AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Sonic Craft => Topic started by: advanced101 on 28 Jul 2016, 08:37 pm

Title: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: advanced101 on 28 Jul 2016, 08:37 pm
Looking for some recommendations for upgrading all the caps in my Primaluna Dialogue Premium Preamp.  Great preamp, but feel the stock caps are the bottleneck.  I was thinking Jupiter copper but the size might be an issue.

Here is a picture of the internals:
(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww204/advanced101101/dl-prem-pre-inside-boxes.jpg)
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: nickd on 28 Jul 2016, 09:25 pm
Go Jupiter Copper and don't look back. :thumb:
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: mresseguie on 28 Jul 2016, 09:30 pm
+1 on Jupiter Cu

I've ordered these for my new preamp.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Early B. on 28 Jul 2016, 10:02 pm
For the cost of Jupiter caps, you're better off upgrading to a higher quality preamp.

BTW -- the volume control is probably a weaker link than the caps.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Hugh on 28 Jul 2016, 10:11 pm
To the OP,
Yes, size will be a major issue.
It looks like you got no extra room for larger size caps and Jupiters' are rather larger.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Hugh on 28 Jul 2016, 10:11 pm
What he said.

For the cost of Jupiter caps, you're better off upgrading to a higher quality preamp.

BTW -- the volume control is probably a weaker link than the caps.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: mresseguie on 28 Jul 2016, 10:45 pm
Early B has an excellent point. It's very snug under that hood. I wonder if Janzsens (sp?) would fit?

Look into how much you could get in a sale and decide on your budget for your next preamp (assuming you wish to go this route).
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 28 Jul 2016, 10:46 pm
For the cost of Jupiter caps, you're better off upgrading to a higher quality preamp.

BTW -- the volume control is probably a weaker link than the caps.

It's true an Alps Blue is very ho hum and will be a bottleneck.

Consider pure DIY, like me  :wink:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Folsom on 28 Jul 2016, 11:13 pm
I'll third it, get a worthy volume control. The $10 DACT'S on eBay are absurdly good for the money. Poseiden has used a preamp (passive) with one, and liked it.

Caps? Maybe, but decide after volume.

I doubt the caps in that are terrible or anything, they are film
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 29 Jul 2016, 02:48 am
Looking for some recommendations for upgrading all the caps in my Primaluna Dialogue Premium Preamp.  Great preamp, but feel the stock caps are the bottleneck.  I was thinking Jupiter copper but the size might be an issue.

LOL! :lol::lol:  No shortage of opinions here :green:

I assume you like your pre, and it looks fairly will built.  The pot could be better, but you are correct that the caps are the bottleneck.  The "douch" caps are probable just one of a dozen rebadged metalized  SCRs.  They appear to be in the power supply, and less important locations.  They are probably OK there.  The tin foil Solens are not bad on the cheap, but there is a whole lot more to be had.  The tin foil cap is a larger cap, so it is possible that a reasonable value will fit in the output location.  The interstage is more of a fixed value, but they appear to be small values.  We are only talking about changing two pair here.  The Jupiters are likely the way to go, but I would like to hear your desired results, and see a schematic.  If a schematic is not possible, you are welcome to send it to us for a free evaluation.  You will only be obligated to return shipping.  We will tell you everything there is to know about it, and if the Jupiter or brand X will fit.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: mresseguie on 29 Jul 2016, 04:29 am
Yikes! My apologies, Jeff. It wasn't till you replied that I noticed this thread is in your circle.  :o

Thankfully, I only wear size thirteen shoes, so pulling my foot out of my mouth isn't too difficult.  :duh:
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Escott1377 on 29 Jul 2016, 11:26 am
LOL! :lol::lol:  No shortage of opinions here :green:

I assume you like your pre, and it looks fairly will built.  The pot could be better, but you are correct that the caps are the bottleneck.  The "douch" caps are probable just one of a dozen rebadged metalized  SCRs.  They appear to be in the power supply, and less important locations.  They are probably OK there.  The tin foil Solens are not bad on the cheap, but there is a whole lot more to be had.  The tin foil cap is a larger cap, so it is possible that a reasonable value will fit in the output location.  The interstage is more of a fixed value, but they appear to be small values.  We are only talking about changing two pair here.  The Jupiters are likely the way to go, but I would like to hear your desired results, and see a schematic.  If a schematic is not possible, you are welcome to send it to us for a free evaluation.  You will only be obligated to return shipping.  We will tell you everything there is to know about it, and if the Jupiter or brand X will fit.

