounting? Seems most of y'all have em in open air off the walls a fair bit.

I was thinking the velcro trick to the end of some "dowels" for lack of a better word.

Not trying for the end all be all to start just trying to gauge whats changed since pg 57 
OH! Painting panels? Hindrance to sound? Or is my Theater gonna be pink panthering it?

[OB_Newbie]

Go big baby!!!   

Just heard tonight that someone said that black printer ink in Sedges magic treatment does a great job of coloring the pink panels a more likeable black!  Any of the black woodworking powders/get that you mix with water/alcohol should work fine as well.  Sedge suggested that a few months ago.   

[TXATC]

Okay folks,

This just in from the Decor police. The Panels MUST be mounted on the wall. Now I have a 3 and 5 year old that can get a little clumsy at times. Mounting must be robust enough to withstand a slight bump every now and again. I recall a post  earlier that stated NOT to obstruct the edges in any way shape or for. (It was the post that ended up tearing off half of his frame don't recall who it was though)

1. How best to mount to the wall (so far)
2. Will I need to put damping on the wall behind the panel i.e. egg crate foam, more xps?
3. How much low end (estimated) will I lose mounting with #1 suggestion?
4.  Will low end loss even matter with planned augmented sub?

Sorry for the questions guys. Trying to nail down a plan while I wait for the ultras to hit the doorstep. They shipped today!

As always thanks in advance for your input!

[Odal3]

That's exciting!! I haven't mounted on the wall so no experience there, but if you make the connection too rigid (frame around it attached to all sides or flat mount it), you will loose some on the low end. Depends on your exact set-up, but when I played around with some different mounting methods it dropped around 200hz. If you have it too tight to the wall you may also get some rattle if the panel hit the wall or speaker cable.

Suspending the panels has generated the best sound in my set-up. Having them standing works well too but generates a floor effect with two peaks and a dip but that only seems to be a concern under 100Hz.

Looking fwd to hear more about your listening impressions!

BTW: Had a quick hold the Ultra exciter to the panel test yesterday. Sounded good, but agree that those tabs were a bit tricky to attach the speaker wires too without breaking them. Hopefully I got it OK.

[TXATC]

Connections then,

Would you definitely recommend solder or just reeeeaaaallllllyyyyyyy careful application of disconnects?

[TXATC]

Why does time seem to crawl when you are waiting for goodies?

I had a question about the amount of exciters per panel. I read here towards the end that others were satisfied with one per panel. Also that there was a loss of HF when using multiples. Will one per panel end up being enough? I am concerned that it won't play loud enough.

If anybody has pics of how you suspended your panels, it would be appreciated. What did you use? I believe I have come up with a method to mount them to the walls and still be suspended and "tensioned" to where contact with anything is eliminated except for what they are suspended from. I still have to figure out materials to suspend but I am considering 3mm rubber cord used in jewelry making. My thinking is minimal size but still won't transfer what little vibration they get to anything else.

Has anybody tried the mathematical "Golden Ratio" 1.618? I am thinking a bit smaller panels because 24 inches in a 25 inch space is a little tight. I was thinking 20x32 for each panel.

As always thoughts are welcome.

[Odal3]

Connections then,

Would you definitely recommend solder or just reeeeaaaallllllyyyyyyy careful application of disconnects?

I was only able to get the speaker cable attached by soldering.

[Odal3]

I had a question about the amount of exciters per panel. I read here towards the end that others were satisfied with one per panel. Also that there was a loss of HF when using multiples. Will one per panel end up being enough? I am concerned that it won't play loud enough.

With the more powerful 40W exciters you probably only need one - especially if you use XPS boards. I have been running 4 low power ones (monacor placement 1-4 as well as "tuned-by-ear") on thicker birch boards. I was happy with the results but created some minor spikes in the frequency plots, but not too bad.
edit: But 1 thruster was more than enough for the birch boards and it will be even louder on the XPS.

I would recommend to start with one and see how you like it. For me it's plenty loud, but I don't like to play it super loud either.

I still have to figure out materials to suspend but I am considering 3mm rubber cord used in jewelry making. My thinking is minimal size but still won't transfer what little vibration they get to anything else.

