Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts

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tobes

Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« on: 27 Nov 2014, 12:49 am »
When I ordered my Khartago from Klaus over 6 months ago I was on a tight budget.
While I didn't want to compromise the build, I was seeking bang for buck.
I could tell that Klaus was reluctant to omit the WBT silver binding posts, but my reaction was "How much are those connectors??!!"
Hence I went with the stock heavy duty binding posts.

Some weeks ago curiosity got the best of me.
I swapped out the stock posts for the top of the line WBT 0710Ag posts.
Unbelievable!

Profound improvement in low level detail.
Attack/decay/intrumental 'bloom' way better.
Greater bass tautness, density and apparent depth.
Soundstage clarity, clarity in general, and sense of space/volume - tick, tick, tick.
The liveliness and low level resolution is something special.

Maybe there is some sort of weird synergy going on with the silver spades on my cables?
This sort of improvement really doesn't seem right.......just how can a connector make this much improvement??

klaus@odyssey

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #1 on: 28 Nov 2014, 10:39 pm »
YUP !!!  Actually, the WBT inputs make the biggest difference, but quality in construction and metallurgy is definitely audible.........

richidoo

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #2 on: 29 Nov 2014, 01:32 am »
Welcome to AudioCircle Tobes! Congrats on your new amp, fine choice!

I haven't tried silver posts (yet) but I know how important posts can be. A DIY speaker kit I bought came with cast zinc posts. They sounded really awful. Fortunately one broke while tightening so I learned the reason for the bad sound when I replaced with real brass. But still a far cry from silver. Thanks for sharing.

tobes

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #3 on: 29 Nov 2014, 05:15 am »
Rich, I was totally taken by surprise with the magnitude of improvement.

The reason I joined up and posted is that I couldn't find any subjective assessments of the change anywhere - other than Klaus' recommendation of course.
Perhaps this is because people either opt for the silver posts at build stage or not(?) - ie haven't experienced the difference.
Hopefully this is useful to some people considering the option - and hopefully the silver WBT's will yield similar results in other systems(?).

tobes

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #4 on: 29 Nov 2014, 01:45 pm »
Sitting here listening to some music - Jen Chapin, Revisions and Jerry Garcia/Dave Grisman, So What - and a couple of further points come to mind.
The observations above seem like clininal data points. But the glory of these connectors is that they make music more intense, interesting, dimensional and real……it's like you can observe instruments/performers more directly, closer to live! I'm still in awe of that low level resolution, like the noise floor dropped away.

I should also come clean and state that I've replaced my speaker binding posts with the same terminals - after hearing what they did for the Khartago there was no option.







DaveC113

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Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #5 on: 29 Nov 2014, 03:27 pm »
The top line WBT connectors are amazing, but pricey. I have their silver spades and bananas on my speaker cables and use their 0102 RCA plugs as well... both are about as good as it gets imo. The Stratos amp I have uses WBTs, it's a GREAT sounding amp.  :thumb:

tobes

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #6 on: 30 Nov 2014, 12:09 am »
Dave, my Khartago came with the WBT 0201 Toplines fitted - so I can't really quantify their contribution.
Klaus convinced me to get them and they're not a very expensive option.
Going by Klaus' comment above, he seems to think RCA's have more effect than the binding posts.
That may be, but it's like the silver posts have opened the floodgates in my system.

DaveC113

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Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #7 on: 30 Nov 2014, 12:28 am »
Dave, my Khartago came with the WBT 0201 Toplines fitted - so I can't really quantify their contribution.
Klaus convinced me to get them and they're not a very expensive option.
Going by Klaus' comment above, he seems to think RCA's have more effect than the binding posts.
That may be, but it's like the silver posts have opened the floodgates in my system.

The difference in cables, connectors, wiring and AC power can be profound.

I recently heard a system with Lamhorn speakers with Air Tight preamp and Fi 2a3 monoblocks... it was ok but after upgrading cables and using a power conditioner it transformed into one of the best systems I've ever heard. This isn't always the case but this system had serious potential that was unlocked!

The Odyssey amps are really nice, it exceeded my expectations by a good bit and are well worth buying nice connectors for.  :thumb:

germay0653

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #8 on: 6 Dec 2014, 03:33 pm »
Dave, my Khartago came with the WBT 0201 Toplines fitted - so I can't really quantify their contribution.
Klaus convinced me to get them and they're not a very expensive option.
Going by Klaus' comment above, he seems to think RCA's have more effect than the binding posts.
That may be, but it's like the silver posts have opened the floodgates in my system.

Tobes,  what brand and type (metal) speaker cables and spades are you using?

Thanks,  Gery

tobes

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #9 on: 7 Dec 2014, 12:45 am »
Gery, I'm using the Goertz copper MI-2 cables with their solid silver spades.
I've been using this cable for more than 10 years.
The rest of my system details are listed in the hyperlink under my user name.