Jeff - I know you guys will often offer to solder RCA's, XLR's, etc, are you willing to offer the same for capacitors?

Thanks n advance -
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: TrueAudio on 29 Jul 2016, 12:02 pm
For the cost of Jupiter caps, you're better off upgrading to a higher quality preamp.

BTW -- the volume control is probably a weaker link than the caps.
Would Audyn True Copper Caps be on par with Jupiter copper for less $$?
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Jul 2016, 01:12 pm
LOL! :lol::lol:  No shortage of opinions here :green:

I assume you like your pre, and it looks fairly will built.  The pot could be better, but you are correct that the caps are the bottleneck.  The "douch" caps are probable just one of a dozen rebadged metalized  SCRs.  They appear to be in the power supply, and less important locations.  They are probably OK there.  The tin foil Solens are not bad on the cheap, but there is a whole lot more to be had.  The tin foil cap is a larger cap, so it is possible that a reasonable value will fit in the output location.  The interstage is more of a fixed value, but they appear to be small values.  We are only talking about changing two pair here.  The Jupiters are likely the way to go, but I would like to hear your desired results, and see a schematic.  If a schematic is not possible, you are welcome to send it to us for a free evaluation.  You will only be obligated to return shipping.  We will tell you everything there is to know about it, and if the Jupiter or brand X will fit.

No disagreement here. Although depending on who you talk to which one of these upgrades (cap versus pot) would be the 1st? Difficult to say without seeing a schematic to be honest. And if it were me, everything would be reanalyzed including bias points, output transformers, etc....then suddenly you have a different amplifier! For me, proper circuit design is paramount, along with measurements...then and only then do you populate it with 'fancy' parts if needed. There are a lot of average performing circuits out there, caveat emptor.

I'm not much of a modder sadly, I have completely drifted into the 'build it right the 1st time' camp. But that takes a discretionary income that many do not have.

Thanks for your experience & patience Jeff  :thumb:, I actually have an AMP CAMP F4 order coming your way...I'm curious about how that circuit performs...but with some of my own twists thrown in  :icon_twisted:

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: advanced101 on 29 Jul 2016, 02:03 pm
Thanks for the input everyone.  I really like the preamp, just trying to get the most out of it.  I had an assortment of preamps at one point including a Mac 2500, MFA TVC and others, this one managed to stay.  Plus, I have a nice assortment of 12AU7 and 5AR tubes.

I agree the ALPs is a limiter.  I have to look at options to swap that out but still maintain the Primaluna remote functions.  Not a big deal if not I guess.
The size of the caps will be the biggest issue, not much room in there.

I reached out to Jeff directly to see what we can work out.  If I were to start upgrading I would just do everything that I could at once.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 29 Jul 2016, 06:12 pm
Yikes! My apologies, Jeff. It wasn't till you replied that I noticed this thread is in your circle.  :o

Thankfully, I only wear size thirteen shoes, so pulling my foot out of my mouth isn't too difficult.  :duh:

No need to apologize.  This is a public forum, and you are very welcome here!  I appreciate your contribution.  :D
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 29 Jul 2016, 06:15 pm
Jeff - I know you guys will often offer to solder RCA's, XLR's, etc, are you willing to offer the same for capacitors?

Thanks n advance -

We offer full service, but we stop advertising when we are busy :wink:  We never refuse customer requests that are within our scope.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 29 Jul 2016, 06:24 pm
Would Audyn True Copper Caps be on par with Jupiter copper for less $$?

You did not pose this to me, but I must say it is a budget consideration.  Especially when you compare ~$40 to ~$70 for a 0.47uF.  However, the Audyn does not touch the Jupiter.  The Jupiter is superior in rich harmonic bloom, and transparency.  While the Jupiter comes out on top in other characteristics as well, it is just simpler to say they are very different caps.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 29 Jul 2016, 06:38 pm
No disagreement here. Although depending on who you talk to which one of these upgrades (cap versus pot) would be the 1st? Difficult to say without seeing a schematic to be honest. And if it were me, everything would be reanalyzed including bias points, output transformers, etc....then suddenly you have a different amplifier! For me, proper circuit design is paramount, along with measurements...then and only then do you populate it with 'fancy' parts if needed. There are a lot of average performing circuits out there, caveat emptor.