Since I use heavier birch plywood, I used thin metal wire (same type you would hang paintings with). Worked OK. I will suspend my panels from the ceiling.

Alright - prepared another board and finally had a chance to listen to the Ultras and compare them to the Thrusters. My initial impression was better clarity at the expense of the bass. The boards were really large 2.5' x 5' at a 1/4 " thickness so it might have been too heavy for the Ultras (final boards will be smaller), but then on the other hand I have two subs in the room so the boards doesn't need to go down that low. More impressions to come later this week.

[TXATC]

Good to know! Looking forward to more impressions. PE says package was delivered today but I'm stuck at work until 11

Does anybody think watercolor on the front would mess with the sound too much after the pva treatment?  Kinda want to let my girls decorate them before I hang the panels. Would give them something to do and they'd like seeing their work displayed.

Heading to get the xps tomorrow from a certain big box store. I will be using the 1 inch to start with. Hopefully with everything I've read here has prepared me to make an educated guess as to what will work out of the gate.

[Odal3]

Curious to see how you will like them. Before making them permanent I would recommend to experiment with different solutions - use for example easy to remove VH tape you can find at Home depot. The one I used is similar to the tape that is already on the exciters but thicker with some gel in between. It will not sound as good as using a more permanent solution (or the tape already on the exciter), but it definitely makes it much easier to play around with different options get a feel for the sound before fully committing. That's the fun part. I spent some time with my kids and we tried the sound out by hand holding the exciter on pretty much every flat surface in the house!

Ultra vs Thrusters exciters on large and thick birch boards -Part 2:  Both sounds good but with different qualities. I ran some measurements and they pretty much followed the same profile. There was a slight variation in the 7-10Hz with Ultras being a little bit higher but not by much. Since wood boards are not really uniform (and I spent more time sanding the boards I put the Ultra on), I can't really tell if that measured difference is due to different boards or the exciters themselves.

Listening - They both sounds great. The thruster definitely makes the board move and the low bass comes out stronger - despite the frequency measurements shows similar output down to 35-38Hz (need to explore this more). You can visually see the thruster move more, and touching the boards confirms it. The one issue I had with the Ultra is that I get knocking sound at loud bass heavy music. Almost like it bottoms out or the plastic housing hits the board. Need to spend some time on this to track down where it is coming from. The Ultras seems to have more clarity which really added to the listening in a positive way. But again, I'm not sure if these differences is due to the boards themselves or the exciters. The monacor 1 position on the ultra board was right over a denser area of the wood.

Will continue listening but in short - I'm happy to finally get two similar sized board at the same time and my system has never sounded this good before (still use subs for the really low bass plus help smooth out some room modes <100hz. Still can't get the HF as good as I want it without eq. Frequency plots looks good when mic close to the boards, but it drops quite a bit at normal listening distance. Oh well - that just mean some more fun experimenting!

[TXATC]

Well I just got home and the exciters were waiting for me!

Unboxed them and they felt quite hefty. The housing on the back had some squeeze out of the glue so the top edges are tacky. Don't know if this is the norm. I see now what you meant about the tabs........holy cow are they tiny! Might have to brush off my soldering  skills before I attempt that.

When you use the PVA  or whichever glue instead of the tape, do you scrape off the old stuff first? (Off the exciter) I'm not quite certain if I just glue over it or if it needs to be removed. If removal is necessary  what is the best way to clean off the exciter without damaging it? I have read the VHB  is a 1 shot application.

[Odal3]

 

I noticed the tacky edges as well and wondered about it too. The other exciters I have do not have that sticky stuff since they have metal backs.

When I used the tape as described in my previous post, I just put that over the paper covering the VHB (but that degraded the sound). However, I tried putting some tape on the Ultras too but the VHB cover tape was too slick for it too attach. I have tried using PVA as well as the pre-attached tape and it sounded the same to me. Super-glue or similar would probably be a step up but I haven't tried it yet because I still want to be able to get the exciters off.

Don't know of a good method to remove it - I just rubbed it off (after I had first had it attached for a while with the old stuff)

Have fun!

[TXATC]

What gauge wire did you use to attach these?