Note that, due to their flat ribbon construction, the Goertz cables have unusually low inductance and high capacitance.
Klaus (along with many other amplifier manufacturers) would likely be cautious about use of this cable as the high capacitance can cause amplifiers to oscillate!
For this reason I use a Zobel network at the speaker end which damps the cable's resonant peak and restores normal phase behavior in the Mhz region - this article is a good reference for the issue: http://sound.westhost.com/cable-z.htm.
While the Khartago runs cool and shows no apparent misbehavior without the Zobel, it sounds better with it - better image focus/depth and perhaps even better treble quality.

Wind Chaser

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #10 on: 7 Dec 2014, 01:38 am »
There is another way that is even better... and much cheaper too. Use the existing posts to clamp the speaker cable directly to the output leads. IMO direct contact is always better than passing a signal through another medium.

tobes

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #11 on: 7 Dec 2014, 02:07 am »
There is another way that is even better... and much cheaper too. Use the existing posts to clamp the speaker cable directly to the output leads. IMO direct contact is always better than passing a signal through another medium.

Yes, I am aware of this method - and it would probably be a very good sounding option.
However with my Khartago it would have required replacement of the Groneberg internal wiring (to extend length) drilling exit holes for the wire etc.
The silver posts, although expensive, are just a straight and easy swap - and retain the Odyssey design and, perhaps, perceived value.

Perhaps Klaus could offer a version with the internal speaker wiring extending outside the case and clamping to the binding posts?
For longevity and to maintain flat/even contact, a quality spade could be added to the exiting wire with little compromise. How about it Klaus?

Tyson

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Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #12 on: 7 Dec 2014, 02:12 am »
Another option is to remove the spades or bananas from the ends of your speaker wire and go bare, baby!  At the amp and at the speaker.  As long as you clamp it down pretty well, you will get a gas tight connection and not need to worry about oxidation.

tobes

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #13 on: 7 Dec 2014, 02:36 am »
Tyson, while removing spades/bananas might have a benefit it doesn't substitute for quality of the binding post (or taking out of the equation per above).
I am a little suspect of the contact evenness and long term tightness of bare wire connections - hence I prefer a quality spade.

BTW, just to be clear, the method Wind Chaser is talking about means using the binding post simply as a clamp between amp and speaker wiring - like this:


Wind Chaser

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #14 on: 7 Dec 2014, 02:53 am »
To maximize the payoff, do it at both ends; i.e. the speakers too. The difference in SQ is very real, more so than some costly tweaks which people rave about.

Tyson

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Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #15 on: 7 Dec 2014, 03:12 am »
Oh that's very interesting, I might have to give it a shot!  Thanks :)

Ric Schultz

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #16 on: 12 Dec 2014, 02:47 am »
Yes indeed!  I invented the "binding post bypass system" in the late 90s.  First shown on a Christian Ltd. speaker at the SF Stereophile show.  Have been pushing the method ever since.  Only in the last year or so has anyone finally taken this thing seriously.  However, at the speaker end I find that any extra metal in the connection is bad.  Another words, you do not want a metal clamp at the speaker end.  I recommend nylon or Teflon quarter inch bolts and nuts and washers.  Seems even having the passive/massive post at the speaker end acts like a non linear "Ground Dirtier".....the opposite of what the "Ground Enhancer" litz wire loops do. 

Tyson

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Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #17 on: 12 Dec 2014, 05:56 am »
Yes indeed!  I invented the "binding post bypass system" in the late 90s.  First shown on a Christian Ltd. speaker at the SF Stereophile show.  Have been pushing the method ever since.  Only in the last year or so has anyone finally taken this thing seriously.  However, at the speaker end I find that any extra metal in the connection is bad.  Another words, you do not want a metal clamp at the speaker end.  I recommend nylon or Teflon quarter inch bolts and nuts and washers.  Seems even having the passive/massive post at the speaker end acts like a non linear "Ground Dirtier".....the opposite of what the "Ground Enhancer" litz wire loops do. 

Seems like these would be good connectors at the amp end as well as the speaker end:




Wind Chaser

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #18 on: 12 Dec 2014, 06:40 am »
Yes indeed!  I invented the "binding post bypass system" in the late 90s... Only in the last year or so has anyone finally taken this thing seriously...

Really?

Ric Schultz

Re: Don't overlook the WBT silver binding posts
« Reply #19 on: 12 Dec 2014, 08:01 pm »
Really!  What don't you believe?

The Electra tube connector is good.  But not sonically as good as a clamped connection.  And you have to terminate your wire with their connector.  So, anyone with expensive speaker wires with spades will have to sell their cables or modify them (and who wants to modify their speaker wires so they lose all their resale value?).  Plus, you cannot have jumpers to other speaker inputs or mount speaker enhancers (Zobel's, Ground danglers, Synergistic goodies, etc.).  Not very practical and not totally transparent.  I would take a pair of silver WBTs any day over the Electra Tubes.
« Last Edit: 12 Dec 2014, 09:03 pm by Ric Schultz »