I'm not much of a modder sadly, I have completely drifted into the 'build it right the 1st time' camp. But that takes a discretionary income that many do not have.

Thanks for your experience & patience Jeff  :thumb:, I actually have an AMP CAMP order coming your way...I'm curious about how that circuit performs...but with some of my own twists thrown in  :icon_twisted:

Best,
Anand.

This approach to his original query would be similar to instructing one on how to build a clock, when they merely asked for the time...  Otherwise I completely agree with only two exceptions.  The concept of perfection is vague, and there is no accounting for taste.  I think you and I are of the same mind here, but that is not everyone's solution.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Jul 2016, 06:58 pm
This approach to his original query would be similar to instructing one on how to build a clock, when they merely asked for the time...  Otherwise I completely agree with only two exceptions.  The concept of perfection is vague, and there is no accounting for taste.  I think you and I are of the same mind here, but that is not everyone's solution.

Excellent points!

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: msommers on 4 Sep 2017, 05:47 pm
Any update on if you did any upgrades and if so, which ones?
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 4 Sep 2017, 09:41 pm
You might want to look at Jensen PIO Copper Foil Caps.  Clarity MR caps sound great as well.

My BAT preamp uses Jensen PIO Aluminum caps but the Coppers are supposed to sound better.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 4 Sep 2017, 10:37 pm
Any update on if you did any upgrades and if so, which ones?

I do not remember what this customer decided to do.  We did not work on it though.  Perhaps the OP will update us.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 4 Sep 2017, 10:44 pm
You might want to look at Jensen PIO Copper Foil Caps.  Clarity MR caps sound great as well.

My BAT preamp uses Jensen PIO Aluminum caps but the Coppers are supposed to sound better.

Too many long term problems with Jensen.  BAT along with many other manufactures have had issues.  Jupiter and enjoy.  The MR (non-copper end spray) sound identical to the Mundorf Supreme.  The Supreme is cheaper.  While the new copper spray is better, the MR is still a three section metallized poly.  It will never compete with a true paper and foil cap.  BTW, if your desired value is available in an AZ cap, they are a better buy than the Alum Jensen.  Less apt to leak as well.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: I.Greyhound Fan on 5 Sep 2017, 01:18 am
Too many long term problems with Jensen.  BAT along with many other manufactures have had issues.  Jupiter and enjoy.  The MR (non-copper end spray) sound identical to the Mundorf Supreme.  The Supreme is cheaper.  While the new copper spray is better, the MR is still a three section metallized poly.  It will never compete with a true paper and foil cap.  BTW, if your desired value is available in an AZ cap, they are a better buy than the Alum Jensen.  Less apt to leak as well.

I have talked directly with Victor Khomenko from BAT and he said that they had problems with the older original PIO Jensen Caps but the newer ones do not have the same problems.  I had the caps replaced in my BAT VK-51se, all 12 and have had no problems in over 2 years.  The original ones were not leaking but they were old.  It took them about 150 hours to break in.  I bought them  directly from Jensen and saved a few hundred dollars.
Title: Re: Capacitor Upgrade Recommendations...
Post by: Jeff on 5 Sep 2017, 01:45 am
I have talked directly with Victor Khomenko from BAT and he said that they had problems with the older original PIO Jensen Caps but the newer ones do not have the same problems.  I had the caps replaced in my BAT VK-51se, all 12 and have had no problems in over 2 years.  The original ones were not leaking but they were old.  It took them about 150 hours to break in.  I bought them  directly from Jensen and saved a few hundred dollars.

Time will tell.  But most in the know are going to be unwilling to roll the dice.  They should have never leaked...  Now they are better, and will not leak...  What is one to believe?  I will tell you this.  The biggest reason industry moved away from PIOs is because they are very unreliable.  I work on equipment with leaky Jensens almost monthly.  Those customers would not take the new ones if they were free.  :wink: :(

Further, I have always preferred dry paper.  Which is technically not dry.  It is wax impregnated.

BTW, aside from the leaking issue, and voltage leaky, they often short.  That is why Jensen adds a poly film to their more expensive parts.  Too expensive to fail.